[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

So when it benefits the Blu-Ray camp, the PS3 install base means they have a TON of player sales. But if you bring up attach rates, suddenly they don't count? I don't buy it.

The install base for Blu-ray IS larger, but your attempt to compare a device like the PS3 with a stand alone HD-DVD player is foolish at best. The potential that those PS3 users will buy HD movies is there... but playing movies isn't the only thing the device can do... in fact, it's not even the primary purpose of the device!

You are trying to compare apples and oranges and your "attachment" comment is laughable at best. Why on earth would the movie industry care about attachment rates? Because "in the future" they may sell more movies? IMHO, if I were a movie studio and had to pick one format or another, only a fool would pick HD-DVD. Why? Because they sell more disks.

Finally, if you "don't buy it" you are doing the same thing. When HD-DVDs numbers are low, you say the attachment rate is higher... but when it's convenient, you say you sell more stand alone players (which isn't true any longer).

The fact is, Blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Considering Vizio is now the top selling LCD HDTV, I'm not sure you can say the average cost is $1000+. And how do you figure Blu-Ray has more movies that "most people want"? The number of releases is pretty close to even (and I think HD DVD is getting ready to outnumber BD).[/b]

You may have me on the cheap "HD" players (720p stuff that I'm sure sells like hotcakes to those that aren't in the know).

I based my movies that most people want on what sells (AKA,Top-Grossing Distributors from 1995 to 2007 The Numbers - Top-Grossing Distributors 1995 to 2007 ).

Originally Posted by jokell82 

I've said from the beginning that I think this will end with both formats coexisting, and nothing recently has changed my view. I'd still rather have HD DVD the clear winner, but I doubt Sony's ever going to stop making BD movies. So given that scenario I'd definitely agree with you - hybrid players will become the standard.

Why would Sony stop? IMHO, they are still winning the overall war. It basically took Microsoft to even make this a real battle... which really only breathed life back into HD-DVD IMHO. I would have loved to have seen HD-DVD win out over Blu-ray, I just don't see it happening.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

I for one would be very surprised if Paramount/Dreamworks swtich didn't involve some concessions (monetary or otherwise), but I also think it would be pretty naive to think that the same type of thing doesn't happen on both sides.

Yup.

It basically took Microsoft to even make this a real battle...

If you're talking about the Paramount deal, I will reiterate that the VP of MS has already gone on record to say that MS did not pay Paramount anything.

It could be someone else, but it wasn't MS.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

It's a convergence device because it requires a computer to work with it. If you could stream DVD or HD to it you would. If games were downloadable to it kids would. YouTube is a form of web browsing. Users and potential buyers have requested a TV tuner to be built into it. You think that's all crap that consumers don't need simply for the sake of argument.

You really think someone would play games on an AppleTV? Apple knows that a) consumers who just want to play media don't want to pay extra for games they don't want to play b) not everyone has kids and c) they ship a remote completely unsuitable for playing games.

You can't play DVD's on an AppleTV. You can make excuses but obviously Apple didn't think it was something consumers wanted, or else they would make it a feature. YouTube is not a web browser, that's a pretty poor excuse. And the TV tuner crowd (me included) seems to have died down. Honestly, I don't know what I'd record. I'd just like the AppleTV to download my season passes directly honestly.

The AppleTV represents the Apple way. Do one thing and do it well. The iPod excels at just playing music. The iMac excels at just being a computer. And the iPhone seems to be Apple's first grand experiment into the realm of a real all in one device. And you notice, they haven't exactly scrambled to replace their iPod line with an all iPhone line.

[Eug]

Hmmm... Shakeup at Warner?

Steve Nickerson, Warner Home Video's ubiquitous next-generation disc guru, is leaving the company to pursue other opportunities that will be announced shortly.

...with the launch of Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD, he became Warner's point man for the new formats as senior vp high-definition media. He was a regular speaker at industry trade shows and conferences and talked up the studio's dual-format approach as giving the consumer the ultimate choice and the studio a chance to maximize high-def disc revenue.

This is apparently the guy who oversaw those stillborn TotalHD discs.

At least one major insider claims his leaving has nothing to do with Blu-ray vs. HD DVD though.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Hmmm... Shakeup at Warner?

Steve Nickerson, Warner Home Video's ubiquitous next-generation disc guru, is leaving the company to pursue other opportunities that will be announced shortly.

...with the launch of Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD, he became Warner's point man for the new formats as senior vp high-definition media. He was a regular speaker at industry trade shows and conferences and talked up the studio's dual-format approach as giving the consumer the ultimate choice and the studio a chance to maximize high-def disc revenue.

This is apparently the guy who oversaw those stillborn TotalHD discs.

At least one major insider claims his leaving has nothing to do with Blu-ray vs. HD DVD though.

Steve came to Warner from Toshiba. Amir is a VP at MSFT. He is known for spreading FUD and denying things that are later shown to be true.

Several members at AVS have reported having their orders for WB titles on HD DVD being cancelled and others reporting that shipping dates for other titles are appearing as unknown.

TotalHD is dead and expect an announcement on Monday.
*Hint*
You better stock up on your local supplies of HD DVD from WB while supplies last.

Payback is a biatch isn't it?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Several members at AVS have reported having their orders for WB titles on HD DVD being cancelled and others reporting that shipping dates for other titles are appearing as unknown.

There are also rumors on the AVSForums that he left because he is unhappy that Warner is going to go HD-DVD exclusive.

I don't really belief in rumors either way, but I think it would be simply hilarious is Paramount was only the first part of the HD-DVD exclusivity payoffs. I think Aristotles would simply implode.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Steve came to Warner from Toshiba. Amir is a VP at MSFT. He is known for spreading FUD and denying things that are later shown to be true.

He definitely ain't perfect, but as far as I'm concerned he's the most valuable poster at AVS hands down, and one of the very few insiders that actually has the guts to tell people who he really is.

Several members at AVS have reported having their orders for WB titles on HD DVD being cancelled and others reporting that shipping dates for other titles are appearing as unknown.

This applies to both HD DVD and Blu-ray discs at Warner's site:

Due to a system upgrade implementation, we are unable to ship orders placed between August 8th – September 4th until after September 5th.

The interesting part is that CEDIA starts on Sept. 5. Hmmm...

TotalHD is dead and expect an announcement on Monday.
*Hint*
You better stock up on your local supplies of HD DVD from WB while supplies last.

Payback is a biatch isn't it?

I'd expect WB to stay neutral for the time being, but if they were to go exclusive, I'm not entirely sure which direction they'd go. However, I would have guessed they lean HD DVD, considering they're already HD DVD exclusive on several titles (Matrix, Batman Begins, etc.)

With this format war though, on never knows...

[aristotles]

I can understand that a VP at MSFT would cheer for his own team but he has deliberately misled the buying public on several occasions. He insisted that Disney was going to go neutral last year and insisted that BD 50 would never see the light of day.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

I can understand that a VP at MSFT would cheer for his own team but he has deliberately misled the buying public on several occasions. He insisted that Disney was going to go neutral last year

Link please. I don't recall him saying that, but I don't read every single post he makes.

and insisted that BD 50 would never see the light of day.

As far as I remember, he dissed BD50 severely but didn't specifically say it would never see the light of day. He just said it was had major teething problems and it would take a heluvalot for it to get to true low cost high commercial volume production levels.

And as far I can tell, that is true. Even now, many 3rd party replicators won't do BD50.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Link please. I don't recall him saying that, but I don't read every single post he makes.


As far as I remember, he dissed BD50 severely but didn't specifically say it would never see the light of day. He just said it was had major teething problems and it would take a heluvalot for it to get to true low cost high commercial volume production levels.

And as far I can tell, that is true. Even now, many 3rd party replicators won't do BD50.

I don't have the time to search AVS right now. Look in blu-ray.com for a post near the end of the Blu-ray loyalty thread.

As for BD. I own quite a few 50GB BDs. Sorry, but that was complete FUD from Amir.

[aristotles]

Do you guys remember this story from 120 days ago about cheap HD Media players being ordered by Wal-mart? Do you remember how some dismissed mention of a Blue DVD player as being either Blu-ray or HD DVD? I think some of you forgot that they mentioned it would read 50GB discs.

That is the capacity of a dual player BD while HD DVD only goes up to 30GB in practice and recently 51GB in the lab. If I recall correctly, there has been no confirmation of playback of 51 GB discs on existing players or their viability for mass production while 50GB Blu-ray discs are a reality. then there is the incongreity between 51 and 50 and that the feat in the lab had not been reached yet at the time.

Here is a link to the old story:
N4G.com : Chinese Development recieved order for Blu-ray Players

Now there is something that makes this old rumour more interesting. An apparent blu-ray insider has hinted that a Chinese 199.00 is coming to Wal-mart. It appeared as a message in Chinese mentioning saving money, Watching National Lampoons Vacation with some of his friends where the Griswall's go to Wally world and how it would have cost more than 199.00 to take his 20 friends to see it at the theatre.

For those of you who don't know, Wally World is a slang term used within Wal-mart corporate culture to refer to themselves.

This hint was posted after the Paramount announcement and it is possible that the Paramount move may have been damage control for this and other upcoming announcements.

PS. Roses are red, violets are blue and so is Weinstein.
PPS. Think "Grindhouse"

[icruise]

I'm really not following you anymore, Aristotles.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I'd expect WB to stay neutral for the time being, but if they were to go exclusive, I'm not entirely sure which direction they'd go. However, I would have guessed they lean HD DVD, considering they're already HD DVD exclusive on several titles (Matrix, Batman Begins, etc.)

You know, at this stage, getting Warner to go exclusive would be one of the smartest things for the HD-DVD camp to do.

Disney is the big fish that HD-DVD needs to get to go neutral. Once that is done, the war is basically over in favor of HD-DVD. But the HD-DVD camp can't afford to buy off Disney outright. But, if the HD-DVD camp bought out Warner, the pressure on Disney to go neutral would be enormous. Sure, you'd still have a hold out in Twentieth Century Fox, and we all know Sony would be the last studio to fall, but if Warner also went HD-DVD exclusive, we'd likely see a cascade of neutrality move through the Bluray camp.

Again, I'm not betting on Warner changing their plans in the near future, but if the HD-DVD does get Warner to go neutral, it would be an extremely smart move. Getting Paramount to go exclusive has put them in a lot better of a position.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by icruise 

I'm really not following you anymore, Aristotles.

This one says blu-ray and mentions 50GB capacity disc playback (Blu-ray Double layer)
N4G.com : Chinese Development recieved order for Blu-ray Players
HD DVD in this one:
The Wal-Mart $299 HD DVD player on the way - Engadget

They are referring to the same rumour but the earlier points toward blu-ray visa-vie the 50 GB capacity.

Cheap Chinese BD player == HD DVD Armageddon.

Clear?

Weinstein distributes Grindhouse and it has been confirmed for Blu-ray.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by goMac 

You really think someone would play games on an AppleTV? Apple knows that a) consumers who just want to play media don't want to pay extra for games they don't want to play b) not everyone has kids and c) they ship a remote completely unsuitable for playing games.

Oh God you are so arrogant to suppose you know so much about everything, even what Apple "knows", and then you come up with such incredibly daft responses. Just another very vain and insecure internet surfer.

Read what everyone has known for months:

Games on Apple TV Confirmed? - Strings in the iTunes code refer to Apple TV games - Softpedia
AppleInsider | Briefly: Apple seeks game artists; Apple TV prep begins at retail
Apple TV might have games, eventually
Analyst sees Apple offering subscriptions for games, videos

And the modding community has already been gaming on Apple TV for months too.

You can't play DVD's on an AppleTV.

You don't say. Read that post again.

YouTube is not a web browser, that's a pretty poor excuse.

It is a browser. It browses content over the web.

And the TV tuner crowd (me included) seems to have died down. Honestly, I don't know what I'd record.

When someone says they don't know what they'd record with a TV tuner I know they aren't giving an appropriate answer.

It's a convergence device. That is what I said it was and that is what it is. Move on to Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Now we get your bizarre knowledge of Hollywood and how Toshiba (because that's where the pay offs and investment is mostly coming from) should win Disney over.

Disney is the big fish that HD-DVD needs to get to go neutral. Once that is done, the war is basically over in favor of HD-DVD.

Remarkable. Remarkable. An electronics company with a losing format is going to win over the big boys whose Blu-ray sales are surging ahead every month.

I just need to go shake my head for hours trying to figure out how a person such as yourself even comes up with these ideas.

Clue time: The suits at Paramount and Dreamworks are laughing their way to the bank right now and wondering how stupid the HD DVD camp are. Their best films and top selling titles from Spielberg are not part of the "limited time" deal.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Oh God you are so arrogant to suppose you know so much about everything, even what Apple "knows", and then you come up with such incredibly daft responses. Just another very vain and insecure internet surfer.

Hey. I'm not the one that decided that the PS3 follows Apple's design philosophy. If you can't take criticism to your ideas, don't post them.

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Read what everyone has known for months:

Games on Apple TV Confirmed? - Strings in the iTunes code refer to Apple TV games - Softpedia
AppleInsider | Briefly: Apple seeks game artists; Apple TV prep begins at retail
Apple TV might have games, eventually
Analyst sees Apple offering subscriptions for games, videos

Yeah, we're yet to see those games...

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

And the modding community has already been gaming on Apple TV for months too.

So?

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

It is a browser. It browses content over the web.

Seriously? This is your argument? Fine. The AppleTV doesn't have an application supporting the parsing of HTML over an HTTP connection. Specific enough for you?

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

When someone says they don't know what they'd record with a TV tuner I know they aren't giving an appropriate answer.

I thought about it. All the series I watch I subscribe to on iTunes anyway. Why would I want to record them again? All Apple needs to do is upgrade the iTunes store to HD, and I'll be happy...

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

It's a convergence device.

The AppleTV just plays iTunes content, aside from an YouTube update that wasn't even part of the original software. That's pretty gosh darn close to the definition of a one trick pony.

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

That is what I said it was and that is what it is. Move on to Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Now we get your bizarre knowledge of Hollywood and how Toshiba (because that's where the pay offs and investment is mostly coming from) should win Disney over.

Who died and made you Steve Jobs?

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Remarkable. Remarkable. An electronics company with a losing format is going to win over the big boys whose Blu-ray sales are surging ahead every month.

I just need to go shake my head for hours trying to figure out how a person such as yourself even comes up with these ideas.

Well, I was right about Nintendo, and I recall similar abuse from the same people for my viewpoints on the Wii... Not to say I couldn't be wrong here...

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Clue time: The suits at Paramount and Dreamworks are laughing their way to the bank right now and wondering how stupid the HD DVD camp are. Their best films and top selling titles from Spielberg are not part of the "limited time" deal.

Hey. If they want to laugh themselves to the bank that's fine by me. It's put the HD-DVD camp in a far better position. Everyone's laughing except the Bluray camp it seems.

[PaperNotes]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Hey. I'm not the one that decided that the PS3 follows Apple's design philosophy.

Neither was I. Apple didn't invent the all-in-one design philosophy.

Yeah, we're yet to see those games...

We're yet to see Apple distribute movies in 1080p but it is still on the roster.

I thought about it. All the series I watch I subscribe to on iTunes anyway. Why would I want to record them again? All Apple needs to do is upgrade the iTunes store to HD, and I'll be happy...

You're not the only Apple TV user. You're speaking for yourself.

Who died and made you Steve Jobs?

Who died and made you say stupid things like a second rate (or even third rate by the look of sales figures for their computers and other devices) electronics company like Toshiba could win Disney over to HD DVD? Scratch that. Who died and made you think HD DVD even has a chance to catch up with Blu-ray now?

Hey. If they want to laugh themselves to the bank that's fine by me. It's put the HD-DVD camp in a far better position. Everyone's laughing except the Bluray camp it seems.

Good Lord. Just when you could have taken your foot out of your mouth you go and swallow and digest it completely. HD-DVD is in a worse position because of the deal. Not only have they blown $150 million down a black hole but the best Paramount and Dreamworks movies will still be Blu-ray because the only really good filmmaker under their umbrella is Spielberg. Some of their top selling discs are his movies. And it is a limited time deal. So big deal and a big waste of money. Blu-ray will keep surging ahead.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

I don't have the time to search AVS right now. Look in blu-ray.com for a post near the end of the Blu-ray loyalty thread.

As for BD. I own quite a few 50GB BDs. Sorry, but that was complete FUD from Amir.

OMG. You want us to use Blu-ray.com as a source of information about an MS exec? As might be expected, it's a Blu-ray fanboy site.

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Do you guys remember this story from 120 days ago about cheap HD Media players being ordered by Wal-mart? Do you remember how some dismissed mention of a Blue DVD player as being either Blu-ray or HD DVD? I think some of you forgot that they mentioned it would read 50GB discs.

If you look on Fuh Yuan's website, they list an HD DVD loader. No mention of any Blu-ray loader anywhere. Seriously, you have to do better than that. By the way, the original article referred to "lan guang HD DVD", which means "blue laser HD DVD". In case you didn't know, HD DVD uses blue lasers.

Now there is something that makes this old rumour more interesting. An apparent blu-ray insider has hinted that a Chinese 199.00 is coming to Wal-mart.

Yeah, his name is Beatboy among others who said the player is a Blu-ray player, and he is the same guy that said that Transformers would win the war for Blu-ray, and that Universal was going neutral. If you believe ANYTHING he says, you have to be very, very gullible. Everyone else thinks that if it happens at all, it will be HD DVD... cuz well... the original article specifically said HD DVD, and the company said HD DVD, too.

[*TL]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I'd expect WB to stay neutral for the time being, but if they were to go exclusive, I'm not entirely sure which direction they'd go. However, I would have guessed they lean HD DVD, considering they're already HD DVD exclusive on several titles (Matrix, Batman Begins, etc.)

I've always considered WB to be neutral-leaning HD. They were originally HD only, but BD convinced them to go neutral. WB has long ties with the DVD forum, but that goes back primarily to Warren Lieberfarb, who's long gone.

If WB goes exclusive either way, I think it will be a telling indicator of which way the winds are blowing.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by Eug 

OMG. You want us to use Blu-ray.com as a source of information about an MS exec? As might be expected, it's a Blu-ray fanboy site.

Have you been to AVS lately? It is an HD DVD infested mad house and Amir cannot be challenged by anyone. They might as well rename it AVMS. Several long time poster have given up on the site. I'm guessing that you feel right at home there.

If you look on Fuh Yuan's website, they list an HD DVD loader. No mention of any Blu-ray loader anywhere. Seriously, you have to do better than that. By the way, the original article referred to "lan guang HD DVD", which means "blue laser HD DVD". In case you didn't know, HD DVD uses blue lasers.

In case you did not know, 50GB is not a HD DVD capacity. I don't really know or care about Fuh Yuan but look at the link from 120+ days ago. It mentions 50 GB capacity but no mention of Fuh Yuan IIRC. Also consider that Fuh Yuan could have HD DVD products listed while working on a secret deal between Wal-mart and the BDA.

Are we going to stop going over Toshiba talking points and start talking about reality? What do you find so compelling about 30GB, lower bandwidth, less CE support and a lack of of diverse studio support? How do you see HD DVD succeeding with sales of a player through wal-mart without family friendly Disney?

It makes far more sense that a low priced Taiwan or China produced Blu-ray playerwould launched into Wal-mart with a bunch of family friendly Disney launch titles.

[Super Mario]

The Product Wars fought on Amazon.com

Amazon customers favor Blu-ray right across the board even though HD DVDs have come down cheaper than Blu-ray movies. There are four HD DVD titles in the Amazon next gen Top 10 and only two of those are movies. In the top 100 sales of next gen discs....72 are Blu-ray titles. They're taking nearly 3/4 of all next gen sales. On Amazon the lead is 3:1.

[Super Mario]

More Blu-ray drives shipping in PCs now. There are seven manufacturers shipping systems with Blu-ray or have it as a BTO. Two companies offer systems with HD-DVD drives.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Neither was I. Apple didn't invent the all-in-one design philosophy.

Yeah... You still were comparing the PS3 to Apple's all in one design philosophy.

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

We're yet to see Apple distribute movies in 1080p but it is still on the roster.

Apple distributing in HD is the next obvious step. I'm not sure we'll see AppleTV games though...

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

You're not the only Apple TV user. You're speaking for yourself.

Actually, I was convinced that the AppleTV didn't need a tuner by other Apple TV users, and as Apple has noted, users often don't know what they want anyway... What sense does it make that Apple would shift the focus away from the iTunes Store anyway?

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Who died and made you say stupid things like a second rate (or even third rate by the look of sales figures for their computers and other devices) electronics company like Toshiba could win Disney over to HD DVD? Scratch that. Who died and made you think HD DVD even has a chance to catch up with Blu-ray now?

If this is how the Bluray camp reacts to losing support from a studio...

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Good Lord. Just when you could have taken your foot out of your mouth you go and swallow and digest it completely. HD-DVD is in a worse position because of the deal. Not only have they blown $150 million down a black hole but the best Paramount and Dreamworks movies will still be Blu-ray because the only really good filmmaker under their umbrella is Spielberg. Some of their top selling discs are his movies. And it is a limited time deal. So big deal and a big waste of money. Blu-ray will keep surging ahead.

As far as I'm concerned, all exclusivity deals are limited time.

Couldn't I say the same thing about the Bluray movie vendors? Maybe they just think you guys are suckers and are just waiting to charge for your movies all over again when they switch to HD-DVD. Heck, Sony would have the most to gain out of all the companies. They'd make everyone buy new PS3s.

But regardless, the entire argument is kind of silly. Paramount gets what they want ($150 million), and the HD-DVD camp gets what they want (exclusivity for the time being). No one is upset except the Bluray camp, and apparently you're telling us things like it's the first time we've heard them and we should be shocked. "Paramount could switch back to Bluray? REALLY?"

[Super Mario]

Go goMac!!!!!!!!! You are the man!!!!

You are the man who is still too ignorant to acknowledge Paramount and Dreamwork's Spielberg movies will still be on Blu-ray and are their best movies

Blu-ray leading on Amazon 3:1

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by *TL 

I've always considered WB to be neutral-leaning HD. They were originally HD only, but BD convinced them to go neutral. WB has long ties with the DVD forum, but that goes back primarily to Warren Lieberfarb, who's long gone.

If WB goes exclusive either way, I think it will be a telling indicator of which way the winds are blowing.

Everyone would acknowledge that Warner was initially HD DVD exclusive and that they have been HD DVD leaning but the executive who left was came to Warner from Toshiba and he was a proponent of TotalHD. That initiative had zero support from from Blu-ray supporters and other BDA members. If you look at the sales of 300 as any example, you can see that TrueHD would have ended up benefiting HD DVD more than Blu-ray as it would have prolonged the format war by artificially subsidizing HD DVD sales through TrueHD sales to reluctant Blu-ray purchasers and TrueHD would have handicapped the Blu-ray side to 25GB single layer. All of this points to him being a HD DVD supporter.

Why did this guy leave so suddenly? The only reason I can think of is that Warner is about to either abandon HD DVD or switch to Blu-ray leaning. The sales of 300 may have sent a message to them about which way the wind is blowing and we may see previously HD DVD titles going neutral and some titles going Blu-ray exclusive for technical and economic reasons.

I also must insist that we put the DVD forum issue to bed.

Here is the list of BDA Board members:
Board of Directors

Apple, Inc. - long time DVD forum member
Dell
HP - long time DVD forum member
Hitachi - long time DVD forum member
LG - long time DVD forum member
Mitsubishi Electric - long time DVD forum member
Panasonic - long time DVD forum member under the name Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
Pioneer - long time DVD forum member
Philips - long time DVD forum member
Samsung - long time DVD forum member
Sharp - long time DVD forum member
Sony - long time DVD forum member
Sun Microsystems
TDK - long time DVD forum member
Thomson - long time DVD forum member
Twentieth Century Fox - long time DVD forum member
Walt Disney - long time DVD forum member
Warner Bros. - long time DVD forum member


Are you seeing the pattern here? Being a member of the DVD forum means nothing in terms of this war. The HD DVD promotion Group is a subset of the larger DVD Forum. Sony and Matsushita (Panasonic) developed and tried to standardize Blu-ray through the DVD forum long before HD DVD was a glimmer in Toshiba's eye. they approached Warner and Toshiba about it but were turned down.

Also, Toshiba and MSFT were only able to push HD DVD through the DVD forum after a rule change as most of the steering commitee members were already BDA members or supporters of the format.

Here is the DVD forum steering committee membership list.
http://www.dvdforum.org/about-steering.htm
Steering Committee Companies
(Tenure: Feb. 2006 to Feb. 2008)

1. Hitachi, Ltd. - BDA board member coming out with Blu-ray camcorders
2. IBM Corporation
3. Industrial Technology Research Institute
4. Intel Corporation
5. LG Electronics Inc. - BDA board member
6. Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd. - Blu-ray co-founder and BDA board member
7. Microsoft Corporation
8. Mitsubishi Electric Corporation - BDA Board member
9. NEC Corporation - BDA Contributor
10. PIONEER CORPORATION - BDA Board member
11. Royal Philips Electronics -BDA board member
12. SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD. -- BDA board member
13. SANYO Electric Co., Ltd. - BDA member
14. SHARP CORPORATION -BDA board member
15. Sony Corporation -BDA board member and cofounder of BD
16. THOMSON -BDA board member
17. Toshiba Corporation
18. Victor Company of Japan, Limited -BDA contributor
19. Walt Disney Pictures and Television - BDA board member
20. Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc. -BDA board member

Are we all in agreement on this point that HD DVD is a small subset of the DVD forum and not all DVD forum member automatically support HD DVD?

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Are we all in agreement on this point that HD DVD is a small subset of the DVD forum and not all DVD forum member automatically support HD DVD?

Agreed totally. But try convincing those who still won't accept solid sales figures.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

You are the man who is still too ignorant to acknowledge Paramount and Dreamwork's Spielberg movies will still be on Blu-ray and are their best movies

Why should I be upset over that? Spielberg has said he's releasing on HD-DVD too. Since when has gaining exclusive support been a bad thing?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Have you been to AVS lately? It is an HD DVD infested mad house and Amir cannot be challenged by anyone. They might as well rename it AVMS. Several long time poster have given up on the site. I'm guessing that you feel right at home there.

In case you did not know, 50GB is not a HD DVD capacity. I don't really know or care about Fuh Yuan but look at the link from 120+ days ago. It mentions 50 GB capacity but no mention of Fuh Yuan IIRC. Also consider that Fuh Yuan could have HD DVD products listed while working on a secret deal between Wal-mart and the BDA.

The original article (in Chinese) made no reference to 50 GB capacity for the purported Wal-Mart player. It also specifically said "HD DVD". Subsequent English articles referred to capacity differences with the various hardware, but guess what, many referred to the original Chinese article without actually knowing its content, or else referred to misleading blog posts, etc. about the article.

The key point here is not to rely on fanboy sites for your information. Go to the source. And that's what was done. Several Chinese readers looked at the article, and concluded it was strictly referring to an HD DVD player.

Yes, it's quite possible that this player may never see the light of day. It's also possible that Fuh Yuan or other Chinese manufacturers are working on a cheap BD player solution, but the fact of the matter is that the article didn't say anything about that. Anyone claiming that is simply spouting fiction, or else repeating other people's fiction.

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Go goMac!!!!!!!!! You are the man!!!!

You are the man who is still too ignorant to acknowledge Paramount and Dreamwork's Spielberg movies will still be on Blu-ray and are their best movies

My suspicion is that Spielberg movies won't be released on any format until the war is won by somebody. He wants his movies to be format neutral, but Paramount isn't format neutral anymore.

Originally Posted by aristotles

Here is the list of BDA Board members:
Board of Directors

Apple, Inc. - long time DVD forum member

I find it rather interesting that Apple didn't add Blu-ray support to iLife '08. Even after all this time with the BDA group, Apple still supports HD DVD better than it supports Blu-ray.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by Eug 

My suspicion is that Spielberg movies won't be released on any format until the war is won by somebody. He wants his movies to be format neutral, but Paramount isn't format neutral anymore.

I find it rather interesting that Apple didn't add Blu-ray support to iLife '08. Even after all this time with the BDA group, Apple still supports HD DVD better than it supports Blu-ray.

Close Encounters of the First Kind is definitely coming to Blu-ray as an exclusive. Any other films are still up in the air.

Are we talking about DVD Studio pro which is part of the expensive Final Cut Studio pro and not available separately? I would not expect any consumer to use buy FCP Studio pro. Apple has offered no support to either format on the consumer level but there is a small chance that Apple might release a patch to iMovie 08 to support the new Hitachi BD recorder and BD/HDD cameras.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I find it rather interesting that Apple didn't add Blu-ray support to iLife '08. Even after all this time with the BDA group, Apple still supports HD DVD better than it supports Blu-ray.

I've already corrected you on Apple's use of the term HD DVD and you fled from the conversation when I showed HD DVD according to Apple's use of the term can be a h.264 hi res video in Quicktime .mov format recorded on a regular DVD-5. That's their use of the term and in that format won't play on any player that doesn't support mpeg4 with a Quicktime wrapper.



Mac OS X and iLife supports any recordable disc as long as you have the drivers for the device. There's no explicit mention of HD-DVD or Blu-ray disc formats in iLife.

And as pointed out above Blu-ray's lead has increased furthermore ever since last week's new of a 2:1 lead.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Apple has offered no support to either format on the consumer level

He was being deceitful by mentioning iLife in the same breath as HD-DVD. That's all they can do now that Blu-ray's lead has increased in a week from 2 to 1 to almost 3 to 1.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

I've already corrected you on Apple's use of the term HD DVD and you fled from the conversation when I showed HD DVD according to Apple's use of the term can be a h.264 hi res video in Quicktime .mov format recorded on a regular DVD-5. That's their use of the term and in that format won't play on any player that doesn't support mpeg4 with a Quicktime wrapper.

Again, if you choose the proper HD DVD settings, discs produced with DVD Studio Pro play just fine in Toshiba standalone HD DVD players. These players have no QuickTime or DivX support at all.

ie. Stop with the misinformation.

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

He was being deceitful by mentioning iLife in the same breath as HD-DVD. That's all they can do now that Blu-ray's lead has increased in a week from 2 to 1 to almost 3 to 1.

Deceitful? It's absolute truth. With Apple software today, they have no Blu-ray support, but have some HD DVD support. I was just alluding to the contention by some (IIRC) a while back that iLife '08 would gain Blu-ray support. It didn't happen.

Oh and how about your above statement about a QuickTime support being needed to play these discs? I'll just say that either you're completely out to lunch on DVD Studio Pro, or else you're intentionally misleading. It's sad when I can only hope for your sake that you're completely out to lunch on this.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

I've already corrected you on Apple's use of the term HD DVD and you fled from the conversation when I showed HD DVD according to Apple's use of the term can be a h.264 hi res video in Quicktime .mov format recorded on a regular DVD-5. That's their use of the term and in that format won't play on any player that doesn't support mpeg4 with a Quicktime wrapper.

Again, as Macworld noted in their review of DVD Studio Pro, HD discs created by DVD Studio Pro will only play in HD-DVD players, and not Bluray players.

[PaperNotes]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Again, if you choose the proper HD DVD settings, discs produced with DVD Studio Pro play just fine in Toshiba standalone HD DVD players. These players have no QuickTime or DivX support at all.

It's right there for everyone to see. DVD Studio Pro's use of the abbreviation HD DVD doesn't simply refer to the HD-DVD disc format. It applies to all high definition video that can be exported to DVD or blue laser drives. Apple says "blue laser writers". They do not say "HD-DVD writers".

It's also right there in the snapshot above that HD DVD with a Quicktime extension is being written to a DVD-5 disc. That's not going to play on a HD-DVD standalone player unless you can find one that can interpret a Quicktime wrapper.

ie. Stop with the misinformation.

Right. Though you are the one bring up iLife and HD-DVD in the same breath. I can smell where you're coming from, from a mile away.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

It's right there for everyone to see. DVD Studio Pro's use of the abbreviation HD DVD doesn't simply refer to the HD-DVD disc format. It applies to all high definition video that can be exported to DVD or blue laser drives. Apple says "blue laser writers". They do not say "HD-DVD writers".

Yes it does. As I said, and I pasted the link the first time you brought up this nonsense, MacWorld reviewed DVD Studio Pro and they verified that HD DVD does actually mean the HD-DVD format and not the Bluray format.

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

It's also right there in the snapshot above that HD DVD with a Quicktime extension is being written to a DVD-5 disc. That's not going to play on a HD-DVD standalone player unless you can find one that can interpret a Quicktime wrapper.

Have you ever actually used Final Cut Studio? A QuickTime extension being written to a disk? What does that even mean?

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Again, as Macworld noted in their review of DVD Studio Pro, HD discs created by DVD Studio Pro will only play in HD-DVD players, and not Bluray players.

Untrue. They reckoned that by hearsay without testing it. I doubt they came across the settings above. That's a Quicktime HD DVD-5 that won't play in any HD-DVD or Blu-ray player unless they can interpret Quicktime.

DVD Studio can make better HD-DVD (the format) discs but that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Eug's blanket statement and his blatant iLife lie.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Y
Have you ever actually used Final Cut Studio? A QuickTime extension being written to a disk? What does that even mean?

I have told you we use it. I have showed you evidence for weeks until today. If you can't see the obvious in that snapshot there's no helping you. That shows a Quicktime HD video with .mov extension recorded to a DVD-5. The world sees it except for two HD-DVD fanboys on this forum.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Untrue. They reckoned that by hearsay without testing it. I doubt they came across the settings above. That's a Quicktime HD DVD-5 that won't play in any HD-DVD or Blu-ray player unless they can interpret Quicktime.

No, they had the product, and they reviewed it in person. You're now attacking the MacWorld product reviewer staff? Boy, you're on a roll...

Here. Why don't you try burning a HD DVD from DVD Studio Pro and then try playing it in a Bluray player?

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

DVD Studio can make better HD-DVD (the format) discs but that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Eug's blanket statement and his blatant iLife lie.

With iLife Apple has clearly said that they feel the web is the best way to distribute HD video. They support neither format in iLife, and all signs point to them continuing to support neither in the near future.

As far as I am aware, Eug has never indicated that iLife supports HD-DVD.

[*TL]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

I also must insist that we put the DVD forum issue to bed.

***

Are we all in agreement on this point that HD DVD is a small subset of the DVD forum and not all DVD forum member automatically support HD DVD?

I don't disagree; my point was that WB, through Warren Lieberfarb, was a (if not the) key driver for getting DVD off the ground. Relationships in business matter, so it seems inappropriate to treat WB as just any old member of the DVD Forum.

Originally Posted by goMac 

Why should I be upset over that? Spielberg has said he's releasing on HD-DVD too. Since when has gaining exclusive support been a bad thing?

Originally Posted by Eug 

My suspicion is that Spielberg movies won't be released on any format until the war is won by somebody. He wants his movies to be format neutral, but Paramount isn't format neutral anymore.

Since reports indicate that Spielberg leans BD, my read was that Spielberg would insist that any title from now-HD exclusive Paramount would have to be released on BD too, or not at all. But his people have said that CE3K would be the only Spielberg title on a high-def format for the foreseeable future, so it's kind of a non-issue -- let's not forget that it was YEARS before any major Spielberg catalog title was released on DVD, and nothing happens on home video on his movies w/o his say so.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

I have told you we use it. I have showed you evidence for weeks until today. If you can't see the obvious in that snapshot there's no helping you. That shows a Quicktime HD video with .mov extension recorded to a DVD-5. The world sees it except for two HD-DVD fanboys on this forum.

Huh? Do you know much about how QuickTime works?

[Brien]

Originally Posted by goMac 

There are also rumors on the AVSForums that he left because he is unhappy that Warner is going to go HD-DVD exclusive.

I don't really belief in rumors either way, but I think it would be simply hilarious is Paramount was only the first part of the HD-DVD exclusivity payoffs. I think Aristotles would simply implode.

As much as I love HD DVD, I'd have liked to see Paramount/WB go BD exclusive, and end this war.

[aristotles]

Nielsen Numbers are up:
NXTbook flash detection page
71:29 Blu-ray

Also, Blu-ray dominates Top 10 with 300 for Blu-ray leading the charge again.
NXTbook flash detection page

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Huh? Do you know much about how QuickTime works?

Better than you do. You're ignoring that .mov extension setting that has been chosen and that the bottom of the pane says "53 minutes on a DVD-5", no mention of a HD-DVD disc (although it can record to any blue laser drives). The HD DVD they're making in that snapshot isn't for HD-DVD players or the HD-DVD format, proving once more that Apple uses the term loosely. Once more I'll remind you that DVD Studio Pro had the same HD DVD options BEFORE the 4.1 update that supported HD-DVD format output. You're looking ridiculous trying to argue against Apple's loose use of the term. I mean, I shake my head in complete bewilderment when I read your posts. It's shocking how far down your throat your foot can reach.



Again, the HD DVD settings you see there are
h.264 for HD DVD (not the disc format, it means HD on a DVD)
.mov Quicktime extension
720p
59.94
10.18 Mbps
PCM Audio
53 minutes on a DVD-5

Dance around it. Keep dancing. You've been dancing on this thread like a madman for over a year and in that time Blu-ray sales have wiped their metaphorical arse with your opinions. Grown from 2:1 to 3:1 in the last week.

[goMac]

MacWorld has reviewed DVD Studio and they say that HD disc burning only works with HD-DVD and not Bluray. Until you offer solid proof otherwise, I'm going to trust MacWorld over you.

(H.264 for HD-DVD? That doesn't even make sense if they're talking about aspect ratio. Do you seriously think they need a special H.264 codec for 16x9?)

(Also the extension you keep talking about is just the file name extension..)

[goMac]

Ok, straight from the horse's mouth:

DVD Studio Pro 4: "Formatting failed" and "Muxer Bit Rate too high" error with H.264 for HD DVD

"DVD Studio Pro 4 allows you to author DVDs with high definition (HD) video that conform to the HD DVD standard. There are two H.264 presets in Compressor 2 for encoding video for an HD DVD project."

Apple - Support - DVD Studio Pro

"DVD Studio Pro 4.1.2 provides important bug fixes and addresses compatibility issues with DVD Studio Pro 4.1 HD DVD projects and Toshiba HD DVD players."

http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/DVD..._4.0_lbn_z.pdf

"DVD Studio Pro 4.0.3 Complies With the HD DVD-Video Specification
HD DVD projects authored with DVD Studio Pro 4.0.3 fully comply with the 1.0 version
of the HD DVD-Video specification, which defines the new HD DVD standard.
DVD Studio Pro versions 4.0, 4.0.1, and 4.0.2 complied with the 0.9 version of the HD
DVD-Video specification, which was the most current available at that time.
The 1.0 version of the HD DVD-Video specification includes some changes that will
affect how you create HD projects in DVD Studio Pro.

Important:

HD discs created with DVD Studio Pro versions 4.0, 4.0.1, and 4.0.2 are not
compatible with any DVD players that conform to version 1.0 of the HD DVD-Video
specification.

Note:

You can open the older projects in DVD Studio Pro 4.0.3 and use its Build and
Format features to create discs that are compatible with DVD players that conform to
version 1.0 of the HD DVD-Video specification. Build files (in HVDVD_TS folders) created
with DVD Studio Pro versions 4.0, 4.0.1, and 4.0.2 cannot be formatted directly—you
must create them again using the Build function. "

Just stop. MacWorld says you are wrong. Apple says you are wrong.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Untrue. They reckoned that by hearsay without testing it. I doubt they came across the settings above. That's a Quicktime HD DVD-5 that won't play in any HD-DVD or Blu-ray player unless they can interpret Quicktime.

This has already been tested by people who have DVD Studio Pro and Toshiba HD DVD players, so give it a rest.

DVD Studio can make better HD-DVD (the format) discs but that isn't what I'm talking about.

Huh?

I'm talking about Eug's blanket statement and his blatant iLife lie.

What lie would that be?

Originally Posted by goMac

As far as I am aware, Eug has never indicated that iLife supports HD-DVD.

Correct.

Some facts:

1) DVD Studio Pro is Apple software that can burn official spec HD DVD discs.
2) DVD Studio Pro cannot burn Blu-ray discs.
3) iLife '08 does not support Blu-ray disc burning, despite the wishful thinking by some a while back that iLife '08 would get it.
4) DVD Player.app, which ships with every Mac, can play the official spec HD DVD discs burned by DVD Studio Pro.
5) Standalone Toshiba HD DVD players (which don't understand QuickTime at all) can play the official spec HD DVD discs burned by DVD Studio Pro.

And finally... 6) Despite Apple's membership in the BDA, Apple's real life support in its own software is better for HD DVD than it is for Blu-ray.

Cheers.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Ok, straight from the horse's mouth:

wawawawa

I have stated twice on this page alone that with the 4.1 update there is output to HD-DVD discs. My position was that Apple also uses HD DVD as a loose term for any HD output to optical discs (it can record h.264 to Blu-ray too if you have drivers for the recording device). Your position was that Apple doesn't use it as a loose term and that HD DVD only means the format.

Care to show anyone in the world a HD-DVD player that makes use of a Quicktime .mov extension? Of course you can't.

Talking to you is like talking to a stupid woman who can't shut her mouth when she knows she's wrong and can't understand a thing that a man tells her. Are you a woman by any chance?

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Talking to you is like talking to a stupid woman who can't shut her mouth when she knows she's wrong and can't understand a thing that a man tells her. Are you a woman by any chance?

Yeah, let's try to not cross the line egregiously, eh?

[PaperNotes]

1) DVD Studio Pro is Apple software that can burn official spec HD DVD discs.

As of the 4.1 update. Prior to that with version 4.0 the app still used the term HD DVD loosely to mean HD output to any optical format.

2) DVD Studio Pro cannot burn Blu-ray discs.

It can output h.264 which can be burned on a Blu-ray recordable and played back in a Blu-ray player. At the time the app was in development Blu-ray spec had not been finalized and there hasn't been an update for a long time.

3) iLife '08 does not support Blu-ray (or HD DVD) disc burning, despite the claims by some a while back that iLife '08 would get it.

If Apple didn't say it would then who cares what someone somewhere in the universe told you.

4) DVD Player.app, which ships with every Mac, can play the official spec HD DVD discs burned by DVD Studio Pro.

It will play h.264 Quicktime HD to DVD output, DVD Studio to HD-DVD output, and h.264 output to any disc if the right layout is chosen. It will not play any commercial HD discs.


5) Standalone HD DVD players (which don't understand QuickTime at all), can play the official spec HD DVD discs burned by DVD Studio Pro.

And any Blu-ray player will play h.264 output burned on to a Blu-ray or DVD too.

[pooka]

I dunno. His stock just went up in my book. Nothing worse than a stubborn chick who can't shut her trap. Nothing more embarrassing than having to smack a woman up for talking too much.

Poo-Ray still sucks though.