[I Love The Lounge]

Originally Posted by Tiresias 

I say that mods should be bannable. It's simple. Each user has an option to blackball a mod. They may only blackball a mod once. Once a mod receives a certain number of blackballs (say, 10, from 10 different users) that mod gets banned.

Don't you mean demoted?

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Tiresias 

I say that mods should be bannable. It's simple. Each user has an option to blackball a mod. They may only blackball a mod once. Once a mod receives a certain number of blackballs (say, 10, from 10 different users) that mod gets banned.

And in 20 minutes all of the mods would be banned. Either by a single member with 10 different nicks or people ganging up on the mods.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Not that I support the idea, but you could easily dodge that loophole by limiting voting to members of a certain post count or membership length.

[Person Man]

Huh? Was "I Love The Lounge" Kevin or something? Banninated.

[Dakar the Fourth]

I assumed cash

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

I assumed cash

From what I hear, Kevin is trying to organize other users to harass the MacNN forum staff now. So we can't automatically just assume Ca$h anymore.

Besides, not one of ILTL's posts was long enough to contain the posting/writing style information to enable us to easily/quickly determine one vs. other.

IP address information would make it much easier, but we mere mortals don't have access to that info.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

Besides, not one of ILTL's posts was long enough to contain the posting/writing style information to enable us to easily/quickly determine one vs. other.

I love a good mystery!

One of ILTL's posts used the word "silly". This would circumstantially point to Kevin.

[besson3c]

It will be amusing to see how far Kevin takes his little agenda of Kevinness... I don't understand why people don't catch themselves becoming so emotionally invested in something that is so pointless and non fulfilling. I mean, this is just a forum on the internet, and there are many others. I don't understand what fuels their fire ("their" including Cash) and makes all of this stuff they do worth their while. Then again, neither seemed capable of walking away from a conflict, so maybe this is exactly what is keeping them going.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

From what I hear, Kevin is trying to organize other users to harass the MacNN forum staff now. So we can't automatically just assume Ca$h anymore.

Why do you say that - has he contacted you or are you just passing on hearsay.

So far I've not seen or heard anything even remotely true about that.

As for the "I love the Lounge" dude, it seems more likely its ca$h.

AFAIK Kevin and RR are obeying the rules and are staying banned.

[ghporter]

I find subego's statement (implication?) that users were basically powerless to be very interesting. I think it's quite the opposite. We on the staff have a finite amount of time to spread across all the forums, while one user can (and has from time to time) barraged the forums with tripe, spam, porn, idiocy, and drivel. Which not only screws things up for the cooperative and pleasant users, but can put MacNN in a difficult position-even legal trouble. Which comes down to "one bad user can torpedo the whole place." That's power. It takes someone with more than a few screws lose and nothing else to do, but it's possible.

We pretty much agonized on what to do about Kevin and Railroader, because from time to time they went off the handle but seemed to be generally decent folks. When Kevin got his ban, he went ballistic, and tried to threaten us with all sorts of dire (and to some extent doable) consequences. What seemed to be his worst threat turned out to be more of a "ok, see how far it gets you" threat, so we seem to be pretty much clear of his antics. Person Man's point about some sort of organized harassment orchestrated by Kevin has a note of truth in it, and he even registered a new (ban evading) nick that was supposed to sound like one of Ca$h's. Didn't work, and he's gone forever. Railroader, on the other hand, has accepted his ban with grace (which seems to be his style anyway), and when it expires (pretty soon), he'll be welcomed back.

At worst, banning a misbehaving member slows them down enough to get them to think about their actions-we do NOT do it lightly. At best, it's a credible threat that makes mischievous members think twice before intentionally doing things they know they shouldn't. For the most part it works.

[reader50]

Just checked, it wasn't Cash or Kevin. A different ban evader. Railroader will be back in 20 days and 0 hours.

[besson3c]

Was it PacHead? KellyHogan? Mojo2?

[Timo]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

We pretty much agonized on what to do about Kevin and Railroader, because from time to time they went off the handle but seemed to be generally decent folks.

I gotta say, gh, that I find you in general one of the most level-headed guys I've met, in person or not. But this snipet doesn't make sense to me -- off the handle is one thing, decent folks is another thing; but neither are things you can really judge in this medium.

Perhaps I'm talking out of my ass, but the only way to really "judge" people here is by what they do, or do not do. The set up here, as elsewhere, is simple: rules are a priori, and you judge whether they are broken or not. Rules. Not the character of the poster behind them, because that's just speculation.

Good thing too, because were I to guess teh character behind those two monikers I doubt I could be very charitable.

Anyway, perhaps not a very useful comment, and a poor way of segueing into something I also feel, namely that you guys don't have an easy row to hoe, and I appreciate your posts and your moderation.

[Jawbone54]

[EDIT] All removed. Pointless.

I decided it's not worth expressing my opinion when I can't access all of the related information. I could go all anti-establishment with it and accuse the mods of overreacting, but I'm just going to have to trust them on Kevin's perma-ban.

I have to get out of the Feedback lounge quickly. This place creeps me out.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I find subego's statement (implication?) that users were basically powerless to be very interesting. I think it's quite the opposite. We on the staff have a finite amount of time to spread across all the forums, while one user can (and has from time to time) barraged the forums with tripe, spam, porn, idiocy, and drivel. Which not only screws things up for the cooperative and pleasant users, but can put MacNN in a difficult position-even legal trouble. Which comes down to "one bad user can torpedo the whole place." That's power. It takes someone with more than a few screws lose and nothing else to do, but it's possible.

Torpedo?

When did that happen, ever?

Seriously, I'd be interested in that purely as a student of foradynamics.


Edit: FWIW the above was actually an attempt not to be snarky, but upon reflection I realize it comes off as the opposite. Let me try and rephrase this more directly.

I don't see the ability to make a complete ass of yourself in public as "power", and I'm not sure who you think is holding you responsible for not having taken care of something you have yet to see (i.e. the only situation wherein something that "damages" the forum/experience is allowed to exist).

[analogika]

Well, it took only about two or three members to kill the Political Lounge.

[subego]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Well, it took only about two or three members to kill the Political Lounge.

This begs elaboration.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by subego 

I don't see the ability to make a complete ass of yourself in public as "power", and I'm not sure who you think is holding you responsible for not having taken care of something you have yet to see (i.e. the only situation wherein something that "damages" the forum/experience is allowed to exist).

Without writing a "how to destroy MacNN" primer, let me just say that if someone wanted to, they could choose a time when there weren't too many people online and then post damaging, illegal, or otherwise bad materials, then "report the site" to some authority or other. Fortunately this is kind of difficult to do because we have mods in a number of different timezones. But it could be damaging nonetheless, and making an ass of himself would be the least of the user's impacts.

Take for example a recently "self requested ban" user: as discussed above, he "got our attention" not by sending a PM or two, but by posting pictures featuring nudity. His pictures were shall we say "mild," but were still out of bounds, so we had to take action. If these had remained posted for a while, we might have gotten into trouble in certain jurisdictions. Not too far fetched, at least not in our lovely, litigious society.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

If these had remained posted for a while, we might have gotten into trouble in certain jurisdictions. Not too far fetched, at least not in our lovely, litigious society.

I'm working up a response, but I'd like a minor clarification.

How do you consider the length of time something offensive/illegal is on the board as relevant?

I mean, if that time is longer, is that a problem because it allows more opportunity for an unrelated party to see it, take offense, and report you to the authorities?

Or are you looking at this more in terms of the totally insane person who is trying to set you up using the length of time it remained online as evidence of your guilt?

[ghporter]

The length of time an offensive post is visible is directly proportional the the chance someone will see and be offended by it. Completely and utterly-nothing but "potential for offense." And yes, the whack job that wants to hurt MacNN (or any other site) could use this as a weapon. Of course since he is the one that posted it, and we can generally show who it was, that helps in our defense, but why put ourselves in that position?

I do not think that we could be held liable for a user's porn posts, for example, but we could be tied up with legal complications, and that would be expensive.

[turtle777]

Ok, so I tried to figure it out from reading this thread, but somehow I couldn't.

What did Kevin do to earn himself a perma-ban ?

Kill a mod ?
Rape the hampstor ?

-t

[Lateralus]

It's been explained at least two times.

[BlueSky]

I think said person honked and hissed or something.

[besson3c]

So, I've been thinking a lot about all of this drama and conspiracy and accounting for the fact that I don't know who anybody is, and after putting my thinking cap on for a while I came up with the following:

- Kevin = Rob (I've noticed that Rob isn't here anymore, and Kevin has been suspiciously acting like Rob)

- Kevin = abe (I've noticed that abe has been suspiciously absent too)

- Cody Dawg = Kelly Hogan (nobody seems to know who Cody Dawg is, but I noticed that Kelly is a girl's name, and I know that Cody Dawg was a woman)

- Blue Sky = Dork. (they are both quite pleasant and stay out of trouble)

- abe = PacHead

- ghporter = my old high school principal (always fair as a leader and easy to get along with)

- turtle = not really a turtle

- brassplayersrock = really a slide whistle major

- Chuckit = goMac (always smart about Mac things)

- CATS C.E.O. = also abe, my instincts just tell me this

[Lateralus]

You put together a drama list and I'm not on it?

[besson3c]

I haven't figured out who you are Lateralus. Who the hell are you anyway? Tell us about yourself, what you like, what you dislike, what you believe in, how tall you are, what you like to eat, whether you can dunk, etc. Until you do, you are just some moderator that calls him or herself Lateralus. For all I know, you could be abe.

In fact, just to be on the safe side, I'm going to go with:

- Lateralus = also abe

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

You put together a drama list and I'm not on it?

What he said. I’m deeply offended.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

- Cody Dawg = Kelly Hogan (nobody seems to know who Cody Dawg is, but I noticed that Kelly is a girl's name, and I know that Cody Dawg was a woman)

Cody Dawg is ♥, now here in her third incarnation.


[Cold Warrior]

Maybe that should be a sticky someplace — new handles for old users. At least for the ones who don't want anonymity.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

- Cody Dawg = Kelly Hogan (nobody seems to know who Cody Dawg is, but I noticed that Kelly is a girl's name, and I know that Cody Dawg was a woman)

Nope. Kelly can be a boy's name, too. KellyHogan definitely ≠ Cody Dawg.

[Oisín]

Nope. Kelly can be a boy's name, too.

I nearly had a, “Say what?” moment there, until I realised that my own father’s name is Kelly...

<-- at self

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

Cody Dawg is ♥, now here in her third incarnation.


I KNEW it! And it's out there, for everyone to see. Finally, one less thing Dakar can hold over my head.

[besson3c]

Hey mods, we really need an official mod sponsored/approved "who is who" thread where people can tell us who they are. I feel like I don't know anybody here, and I'm constantly confused into thinking that many people are abe.

P.S. are any mods actually abe?

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I KNEW it! And it's out there, for everyone to see. Finally, one less thing Dakar can hold over my head.

If this weren't Feedback, I'd make some vulgar remark about what I've left hanging over your head.

BTW, I'm pissed I won't be able to use my "I don't have the heart to ruin her anonymity" line in reference to her. It was gold, Jerry, gold!

[Oisín]

If this weren't Feedback, I'd make some vulgar remark about what I've left hanging over your head.

Glad to see I’m not the only one whose mind went there immediately.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Glad to see I’m not the only one whose mind went there immediately.

You'll never make Mod at this rate.

[Oisín]

Well, ‘this rate’ has been my standard rate for three and a half years here, now, so I doubt I was ever going to make Mod, then.

[Dork.]

You forgot:

besson3c : slightly above-average tuba player

And I can't be BlueSky, because I'm not nearly as cool as he is....

I am opposed to making a who's who thread, because then it would be too easy!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

If this weren't Feedback, I'd make some vulgar remark about what I've left hanging over your head.

BTW, I'm pissed I won't be able to use my "I don't have the heart to ruin her anonymity" line in reference to her. It was gold, Jerry, gold!

Your face is gold.

[Oisín]

Too much time in the solarium will do that to you.

[analogika]

That was "bronze".

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Blue Sky = Dork.

Originally Posted by Dork. 

And I can't be BlueSky, because I'm not nearly as cool as he is....

OK folks, after a bit of reflection I'm feeling a little guilty for using my other 'NN account to broadcast how cool I am. I so sorry.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by analogika 

That was "bronze".

I think it was at least worth a silver. I liked it!

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

If this weren't Feedback, I'd make some vulgar remark about what I've left hanging over your head.

BTW, I'm pissed I won't be able to use my "I don't have the heart to ruin her anonymity" line in reference to her. It was gold, Jerry, gold!

Absolutely cruel. But I'm actually laughing right now. Oh well. Time to go drink.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

The length of time an offensive post is visible is directly proportional the the chance someone will see and be offended by it. Completely and utterly-nothing but "potential for offense." And yes, the whack job that wants to hurt MacNN (or any other site) could use this as a weapon. Of course since he is the one that posted it, and we can generally show who it was, that helps in our defense, but why put ourselves in that position?

I do not think that we could be held liable for a user's porn posts, for example, but we could be tied up with legal complications, and that would be expensive.

Has this ever happened?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by subego 

Has this ever happened?

Only at PronNN

-t

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by subego 

Has this ever happened?

Not yet, and of course we work hard to prevent it. But it is theoretically possible for such events to begin and start some legal actions against MacNN. So we work to prevent it.

[vintage]

That really irks me. Kevin was a jerk, and liked to cause trouble, but he was here for a really really really long time. And now he's banned, forever and ever and ever?

What the hell? What if he wants to come back a few months from now? He can't? What about a year from now?

Banning in general is stupid. It's effectively silencing someone, which is wrong. Silencing someone who is upset is even more wrong. Unless they are spamming, threatening other members, scamming, or posting porn, I really don't see why anyone should ever be banned.

You just threw out one of the biggest personalities on this place. Congrats. RR is gone, Kevin is gone, Cash is gone.

You seem to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by vintage 

That really irks me. Kevin was a jerk, and liked to cause trouble, but he was here for a really really really long time. And now he's banned, forever and ever and ever?

What the hell? What if he wants to come back a few months from now? He can't? What about a year from now?

Banning in general is stupid. It's effectively silencing someone, which is wrong. Silencing someone who is upset is even more wrong. Unless they are spamming, threatening other members, scamming, or posting porn, I really don't see why anyone should ever be banned.

You just threw out one of the biggest personalities on this place. Congrats. RR is gone, Kevin is gone, Cash is gone.

You seem to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

For the record, Railroader got a temporary ban which will expire shortly. Kevin did too-and then he went stupidly ballistic and threatened users and staff members, so he bought his permanent ban. Cash never stayed stable long enough to be anything more than a nuisance in my tenure here (almost 7 years). We don't ban regular users (as in non-spammers) lightly. We took a lot of time-probably too much time-to decide that Kevin and Railroader were psyching each other into a froth any time they posted and that they needed to take some time off. When we gave them their temp bans, Railroader took it in an adult manner-he was not at all happy, but he apparently saw that it was best for the entire forum-but Kevin regressed to behavior that I'd class with a 3 year old and that's why he got the permanent ban.

We on the staff are not "of one mind" on much. That's intentional. We were not all recruited because we agreed on anything at all except that the MacNN Forums were important and needed our help to keep them running well. We frequently disagree about a lot of stuff, especially user behavior. One of us may say "User X is being a PITA, and I want to give him a two month ban," and others will chime in with "X is a pain right now, but look at his history; he's obviously having some sort of problem. Let's PM him and tell him to chill out a bit before we think about banning." That sort of thing goes back and forth until we come to a consensus (not an acclamation or necessarily a unanimous decision), and then we act. That's why it took a while to decide that the two users I mentioned previously needed a temporary ban-we had a lot to talk about.

So I'd suggest that you rethink "what if Kevin wants to come back in a few months." If he did, would he be a different person, with a personality that didn't get aggressive and nasty every now and then? We gave him LOTS of chances. He burned them up apparently without thinking about it.

[besson3c]

vintage: speaking only for my conflicts with Kevin, he also refused to ignore me, which resulted in a lot of strife between us over the course of many many months. I accept full blame and responsibility for my contribution to the problem, but in my defense, I did want to solve the problem.

My point for bringing this up is that the net effect of all of this resulted in a lot of baggage being dragged around from thread to thread, and I wasn't the only one that argued/bickered with him. The bubble eventually burst. Even though I wasn't really a direct part of the final blow that caused him to go ballistic, as ghporter put it, I'm sure I was a part of everything that led up to it.

I don't think there is much you can do about anybody (be it Kevin, Cash, or anybody else) with these sort of burstable bubbles that they refuse to not only maintain, but help stress by provoking and engaging in further conflict.