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freudling · Jun 20, 2011, 01:23 PM

Something not mentioned here. Apple's iCloud, as much as some might think it's all marketing, is another major blow to companies like RIM and MS trying to wrestle their way to the top of the mobile space.

It's all about the value equation, and Apple's just increased their value to consumers with iCloud that much more. Meanwhile, not only is RIM and MS having trouble competing on the software/hardware side, their content sucks, as in no iTunes, not many Apps, and, now, no unified cloud sync.

Spheric Harlot · Jun 20, 2011, 03:18 PM

Seesmic drops BlackBerry support to focus on iOS, Android

freudling · Jun 20, 2011, 03:50 PM

Sorry, I just think Balsillie is a dork. He rambles in this interview, and comes off as arrogant. Take note in the beginning... he says either RIM goes up or drops and dies, in response to the interviewer talking about where else could RIM be taken as a business.

YouTube - ‪Interview with BlackBerry co-CEO Jim Balsillie‬&rlm;

Lateralus · Jun 20, 2011, 03:54 PM

"In a note on its Web site, Seesmic said they were discontinuing “support for Blackberry in order to focus development efforts on our most popular mobile platforms: Android, iOS and Windows Phone 7.”

Ouch.

You know, as much as I may believe that RIM can still orchestrate a turnaround quickly enough to reverse their spiral... I also have this nagging feeling that the fate of BlackBerry is no longer in their hands; the market has been overcrowded with platforms for a while now, much to the chagrin of developers, and BB is the first major platform to show weakness...

Salty · Jun 20, 2011, 04:11 PM

BB has shown they don't care about developers. Incidentally now no developers need them. But customers like what developers do.

freudling · Jun 20, 2011, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Lateralus

"In a note on its Web site, Seesmic said they were discontinuing “support for Blackberry in order to focus development efforts on our most popular mobile platforms: Android, iOS and Windows Phone 7.”

Ouch.

You know, as much as I may believe that RIM can still orchestrate a turnaround quickly enough to reverse their spiral... I also have this nagging feeling that the fate of BlackBerry is no longer in their hands; the market has been overcrowded with platforms for a while now, much to the chagrin of developers, and BB is the first major platform to show weakness...

You've nailed it. BB is the weak antelope in the herd, and they're crumbling faster than the Canucks in Game 4.

People look at how much revenues they have but in the tech industry things change so damn fast that it doesn't matter. There's this overall feeling that RIM is simply being abandoned. That there is no way they can recover.

I spoke to some friends today at The National Research Council of Canada, the backbone of the tech industry in Canada, and they were all too aware of RIM.

RIM who?

Cold Warrior · Jun 20, 2011, 10:41 PM

In 5 years we could see RIM go the way of SCO — no products, just a litigating shell for its patent portfolio.

freudling · Jun 20, 2011, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior

In 5 years we could see RIM go the way of SCO — no products, just a litigating shell for its patent portfolio.

I'd say 2 years. Look at how fast Palm disappeared. RIM is in a very similar situation.

Brien · Jun 20, 2011, 11:54 PM

Maybe HP will snap them up too. Ho-ho.

P · Jun 21, 2011, 05:26 AM

The most likely suitor is still MS. MS is still impressed with RIM, and if they can get it for a bargain price, why not do it? They can make a line with keyboard phones called Blackberry and transition it to their own OS slowly, support BBM on more phones and basically just milk the name.

OreoCookie · Jun 21, 2011, 05:40 AM

Don't they have Nokia for that? Given the relationship and the presence of Nokia in non-US markets, that seems like the better option to me. I think the only thing (rather: person) holding MS back here is Steve Ballmer who is still in love with the (desktop) Windows business model, i. e. »we make the software other people make the hardware«.

Doc HM · Jun 21, 2011, 06:49 AM

And now O2 in the UK have announced they are not going to be selling the PlayBook, citing "end to end" user issues and calling the product "unfinished".

O2 blows out BlackBerry PlayBook | thinq_

Phileas · Jun 21, 2011, 07:02 AM

I do think that Ballmer is on his way out in the near future. It's becoming increasingly clear that he's all bluster, no substance and that his leadership, if indeed you can call it that, is putting MS at risk of becoming an irrelevant dinosaur.

The first public calls for his head have already been issued and I can only see that increase.

I also don't think that MS will pick up BB - as others have said, they've got Nokia for that. As a Canadian, and Ontarian, I am immensely saddened by what is happening to our tech industry. BB has been good to the Kitchener/Waterloo area and the university would not be what it is without them. But like others I don't think they'll survive the next five years without taking the kind of drastic action they've been, so far, incapable of.

P · Jun 21, 2011, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Phileas

I do think that Ballmer is on his way out in the near future. It's becoming increasingly clear that he's all bluster, no substance and that his leadership, if indeed you can call it that, is putting MS at risk of becoming an irrelevant dinosaur.

He'd be out already if Gates hadn't been on the board to protect him. Gates isn't going to stop doing that, so Ballmer is safe until Gates leaves.

Phileas · Jun 21, 2011, 07:47 AM

I have no idea why Gates is such a supporter. He has to see that Ballmer is running MS into the ground.

Personality wise, I've met Gates and he's polite, quiet, very pleasant. A nice, hyper intelligent guy. How he's friends with somebody like Ballmer, who's got the social skills of a bull in a china shop, escapes me.

Wiskedjak · Jun 21, 2011, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Don't they have Nokia for that?

Not if you're in the market for patents.

OreoCookie · Jun 21, 2011, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Phileas

I have no idea why Gates is such a supporter. He has to see that Ballmer is running MS into the ground.

Because they're friends, I think. To be honest, I am not sure to what degree Gates is `getting it' either, but Gates must understand that Ballmer no longer has the full support of the board. He had to personally strong-arm the other members to get them to agree to the Skype purchase.

Originally Posted by Phileas

Personality wise, I've met Gates and he's polite, quiet, very pleasant. A nice, hyper intelligent guy. How he's friends with somebody like Ballmer, who's got the social skills of a bull in a china shop, escapes me.

I'm not sure why they're friends, but when the two were augmenting each other (Gates = technology, Ballmer = `marketing'), Microsoft was growing -- also in new markets.

OreoCookie · Jun 21, 2011, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Not if you're in the market for patents.

That's a good point, but I guess Blackberry is still too expensive for that at this point.

Salty · Jun 21, 2011, 09:57 AM

I could see Microsoft buying RIM so that they could have a BUSINESS phone, and then have something totally different for consumers. At the same time though, BlackBerries are also really popular with certain developing markets and what not where people will jump on it for being a smart phone even if it's not terribly good. If MS did buy them, I could see them saying you can now have a BlackBerry with Windows ... and just have quick ports of office and what not for the platform and call it a day.

freudling · Jun 21, 2011, 10:25 AM

I doubt MS would buy RIM. Seems like a waste of money. The problem is their gear is antiquated garbage. They've got Nokia to make them innovative phones. RIM is really that bad that I think MS wouldn't even want them.

angelmb · Jun 21, 2011, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Phileas

Personality wise, I've met Gates and he's polite, quiet, very pleasant. A nice, hyper intelligent guy. How he's friends with somebody like Ballmer, who's got the social skills of a bull in a china shop, escapes me.

His personal site is always a nice read.

I have to wonder what the personal site –if there is such a thing– of Ballmer would look like. Suggestions?

Phileas · Jun 21, 2011, 01:28 PM

Love his site and writing. The comments however must make his eyes bleed.

Doc HM · Jun 21, 2011, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Phileas

Love his site and writing. The comments however must make his eyes bleed.

Gates seems to have a wide and varied hinterland. I can't imagine Ballmer having anywhere near this level of enquiring mind or widespread awareness.

Lateralus · Jun 21, 2011, 03:31 PM

Ballmer is one of the last remaining old guard buffoons in the industry, and Microsoft will be significantly better off as soon as he steps aside and allows somebody more perceptive and decisive to assume the throne.

I'm amazed the company has made the strides it has as of late with him at the helm. It makes you wonder how much more talent exists beneath the surface that is squelched by his mere presence.

freudling · Jun 22, 2011, 05:05 PM

CBC special on RIM, complete with Canadian accents like "abooot". Ha, we're crazy up here aren't we?

CBC.ca Player

Lateralus · Jun 22, 2011, 06:54 PM

Glad to see CBC video is viewable in the US now, it wasn't when last I checked.

I still think writing RIM off at this point is silly.

Salty · Jun 22, 2011, 09:30 PM

Please, MS bought Skype for 8.6 Billion. When their tech is OK but nothing Apple or even Microsoft themselves couldn't come up with. They essentially paid 8 billion for a user base that isn't profitable. Even if RIM was only making a slight profit at this point Microsoft would LOOOVE to be the ones who owned the BlackBerry name.

imitchellg5 · Jun 22, 2011, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by Salty

Please, MS bought Skype for 8.6 Billion. When their tech is OK but nothing Apple or even Microsoft themselves couldn't come up with. They essentially paid 8 billion for a user base that isn't profitable. Even if RIM was only making a slight profit at this point Microsoft would LOOOVE to be the ones who owned the BlackBerry name.

Why do you keep going on about Microsoft wanting RIM? You seem to forget that Windows Mobile used to be readily popular for the professional industry. Microsoft very intentionally created Windows Phone 7 as a consumer operating system, when they could have very easily made it into a macho business-based OS. Which is an intelligent decision IMO, because the consumer market still has a lot of room for differentiation, and Windows Phone 7 excels at differentiating itself from Android and iOS especially.

Salty · Jun 22, 2011, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

Why do you keep going on about Microsoft wanting RIM? You seem to forget that Windows Mobile used to be readily popular for the professional industry. Microsoft very intentionally created Windows Phone 7 as a consumer operating system, when they could have very easily made it into a macho business-based OS. Which is an intelligent decision IMO, because the consumer market still has a lot of room for differentiation, and Windows Phone 7 excels at differentiating itself from Android and iOS especially.

Because Microsoft still makes TONS of money from businesses, and it's their biggest strong hold against Apple. As far as Windows Mobile ever having ever been truly successful in the business market, it never was. They may have sold a decent number of phones, but it was never truly successful.

RIM's only major market left is the enterprise. Microsoft may not understand mobile terribly well, (WP7 is a good effort though, aside from my hatred of MS I'd probably pick it over Android) buying RIM would give them one line of products that could be kept quite distinct from their business offerings.

RIM's hardware isn't all that bad. They do somethings very well, like keyboards and the actual phone itself. (Call quality on a BlackBerry is still better than an iPhone last I checked) RIM isn't a worthless company, they're just being lead by people who don't know what they're doing. To be honest, I think the best company to save them would be Microsoft.

freudling · Jun 23, 2011, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by Salty

Because Microsoft still makes TONS of money from businesses, and it's their biggest strong hold against Apple. As far as Windows Mobile ever having ever been truly successful in the business market, it never was. They may have sold a decent number of phones, but it was never truly successful.

RIM's only major market left is the enterprise. Microsoft may not understand mobile terribly well, (WP7 is a good effort though, aside from my hatred of MS I'd probably pick it over Android) buying RIM would give them one line of products that could be kept quite distinct from their business offerings.

RIM's hardware isn't all that bad. They do somethings very well, like keyboards and the actual phone itself. (Call quality on a BlackBerry is still better than an iPhone last I checked) RIM isn't a worthless company, they're just being lead by people who don't know what they're doing. To be honest, I think the best company to save them would be Microsoft.

Jesus. Listen to yourself man. Nokia's phones are way better than RIM's. Check out the new N9. At least Nokia can do modern smartphones. MS doesn't need RIM's junk. RIM is dead.

Spheric Harlot · Jun 23, 2011, 01:18 AM

So buying RIM would get them one line of business products - running what?

Windows Phone 7?

Or keeping the huge back-end infrastructure (because MS has such an excellent track record of taking over others' tech infrastructure) that is a big part of why corporate is switching to iPhones? (I had a customer demonstrate opening a mail with an attached PDF on his Blackberry to me yesterday - what a nightmare.)

angelmb · Jun 23, 2011, 07:04 AM

Forbes doesn't think a RIM takeover is happening.

Research In Motion A Takeover Target? That’s Hard To Believe - Eric Savitz - The Tech Trade - Forbes

Phileas · Jun 23, 2011, 07:41 AM

I think Forbes has got it right. BB is more than just a handset and OS maker, the BB ecosystem comes with a huge, and proprietary, backend, a backend that is so old and inflexible that it is responsible for the Playbook's lack of native email.

What used to be a stregth is rapidly turning into a huge weakness. Nobody could call BB's handsets in any way cutting edge, so there goes that business. The OS is outdated, the backend, once their pride and joy, is irrelevant - worse even, it is stopping people from doing what they need to do. So what's left? Not much. They're dinosaurs, overtaken by pretty much anybody, even MS.

freudling · Jun 23, 2011, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Phileas

I think Forbes has got it right. BB is more than just a handset and OS maker, the BB ecosystem comes with a huge, and proprietary, backend, a backend that is so old and inflexible that it is responsible for the Playbook's lack of native email.

What used to be a stregth is rapidly turning into a huge weakness. Nobody could call BB's handsets in any way cutting edge, so there goes that business. The OS is outdated, the backend, once their pride and joy, is irrelevant - worse even, it is stopping people from doing what they need to do. So what's left? Not much. They're dinosaurs, overtaken by pretty much anybody, even MS.

imitchellg5 · Jun 23, 2011, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Salty

RIM's hardware isn't all that bad. They do somethings very well, like keyboards and the actual phone itself.

So they have a tiny niche. Nokia makes amazing hardware in every class, from the E6, which is embarrassingly high quality compared to the Bold, to the N8 and N9.

Salty · Jun 29, 2011, 03:00 AM

I was actually thinking today, yesterday, and HP makes a better buyer for RIM. They'd get a phone that is already bought by a huge portion of their market, and they'd already have a good OS to slap onto the hardware.

Spheric Harlot · Jun 29, 2011, 03:24 AM

RIM is of no interest to anybody. They're a fading giant, but since they're still generating profit (for now), they won't sell off for what their tech is actually worth (not much).

So they'll just run into the ground and close up shop, eventually, and somebody will snap up the patents, end of story.

freudling · Jun 29, 2011, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Salty

I was actually thinking today, yesterday, and HP makes a better buyer for RIM. They'd get a phone that is already bought by a huge portion of their market, and they'd already have a good OS to slap onto the hardware.

Oh my god you're not serious? This would be like a person buying 2 space ships for a trip to Mars...

HP just spent big bucks and bought Palm for webOS and the phones and tablet. They won't be buying anymore phone companies or mobile operating systems...

imitchellg5 · Jun 29, 2011, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Salty

I was actually thinking today, yesterday, and HP makes a better buyer for RIM. They'd get a phone that is already bought by a huge portion of their market, and they'd already have a good OS to slap onto the hardware.

Umm. The Pre 3 hardware is much more modern than the Torch. Unless you think that webOS would run well on a 500 MHz processor. Which I can assure you that it doesn't. Why do you think RIM has such great hardware? Their specs aren't even that competitive with the original iPhone, with the exception of the Bold 9900, which is MIA.

Phileas · Jun 29, 2011, 11:54 AM

RIM never had to sell on hardware. They sold on their secure email solution and the backend that comes with it. CTOs bought their product, not individual consumers and as a result the end user experience was secondary in importance.

All of this has of course changed and as a result BB is navigating extremely unfamiliar waters.

Spheric Harlot · Jun 29, 2011, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Phileas

RIM never had to sell on hardware. They sold on their secure email solution and the backend that comes with it. CTOs bought their product, not individual consumers and as a result the end user experience was secondary in importance.

All of this has of course changed and as a result BB is navigating extremely unfamiliar waters.

More than that: They don't actually have a product for those waters, as their entire business is built around the now increasingly worthless infrastructure.

Lateralus · Jun 29, 2011, 12:54 PM

^Fifthed...

Salty · Jun 29, 2011, 03:53 PM

I'm simply saying that HP already sells to RIM's major market. Therefore for a company to take them over, HP might make the most sense. They also already have a good OS so they wouldn't need to bother with QNX.

I'm not saying that RIM uses awesome processors, that's not the only hardware in the phone. Currently HP's physical keyboards are subpar by all accounts, where as RIM has the most devoted physical keyboard fans. The outsides of a Torch (with better screen) the insides of a Pre 3 or beyond, and you've actually got a not so bad phone.

Doc HM · Jun 29, 2011, 04:03 PM

Was talking today to a client who's daughter works at RIM. Apparently it's like a nightmare working there. Employees think it's jut a zombie company lurching towards it's doom.

And now it looks like the PlayBook is already dead.

Spheric Harlot · Jun 29, 2011, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Salty

I'm simply saying that HP already sells to RIM's major market. Therefore for a company to take them over, HP might make the most sense. They also already have a good OS so they wouldn't need to bother with QNX.

I'm not saying that RIM uses awesome processors, that's not the only hardware in the phone. Currently HP's physical keyboards are subpar by all accounts, where as RIM has the most devoted physical keyboard fans. The outsides of a Torch (with better screen) the insides of a Pre 3 or beyond, and you've actually got a not so bad phone.

So, HP should buy RIM for the name (which is synonymous with outdated backend architecture that upper management in a whole lot of companies is rallying their IT department to replace with iOS boxes) and for the outsides of the Torch.

Sounds like a deal.

I don't think RIM will want to sell the company for 45 dollars, though.

imitchellg5 · Jun 29, 2011, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Salty

I'm simply saying that HP already sells to RIM's major market. Therefore for a company to take them over, HP might make the most sense. They also already have a good OS so they wouldn't need to bother with QNX.

I'm not saying that RIM uses awesome processors, that's not the only hardware in the phone. Currently HP's physical keyboards are subpar by all accounts, where as RIM has the most devoted physical keyboard fans. The outsides of a Torch (with better screen) the insides of a Pre 3 or beyond, and you've actually got a not so bad phone.

What? Palm have had amazing physical keyboards. Remember the Treo? My Pre's keyboard is very good, I'd say about Blackberry Curve-level. The Pre 3 has the largest physical keyboard on the market (well, when it comes to market). But yet, we're still arguing a niche. People don't really care about a keyboard as much as they care about hardware and software that actually works for them, and unfortunately, RIM's devices don't do either. My girlfriend likes her Curve's keyboard, but it frustrates her to no end that the camera is crap, she can't download any decent games or apps, and she can't load pretty much any website. Keyboards aren't going to sell phones (and we are going to see that with the Pre 3 if it's delayed at all, since its specs are about middle-2010_.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 12:43 AM

Physical keyboards on multi-touch smartphones: like taping a typewriter to a bluetooth earpiece.

Salty · Jun 30, 2011, 03:00 AM

I don't know if the BlackBerry name still carries more weight than people here give it credit for.

Paco500 · Jun 30, 2011, 05:07 AM

My company, with very few exceptions, provides Blackberries for all employees in the UK. It's not an exaggeration to say that between 10-15% of employees put these Bkackberries in a drawer and use their personal iPhones (there are also a few android phones that know of, but very few).

I work for a Global company and almost every other region supports and provides iPhones. Everyone knows that when the very restrictive contract with Vodafone comes to an end, iPhones will be an option.

I wonder how many other companies there are like us? How much are RIM's numbers being inflated by phones that are bought, activated and then left in a drawer?

One might argue, so what? RIM still sold a phone and gets a license fee for doing nothing. But if my company is not too atypical, this stealth migration on Blackberries may really start to affect their bottom line in a dramatic fashion once existing contracts and licensing agreements start to end in the next year.

Phileas · Jun 30, 2011, 06:38 AM

When we grew from a small startup to a company with employees we asked them how they wanted to deal with phones. When we were just the founders, we never bothered with a landline and just used our cellphones, when we started employing people we asked what their preference was. Without exeption they told us that they didn't want a company issued phone and were happy to use their personal cellphone for business use, with us paying for any costs incurred.

The way people, especially young people, look at phones has changed drastically in recent years.