[ort888]

Yeah, but that link doesn't tell you what movies they are. Now we know.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Yeah, but that link doesn't tell you what movies they are. Now we know.

Ah, I didn't read the original article (read it on AVS) and assumed the movies were in that one. My bad.

And I hear the Corpse Bride isn't too bad. Too bad it's on the same tier as Blazing Saddles. And that fourth tier? Woah man. It'll be hard to pick a movie out of those. They're all oscar-worthy films!

[hmurchison2001]

Actually I have Blazing Saddles on HD DVD and it looks damn good for a movie that's over 25yrs old. It's not everyones cup o' tea for a movie but I was actually shocked at how good it looked.

[icruise]

I think he meant it's too bad that you can't choose both Blazing Saddles and Corpse Bride.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Warners: Warners delay launch of Total HD Until 2008 - Gizmodo

[macintologist]

Would it be possible that customers just simply say "No" to both?

[Dakarʒ]

Like they did to SACD and DVD-Audio?



(No, but I think it's going to take a bit longer to catch on than DVD)

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Would it be possible that customers just simply say "No" to both?

No.

[macintologist]

Yea why isn't this like Dakar's example of SACD and DVD-A? I really can't imagine any time in the next 5-10 years of me buying into these new standards.

[Dakarʒ]

The main difference I can think of is SACD and Audio-DVD aren't marketed or pushed, at all.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001 

Actually I have Blazing Saddles on HD DVD and it looks damn good for a movie that's over 25yrs old. It's not everyones cup o' tea for a movie but I was actually shocked at how good it looked.

Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, but it expressed a courage that is little seen in this day and age.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Yea why isn't this like Dakar's example of SACD and DVD-A? I really can't imagine any time in the next 5-10 years of me buying into these new standards.

I didn't buy one either. It was given to me with the purchase of a $999 TV. It's quite nice too.

When they are giving them with the purchase of a TV then you know they standard has been adopted.

[Eug]

I have a DVD-Audio player. A friend had a SACD player. Those are the two most useless formats ever. I have an HD DVD player. A friend has Blu-ray. Those formats are a humungous leap forward. ie. The comparison between DVD-A/SACD vs. HD DVD/Blu-ray is meaningless. Both DVD-A and SACD were dead before they even started. (I knew that when I got my DVD-A player. It didn't bother me though, since I wasn't really interested in the DVD-A part in the first place. I bought the player because it was a very good DVD player.)

BTW, Toshiba has announced that its $299 HD DVD promotion is no longer a promotion.

As of July 1, $299 is the official MSRP for Toshiba's entry level HD DVD player.

"In other HD DVD news, the company said that promotional pricing levels on its HD DVD players in May and June will become standard suggested retails July 1. The HD-A2 is now $299, while the HD-A20 is $399. The top-of-the-line HD-XA2 continues at $799."

P.S. Corpse Bride is one of my favourite movies on HD DVD. The movie itself is excellent IMO, and the video transfer is outstanding.

[Veltliner]

Have you seen this about a comparison of upconverting SD DVD players on HD TVs vs. HD DVD and BLU-RAY players?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062300060.html

This article says, that except in very demanding scenes like mass scenes or scenes with a lot of movement, the differences weren't that great.

[Eug]

Toshiba and Microsoft Remind Us What HD DVD Can Do (and What Blu-Ray Can't)



"To demo Web content, Collins pulled up the anime flick Freedom, from Bandai. He pulled down French subtitles where none existed before. He downloaded trailers (compressed for the Web.) Check out the gallery for all that, plus some translucent PIP effects—hell, just because that movie just looks so amazingly good."

Originally Posted by Veltliner 

Have you seen this about a comparison of upconverting SD DVD players on HD TVs vs. HD DVD and BLU-RAY players?

washingtonpost.com

This article says, that except in very demanding scenes like mass scenes or scenes with a lot of movement, the differences weren't that great.

However, in those types of scenes, it's often a huge difference when it comes to digital noise IMO. This is esp. true on LCD TVs.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The comparison between DVD-A/SACD vs. HD DVD/Blu-ray is meaningless.

However, all the A/V nerds are going crazy about uncompressed audio on the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray discs, which is what DVD-A and SACD offered. So the technology comparison is dead on. Don't know why the nerds care about the audio now when they didn't before, though...

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

"To demo Web content, Collins pulled up the anime flick Freedom, from Bandai. He pulled down French subtitles where none existed before. He downloaded trailers (compressed for the Web.) Check out the gallery for all that, plus some translucent PIP effects—hell, just because that movie just looks so amazingly good."

Wow, that's all the neat stuff everyone demands! Why fill a 30 gig disk with 20 megs of Subtitles from the start when you can download it later?

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Wow, that's all the neat stuff everyone demands! Why fill a 30 gig disk with 20 megs of Subtitles from the start when you can download it later?

Or how about you can buy a disc in the US and get subtitles in your preferred language no matter what they put on the disc.

Or are you just a fan of limiting consumer choice?

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I have a DVD-Audio player. A friend had a SACD player. Those are the two most useless formats ever. I have an HD DVD player. A friend has Blu-ray. Those formats are a humungous leap forward. ie. The comparison between DVD-A/SACD vs. HD DVD/Blu-ray is meaningless. Both DVD-A and SACD were dead before they even started. (I knew that when I got my DVD-A player. It didn't bother me though, since I wasn't really interested in the DVD-A part in the first place. I bought the player because it was a very good DVD player.)

Yeah, I was interested in hearing music in 5.1 rather than stereo. But the music industry has pretty much slit DVD-Audio's throat by including several audio DVDs that just run on a normal DVD player with certain albums.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Or how about you can buy a disc in the US and get subtitles in your preferred language no matter what they put on the disc.

Or are you just a fan of limiting consumer choice?

So these languages are only available the day after the disks get pressed I assume? Or do you call Toshiba and ask for subtitles in Swahili and they upload it for you then?

While they are at it why not make the ending of the movie downloadable after the fact also.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

However, all the A/V nerds are going crazy about uncompressed audio on the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray discs, which is what DVD-A and SACD offered. So the technology comparison is dead on. Don't know why the nerds care about the audio now when they didn't before, though...

Cuz they're AV nerds. AV nerds went crazy about DVD-A and SACD too. So what? I guess in that respect they can be compared: DVD-A and SACD excited the AV nerds, but was irrelevant. AV nerds now are excited about hi-def music Blu-ray/HD DVD discs, but those will also be irrelevant.

As for uncompressed audio/losslessly compressed audio on movie discs, that's just an added feature, to an already impressive feature set.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

So these languages are only available the day after the disks get pressed I assume? Or do you call Toshiba and ask for subtitles in Swahili and they upload it for you then?

Some subtitles become available weeks to months later. Stop being flippant. This can be a very useful feature for some movies and you know it. You're brushing it off just because not all Blu-ray players can support it, whereas all HD DVD players can.

While they are at it why not make the ending of the movie downloadable after the fact also.

Actually, that would be a possibility. Downloadable alternate scenes, etc.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Actually, that would be a possibility. Downloadable alternate scenes, etc.

Don't you understand? Adding content for free after purchase is a *bad* thing!

[Dakarʒ]

Downloadable content is work, and the average consumer ain't going to give a damn.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Downloadable content is work, and the average consumer ain't going to give a damn.

Well so far neither format is being adopted by the average consumer, so I'm not sure it matters much right now.

[Veltliner]

Subtitles are a great thing to watch a movie in its original language.

Poor subtitling can ruin a lot. I have seen many movies with subtitles in different languages, and I can tell you: if they aren't done well, they might as well not be there. Subtitles demand exact timing and very concise translation. Only then you get this ideal effect, that you remember having seen the film in your own mother tongue, when, in fact, you saw it in another language and had subtitles. This effect can happen when it is done well.

I really would not want to do an internet search for downloadable subtitles, check, which set of subtitles fits which version or edition of the movie, check out my player's compatitibility requirements....

This way you stand a good chance you have a mismatch of subtitles, the wrong subtitles.

Someone might think this could not happen. I congratulate this person for his trust in the industry, and propose him or her for the golden Sony/Toshiba order of the encoded disc.

Subtitles have to be on the disc. It has to be well prepared, or it won't work.

[Veltliner]

Another alternative would be interesting (and is already partially available on DVD):

to be able to watch a movie in its original version, with or without subtitles, or in any dubbed version.

This would only be reasonable for discs without annoying regional codes.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Veltliner 

Subtitles are a great thing to watch a movie in its original language.

Poor subtitling can ruin a lot. I have seen many movies with subtitles in different languages, and I can tell you: if they aren't done well, they might as well not be there. Subtitles demand exact timing and very concise translation. Only then you get this ideal effect, that you remember having seen the film in your own mother tongue, when, in fact, you saw it in another language and had subtitles. This effect can happen when it is done well.

I really would not want to do an internet search for downloadable subtitles, check, which set of subtitles fits which version or edition of the movie, check out my player's compatitibility requirements....

This way you stand a good chance you have a mismatch of subtitles, the wrong subtitles.

Someone might think this could not happen. I congratulate this person for his trust in the industry, and propose him or her for the golden Sony/Toshiba order of the encoded disc.

Subtitles have to be on the disc. It has to be well prepared, or it won't work.

They can't be well prepared but off the disc? Why are the two mutually exclusive?

And who said anything about having to search for subtitles? These are menus inside the HD DVD, not something you have to google for...

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

They can't be well prepared but off the disc? Why are the two mutually exclusive?

Not necessarily, but possibly. If you know that movies come out in different versions in even the same country, but definitely in different countries. There are director's cuts, and with the number of possibilities human error can creep in, which is less likely when it is already on the disc.

Additionally, sometimes those extra services, that are being delivered after the fact (of buying a disc) are not as well maintained, regarded as add-ons. So you click for subtitles, but they aren't there. Don't tell me you never had an internet link not working. I'm sure there are many more possibilities why external content is not as good as having it on the disc, but this should be enough for inspiration right now.

As subtitles can't be such large files, it would be much more practicable to have them on the disc. Any outside, web storage is more like a promise, which may be delivered, or may not.

Of course, one could be a trustful person and think, this would never happen. Usually one finds such trusting customers in the dreams of marketing people.

[jokell82]

Or maybe you just need to not be a cynical person to see that sometimes new things could be made available after the disc is produced, and without an option like this the customer would be SOL.

Again, how can the possibility of free online add-ons be a bad thing?

[icruise]

I think it can theoretically be a bad thing for the same reason that (some may argue) having easy downloading of online patches or content additions for software and games can sometimes be a bad thing -- it can encourage the content producers to not do things right in the first place. I for one know of a fair number of video games that were released in buggy states or with half-assed content which wasn't supplemented with the promised downloads until months after release. If it's genuinely something extra, obviously having the option to have the additions is a good thing, but I think there's the very real danger that things that would normally be included on a disc get put on the back burner. After all, once you've sold someone the disc, the incentive to keep producing content is greatly reduced.

[Eug]

Game patches have never been a bad thing.

Bugs are inevitable. It would be 100X worse to never be able to patch a game or add game content.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by icruise 

I think it can theoretically be a bad thing for the same reason that (some may argue) having easy downloading of online patches or content additions for software and games can sometimes be a bad thing -- it can encourage the content producers to not do things right in the first place. I for one know of a fair number of video games that were released in buggy states or with half-assed content which wasn't supplemented with the promised downloads until months after release. If it's genuinely something extra, obviously having the option to have the additions is a good thing, but I think there's the very real danger that things that would normally be included on a disc get put on the back burner. After all, once you've sold someone the disc, the incentive to keep producing content is greatly reduced.

I hear that, however downloadable content cannot fix a problem disc. All it could be used for would be added content.

And if content creators simply rushed discs to market with the attitude that anything can be added later, you'd get at least some consumer backlash. I know *I* wouldn't buy those discs...

[icruise]

I agree, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Again, how can the possibility of free online add-ons be a bad thing?

They just use it to try so get you to subscribe to their online services so you can get all the freebies. You're so innocent.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

They just use it to try so get you to subscribe to their online services so you can get all the freebies. You're so innocent.

Even if for some features for some titles require registration, who says you have to subscribe? You have the choice not to.

[jokell82]

Eug don't you get it, choice == bad.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by icruise 

I think it can theoretically be a bad thing for the same reason that (some may argue) having easy downloading of online patches or content additions for software and games can sometimes be a bad thing -- it can encourage the content producers to not do things right in the first place. I for one know of a fair number of video games that were released in buggy states or with half-assed content which wasn't supplemented with the promised downloads until months after release. If it's genuinely something extra, obviously having the option to have the additions is a good thing, but I think there's the very real danger that things that would normally be included on a disc get put on the back burner. After all, once you've sold someone the disc, the incentive to keep producing content is greatly reduced.

Exactly.

And he is adding: moving content to internet links supports a call-back attitude of content providers.

It's like when you say in movie production: "we'll fix it in post" (and then there's a lot of unfixables, and the movie turns out worse than it could have been with good production).

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

I hear that, however downloadable content cannot fix a problem disc. All it could be used for would be added content.

And if content creators simply rushed discs to market with the attitude that anything can be added later, you'd get at least some consumer backlash. I know *I* wouldn't buy those discs...

Nobody would. Except when most production rushed their discs to production, because they have to meet deadlines (then you don't have the choice but buy a rushed disc). And they are called deadlines for several reasons, none of them friendly.

I guess Virginia must be a nice place. But in LA, film production is ALWAYS rushed, from the get-go. Crews work sixteen hour shifts up to seven days a week, special effects people work non stop for months, and even on Chrismas day... Don't think disc production would get the enough time to play it safe.

The main thing is to get the movie well on disc, and the subtitles.

Extras, not necessary for watching the movie (the typical "special features"), may be on the internet. If they don't work, it's not a big deal (except when they mess up my hard drive - I'd rather restrict the number of things I download from the web).

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Some subtitles become available weeks to months later. Stop being flippant.

Ya I am sure all 3 of you will be happy to use that then.

Plus it wil come out pirated in whatever subtitle you want a week before it is even released anyway.

This is no way a big selling point for HD and they need all the reasons they can get.

[jokell82]

So, essentially what you're saying is:

No extras on the disc and no possibility to add more later == good
No extras on the disc but possibility to add more later == bad

Sheesh, we're talking about possibilities here and you guys are categorically rejecting something based on what *could* happen.

And it's not like all downloadable content out there right now is bad. There are quite a few things I've downloaded from XBox Live that have been great additions to games.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

So, essentially what you're saying is:

No extras on the disc and no possibility to add more later == good
No extras on the disc but possibility to add more later == bad

No new features is nice and good the point is they aren't going to do anything useful with it (like DVD extras) and it is pointless to get your panties in a bunch thinking this is the greatest thing for HD.

[goMac]

It looks like Toshiba is offering the A2 for $99 to Home Media Expo Attendees. One could hope the price drop is for the general public:

Dealzmodo Rumor: $100 HD DVD Player With 3 Free Movies? - Gizmodo

This would be quite a ways over Eug's magical price line.

[Dakarʒ]

That's a nice move if it is indeed available for the consumer.

The past few months seem like a race to find the magical price-point to get some market saturation.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by goMac 

It looks like Toshiba is offering the A2 for $99 to Home Media Expo Attendees. One could hope the price drop is for the general public:

Dealzmodo Rumor: $100 HD DVD Player With 3 Free Movies? - Gizmodo

This would be quite a ways over Eug's magical price line.

That's not a price drop, it's an expo sale. But I almost wish it was a real price drop, because then we'd finally be able to put to rest the idea that once HD-DVD hits some magical price point it will suddenly surge into the lead.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

It looks like Toshiba is offering the A2 for $99 to Home Media Expo Attendees. One could hope the price drop is for the general public:

Dealzmodo Rumor: $100 HD DVD Player With 3 Free Movies? - Gizmodo

This would be quite a ways over Eug's magical price line.

SNAP!

"You may be thinking this is great news: but wait, there's a catch. Only attendees of the show will be able to take advantage of the deal, and with ticket prices of between $100 and $500, the deal isn't as great once you get in. Toshiba, maybe you should focus on reducing the prices for general consumers rather than running these awkward "promotions." The fact that you're trying to sell players at a conference reeks of desperation, which is weird since it looks like you've got nothing to worry about."

Toshiba selling $99 HD DVD player, with a catch - Engadget

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

SNAP!

"You may be thinking this is great news: but wait, there's a catch. Only attendees of the show will be able to take advantage of the deal, and with ticket prices of between $100 and $500, the deal isn't as great once you get in. Toshiba, maybe you should focus on reducing the prices for general consumers rather than running these awkward "promotions." The fact that you're trying to sell players at a conference reeks of desperation, which is weird since it looks like you've got nothing to worry about."

Toshiba selling $99 HD DVD player, with a catch - Engadget

Oh c'mon. Have you ever been to a technology conference? Companies are always trying to push more product through special deals.

Next thing you know, people will be giving away things for free at these conferences. We could call these free items "SWAG", or stuff we all got...

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Oh c'mon. Have you ever been to a technology conference? Companies are always trying to push more product through special deals.

Next thing you know, people will be giving away things for free at these conferences. We could call these free items "SWAG", or stuff we all got...

Why do you always reply as if I wrote it?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Why do you always reply as if I wrote it?

Because you seemed to agree with it.

[jokell82]

He did agree with it, hence the "SNAP!"

I liked this from Warner:

Originally Posted by http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/8730/9754/blu-ray-sales-figures-hddvd-claim.phtml

Earlier this week sales figures from the European HD DVD Promotion Group announced that Toshiba has taken a leading share of the European market for standalone high definition players, according to independent pan-European research by GfK.

Following what they describe as a strong period of sales and momentum for the format, HD DVD’s share of the market averaged 74% from January to May 2007.

Taking a swipe at the Blu-ray stats that are bolstered by the number of PS3's sold, Steve Nickerson, senior vice president, high hefinition media at Warner Bros sates:

"These figures are especially important because the standalone player market is by far the biggest driver of movie sales in the long-term."

"This is simply because those who buy a standalone player are interested solely in buying and watching movies and other video content, whereas those with HD drives built into games consoles are primarily interested in games."

[icruise]

I like how they take a difference of a few thousand standalone players (as mentioned a few weeks back, standalone HD player sales for Europe as of March totaled 10,000 units for both formats combined) and make it sound like a huge victory. When 800,000 PS3s were sold in Europe up to the same point in time, it's just a tad difficult to discount its effect.