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zro · Nov 28, 2006, 02:10 AM

Try gluing your laser pointer to a joystick, see how accurate that is.

I don't have any lag where there isn't supposed to be any. I thought there was some because I notice the pointer/crosshair in Zelda trails the remote. It doesn't do that in the Wii menu (though there it seems to have sensitivity issues with the top of my TV being nearly 6 feet of the floor) and it does not do that in Rayman. My guess is there's anti-twitch in the software that Zelda uses more liberally than Rayman where the Wii system hardly uses it at all.

icruise · Nov 28, 2006, 02:11 AM

Ok, I made a video myself, since I had a laser pointer. I just used my digital camera, so the quality isn't great, but I think it gets the point across. I held the laser pointer right next to the Wiimote in my hand (to the right of the remote). You can see first of all that the location that the remote is pointing to on the TV is very different from where the actual pointer appears on the screen. And you can also see a healthy dose of lag. I don't think either of these make the control system unusable or anything, since you can adjust for the lag and the spacial displacement of the cursor relative to the remote, but to claim that there is no lag at all seems rather misguided.

http://homepage.mac.com/denkinews/im...es/wii_lag.mov

It does the same thing on the Wii menu, but the video I made of that is hard to see because of the white background.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by zro

Try gluing your laser pointer to a joystick, see how accurate that is.

I don't have any lag where there isn't supposed to be any. I thought there was some because I notice the pointer/crosshair in Zelda trails the remote. It doesn't do that in the Wii menu (though there it seems to have sensitivity issues with the top of my TV being nearly 6 feet of the floor) and it does not do that in Rayman. My guess is there's anti-twitch in the software that Zelda uses more liberally than Rayman where the Wii system hardly uses it at all.

I also said it is worse in Zelda than the Wii menu but it is still there for sure. As is the inaccuracy.

starman · Nov 28, 2006, 02:13 AM

That's exactly what I saw with Excite Truck.

Jawbone54 · Nov 28, 2006, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by starman

That's exactly what I saw with Excite Truck.

Excite Truck has always looked "jerky" to me in demo videos. I haven't played it yet, so I'm not sure if that's just a lack of familiarity with the controls, but it doesn't seem like it. It seems to be hard to keep the trucks aligned straight with the road.

icruise · Nov 28, 2006, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by starman

That's exactly what I saw with Excite Truck.

I've never played Excite Truck, but it uses a totally different control mechanism (motion control via bluetooth vs. IR) so I wouldn't be too quick to draw comparisons there.

starman · Nov 28, 2006, 02:19 AM

I meant the lag - the time between when I moved the control and when you saw it happen on screen.

smacintush · Nov 28, 2006, 02:20 AM

So, without the "lag" wouldn't it be awfully jerky? Seems like it would be hard to aim with the Wiimote responding to your hand in real time. I see this as sort of like the steady cam effect on a video camera.

Jawbone54 · Nov 28, 2006, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

I've never played Excite Truck, but it uses a totally different control mechanism (motion control via bluetooth vs. IR) so I wouldn't be too quick to draw comparisons there.

Not drawing comparisons. Unrelated curiosity.

Dakar² · Nov 28, 2006, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Here's something I wanted to add really quick about Madden for Wii. I like it. I really do, BUT after a week of messing around with it, I've discovered that it is definitely not my preferred method of playing sports games. It's a novel idea, and one that might just not be fully developed yet, but I'm not totally sold on this first outing. I'll definitely give future sports games a chance, but I'm already considering trading Madden in.

Surprise, surprise.

Chuckit · Nov 28, 2006, 02:44 AM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Excite Truck has always looked "jerky" to me in demo videos. I haven't played it yet, so I'm not sure if that's just a lack of familiarity with the controls, but it doesn't seem like it. It seems to be hard to keep the trucks aligned straight with the road.

It is, but I don't think it's lag. The turning just isn't calibrated the way you think it is. It seems to respond immediately, but the actual action of turning is just really slow. That's how it felt to me.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

http://homepage.mac.com/denkinews/im...es/wii_lag.mov

That is exactly how mine acts and looks. That rules out something wrong at my house.

The lag in zelda i find incredibly distracting.

TETENAL · Nov 28, 2006, 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

Ok, I made a video myself, since I had a laser pointer.

Thanks a lot! The lag looks pretty bad actually. I would imagine it makes first person shooters unplayable.

Originally Posted by smacintush

So, without the "lag" wouldn't it be awfully jerky? Seems like it would be hard to aim with the Wiimote responding to your hand in real time. I see this as sort of like the steady cam effect on a video camera.

The laser point doesn't look jerky. Soft controls simply are not a feature.

Obviously I haven't seen a Wii yet, but from the discussion I see 3 problems with the controller:

1) The cursor is offset to what you point to.
2) The control is only accurate when pointing towards the screen, otherwise they are pretty vague which makes it unsuitable for racing games.
3) The control is unresponsive and soft.

goMac · Nov 28, 2006, 03:10 AM

I still haven't seen lag like that. I just walked right in front of my TV and pointed at the screen and got no lag. Fairy followed my Wiimote exactly.

icruise · Nov 28, 2006, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Thanks a lot! The lag looks pretty bad actually. I would imagine it makes first person shooters unplayable.

Not unplayable, but it's certainly not as good as some people had hoped. And I must say that you don't notice it nearly as much when you are actually playing a game. The shooter levels in Rayman aren't too bad, but I really hate Red Steel (not just for this issue, though).

2) The control is only accurate when pointing towards the screen, otherwise they are pretty vague which makes it unsuitable for racing games.

Again, racing games would not make use of the IR "pointer" at all. They use the motion sensing capabilities of the remote. Whether there is lag in that as well I can't really tell yet -- not with the games that I have.

Originally Posted by goMac

I still haven't seen lag like that. I just walked right in front of my TV and pointed at the screen and got no lag. Fairy followed my Wiimote exactly.

There are a couple of possible explanations for this (and neither of them have to do with interference IMHO). One is that you are just not seeing the lag. I didn't realize that it was so pronounced until I made that video. I do see it in the game, but it doesn't seem that bad when you're actually playing. You might try doing something similar using a laser pointer or pocket flashlight and see if you notice it.

It's also possible that using a 32" SD TV simply makes the lag less noticeable. SWG and I are both on 50" TVs and the Wii does not take into account TV size in any way.

TETENAL · Nov 28, 2006, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

Again, racing games would not make use of the IR "pointer" at all. They use the motion sensing capabilities of the remote.

I know this, and actually that was my point. The remote is only precise when pointing towards the screen (IR lights). If not it only measures acceleration. Even if it did so 100% exact it could not distinguish between position (acceleration by gravitation) and motion (acceleration by that). For racing games this must be horrible.

icruise · Nov 28, 2006, 05:31 AM

Well, it does measure tilt as well as motion so I think it's reasonably good for controlling racing games, as long as the lag is not a problem.

Hawkeye_a · Nov 28, 2006, 06:30 AM

icruise.... just watched your video with the laser pointer.

Comments:
-dont know if any of you noticed, but as soon as the pointer started moving in the opposite direction, so did the cursor on the screen. that was "instant".
-the laser pointer moved a small distance causing the cursor to move half way across the screen.

This seems more of a "spped" issue of the cursor than the aactual "lag". "lag" accoring to my understanding of the word would be.... the difference in time between when the laser started moving to when the cursor started moving.

Think of it as a mouse for a minute. lag would be there if you move the mouse and it takes some time to actually move the cursor. What seems to be happening is what happens when you change the "speed" of the cursor on the scrren on your computer. if you make it faster, doesnt mean there less "lag", it just means the cursor will move a larger distance when the mouse is moved a little. So, what would recify the Wii-cursor would be a calibration screen/preference that says..if you move the wiimote this distance, the cursor needs to move so-n-so distance. thats all.

Having said that, seeing as how the distance between the mouse(ie wiimote) and mouse pad(ie sensor bar) and the size of the screen are not in fact constants, i would suspect that changing any one of the above variables will yield different "sensitivities", just cause of the nature of this technology.

You have to find an optimum distance between the TV, for the size of the TV you have, or be able to edit the sensitivity of the cursor on the screen..... they should make this sensitivity setting a Wii-preference as opposed to a game-specific preference.

All said...i do still want to try it out before i buy it. if it seems too cumbersome and slow.... ill pass up the Wii.

Cheers

starman · Nov 28, 2006, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

icruise.... just watched your video with the laser pointer.

Comments:
-dont know if any of you noticed, but as soon as the pointer started moving in the opposite direction, so did the cursor on the screen. that was "instant".

Wrong. If you look at it frame-by-frame there's definite lag.

Dakar² · Nov 28, 2006, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by starman

If you look at it frame-by-frame

We've been reduced to watching clips of the Wii in action like we watch porn clips?

starman · Nov 28, 2006, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

We've been reduced to watching clips of the Wii in action like we watch porn clips?

Way too much personal info there, dude

Dakar² · Nov 28, 2006, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by starman

Way too much personal info there, dude

Sports, I said sports.

MindFad · Nov 28, 2006, 10:05 AM

It's probably worth noting that the Zelda that the responsiveness of the cursor on the Zelda menu is different—"laggier"—from when you are using it in-game for aiming. It's more the speed of the cursor is slower on the Zelda menu and not "lagging" behind. In-game, it's no less responsive for aiming as it is on the Wii Menu (fluid, instantaneous 60 FPS), except capped at 30 FPS, of course, which Zelda is. But again, no less responsive as it seems to be on the Zelda menu screen. This, of course, has no bearing on gameplay at all, as you don't play Zelda by playing with cursors on the menu screen, but that certainly won't stop the moaning about it, so this paragraph is pretty pointless.

Another thing to remember or ignore is that the remote is a freehand mouse. You're not holding this thing to your eye and looking down its shiny surface like a gun. You realize when you first turn the Wii on that that's exactly what it is. This isn't Duck Hunt with a remote—it's, like I said, a freehand mouse, relative to how to tilt and turn your remote. It's very fluid and comfy, and it really only takes minor gestures to play Zelda. But it's surprisingly natural. While it doesn't take sweeping gestures and swings to play, I find myself doing that anyway because you get so into it during particular battles. And no, it's not a workout. It's literally wrist gestures and not arm movements. But you can fully immerse yourself with the arm movements if you want! It's a an input device that's fresh and fun to use. Simple as that.

Back to Zelda with me.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

I still haven't seen lag like that. I just walked right in front of my TV and pointed at the screen and got no lag. Fairy followed my Wiimote exactly.

a) You don't see the lag
b) If you saw it you still wouldn't admit there is a lag
c) You would say it was within spec and it doesn't effect gameplay in anyway.

MindFad · Nov 28, 2006, 10:14 AM

There Is No Lag.

The Speed Of The Cursor On The Zelda Menu Is Slower Than In-game. The Goddamn Fairy Does Not Lag.

The Zelda Menu Is Not A Game, Thus It Not Mattering If The Speed Of The Cursor Is Slower Than In-game Aiming With Slingshot And/or Bow.

If Your Wii Is Lagging, Kill Yourself. Or Take It Back To Wal-mart.

[/intended caps lock]

zro · Nov 28, 2006, 10:38 AM

It's way more accurate for shooting than a joystick. Put more simply, it's only as inaccurate as you are.

There's no lag in Excite Truck. Again, I don't think the remote is lagging at all. I think it's intentional in the software.

MindFad · Nov 28, 2006, 10:54 AM

I made a Wii Lagz0rz movie.

We're looking at what, 1/30 of a second for the cursor to respond and track hard movements at the end of the video there? Well, I'm certainly taking mine back to Best Buy.

Nintendo's end is nigh.

starman · Nov 28, 2006, 11:12 AM

/sigh

I don't understand why there are so many differences.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by MindFad

I made a Wii Lagz0rz movie.

We're looking at what, 1/30 of a second for the cursor to respond and track hard movements at the end of the video there? Well, I'm certainly taking mine back to Best Buy.

Nintendo's end is nigh.

Your TV is tiny and not even what the average house has. Even though you can see the accuracy is way off still.

Dakar² · Nov 28, 2006, 11:16 AM

What's 'average'?

Hawkeye_a · Nov 28, 2006, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by MindFad

I made a Wii Lagz0rz movie.

We're looking at what, 1/30 of a second for the cursor to respond and track hard movements at the end of the video there? Well, I'm certainly taking mine back to Best Buy.

Nintendo's end is nigh.

That looks perfectly acceptable to me. i'm confused. could the "slow" cursor in that menu-thing posted earlier be intentional ? or does the size of TV and distance from thr TV actually make a difference ?

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by MindFad

There Is No Lag.

The Speed Of The Cursor On The Zelda Menu Is Slower Than In-game. The Goddamn Fairy Does Not Lag.

The Zelda Menu Is Not A Game, Thus It Not Mattering If The Speed Of The Cursor Is Slower Than In-game Aiming With Slingshot And/or Bow.

No the game also lags not just the menues. I can do the same demo with arrow or boomerang aiming.

And it does matter. I find myself preparing the remote before I want to use the cursor for aiming by making sure it is pointed directly at the TV so it doesn't lose its small line of sight. Even then I still feel this bad drift/lag when trying to aim for something like the water-hose analogy I used earlier. The lag doesn't make things easier in any way.

zerostar · Nov 28, 2006, 11:55 AM

Would it be better if the sensor was the full width of the TV? I wonder if that would make it track more accurately since on a small TV it seems perfectly fine... Mine is 36" Tube so I should be OK until we spring for the HD set :-)

Perhaps try the 2 candles and try different spacing and see if that helps? If it does perhaps we can mod the IR transmitter to different TV sizes?

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by zerostar

Would it be better if the sensor was the full width of the TV? I wonder if that would make it track more accurately since on a small TV it seems perfectly fine... Mine is 36" Tube so I should be OK until we spring for the HD set :-)

Perhaps try the 2 candles and try different spacing and see if that helps? If it does perhaps we can mod the IR transmitter to different TV sizes?

I think the configuration is more of the problem. The Wii doesn't ask you specific questions to get a good idea of your set up.

As for the lag... I don't know what causes that.

zerostar · Nov 28, 2006, 12:09 PM

Iw as just thinking that the 2 points are like what a foot apart so they take into consideration that the movement is X% if they were apart 80% the width of your TV width perhaps the speed would be more accurate and thus less lag, if the lag was as minute as Mindfad's is on your big TV I am sure it would be much more enjoyable... Do you have 2 tea candles you can try it out jut for shits?

Also, Have you tried speeding the cursor up in the Zelda settings?

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by zerostar

Have you tried speeding the cursor up in the Zelda settings?

What you mean?

MindFad · Nov 28, 2006, 12:11 PM

I'm experiencing none of this mythical in-game fairy lag when aiming or otherwise. I'm pulling off moves quickly and precisely with no problem, things one could never pull of as fast with a standard controller, so maybe I'm just awesome at this new interface. Have you tried the cursor settings in Zelda? I am seeing the decreased cursor speed on Zelda menus, but again it's neither here nor there because ... it's a menu; they probably slowed the tracking on menus to make it easier to focus on buttons? Who knows? I mean, it's there, I see it, but it doesn't affect anything because there's nothing to be affected.

Once again, it's a freehand freakin' mouse, controlled by the relative gestures you make with your hand. Like ... a mouse on a mouse pad! I'm experiencing no "way off" accuracy. The point of me shooting the video on top of the remote was to show that there is no movement lag. Also note, it was shot at about a 30-degree angle in relation to the censor bar. I've also played this on my friend's 30"+ Sony flat screen (standard, though), and I noticed nothing different.

Also instantaneous is the controller orientation data (which is what, Bluetooth, some kind of wireless?), which is demonstrated in the Wii Sports Boxing.

Calimus · Nov 28, 2006, 12:48 PM

There is a definite difference in "speed" from the Wii main menus, and the Zelda menus( I just bought Zelda last night, awesome game so far!). To me it does look like the "steady cam" effect mentioned above. I've read some technical specs on the IR sensor in the Wiimote and it refreshes 200 times a second which should be plenty for smooth, responsive movement. I think if they did a 1:1 with the hand motion data, it would be much shakier and hard to use. Think of shooting video with a camera, when you zoom in very small movements jump the image by quite a bit, if you have digital image stabilization, you get a less jerky image, and physical image stabilization gives even better results.

In any case, this is the explanation I would go with for the difference in response time. I think the main frustration seems to be people thinking it works like a laser pointer(1:1 with hand motion) where it is intended to work as a mouse with the scale/direction of your movements not necessarily corresponding 1:1 with the tv size/position. Hopefully we'll see games offering better/refined calibration schemes to make the experience as customizable as possible for each users tastes.

Calimus · Nov 28, 2006, 12:49 PM

"mythical in-game fairy lag"

This is my 'phrase of the day'.

MindFad · Nov 28, 2006, 01:09 PM

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Calimus

"mythical in-game fairy lag"

This is my 'phrase of the day'.

Ha, that's pretty good.

itai195 · Nov 28, 2006, 01:22 PM

I haven't noticed any lag that's affecting my enjoyment of the console. Seriously, people will find anything to complain about...

Personally I'm much more concerned that my cats will chew through that flimsy sensor bar cord. It's thinner than a 360 headset cord and they've eaten like 3 of those

icruise · Nov 28, 2006, 01:48 PM

A few points: I only took the video on that particular part of the Zelda menu because it had a black background and allowed you to see the laser pointer more easily. If you really want me to, I can take it anywhere else and show you that. There IS lag everywhere in the Wii interface, but it does seem to differ depending on the game. I was making Miis last night and I noticed that the cursor was a lot snappier -- but still nowhere near instantaneous movement.

I'm not bashing the Wii and frankly I'm a little annoyed by the knee-jerk reactions of some people here. I'm not saying that the lag makes the system unplayable or anything. I'm not even really complaining about it. The only reason I'm really making an issue of it is that some people are so insistent that the lag doesn't exist. Well, it does.

Oh and Mindfad -- is that a 10" TV or what?

MindFad · Nov 28, 2006, 01:53 PM

13"

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by MindFad

13"

I'm not surprised you can't see the lag as just finding the TV at all must be a challenge.

How can you think you can measure lag when the cross-hairs move 10 inches from side to side?

Dakar² · Nov 28, 2006, 02:19 PM

Hehehehe

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

A few points: I only took the video on that particular part of the Zelda menu because it had a black background and allowed you to see the laser pointer more easily. If you really want me to, I can take it anywhere else and show you that. There IS lag everywhere in the Wii interface, but it does seem to differ depending on the game. I was making Miis last night and I noticed that the cursor was a lot snappier -- but still nowhere near instantaneous movement.

I'm not bashing the Wii and frankly I'm a little annoyed by the knee-jerk reactions of some people here. I'm not saying that the lag makes the system unplayable or anything. I'm not even really complaining about it. The only reason I'm really making an issue of it is that some people are so insistent that the lag doesn't exist. Well, it does.

Oh and Mindfad -- is that a 10" TV or what?

Exactly. I see the lag in the Wii start screen or wii sports also. ARS also mentioned there is a slight lag but didn't go into detail.

Go Mac's and Mindfads reactions are typical and expected. Anything negative they go fanboy on your ass where I have as objective opinions on the PS3 and Xbox also.

In the Wii menus the lag doesn't bother me but it does make Zelda harder to control no doubt about it.

goMac · Nov 28, 2006, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Go Mac's and Mindfads reactions are typical and expected. Anything negative they go fanboy on your ass where I have as objective opinions on the PS3 and Xbox also.

We're not the only ones saying there is no lag.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

We're not the only ones saying there is no lag.

oh right your 8 friends who played this weekend.

Ok if there is no lag how do you explain my problem and the video of someone elses wii lagging just the same? Defect Wii's? Beta units?

jokell82 · Nov 28, 2006, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Exactly. I see the lag in the Wii start screen or wii sports also. ARS also mentioned there is a slight lag but didn't go into detail.

Go Mac's and Mindfads reactions are typical and expected. Anything negative they go fanboy on your ass where I have as objective opinions on the PS3 and Xbox also.

In the Wii menus the lag doesn't bother me but it does make Zelda harder to control no doubt about it.

I wont dispute the fact that there is lag, but I find it impossible to notice in Zelda except for at that menu. The fairy pointer seems a LOT more responsive, to the point that I wouldn't have even noticed a lag at all until it was pointed out to me.