Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

goMac · Nov 28, 2006, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

oh right your 8 friends who played this weekend.

Ok if there is no lag how do you explain my problem and the video of someone elses wii lagging just the same? Defect Wii's? Beta units?

Do you read this thread, or just hit the reply button when you feel like some Wii-bashing?

Millennium · Nov 28, 2006, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Warning. Big nasty zelda bug:

YouTube - Zelda: Twilight Princess Glitch

Not as nasty as it sounds, because it turns out that the bug does not prevent you from progressing. There is certainly a bug -the guy's model doesn't load, so he's invisible- but he's still there, you can still talk to him, and when you do he will allow you to leave.

Apparently a similar situation has been found at one other point in the game, but it can be dealt with in the same way. So no, SWG, much as I'm sure you'd love for there to be some big blot on the Wii's launch, this doesn't qualify.

MindFad · Nov 28, 2006, 02:56 PM

And we come full circle. Again. Disagreement is never just that. You need to find something that you think is even remotely adverse or negative and exaggerate it, and then apply exactly how you act to everyone disagreeing with you. I'm sure there's some debate term for that, but I always come back to just "moron."

If you'd actually read my posts (you've brought a few points after I've already addressed them), you'd notice I mentioned about the TV size, too. There's no difference. Milliseconds of cursor tracking lag. The tracking is so precise and responsiveness when aiming, I don't see what you're talking about, and I've used multiple TVs. The size of the television has nothing to do with this supposed lag. You can set the sensitivity in the Wii settings if you have a larger TV anyway. And to define this magical lag, you're talking about just Zelda? What is lagging for everyone exactly? Because when I'm aiming (sligshot/bow), the tracking is practically instantaneous.

The only gameplay situation that would presumably cause there to be milliseconds of "cursor catchup" would be if I had to swing the cursor all the way from one corner to another, but even then, again, the tracking is so tight it wouldn't affecting how I played or the ease of aiming. Which is why I'm calling moronic moaning and bitching for the sake of bitching on the usual bitchers. Of course, my disagreement can only mean that I have some binding mental allegiance to all that is Nintendo, and could never truly enjoy anything they create without this mental leech. I could never just disagree or fail to share someone else's ranting sentiment.

You're arguing and bitching about ****ing video games.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Millennium

Not as nasty as it sounds, because it turns out that the bug does not prevent you from progressing. There is certainly a bug -the guy's model doesn't load, so he's invisible- but he's still there, you can still talk to him, and when you do he will allow you to leave.

Apparently a similar situation has been found at one other point in the game, but it can be dealt with in the same way. So no, SWG, much as I'm sure you'd love for there to be some big blot on the Wii's launch, this doesn't qualify.

I would LOVE?
I would LOVE to be wrong. I own a Wii and Zelda and you think I would be happier about a bug to say burn on Wii launch?

Big bug or not it is still a bug and I was posting it asking if Wii games can be patched which even after your long winded reply you didn't answer the question but sidestepped the issue.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Do you read this thread, or just hit the reply button when you feel like some Wii-bashing?

Do you read people posts and reviews that mention lag or do you just hit your standard "No it doesn't" button?

zerostar · Nov 28, 2006, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Do you read people posts and reviews that mention lag or do you just hit your standard "No it doesn't" button?

YOUR SUCH A LIAR!!! I don't have a "No it doesn't" button, and Neither do you. Post a screen shot of this supposed button, cause mine is working perfectly! and when I hit submit there is ZERO lag.

Calimus · Nov 28, 2006, 03:17 PM

Has anyone done much with the Mii/Travel stuff? Do you have to have people friended to have Miis show up in your "parade" mode? How does it work when you have multiple controllers, does the system remember which Mii was last played with on each controller in Wii sports? I haven't been able to find a second controller yet.

icruise · Nov 28, 2006, 03:23 PM

I think if you will read my previous posts in this thread you will see that if anything I am prone to defend Nintendo. I hate it when people complain about stupid things and jump to conclusions based on flimsy (or no) evidence just because it supports their pre-existing biases. But damn... Did you not see that video? Are you calling me a liar? Forget for a minute that SWG is agreeing with me (and believe me, I'm not that comfortable with the situation) and ask yourself if you're being completely honest with yourself. Even if you don't see any lag, does that mean that it doesn't exist for other people? I would love for the cursor to move instantaneously, but that sure isn't what I see.

zro · Nov 28, 2006, 03:40 PM

Moving instantaneously would mean with every movement no matter how slight. Having a twitching reticule would drive me bonkers. Not sure why anyone would want that.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

I think if you will read my previous posts in this thread you will see that if anything I am prone to defend Nintendo. I hate it when people complain about stupid things and jump to conclusions based on flimsy (or no) evidence just because it supports their pre-existing biases.

On that note in my Zelda and Wii review did I make any comments that are unreasonable? I thought I gave it plenty of positive comments and even brushed off 2 defects in one unit where if it was a PS3 with problem some people here would be gloating their asses off.

Somehow I have become enemy #1 with the fanboys even after buying the Wii and having the nerve to mention the controller is inaccurate and lags. If it was a lie that is one thing but your video shows exactly the same lag mine does.

zro · Nov 28, 2006, 03:49 PM

Once again, the controller is as inaccurate as you are. It's a poor musician who blames his instrument.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by zro

Once again, the controller is as inaccurate as you are. It's a poor musician who blames his instrument.

Riiight. Just like the Slate story that said the same thing about lag and inaccuracy and the boys here said he had a pre-production Wii and he just sucked at playing.

Chuckit · Nov 28, 2006, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Riiight. Just like the Slate story that said the same thing about lag and inaccuracy and the boys here said he had a pre-production Wii and he just sucked at playing.

Actually, he was just whining about how he sucked at playing. His complaints weren't facts — it was just "I think I'm a really good player, but I kept dying!"

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Actually, he was just whining about how he sucked at playing. His complaints weren't facts — it was just "I think I'm a really good player, but I kept dying!"

So I imagined the comments about lag and acuraccy?

How does one make something "Fact" on this matter as our lag accounts and video's don't seem to help convince some people.

Calimus · Nov 28, 2006, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

So I imagined the comments about lag and acuraccy?

How does one make something "Fact" on this matter as our lag accounts and video's don't seem to help convince some people.

I think it's evident that it is a issue of personal preference at this point. I don't think anyone is disputing that there is a varying amount of lag depending on the game/setting. Some people didn't notice it. Some people noticed it but were perfectly happy with the response. Some noticed it and think it's an issue.

It's like the old crt 60hz thing. I can't stand looking at a monitor below 60hz, I had friends who said 72hz wasn't fast enough, and yet I would often go to fix people's computer and would get a headache because their refresh was set so low. When I would mention it they wouldn't see the issue.

goMac · Nov 28, 2006, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by zro

Moving instantaneously would mean with every movement no matter how slight. Having a twitching reticule would drive me bonkers. Not sure why anyone would want that.

Exactly, it's possible some games are building a movement buffer in order to "smooth" the movement out. The lower the sensitivity, the larger the buffer. On very large TV's this may be more noticeable.

But it's not a hardware issue.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

But it's not a hardware issue.

How do you know that? You don't. Neither do I. Yesterday you claimed it was a hardware issues with interference. All I know is there is a lag and with no universal control panel for the Wii it won't be patchable for games already shipped.

Chuckit · Nov 28, 2006, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

How do you know that? You don't. Neither do I. Yesterday you claimed it was a hardware issues with interference. All I know is there is a lag and with no universal control panel for the Wii it won't be patchable for games already shipped.

If the hardware updates its position 200 times a second, it seems safe to say that there's no lag issue inherent in the hardware.

brokenjago · Nov 28, 2006, 06:05 PM

Where did we get this 200/second number?

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

If the hardware updates its position 200 times a second, it seems safe to say that there's no lag issue inherent in the hardware.

Well the small vewing angle is.

But ok lets say it is purely software. Since the experts here can conclusively say it isn't a hardware problem and even know how many times the remote re-freshs... can Wii games be patched? Yes or no?

::maroma:: · Nov 28, 2006, 06:21 PM

Longest...winded...thread...ever!

I want a Wii and came here to try to see if there was any good advice or reviews. Damn what a waste of my time.

I hope no one bitches about people starting new Wii threads. Because this one is bloated and out of control.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by ::maroma::

I want a Wii and came here to try to see if there was any good advice or reviews. Damn what a waste of my time.

Funny thing is I was the only one here to review the Wii and Zelda and I still haven't commented on the out of box experience or WiiConnect.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

But it's not a hardware issue.

"I love Nintendo's new system, but I really wish the company put a little more thought into perfecting the technology. I'm speaking specifically about the Wii sensor bar. It's kind of stupid. Not only is the bar out of place in any entertainment center, but it ceases to work correctly if you happen to be sitting more than seven or eight feet away. Seriously, what the eff is up with that? "

From the editor of IGN Wii.

::maroma:: · Nov 28, 2006, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Funny thing is I was the only one here to review the Wii and Zelda and I still haven't commented on the out of box experience or WiiConnect.

What page would your review be on? I really don't have the patience to sift through this pile of poop to find a relevant post.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by ::maroma::

What page would your review be on? I really don't have the patience to sift through this pile of poop to find a relevant post.

Hardware review:
http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...ntendo-wii/31/

Zelda Review:
http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...ntendo-wii/30/

Just look for the long posts.

Calimus · Nov 28, 2006, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by brokenjago

Where did we get this 200/second number?

I read the 200 updates/second somewhere. I thought it was one of the more technical reviews(ars technica, or another similar site), but am not finding it yet. I know for sure one of the interviews with miyamoto or iwata, they mentioned that specific issue and that they had to make the sensor faster because the cursor movement was too jerky.

::maroma:: · Nov 28, 2006, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Hardware review:
http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...ntendo-wii/31/

Zelda Review:
http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...ntendo-wii/30/

Just look for the long posts.

Thanks... finally some substance up in here!

Millennium · Nov 28, 2006, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Well the small vewing angle is.

But ok lets say it is purely software. Since the experts here can conclusively say it isn't a hardware problem and even know how many times the remote re-freshs... can Wii games be patched? Yes or no?

The patches would have to be stored in the Wii's memory or on an SD card (similar to how they'd have to be stored on the hard drive in the PS3 or XBox systems). But other than that, I don't see any reason they wouldn't be updatable.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Millennium

The patches would have to be stored in the Wii's memory or on an SD card (similar to how they'd have to be stored on the hard drive in the PS3 or XBox systems). But other than that, I don't see any reason they wouldn't be updatable.

Good in that case I hope the following happens.

1) Nintendo updates the Wii ROM to include more accurate remote calibration.
2) Games can use the universal setting and you don't have to set it for each game if at all.
3) Nintendo gets the memo about the Zelda bug and hasn't sent the gamecube version to the press yet.

goMac · Nov 28, 2006, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Millennium

The patches would have to be stored in the Wii's memory or on an SD card (similar to how they'd have to be stored on the hard drive in the PS3 or XBox systems). But other than that, I don't see any reason they wouldn't be updatable.

I'm not sure this is true. I don't think games can be patched unless Nintendo included a mechanism in the game itself.

However, any of the API's, including the cursor tracking API, are going to be in the ROM and could be modified.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

However, any of the API's, including the cursor tracking API, are going to be in the ROM and could be modified.

What happens when you launch Zelda though and it has its own custom settings?

goMac · Nov 28, 2006, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

What happens when you launch Zelda though and it has its own custom settings?

The tracking API just feeds data. Zelda actually builds the buffer, performs the regression, and decides which way the cursor is moving.

This is why it works differently than duck hunt, and why duck hunt would be just fine. Duck Hunt just needs a one shot snapshot of where you are pointing, as where Zelda needs directional data, and therefore needs a buffer of points where the cursor has been pointing in the last :blank : seconds. You could do directional stuff without a buffer, but it's going to be ultra sensitive. Using a buffer with a regression smoothes out any over-sensitivity.

In other words, you can update the ROM to try and feed Zelda different data, but I don't think you could force settings on Zelda.

Hawkeye_a · Nov 28, 2006, 07:49 PM

But why have this "buffer" if it's supposed to act like a "mouse" especially in the menu screen ?

In all honesty..... i think it has to do with screen size and distance from the TV. just the geometry of it all. why does it apear to have almost no lag of a 13" TV and look like it has a lot of lag on icruise's TV ?

Also remember the "direct sunlight" thing that was brought up before ? makes sence since the sensor bar is an IR emmiter...if you have direct sunlight from behind the TV, ull probably have IR hitting the wiimote, confusing it.

I cant understand this lag issue, but im going to try it out and if it's unacceptable i just wont get a Wii.

I reckon Nintendo can "solve" this issue by asking users ho big their TVs are, and approximately how far away from the TV they are, and then determine the "sensitivity" of t he Wiimote at that distance and for that TV, that every game can then use.

goMac · Nov 28, 2006, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

But why have this "buffer" if it's supposed to act like a "mouse" especially in the menu screen ?

Because in order to get a direction out of movement you have to have at least two points. A starting point and an ending point. Optical mice use the same system. There is a little tiny computer in an optical mouse taking pictures and trying to figure out how far the mouse has moved. Only, when you are sitting 5 feet away from your motion receiver, you need to lower the sensitivity. When you are sitting with a mouse, the distance between you and the mouse is 0, meaning the mouse can be higher sensitivity. The more points you collect, the less sensitive the cursor is, so each game's tracking engine has variable sensitivity depending on how the cursor will be used.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

In all honesty..... i think it has to do with screen size and distance from the TV. just the geometry of it all. why does it apear to have almost no lag of a 13" TV and look like it has a lot of lag on icruise's TV ?

Not sure. Probably has something to with smaller tv's needing the smoothing more than bigger tv's.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Also remember the "direct sunlight" thing that was brought up before ? makes sence since the sensor bar is an IR emmiter...if you have direct sunlight from behind the TV, ull probably have IR hitting the wiimote, confusing it.

You've got it backwards. Sunlight in front of the TV will cause issues, which as other have pointed out, isn't a huge deal because if you play with sunlight in front of your TV you'll get glare anyway.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

I cant understand this lag issue, but im going to try it out and if it's unacceptable i just wont get a Wii.

Do what I did. Go to a store and play with it. I have played on 3 tv's, from around 17 inches all the way up to 35 inches and have had no lag.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

I reckon Nintendo can "solve" this issue by asking users ho big their TVs are, and approximately how far away from the TV they are, and then determine the "sensitivity" of t he Wiimote at that distance and for that TV, that every game can then use.

Sensitivity is calculated per game, for very good technical reasons that have to do with each game using input how they want.

goMac · Nov 28, 2006, 08:43 PM

The following video seems relevant to most arguments in this thread.

We Try to Break a Wii news from 1UP.com

Interestingly this video proves that 3rd party IR bars are not only possible, but would not have to be hooked into the Wii itself.

zro · Nov 28, 2006, 08:53 PM

I find the idea of laser pointer behavior from the Wii remote hideous and foolish, I'd have loved to see more complete (well, any) calibration built into the Wii. I'm curious if telling the Wii how wide your screen is and how far above or below it the sensor bar is would do anything. Given the near endless possibilities of set-up, I'd say Nintendo nailed it out of the box. I'm highly impressed with the performance of the remote as is.

Though I am tempted to split the sensor bar in half and move the emitters to the corners of the set.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2006, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

The following video seems relevant to most arguments in this thread.

We Try to Break a Wii news from 1UP.com

I think I know where I got my broken Wii from in that case.

icruise · Nov 28, 2006, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by zro

I find the idea of laser pointer behavior from the Wii remote hideous and foolish, I'd have loved to see more complete (well, any) calibration built into the Wii.

Nobody is expecting laser-pointer behavior from the Wii remote-- the video is just an illustration showing how the cursor does not perfectly match your hand movements (which is what I think people mean when they say there is "no lag" -- feel free to correct me). And I think the reason is partially because, as you say, there is no way to calibrate it to your display. I also agree that there probably needs to be some artificial stabilization of the cursor or it would be very shaky (and in fact, in the Wii menu where the lag isn't so great, I do in fact get some shakiness with my cursor). So Nintendo may have decided that this was the best compromise.

And let me reiterate that I don't think it's a deal-breaker by any means. You can compensate for it in most cases, but it's also true that a shooter like Red Steel, the cursor lags behind my movements enough to be noticeable. I already sold it (hate the game) or I would try and illustrate this more.

Hawkeye_a · Nov 28, 2006, 11:11 PM

Im gonna try and then buy (if im happy with it).

Apparently freeloader works with the Wii for GCN games so i might just pick up the Australian Wii so i can access the Australian VC.

Man im really disappointed that Nintendo didnt make the Wii region free...there's such a huge market for international games...... <sigh>

funkboy · Nov 28, 2006, 11:32 PM

I would not say the Wii lags - that is how the controls are designed to move. If it were as jerky as a laser pointer, it would not feel good. The moving is supposed to feel fluid, and making motions with your hands is encouraged - if it were pixel perfect, it would be hell to accurately move the thing.
MindFad's video looks exactly how I would expect it to play, and how it should if mere mortals are playing the system.

Also: It's time to close this thread.

TETENAL · Nov 29, 2006, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by zro

I am tempted to split the sensor bar in half and move the emitters to the corners of the set.

Then your Wii wouldn't know how far away you are from the screen.

goMac · Nov 29, 2006, 02:38 AM

Beat TP. The ending did have a few surprises, but overall I wasn't left feeling the ending was as good as OOT's, but it was better than the other Zelda's.

Still digesting the game, I'll post some final thoughts soon.

- - e r i k - - · Nov 29, 2006, 07:02 AM

Wiindwaker

Millennium · Nov 29, 2006, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Man im really disappointed that Nintendo didnt make the Wii region free...there's such a huge market for international games...... <sigh>

Yeah; I've got to say, this is one of the things Sony really got right with this generation. The hell of it is, Nintendo got it right with the DS, so why not with the Wii?

ink · Nov 29, 2006, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Millennium

Yeah; I've got to say, this is one of the things Sony really got right with this generation. The hell of it is, Nintendo got it right with the DS, so why not with the Wii?

Freeloader works with the Wii for GCN games -- and they haven't built a console that hasn't been region-free hacked yet, so prospects are high. I think that the hardware manufacturers secretly want region-free hardware; but the software makers demand it for tiered global pricing (stooopid idea, because one typically pays MORE for import games anyway).

Hawkeye_a · Nov 29, 2006, 09:16 AM

ink, so have u tried freeloader with the Wii ? ive seen reports of it , and claiming that it works, but im going to try it out at retail before i buy.

starman · Nov 29, 2006, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Beat TP. The ending did have a few surprises, but overall I wasn't left feeling the ending was as good as OOT's, but it was better than the other Zelda's.

Still digesting the game, I'll post some final thoughts soon.

You beat it already? That's disappointing.

Hawkeye_a · Nov 29, 2006, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by starman

You beat it already? That's disappointing.

No kidding. but chances are that with my experience in gaming it'll take me a year to get through (not kidding).

Millennium · Nov 29, 2006, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by starman

You beat it already? That's disappointing.

It's been out for a week and a half now: some 240 hours. Even assuming eight hours each for sleep and work or school, you've got some 80 hours to play. Someone with enough time on their hands could beat just about any game in that amount of time.

starman · 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

No kidding. but chances are that with my experience in gaming it'll take me a year to get through (not kidding).

It took me months to get through OoT, mainly because I loved exploring the game. I remember being sick over Christmas break that year and taking notes on it (I still have the notebook). To beat it in a week really makes me wonder if it's worth spending all this time trying to get.

EDIT: I realized after writing this that people might not know that OoT came our around Thanksgiving.