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Guess where Mexico gets most of its illegal guns from (Page 4)
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
In that case, I've gone cart before the horse. How does a military dictator get into power?
You need a few specific starting conditions.
A big threat is required. The citizenry has to be scared enough they're willing to give up the built-in protections against a military dictatorship. One of the big ones being not allowing the military to conduct operations on US soil.
That's the tipping point. Once that happens, the military becomes its own political entity. Candidates start wanting clandestine support of the military, so they're willing to make deals. Once they make a deal, the military has dirt on the candidate, all the better when it's time to make the next deal.
Before you know it, you're Pakistan, where no one gets elected without the military's say so, and if you try, you get a suicide bomber assigned to you.
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Clinically Insane
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Also note I'd see a population without guns being far quicker to demand military protection from a hypothetical threat than one with guns. IOW, faster trip to the tipping point.
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Professional Poster
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Originally Posted by subego
You need a few specific starting conditions.
A big threat is required. The citizenry has to be scared enough they're willing to give up the built-in protections against a military dictatorship. One of the big ones being not allowing the military to conduct operations on US soil.
That's the tipping point. Once that happens, the military becomes its own political entity. Candidates start wanting clandestine support of the military, so they're willing to make deals. Once they make a deal, the military has dirt on the candidate, all the better when it's time to make the next deal.
Before you know it, you're Pakistan, where no one gets elected without the military's say so, and if you try, you get a suicide bomber assigned to you.
Or you create a second military that not called a military so it is allowed to operate on US soil.
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Clinically Insane
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I will call this new military "drones".
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Games Meister
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Originally Posted by subego
You need a few specific starting conditions.
A big threat is required. The citizenry has to be scared enough they're willing to give up the built-in protections against a military dictatorship. One of the big ones being not allowing the military to conduct operations on US soil.
That's the tipping point. Once that happens, the military becomes its own political entity. Candidates start wanting clandestine support of the military, so they're willing to make deals. Once they make a deal, the military has dirt on the candidate, all the better when it's time to make the next deal.
Before you know it, you're Pakistan, where no one gets elected without the military's say so, and if you try, you get a suicide bomber assigned to you.
I don't see how guns stop this. They certainly aren't right now.
Originally Posted by subego
Also note I'd see a population without guns being far quicker to demand military protection from a hypothetical threat than one with guns. IOW, faster trip to the tipping point.
I'd say 9/11 proved that as bunk.
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Clinically Insane
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Games Meister
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Originally Posted by subego
How so?
I'm under the impression the Patriot Act is pretty shit, things haven't gotten better (rights-wise) yet we're as armed as they come.
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Clinically Insane
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I didn't say piss away civil liberties, I said let the military operate on US soil.
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Games Meister
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So we'd have to be invaded? Luckily for us, also not likely.
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Clinically Insane
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No. Some dirty bombs or suitcase nukes would do it IMO.
What's in our favor on that front is they're hard to hide if you're looking for radiation.
In the realm of possible terrorist attacks, 9/11 was weaksauce.
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Clinically Insane
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Re: getting invaded.
After WWII, there was discussion about planning for a possible war with Britian.
The point of this is a lot can change in 50 years.
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Games Meister
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So let's see if I'm keeping up. We've gone from guns to protect us from the government (which would need the military), to protect us from the military (which would need to lose civilian oversight), to protect us from our own military post invasion from a foreign entity?
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Clinically Insane
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Before I answer, is there any reason you are focusing on the less probable "Red Dawn" scenario, rather than on the far more probable terrorist attack?
I'm feeling a lot of take and not much give in this debate.
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Games Meister
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I'm trying to keep up, dear. Should I add, "to protect us from terrorists with dirty bombs" to the sentence. Are we talking preventative or reactionary protection?
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Clinically Insane
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I know I may not be the clearest communicator, but if you think I'm saying "guns protect us from terrorists from dirty bombs", I don't buy that you're really trying as hard as you claim.
Rather than rephrase three posts you feel you're lost on into one big cluster for me to un****, why don't you pick one piece, and we'll start with that.
Fair?
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Games Meister
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Originally Posted by subego
I know I may not be the clearest communicator, but if you think I'm saying "guns protect us from terrorists from dirty bombs", I don't buy that you're really trying as hard as you claim.
Rather than rephrase three posts you feel you're lost on into one big cluster for me to un****, why don't you pick one piece, and we'll start with that.
Fair?
Well, I'm adding my counterpoints as we progress. Let's rewind back to my first response from today. I mused the guns really protect us from the military not the government. Do you want start again from there?
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Clinically Insane
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Absolutely!
I'd say it's accurate insofar we have a cultural and legal separation between the government and the military.
In my opinion, this is because we've been successfully attacked only twice in living memory (I'm not counting Oklahoma City or the first WTC attack). Were the rate of successful attacks to be significantly higher than once every 50 years, I think you'd get pressure to tear down that legal and cultural barrier.
Of course, the likelihood of another Pearl Harbor is going to be insignificant within our lifetimes, but a lot can happen in 50-80 years. This was my point about our post-WWII attitude about England. It's crazy to imagine we were planning for the possibility of going to war with them. Things have changed, and they will change again. We've been on top of the world since the 40's, so there are a lot of things which are pretty unimaginable at the moment (like a land invasion).
I can guarantee you this superiority won't last forever. Maybe for 200 more years, maybe 2,000. Both are a long time, neither are forever.
Taking our leave of science fiction, multiple devastating terrorist attacks, while improbable, are well within the realm of possibility.
If this were to happen, I believe whether the guns are acting as a check against the government or the military would start to get a lot hazier.
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Originally Posted by subego
Battle rifle:
Again, more dangerous than an M-16.
M1 Garand correct? You can buy one from the government through the Civilian Marksmanship Program
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45/47
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by Chongo
M1 Garand correct? You can buy one from the government through the Civilian Marksmanship Program
Exactly, it's not banned, and way more powerful then so called "assault weapons." the 30.06 round can go through three people easily vs 5.56 which has way less stopping power. Check it out - The middle is the NATO 5.56 round which most of the weapons classified as "assault weapons" ar-15/m16) use. Guns such as the m14, m1, and several modern counterparts use the 30-06 but are not under attack from the liberal left.
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Clinically Insane
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All three would go right through that paper towel.
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Professional Poster
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Yes but can you name the brand
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Clinically Insane
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If it's not Brawny, you're a pussyâ„¢
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by subego
Before you know it, you're Pakistan, where no one gets elected without the military's say so, and if you try, you get a suicide bomber assigned to you.
Pakistan candidate targeted, killed, official says - CNN.com
Note the Pakistani military has strong ties to the Taliban. They virtually run the thing in Afghanistan.
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Games Meister
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Originally Posted by subego
Absolutely!
I'd say it's accurate insofar we have a cultural and legal separation between the government and the military.
In my opinion, this is because we've been successfully attacked only twice in living memory (I'm not counting Oklahoma City or the first WTC attack). Were the rate of successful attacks to be significantly higher than once every 50 years, I think you'd get pressure to tear down that legal and cultural barrier.
Of course, the likelihood of another Pearl Harbor is going to be insignificant within our lifetimes, but a lot can happen in 50-80 years. This was my point about our post-WWII attitude about England. It's crazy to imagine we were planning for the possibility of going to war with them. Things have changed, and they will change again. We've been on top of the world since the 40's, so there are a lot of things which are pretty unimaginable at the moment (like a land invasion).
I can guarantee you this superiority won't last forever. Maybe for 200 more years, maybe 2,000. Both are a long time, neither are forever.
Taking our leave of science fiction, multiple devastating terrorist attacks, while improbable, are well within the realm of possibility.
If this were to happen, I believe whether the guns are acting as a check against the government or the military would start to get a lot hazier.
I see what you're saying, but I have trouble really imagining the situation. Do you have any modern analogues to point to? Egypt perhaps?
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Clinically Insane
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Modern analogues to what?
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Games Meister
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Democratic government with legal and cultural separation from the military losing that separation thanks to domestic attack and the new found military power than turning against its citizens.*
*assuming my summary was accurate
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Clinically Insane
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Ah.
There's only been one 9/11-scale terrorist attack in history, so one shouldn't expect for there to be an analogue to multiple larger attacks.
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Games Meister
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I thought it didn't have to specifically be terrorist based, though. Just a loss of internal security that would move the populace to cede large amounts of authority to the military.
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Clinically Insane
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Of all the ways that could happen, a bunch of big terrorist attacks seems the most likely and plausible.
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Games Meister
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Well I was trying to help you out there.
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Clinically Insane
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I'm just trying to make clear I'm not saying we get invaded by Mexico or something.
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Professional Poster
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Originally Posted by subego
I'm just trying to make clear I'm not saying we get invaded by Mexico or something.
To a certain extent we are being invaded by Mexico...it's not a bum rush but more of a slowly steady trickle. Over time you have 11M+ illegal Mexican immigrants who are slowly changing our country.
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"Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes." Frank Drebin, Naked Gun 33 1/3: The Final Insult
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Clinically Insane
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Nothing wrong with that in my book. The changes immigrants make are on the whole a good thing.
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Originally Posted by subego
Nothing wrong with that in my book. The changes immigrants make are on the whole a good thing.
I agree, but I wish they would consider themselves "Americans." It's bough to fully support a group who refuse to follow our laws but then get free services/stuff in return. Reminds me of an old friend who would come to my dorm room, eat my food, drink my beer, play my Sega Genesis, ask for rides, etc. then bought a brand new car cash (after I dropped him off 500 miles away). He got a leg up by milking me and other friends. We did it out of the kindness of our hearts and because we could own him in Mortal Kombat...but he was a mooch and that's how many people see the illegal immigrants...let's fix that then let them help America.
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"Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes." Frank Drebin, Naked Gun 33 1/3: The Final Insult
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Clinically Insane
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Maybe I'm missing what you mean, but it seems to me the problem isn't immigrants thinking they aren't Americans, it's Americans thinking that which is the problem.
My guess is the vast majority would be thrilled to be Americans.
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Originally Posted by subego
Maybe I'm missing what you mean, but it seems to me the problem isn't immigrants thinking they aren't Americans, it's Americans thinking that which is the problem.
My guess is the vast majority would be thrilled to be Americans.
Yeah. America = lots of immigrants but we need people who come here to follow the laws of the land, that's all. If they come here illegally and then mooch off the system we'll have a problem.
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"Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes." Frank Drebin, Naked Gun 33 1/3: The Final Insult
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Originally Posted by cgc
To a certain extent we are being invaded by Mexico...it's not a bum rush but more of a slowly steady trickle. Over time you have 11M+ illegal Mexican immigrants who are slowly changing our country.
Originally Posted by subego
Nothing wrong with that in my book. The changes immigrants make are on the whole a good thing.
Until we become the majority.
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45/47
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Clinically Insane
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Games Meister
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White people extermination camps, I guess
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Clinically Insane
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Never mind.
Doesn't translate to text only.
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