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starman · Jul 27, 2007, 02:35 PM

I can't find a single link about the new Denon HD-DVD player, even on the HD-DVD web site.

Apple's logo is not on the HD-DVD web site.

I have Leopard (legally) so I'll check on the rumored HD-DVD support myself.

Target having endcaps for BR is a big deal. Having Disney flicks on an endcap is big. Why do you deny that?

You should read this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=879796

I'm trying hard to stay format neutral, but it's getting very, very hard to. With all this Blu-Ray support, and Close Encounters coming out this November, it's going to be a big year for Blu.

What big news items came this week from HD-DVD? None. Nada. Zip.

Eug · Jul 27, 2007, 02:39 PM

I think Batman Begins is the highest seller overall on HD DVD, but Planet Earth is the highest seller recently. (It hasn't been out for very long.) Actually, it's impressive that Planet Earth is doing so well, considering it's a documentary, and it costs quite a bit.

RCA's HD DVD player is a Toshiba rebrand. For standalones, as of this time the only real manufacturer is Toshiba (aside from the hybrid players). (Several companies make HD DVD PC drives though, and Chinese manufacturers amongst others are supposedly releasing HD DVD players this year.)

Apple already has limited HD DVD support. DVD Studio Pro makes un-DRM'd HD DVDs with H.264. These discs will play in any HD DVD player. Ironically, Apple currently has no support for Blu-ray at all AFAIK.

As for Close Encounters, I do think it's a significant release for some, although not for me. I never liked that movie much, and never bothered with it on DVD, much less hi-def. I'm very interested in Blade Runner though.

starman · Jul 27, 2007, 02:42 PM

It would be nice if SOMETHING exclusive was coming for HD-DVD. Jurassic Park, Back to the Future, SOMETHING. Fox and Disney alone have enough to crush HD-DVD. I don't want to sound cynical, but it seems to me people are loving these cheap HD-DVD players because it doesn't cost them much to watch the few movies on that format that they want and still stick with BR.

/shrug.

Eug · Jul 27, 2007, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by starman

It would be nice if SOMETHING exclusive was coming for HD-DVD. Jurassic Park, Back to the Future, SOMETHING. Fox and Disney alone have enough to crush HD-DVD. I don't want to sound cynical, but it seems to me people are loving these cheap HD-DVD players because it doesn't cost them much to watch the few movies on that format that they want and still stick with BR.

Fox and Disney have a good catalogue, but what I find odd is that they are simply not releasing them. Well, Disney to an extent, but Fox is awol. And this is despite Fox's declarations in the past about how awesome Blu-ray is. If it's so awesome, then they should actually release on the format.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to Hot Fuzz and Shaun of the Dead. They are certainly not the so-called blockbusters like Casino Royale, but they are more up my alley. (Or at least Shaun of the Dead is. I haven't seen Hot Fuzz yet, but I'm definitely looking forward to it.)

jokell82 · Jul 27, 2007, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by starman

I can't find a single link about the new Denon HD-DVD player, even on the HD-DVD web site.

My mistake, it was Denon Germany:
Denon setzt auf Blu-ray Disc - und sp�ter auch auf HD-DVD - Golem.de

The last line translates as: "Denon Germany cannot say at the moment when the first HD-DVD player will be introduced, but confirms respective plans (for such a player)."

Originally Posted by starman

Apple's logo is not on the HD-DVD web site.

And that means, what, exactly? They have *announced* in press releases support for both formats, and already support the creation of HD-DVD discs in DVD Studio Pro. This has been discussed (for several pages) in this thread already.

Originally Posted by starman

Target having endcaps for BR is a big deal. Having Disney flicks on an endcap is big. Why do you deny that?

Who is denying that? You again seem to read stuff that isn't written. What I *am* denying is Target going BluRay exclusive. THEY ARE NOT. Period.

As for the thread you linked to, most of that stuff has already been discussed. As for where the HD-DVD news is, it's that THEY HAVE A $199 PLAYER. Does BluRay have anything close to that? Nope...

starman · Jul 27, 2007, 03:03 PM

So HD-DVD has a cheap player and less movies. Blu-Ray has more expensive players and the bulk of the studios with the big titles.

I fail to see the relevance of a cheap player when the selection of titles is lower than the competition. This way might NOT be won on the price of the hardware. I thought it would be too, at first, but I'm seeing now that there's much more to it than that.

EDIT: and yes, Target *IS* going Blu-Ray exclusive with the *HARDWARE*.

jokell82 · Jul 27, 2007, 03:06 PM

And has already been stated, HD-DVD has 10 less total movies with US distribution right now, and if you include imports they have a bigger catalog.

So they have cheap players and MORE movies. Oh, and less DRM. And no region codes. And cheaper movies. And higher sales of players.

Eug · Jul 27, 2007, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

And has already been stated, HD-DVD has 10 less total movies with US distribution right now, and if you include imports they have a bigger catalog.

So they have cheap players and MORE movies. Oh, and less DRM. And no region codes. And cheaper movies. And higher sales of players.

Well, around here, sometimes HD DVD is more expensive, because of those combo discs.

Kenneth · Jul 27, 2007, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

And that means, what, exactly? They have *announced* in press releases support for both formats, and already support the creation of HD-DVD discs in DVD Studio Pro. This has been discussed (for several pages) in this thread already.

Back in Final Cut Studio age, the FC Studio marketing booklet mentioned HD DVD. However, I don't think 'HD DVD' = 'HD-DVD'.

starman · Jul 27, 2007, 03:16 PM

Combo discs suck. I have three and I paid $5 more for each one over the Blu-Ray counterparts. Am I supposed to feel good about that or something? Yay for HD-DVD.

That said, I will no longer support combo discs which means I will not be buying the $220 Star Trek Season One box set. I will buy it cheap/used at a later date, but not for that much since I'm paying for SD discs I won't ever be using.

Staying format neutral was easy up until about a month ago. Now I'm not so sure. I don't see how HD-DVD can survive with the upcoming onslaught of Fox and Disney films.

Where
Is
Jurassic
Park?

jokell82 · Jul 27, 2007, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by starman

So HD-DVD has a cheap player and less movies. Blu-Ray has more expensive players and the bulk of the studios with the big titles.

I fail to see the relevance of a cheap player when the selection of titles is lower than the competition. This way might NOT be won on the price of the hardware. I thought it would be too, at first, but I'm seeing now that there's much more to it than that.

EDIT: and yes, Target *IS* going Blu-Ray exclusive with the *HARDWARE*.

Again, no they aren't. They're still selling the 360 addon. They're going exclusive with standalones, and by exclusive they mean adding one.

Originally Posted by Kenneth

Back in Final Cut Studio age, the FC Studio marketing booklet mentioned HD DVD. However, I don't think 'HD DVD' = 'HD-DVD'.

The options exist in FC Pro to make HD-DVDs *now* - burning the disc onto an HD-DVD with a Mac is another story, but you can create the image.

jokell82 · Jul 27, 2007, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Where
Is
Jurassic
Park?

That is a damn good question!

starman · Jul 27, 2007, 03:30 PM

Are you REALLY considering the 360 addon as a player? It's not. It's an accessory and you need the 360 to use it.

If the HD-DVD drive was included in the 360 (like it should have been) then it would be a different story.

jokell82 · Jul 27, 2007, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Are you REALLY considering the 360 addon as a player? It's not. It's an accessory and you need the 360 to use it.

If the HD-DVD drive was included in the 360 (like it should have been) then it would be a different story.

I dunno, it's a device whose sole purpose is to play HD-DVDs. I'd call that a player. It's not like anyone is buying them accidentally and never buying movies.

icruise · Jul 27, 2007, 03:54 PM

If you go back and look at the last few weeks of this thread, there seems to be a common theme. Something apparently good happens for Blu-ray, and HD-DVD supporters explain why it doesn't mean anything. You don't have the opposite happening nearly as much. By this I mean that there just hasn't been that much promising news from the HD-DVD camp recently (and that one article about HD-DVD's supposed majority of marketshare in Europe was just embarrassing). Now, this might be because BR has better PR people, but even if that's the case, they're contributing to a general feeling that BR is doing better than HD-DVD.

jokell82 · Jul 27, 2007, 03:57 PM

The good news for HD-DVD is that price of systems are way down, sales are going up, and standalone marketshare is phenomenal. But you're right, the BD propaganda machine is good at what they do.

Eug · Jul 27, 2007, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kenneth

Back in Final Cut Studio age, the FC Studio marketing booklet mentioned HD DVD. However, I don't think 'HD DVD' = 'HD-DVD'.

There is no such thing as "HD-DVD".

And yes, those discs from Final Cut Studio are compatible with standalone HD DVD players.

starman · Jul 27, 2007, 04:08 PM

icruise,
I don't think it's the marketing people. REAL things are happening. This is an echo of the DVD days from '97 on when people would literally wait with baited breath for certain people/studios to say "such and such is coming on this date". People take for granted that we have DVD support at all. Now I'm seeing all this Blu-Ray support from studios and manufacturers thinking "well, maybe there's something to all this".

I personally thought Blu-Ray was going to flop for a variety of reasons, but maybe I was wrong. At least I stayed format neutral for a year. I'm not all for BR, but I'm sure leaning that way now.

Eug · Jul 27, 2007, 04:10 PM

Personally I think there is no chance of either side winning outright before 2009.

jokell82 · Jul 27, 2007, 04:15 PM

I don't think either side will "flop" either. I'd much rather have both formats co-exist and all studios go format neutral. That way I can keep my consumer rights and have access to all the HD movies.

And then I guess people would buy BD to...er...get more DRM?

ort888 · Jul 27, 2007, 04:55 PM

I just want one side to win. Come on whoever.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jul 27, 2007, 05:20 PM

BJ's Wholesale goes Blu-ray - Joystiq

jokell82 · Jul 27, 2007, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

BJ's Wholesale goes Blu-ray - Joystiq

Again, no they didn't. Somebody *thinks* they will, but nothing has been announced.

Unless, of course, you can find something from BJ's stating as such.

starman · Jul 27, 2007, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

I don't think either side will "flop" either. I'd much rather have both formats co-exist and all studios go format neutral. That way I can keep my consumer rights and have access to all the HD movies.

And then I guess people would buy BD to...er...get more DRM?

What would the consumer gain with two competing formats?

And so what about DRM? You put the disc in, it plays. What more do you want?

Kerrigan · Jul 27, 2007, 06:34 PM

oops

starman · Jul 27, 2007, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

oops

Bathroom is the first door on the right.

jokell82 · Jul 27, 2007, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by starman

What would the consumer gain with two competing formats?

And so what about DRM? You put the disc in, it plays. What more do you want?

No region coding for one. Being able to screw around with the video on my computer for two. Being able to add clips of movies I own to presentations is considered fair use, and yet I can't legally do it due to the DRM on these things.

My question to you is, why give up your rights as a consumer if you don't have to?

Besides all of that, non-mandatory/not complete BD specs and incomplete hardware? The BD group is a mess. They couldn't even finalize their hardware before they released it, what's to say the player you buy tomorrow isn't obsolete next year?

I'd rather avoid all of that. Especially since a better format exists.

icruise · Jul 27, 2007, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

No region coding for one.

I don't think region coding necessarily has anything to do with DRM. It's a valid issue to bring up, but you can't conflate the two.

Being able to screw around with the video on my computer for two. Being able to add clips of movies I own to presentations is considered fair use, and yet I can't legally do it due to the DRM on these things.

My question to you is, why give up your rights as a consumer if you don't have to?

While I admit that I rip DVDs for use on the iPod/iPhone, I don't think that we technically do have the "right" to do that, thanks to the US government. (Whether we should have that right is another matter.)

But in any case, just because HD-DVD's DRM is easier to crack doesn't mean that it's giving users free rein to copy them, does it? Or are you talking about managed copy? (That's another form of DRM, BTW)

jokell82 · Jul 27, 2007, 08:47 PM

No, but less DRM is better than more DRM.

Ideally there'd be no DRM, and the media companies wouldn't treat their customers as criminals.

starman · Jul 27, 2007, 10:17 PM

I agree that the DRM issue is real TODAY. I'm confident it'll get cracked eventually.

BasketofPuppies · Jul 27, 2007, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Ideally there'd be no DRM, and the media companies wouldn't treat their customers as criminals.

And if casual piracy weren't so common, companies wouldn't treat their customers as criminals.

Kenneth · Jul 27, 2007, 11:22 PM

my bad..

jokell82 · Jul 27, 2007, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies

And if casual piracy weren't so common, companies wouldn't treat their customers as criminals.

Software != movies. And enforcing licenses through serial numbers also != DRM.

aristotles · Jul 28, 2007, 07:31 PM

jokell82, you claim to be neutral but you sound like you are defending HD-DVD constantly.

I bought a PS3 a few months ago and it has turned into the best upscaling DVD player I've ever owned (upscales copied DVDs through component) and a great Blu-ray player.

I've bought 22 Blu-ray titles so far and 1 PS3 game (Ninja Gaiden Sigma).

The only thing missing is for Universal to stop supporting HD-DVD exclusively and release their movies on Blu-ray.

I would like to buy Universal titles but they expect me to shell out money for a dedicated HD-DVD player.

Universal Studios, release your titles on Blu-ray and gain millions of new customers.

icruise · Jul 28, 2007, 07:55 PM

When did he claim to be neutral?

jokell82 · Jul 28, 2007, 09:29 PM

I'm not neutral in the slightest.

On another note, I was in Sams Club today and they appear to be HD-DVD exclusive. They had a huge display with the HD-A2 and movies. There wasn't a single Blu-Ray player or movie in the whole store. Checked on AVS and it seems to have been like that since at least May.

jokell82 · Jul 28, 2007, 09:57 PM

Looks like Engadget posted a retraction on the Target news:
False alarm: Target's not giving up on HD DVD - Engadget

Dunno why it took a post from Major Nelson to clear it up, though.

aristotles · Jul 28, 2007, 11:43 PM

Last week Nielson rankings:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&page=28&pp=30

74% Blu-ray 26% HD-DVD

It's over folks. Universal Studios is the only thing keeping HD-DVD afloat.

icruise · Jul 28, 2007, 11:48 PM

Spin that.

starman · Jul 29, 2007, 12:54 AM

If you read the AVS forum (and I'm playing devil's advocate here), the numbers, admittedly impressive, will change in the next 2-3 weeks, but I still honestly believe BR will win by the end of the year.

Eug · Jul 29, 2007, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by starman

If you read the AVS forum (and I'm playing devil's advocate here), the numbers, admittedly impressive, will change in the next 2-3 weeks, but I still honestly believe BR will win by the end of the year.

Based on what?

Like I said before I don't believe an outright win is possible before 2009, and the reason for this is the numbers are far too small. Only about 1%ish of movie disc sales (with HD DVD and Blu-ray combined) are hi-def. There needs to be significant hi-def disc sales plus complete dominance of one format vs the other before anyone can be declared an outright winner.

I suppose a possibility is a win by one format in late 2008, but I wouldn't count on it.

Q4 2007 is going to be of huge importance of course, but I think it's optimistic to think we'll have a true answer by the end of 2007... unless one format screws up royally, and the other one doesn't.

goMac · Jul 29, 2007, 01:30 AM

If you look at the numbers, total disc sales are 1.2:1 in favor of Bluray. Things will change from week to week, but it's not the astonishing lead the Bluray fanboys would lead you to believe.

starman · Jul 29, 2007, 02:07 AM

*sigh*

Next week, I think the numbers are 12 HD-DVD movies, 9 are exclusive vs. 4 Blu-Ray with 1 exclusive.

I'm not talking out of my ass Eug, I'm presenting actual numbers with no bias.

EDIT: here

Releases for the 24th, which will be reflected in next weeks numbers.

HD DVD
The Bourne Identity (Universal)
The Contract (First Look)
Deep Purple: Live at Montreux 2006 (Rhino)
The Host (Magnolia)
In Good Company (Universal)
Nutty Professor 2: The Klumps (Universal)
Out for Justice (Warner)
Purple Rain (Warner)
Santana: Hymns for Peace - Live at Montreux 2004 (Rhino)
Scent of a Woman (Universal)
Streets of Fire (Universal)
Yes: Live at Montreux (Rhino)

12 releases - 9 exclusive

BD
The Host (Magnolia)
Out for Justice (Warner)
Purple Rain (Warner)
Weeds: Season Two (Lionsgate)

4 releases - 1 exclusive

aristotles · Jul 29, 2007, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by starman

If you read the AVS forum (and I'm playing devil's advocate here), the numbers, admittedly impressive, will change in the next 2-3 weeks, but I still honestly believe BR will win by the end of the year.

Notice the "since inception" and "year to date" percentages? It's getting worse, not better for HD-DVD.

Here is a trend analysis from the beginning of the year from the Nielson:

I don't see any trend of the gap narrowing or HD-DVD taking pole position away from Blu-ray.

starman · Jul 29, 2007, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

If you look at the numbers, total disc sales are 1.2:1 in favor of Bluray. Things will change from week to week, but it's not the astonishing lead the Bluray fanboys would lead you to believe.

Which numbers are you looking at?

aristotles · Jul 29, 2007, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by starman

*sigh*

Next week, I think the numbers are 12 HD-DVD movies, 9 are exclusive vs. 4 Blu-Ray with 1 exclusive.

I'm not talking out of my ass Eug, I'm presenting actual numbers with no bias.

EDIT: here

Releases for the 24th, which will be reflected in next weeks numbers.

HD DVD
The Bourne Identity (Universal)
The Contract (First Look)
Deep Purple: Live at Montreux 2006 (Rhino)
The Host (Magnolia)
In Good Company (Universal)
Nutty Professor 2: The Klumps (Universal)
Out for Justice (Warner)
Purple Rain (Warner)
Santana: Hymns for Peace - Live at Montreux 2004 (Rhino)
Scent of a Woman (Universal)
Streets of Fire (Universal)
Yes: Live at Montreux (Rhino)

12 releases - 9 exclusive

BD
The Host (Magnolia)
Out for Justice (Warner)
Purple Rain (Warner)
Weeds: Season Two (Lionsgate)

4 releases - 1 exclusive

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Notice how most of those titles are not in the most recent releases for either format?

starman · Jul 29, 2007, 02:23 AM

Yes they are.

Premonition came out last week, as did The Fifth Element REMASTER. Apoc. was two weeks ago.

goMac · Jul 29, 2007, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by aristotles

See the chart to the right? Bluray has %60 of all disc sales, HD-DVD has %40. Overall, Bluray is leading about 1.2:1-1.3:1.

jokell82 · Jul 29, 2007, 07:25 AM

Remember Nielsen doesn't include many retailers, including two MAJOR retailers: Amazon.com and Walmart. Considering Walmart sells about 40% of ALL DVDs, that's a pretty big chunk they don't include.

jokell82 · Jul 29, 2007, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by aristotles

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Notice how most of those titles are not in the most recent releases for either format?

They're listing Premonition as the top selling HD disc??? It's not even in the top 50 on Amazon. Where the hell do they get their data???