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Kerrigan · Jan 16, 2008, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by anogee

I know that nobody here wants to admit it, but we are seeing the turning point for Apple. The turning point occurs with every company when it grows large and powerful, when it switches from the cool, small, rebel company, to a large mainstream one that is out for just one thing, to make tons of money for it's investors and shareholders. Another example is Starbucks, which "turned" some time ago.

Those that have known Apple for all these years easily can see it. The "old" Apple we know wouldn't "brick" people's Apple devices if they had installed some software that Apple didn't approve of on it. The "old" Apple wouldn't charge $20 for a minor upgrade of software that should have been on a device in the first place. The "old" Apple considered it's customers to be its number one priority. The "new" Apple is a business before all else.

I remember when I bought my first iPod, it was very special. Apple included all the accessories that I would need. Charger, instructions, extra foam pads for the earphones, installation CD. I bought one recently, and I got the impression that they argued endless hours in their boardroom just deciding if they should include a "stand" which must cost them about $0.03 Who cares if the customer just paid $400 for the device?

I'm sad to see the "old" Apple go, but its a fact of life when a company becomes large and powerful. It also means that the real "innovation" ends, which is what I think we just witnessed at this MacWorld. Did anyone see anything really new here? If you think movie downloads are "new" then research a company called MovieLink. If you think the MacBook Air is "new" look at what Toshiba was selling as long as 5 years ago. And a backup drive. Oooh. It sads me to say it, but I'm seeing more innovation out of Microsoft lately.

So, maybe for the wrong reasons, this WILL be a MacWorld I will long remember.

I agree with you completely, especially about the comparison with Starbucks. When Jobs resurrected Apple from the dead, they went through a period of making bold, classic products like the lampshade iMac or the TiBook. Today, the stuff they make is nice but it isn't bold or striking. I expect the Starbucks crowd will continue to buy more Apple notebooks, because these two companies seem to appeal to the same type of customer.

IceEnclosure · Jan 16, 2008, 08:06 PM

It's been about a year since I said "I need a laptop", currently I have two desktop systems. I'm now lusting after the MBAir, but I'd want a little more flexibility out of my portable, so I'll most surely go with a MacBook.

I would have the thing in a second though if I had mad cash (or maybe I'd wait for the first revision!).

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 16, 2008, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Who NEEDS to be so hung-up on a product they don't like?

Why are you taking my critique of the MBA so personally? I think it's you who needs to get a grip.

I am simply pointing out what I see as flaws in the functionality vs. form factor vs. price of the MBA. IN MY OPINION the MBA is going to be a niche market product, not a portable computer for the majority of people looking for a portable computer.

Despite the criticism of my posts ("who NEEDS this, who NEEDS that..."

), no one has answered my question: who really has a need for a computer that is this thin? I'm talking about function here. Who does the MBA cater to? For the vast majority of users looking for a portable computer, a MacBook or MBP seem like they would be perfectly fine.

Who NEEDS a 50" flat screen TV?

People who want to enjoy movies and TV in a nice home theatre environment. According to most market research, A LOT of people. A 22" CRT just doesn't cut it for people who really enjoy movies.

Who NEEDS a satellite TV system?

People who are tired of being screwed by cable companies for inferior service and people want NFL Sunday Ticket (i.e., A LOT of people).

Who NEEDS a $400 gaming system? or a $250 one for that matter?

I guess no one really NEEDS a gaming system. Got me there.

Who NEEDS a 160 GB MP3 player that would take 10's of thousands of dollars to fill up? (if all the music were bought legally).

People who want there entire music library and iTunes purchases with them everywhere they go. A 1GB shuffle isn't sufficient for A LOT of people.

Who NEEDS a Mac when there are so many cheaper and more readily accessible PC for purchase out there?

Don't be crazy - EVERYONE needs a Mac.

smacintush · Jan 16, 2008, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

People who want to enjoy movies and TV in a nice home theatre environment. According to most market research, A LOT of people. A 22" CRT just doesn't cut it for people who really enjoy movies.

Sounds an awful lot like a want to me.

People who are tired of being screwed by cable companies for inferior service and people want NFL Sunday Ticket (i.e., A LOT of people).

What do they NEED cable OR satellite or anything else for? It's so ridiculous to pay a monthly fee for TV when you can receive broadcast for free.

I guess no one really NEEDS a gaming system. Got me there

.

By the same logic you use above they do.

People who want there entire music library and iTunes purchases with them everywhere they go. A 1GB shuffle isn't sufficient for A LOT of people.

That word I bolded has come up again…seems like you MIGHT be on to something…

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 16, 2008, 08:36 PM

Point taken. Other than food, clothing, and shelter we don't really NEED anything do we?

Let me rephrase my question: Who does the MBA cater to? We have MacBooks which are highly portable and have a lot of functionality the MBA doesn't. We have MBPs for people who need portability AND power in a laptop. So, who does the MBA cater to, other than people who simply want a THIN computer that looks cool? If those are the people this is directed at, fine, but I don't think that's Apple's intention.

My whole point is that the MBA seems to only fill a niche market and will not be as widely adopted as some people think.

imitchellg5 · Jan 16, 2008, 09:01 PM

It may be a niche market, but it's an incredibly profitable one. There has been a void in the Apple product line since the 12" PBG4 was taken away. The MBA fills that void rather nicely. I know that my dad wants to get one, he's been looking for a true replacement for a 12" G4, and this is it.

TETENAL · Jan 16, 2008, 10:12 PM

Which is the better value?

Chuckit · Jan 16, 2008, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Which is the better value?

The MacBook Air, because I'm pretty sure the other one is a PC.

Mastrap · Jan 16, 2008, 10:40 PM

Hold on a second, it's got 8 (eight) LED status indicators.

Mac User #001 · Jan 16, 2008, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

The MacBook Air, because I'm pretty sure the other one is a PC.

Nice! That seriously made me LOL.

TETENAL · Jan 16, 2008, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Hold on a second, it's got 8 (eight) LED status indicators.

Yes, Power-on/Suspend, Battery Full/Charging/Low, Storage device Access, WLAN indicator, Bluetooth status and Caps Lock.
The MacBook Air probably has caps lock too though and the pulsing sleep LED, num lock and iSight, so the correct ratio would be 4 to 8, but the ASUS is still twice as good.

mdc · Jan 16, 2008, 10:57 PM

Wasn't there a PC reviewer who marked down an Apple laptop because it didn't have a HDD status light on it?

TETENAL, the MacBook doesn't have num lock since the new Apple laptop keyboards do not have a numeric keypad anymore. So the ASUS is now winning 8 to 3. Talk about value for money

I have to agree with Chuckit though. All of these comparisons to lightweight PCs are a little moot since at the end of the day, they're still PCs.
Yes, the Air is $700 more than the base MacBook and is less powerful, we get it, but that doesn't change the fact that some people might not mind the price, nor the specs.

besson3c · Jan 16, 2008, 11:02 PM

If I had a nickel for every time this argument has been hashed out over and over and over again, and that is: is the value of a computer its hardware or software, and if so how much is each worth to you?

If all you want to do is a particular job which a Windows or Mac laptop can fulfill and the choice of platforms is more or less irrelevant to you, obviously the PC laptops will win. If you value OS X enough to justify the price difference, obviously a Mac is worth it. It's really fairly simple.

- - e r i k - - · Jan 16, 2008, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

The MacBook Air, because I'm pretty sure the other one is a PC.

Amen.

I'd love a MacBook Air myself. I really don't understand the spec-jockeys here. This is obviously a secondary machine.

I bought the first 17" PowerBook and I still have it. I never use it anymore though. Not because it's not powerful enough for what I want to do with it (at the time I bought it as a primary machine), but because it's too damn bulky.

I wish I had a small, lightweight laptop for web browsing, e-mail, IM, writing and other lightweight tasks on the go, from the sofa or the bed. I get enough hardcore photoshopping, editing and FX work done on my MacPro at work and my 24" iMac at home.

I laugh at the armchair CEOs and the pretend pundits who have no clue about market share and understanding that the world does not always revolve around them. It happens in every Macworld thread, every gaming thread and especially in the format war thread. I'm glad this vocal minority has as little bearing on the real world as it has an understanding of it.

Mac User #001 · Jan 17, 2008, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Amen.

I'd love a MacBook Air myself. I really don't understand the spec-jockeys here. This is obviously a secondary machine.

I wish I had a small, lightweight laptop for web browsing, e-mail, IM, writing and other lightweight tasks on the go, from the sofa or the bed.

I know, thats what some people aren't getting. I could only imagine how comfortable it would be to be typing something on this or web browsing in front of the TV with this. It's only flaw is the price, otherwise everything is fine, and people need to stop complaining. If they think the Asus is so much better, then fine, have your PC.

mkral · Jan 17, 2008, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by MacosNerd

It is most definitely a niche product, given the specs of the computer. Really. I have a Laptop to work on photoshop, aperture and other applications. I find at times that the performance,especially with aperture a little sluggish. The MBA as everyone started calling it, has even less computing power and its GPU is not as powerful. You have no optical drive, the battery is integrated and the maximum ram seems to be rather limited too. The computer is not directed or aimed at the general computing public.

I'm not sure that I'd use Aperture as the app to judge mainstreamness by. an MBA will work just fine for most mainstream users, who probably use mail, safari, itunes, office & iphoto. If you're getting into Aperture, then the MBA probably isn't your cup of tea, but you're also probably not the "general computing public".

mkral · Jan 17, 2008, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by anogee

Those that have known Apple for all these years easily can see it. The "old" Apple we know wouldn't "brick" people's Apple devices if they had installed some software that Apple didn't approve of on it. The "old" Apple wouldn't charge $20 for a minor upgrade of software that should have been on a device in the first place. The "old" Apple considered it's customers to be its number one priority. The "new" Apple is a business before all else.

Forgive me if I can't recall, but who is this "old" apple of which you speak? The Old apple that I remember wouldn't have charged you $20 for the new apps, they would have made you buy a new ipod. I can't really think of a time when Apple made huge machine-specific software improvements & then gave them away. Plus, let's not forget that this same "new" apple also gave away a completely new system software upgrade to the apple TV owners, so they aren't all bad.

- - e r i k - - · Jan 17, 2008, 12:48 AM

Heck yes, where was the games for my 2nd gen iPod? Oh that's right, I had to buy the 3rd gen with the crappy buttons for that. Thank you "old" Apple.

Shaddim · Jan 17, 2008, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Which is the better value?

The other means I have to run Windows, or perhaps Linux. No, I'd rather stick with OS X.

besson3c · Jan 17, 2008, 01:17 AM

Shaddim,

How come we are supposed to guess your name? It says your name is Shaddim.

Face Ache · Jan 17, 2008, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

I laugh at the armchair CEOs and the pretend pundits who have no clue about market share and understanding that the world does not always revolve around them.

There was a market for the dalmation iMac. That doesn't make it right, DAMNIT!

Chuckit · Jan 17, 2008, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by Mac User #001

I know, thats what some people aren't getting. I could only imagine how comfortable it would be to be typing something on this or web browsing in front of the TV with this. It's only flaw is the price, otherwise everything is fine, and people need to stop complaining.

Its only flaw is the price, but the price is a huge flaw. It's like I'm telling you a $10,000 watermelon is not worth buying, and you're going, "Oh, that watermelon is perfectly delectable except for the price, so stop complaining."

smacintush · Jan 17, 2008, 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Shaddim,

How come we are supposed to guess your name? It says your name is Shaddim.

ort888 · Jan 17, 2008, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Its only flaw is the price, but the price is a huge flaw. It's like I'm telling you a $10,000 watermelon is not worth buying, and you're going, "Oh, that watermelon is perfectly delectable except for the price, so stop complaining."

Exactly. The Air is an awesome secondary computer. Just like a Porsche convertible is a great weekend car.

Shaddim · Jan 17, 2008, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by smacintush

He's lost, poor chap.

Shaddim · Jan 17, 2008, 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by ort888

Exactly. The Air is an awesome secondary computer. Just like a Porsche convertible is a great weekend car.

Exactly. I sure don't use my M3 when I'm pulling stumps.

OreoCookie · Jan 17, 2008, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Which is the better value?

How much does the Asus weigh?

ajprice · Jan 17, 2008, 04:39 AM

4.4lb, the MBA is 3lb. It's also thicker than a Macbook, nevermind an MBA.

analogika · Jan 17, 2008, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Which is the better value?

The Asus weighs 1/3 more and has quite a bit more than twice the bulk.

Which is the better value depends entirely upon what you value.
But the criteria by which that Asus book is a better value are the same criteria that make the MacBook way better value than *either* of them.

While the criteria that define the subnotebook market quite definitely make the MacBook Air the better of the two.

analogika · Jan 17, 2008, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Its only flaw is the price, but the price is a huge flaw. It's like I'm telling you a $10,000 watermelon is not worth buying, and you're going, "Oh, that watermelon is perfectly delectable except for the price, so stop complaining."

But the MacBook Air is perfectly acceptably priced FOR ITS MARKET SEGMENT!

So it's not worth the money TO YOU, but guess what, the iPod touch isn't worth it TO ME, and I certainly don't spend my time in every iPod touch thread, making sure that everybody else is aware of the fact that Apple makes an iPod that's not catered to my needs.

badidea · Jan 17, 2008, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Hold on a second, it's got 8 (eight) LED status indicators.

Does this mean it can Disco?

analogika · Jan 17, 2008, 07:00 AM

How many back-lit keys on a MacBook Air?

Take THAT, Asus!

Edit: Back home, I see?

badidea · Jan 17, 2008, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

Edit: Back home, I see?

Do you mean me?
No, I'm still in Bavaria. My flight back to Hamburg is tomorrow, like every Friday. I have no confirmed date yet when I will return - probably March or April!

(the location is static, you know - it's not IP based

)

RAILhead · Jan 17, 2008, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Its only flaw is the price, but the price is a huge flaw. It's like I'm telling you a $10,000 watermelon is not worth buying, and you're going, "Oh, that watermelon is perfectly delectable except for the price, so stop complaining."

Price for who? You?

Not for me, though, so you must say that the price is a "huge flaw" only to you.

MacosNerd · Jan 17, 2008, 08:21 AM

Ahh this is more like it. I knew we could achieve a high level of whining and fighting.

I've stated this before, I like the MBA, I think it fills out Apple's line up. I'm not sure why the critics seem to belittle those who take this position. Its almost a personal affront by apple to have released this model.

Is it a good value, only if you want/need it.
Is a MacBook Pro a good value, only if you want/need it
any difference? No, each model is a solution to a problem. One model may not be a good fit for one person but it may be a good fit for someone else.

What is really surprising is people are comparing prices, since when has apple been the cheapest and since when has Mac users start thinking of getting the cheapest computer.

I bought a Mac over a PC for a lot of reasons, the price wasn't one of them.

As for Time Capsule, I think this is a stroke of genius, you not only get a wireless base station, you get an external disk to boot. I'm leaning very heavily to picking up this baby for myself. Its just what the doctor ordered

Back to my main point that started this thread.
Here's two items that I'm disappointed in that they were no shows at MWSF

An update to apple displays and of course (have I said this before), either an update to the iMac or a midrange desktop that could fit inbetween the MacPro and iMac. Of course the latter doesn't make sense in apple's current line up, but I was still hoping. I really like my MacBook Pro, but at times I do notice it a sluggish for some tasks. Enter a faster iMac or new desktop model. Well that didn't happen but time is on my side.

mdc · Jan 17, 2008, 09:11 AM

Does anyone think that the updated displays with built in iSight might not work that well?
I'm sitting at work in front of a 24" monitor and my eyes stare at the middle of the monitor. If there was a camera in the top bezel of this monitor I would have to sit up a lot higher so that the camera wouldn't catch just the top of my head.

MacosNerd · Jan 17, 2008, 09:27 AM

I would guess that they would calibrate the camera so that it does not aim straight ahead but may "look" a few down a bit.

Mastrap · Jan 17, 2008, 09:58 AM

^ Works fine on my 24" iMac. The only thing is that when you're video conferencing you're never looking the other person in the eye, so to speak. Because they're on your screen, and the camera is above the screen, you're looking away from them. The only solution would be to put the camera mid-screen.

ctt1wbw · Jan 17, 2008, 10:14 AM

Dudes! Can we just agree on something here? Please?

IF YOU DON'T WANT IT, DON'T BUY IT. STOP JUSTIFYING YOUR HATRED OF THE MACBOOK AIR TO EVERYONE. WE DON'T GIVE A ****.

MacosNerd · Jan 17, 2008, 10:21 AM

^ dude - try a little decaf. No need to really go off the deep end.

ctt1wbw · Jan 17, 2008, 10:27 AM

What? I've only had a pot and a half already!

MacosNerd · Jan 17, 2008, 10:40 AM

I know the feeling I'n bouncing off the walls as I type

ctt1wbw · Jan 17, 2008, 10:56 AM

Almost 20 years in the Navy will make you drink pots of the stuff on a daily basis.

brassplayersrock² · Jan 17, 2008, 11:34 AM

damn addict

I agree with ya though. To many people are getting all huffy about a product they won't be buying, and if they do, they'll probably start praising it. I for one won't be buying it. No need for one
yes I said huffy. deal with it.

C.A.T.S. CEO · Jan 17, 2008, 11:36 AM

I want a MBA, but I'll have to see how long it takes to boot before I am sure.

brassplayersrock² · Jan 17, 2008, 11:37 AM

do you don't need a mba? if not, don't waste your parents money

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 17, 2008, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

Dudes! Can we just agree on something here? Please?

IF YOU DON'T WANT IT, DON'T BUY IT. STOP JUSTIFYING YOUR HATRED OF THE MACBOOK AIR TO EVERYONE. WE DON'T GIVE A ****.

CHILL OUT. The title of this thread is "So let the whining begin". This thread is all about complaining about the products Apple did and did not announce at the Expo. If you don't give a ****, don't read this thread - easy solution.

Mac User #001 · Jan 17, 2008, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by mdc

Does anyone think that the updated displays with built in iSight might not work that well?
I'm sitting at work in front of a 24" monitor and my eyes stare at the middle of the monitor. If there was a camera in the top bezel of this monitor I would have to sit up a lot higher so that the camera wouldn't catch just the top of my head.

Yea, I've thought of that. But like MacosNerd said, they'd probably aim it down.

I've got (or rather had, my mic broke) a problem on a similar note. How do you voice chat without echos? I can only think of wearing headphones.

TETENAL · Jan 17, 2008, 11:50 AM

I say wast your parents money while you can! When they retire they might get the idea that they have to make a trip around the world and you'll inherit nothing.

brassplayersrock² · Jan 17, 2008, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I say wast your parents money while you can! When they retire they might get the idea that they have to make a trip around the world and you'll inherit nothing.

sorry tetenal but I thought this was funny

wast |wəst; wäst|
archaic or dialect second person singular past of be .