[PaperNotes]

Order a NEW Blu-ray movie disc then report why the Amazon feed that supplies data to thedvdwars.com is showing no Blu-ray in stock. Tell us the shipping times on new discs too once your order is processed.

Regardless, the feed still showed that HD-DVD sales went up post Xmas when Blu-ray sold out. I had no personal opinion that could be insulted.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Order a NEW Blu-ray movie disc then report why the Amazon feed that supplies data to thedvdwars.com is showing no Blu-ray in stock. Tell us the shipping times on new discs too once your order is processed.

Regardless, the feed still showed that HD-DVD sales went up post Xmas when Blu-ray sold out. I had no personal opinion that could be insulted.

You're probably looking at the data for one title...

Regardless, Amazon themselves are saying that they have new copies available and in stock, shipping directly from Amazon.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Order a NEW Blu-ray movie disc then report why the Amazon feed that supplies data to thedvdwars.com is showing no Blu-ray in stock. Tell us the shipping times on new discs too once your order is processed.

Regardless, the feed still showed that HD-DVD sales went up post Xmas when Blu-ray sold out. I had no personal opinion that could be insulted.

This is getting ridiculous. So you mean to tell me that all the people who ordered movies during the BOGO sales Amazon had for Blu-Ray never got their movies because there was no stock???

Here is your chart when you click on "show all" - looks like there is something wrong with it:


Now stop with this nonsense. Amazon is CLEARLY not sold out of their movies.

[jokell82]

BTW, here are the number of movies that can ship *today* according to your website:


Please tell us all how they could ship almost 500 Blu-Ray titles today with no stock.

[Big Mac]

You guys are really serious about this debate.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

You guys are really serious about this debate.

Hah... why not.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

BTW, here are the number of movies that can ship *today* according to your website:


Please tell us all how they could ship almost 500 Blu-Ray titles today with no stock.

According to that pic, HD DVD is supply constrained -- there are fewer HD DVD titles in stock. In other words, OMG HD DVD is sold out! Despite this HD DVD still leads the Amazon top 100.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

"Those features will do little to increase sales, said Richard Doherty, an analyst with the Envisioneering Group. The market consultants’ surveys show that just 3 percent of consumers want interactivity, he said."

In the DVD War Over High Definition, Most Buyers Are Sitting It Out - New York Times

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

"Those features will do little to increase sales, said Richard Doherty, an analyst with the Envisioneering Group. The market consultants’ surveys show that just 3 percent of consumers want interactivity, he said."

In the DVD War Over High Definition, Most Buyers Are Sitting It Out - New York Times

Well, there seems to be a bit of a disconnect there.

Universal says 30% of HD DVD users access Web content

Universal said that an average of 30% of people who bought its HD DVDs with Internet features actually accessed those features. Such titles include Evan Almight, Knocked Up, and the first season of Heroes.

All HD DVD players are required to have an Ethernet port to connect to a broadband Internet connection, a requirement that has not yet been matched by Blu-ray.

The HD DVD Promotional Group also said this week that more than 80,000 unique users had accessed exclusive Web content from the HD DVD version of Transformers, a Dreamworks title. Both Universal and Dreamworks are in the small pool of movie studios releasing high-def titles exclusively to HD DVD.

"We've only scratched the surface in offering web-connected experiences to fans of hit movies and TV shows," HD DVD Promotional Group co-president and Universal executive VP Ken Gaffeo.

Whether the majority of people overall want it or not is not the issue. The issue is whether a good percentage of people willing to buy into hi-def want it or not.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

The standard DVDs offered a quantum leap in quality from the picture and sound of VHS videotape, and for many that was more than adequate.

In the DVD War Over High Definition, Most Buyers Are Sitting It Out - New York Times

Huh? I never noticed any improvement in picture quality from VHS to DVD except for no more issues with 'tracking'. Quantum leap? WTF is he talking about???

[Lateralus]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Huh? I never noticed any improvement in picture quality from VHS to DVD

[hyteckit]

Another BOGO sale for Bluray. Not a week goes by without a BOGO sale for Bluray.

Amazon having a BOGO sale for Bluray titles. Over 90 titles on sale compare to under 40 titles for HDDVD.

Titles under $20 for Bluray BOGO sale includes the first 4 Harry Potter movies and 300.

As someone have said in this thread, they are practically giving them away.

[keekeeree]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

I never noticed any improvement in picture quality from VHS to DVD

Nice to meet you Helen Keller.

[goMac]

Perhaps he had an old 9" black and white tv with the dvd player hooked in via some sort of coax transceiver.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by keekeeree 

Nice to meet you Helen Keller.

Originally Posted by goMac 

Perhaps he had an old 9" black and white tv with the dvd player hooked in via some sort of coax transceiver.

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

So you think that DVD looks that much better than cable TV? Or you think that VHS looks that much worse? I could go for "maybe noticeable" improvement, but not quantum leap. HDTV is a quantum leap. Or you think that HDTV is a quantum leap above DVD which is a quantum leap above cable TV which is a quantum leap above VHS which is a quanutum leap above antenna TV? I think each step was a slight improvement until HDTV came out.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Huh? I never noticed any improvement in picture quality from VHS to DVD

That's like saying you didn't notice a difference between 8-tracks and CDs. Like saying that seeing a movie on your mom's 15" TV was just as good as seeing it on a huge, silver screen. It's incredible and improbable.

I just saw a Blu-Ray demo on a pretty large LCD monitor, and I'm very impressed. I am, however, waiting for a combo player, because I refuse to buy multiple devices so that I'm covered for whatever the market decides on. And as this Blu-Ray demo was an actual quantum leap above DVD imaging, I have to really wonder what it is you're talking about. Seriously, even a low-dollar, Wal-Mart special DVD player with cheap cables should make a film look like a spring day compared to any VHS player with the same film's tape.

[mrtew]

HA! I told you! Idiots! I knew it wasn't my bad memory or eyes. Now I can't trust you band of snotty 13 year old's about anything.

Evidence about the alleged superiority of DVD picture versus VHS is largely anecdotal and suspicious, given the fact that it mostly originates from the DVD manufacturers themselves. In fact, the actual peer-reviewed evidence tends to point the other direction.
DVD Versus VHS: The Surprising Truth

DVD wins right? Not necessarily. A one hour video in digital format takes up about 21GB of space on a computer. DVD encoders use compression (mpeg2) to fit this on to the 4.7GB DVD disk and any time you use compression there is some loss of quality. Now in saying that, around the 1 hour 15 min mark is the point where the degradation starts to become noticeable during cross fades, action scenes or low light. A 2 hour high quality video will (initially) look better than a 2 hour DVD.
DVD vs. VHS

[jokell82]

While the theoretical maximum picture quality of VHS may have approached the typical DVD, analog video issues plagued VHS tapes. Don't you remember having to adjust the "tracking" on your tapes so that the screen didn't flicker? You don't remember all the snow and other distortions that would show up on the tapes over time?

DVD was a huge improvement over VHS in picture quality, no question.

Edit - Also, that first link is almost laughable. They want to say that the analog 2 track audio of VHS was better than the 5.1 tracks of DVD???

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

HA! I told you! Idiots! I knew it wasn't my bad memory or eyes. Now I can't trust you band of snotty 13 year old's about anything.

Uncalled for-except that nobody has confused me for a 13 year old since I was about 12...

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Evidence about the alleged superiority of DVD picture versus VHS is largely anecdotal and suspicious, given the fact that it mostly originates from the DVD manufacturers themselves. In fact, the actual peer-reviewed evidence tends to point the other direction.
DVD Versus VHS: The Surprising Truth

DVD wins right? Not necessarily. A one hour video in digital format takes up about 21GB of space on a computer. DVD encoders use compression (mpeg2) to fit this on to the 4.7GB DVD disk and any time you use compression there is some loss of quality. Now in saying that, around the 1 hour 15 min mark is the point where the degradation starts to become noticeable during cross fades, action scenes or low light. A 2 hour high quality video will (initially) look better than a 2 hour DVD.
DVD vs. VHS

My eyes are not that far off-in fact they're pretty darn good. The image in a good DVD (that was properly mastered, of course) is significantly better than anything I've ever seen from VHS, even brand new tapes. Encoding is lossy, that's true, but as I said, a well mastered DVD will be made so that the loss is not in areas where there is action or important detail. Contrast that with VHS tapes that wear out over time, that depend on hysteresis and clean tapes and a thousand other variables that cannot be controlled, that produce an analog signal that cannot be kept "noise free" because it's impossible to separate much of the artifact noise from the desired signal, and you come up with a serious technical superiority for DVD.

And let's have no more rudeness, shall we?

[alligator]

Come on Apple, introduce something to put this thread to an end!

[icruise]

DVD is a huge jump over VHS, if only because it offers anamorphic video. I don't think there is anyone who could watch a VHS copy of a movie on an HDTV and not see that DVD is worlds better.

[hyteckit]

Just watch Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone on HDDVD. I must say I'm kinda disappointed. Picture quality not much better than DVD. Not much cool HDDVD features either. It also froze on me at 1hr14min point. I stop it and eject the disc to inspect the disc. Everything looks clean. Tried it again. Froze at the exact same point at 1hr14min.

Anyway, I swap in my new HDDVD player. Guess what? No problems with freezing with the new HDDVD player! Yeah. All those freezing must be the bad HDDVD player I had. I'm going test out my other HDDVD discs that I've been having problems with and see if the freezing is gone.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

You guys are really serious about this debate.

It's Bloods vs. Crips for the supernerd crowd.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Just watch Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone on HDDVD. I must say I'm kinda disappointed. Picture quality not much better than DVD. Not much cool HDDVD features either. It also froze on me at 1hr14min point. I stop it and eject the disc to inspect the disc. Everything looks clean. Tried it again. Froze at the exact same point at 1hr14min.

Anyway, I swap in my new HDDVD player. Guess what? No problems with freezing with the new HDDVD player! Yeah. All those freezing must be the bad HDDVD player I had. I'm going test out my other HDDVD discs that I've been having problems with and see if the freezing is gone.

Well, more related to HP than freezing, but the HD DVD of the newest HP flick I picked up today had the anti-theft sticker (the black one with the magnet in it) ON the disc, so I'm going to have to take it back. I can post pics if you'd like, I had a good chuckle when I opened up the case.

[BRussell]

I haven't been following this thread, but has AppleTV's rentals come up? With consumers frustrated with the format wars, it seems to me that there's a real opportunity for hi def downloads - which are neither Bluray nor HD-DVD - to come in and make a good case to consumers. Rather than trying to decide which format DVD player to get, just get an AppleTV and download hi def movies in a universal format.

[climber]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I haven't been following this thread, but has AppleTV's rentals come up? With consumers frustrated with the format wars, it seems to me that there's a real opportunity for hi def downloads - which are neither Bluray nor HD-DVD - to come in and make a good case to consumers. Rather than trying to decide which format DVD player to get, just get an AppleTV and download hi def movies in a universal format.

I think eventually that is where the market will go. But it will be many years. I just keep thinking how long it would take to download the HD data. Even DVD size files take hours.

Right now I think the consumer prefers the physical disks they can purchase at the store, etc. Over time that will likely shift as it is doing with music. But the question is if this stupid HD disk war will still be going on then.

Although my personal preference is BR, I would rather see HDDVD win if they could do it now instead of a year from now. Unfortunately my assessment is that the war will continue for at least the rest of 2008 and probably 2009. I almost purchased the Sony player before xmas. I decided to wait when I looked at the selection of rentals at Blockbuster. I refuse to buy disks that may be obsolete in a year or so (I already have a collection of laserdisks on the shelf right now). But I would get one if I could rent the disks instead.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Gonna be a shitty month for HD-DVD movies.

BR is getting 2 worth buying though but nothing too exciting. I didn't like sunshine much but it looked so fabulous so I might get it.
Digital Home - Blu-ray and HD DVD January Releases

[goMac]

Originally Posted by climber 

I think eventually that is where the market will go. But it will be many years. I just keep thinking how long it would take to download the HD data. Even DVD size files take hours.

Compression has gotten better since DVD. With the right compression (something like DiVX), you can download a DVD quality movie in around 10-20 minutes.

Microsoft already has their online HD video network with 720p and 5.1 surround sound. File size is only about 6.5 gigs each movie.

[ort888]

Zodiac on HD DVD is the only movie on either format I have any interest in watching.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Zodiac on HD DVD is the only movie on either format I have any interest in watching.

Since it is like the 3rd bloody time they have made a movie about that killer I think I can safely skip it.

[jokell82]

Only movie I'd get (on either format) is the Dispatch concert. Looks like a horrible month for both sides.

I expect to see many more BOGO sales for both sides.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Shocker: Amazon's Blu-ray BOGO boosts BD rankings - Engadget HD

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Shocker: Amazon's Blu-ray BOGO boosts BD rankings - Engadget HD

<swg>A sale? Sounds like the Bluray camp is trying to get rid of a bunch of discs they can't sell! Must be the final sale before they get rid of the format entirely!</swg>

[hyteckit]

We need better BOGO sales for HDDVD.

Amazon's Bluray BOGO sales have over 90 titles, while HDDVD BOGO sale has under 40 titles. Come on Amazon!

Even with all the BOGO sales on the Bluray side, Bluray only manage a small advantage over HDDVD in sales for 2007. Hoping to get more and better BOGO sales on the HDDVD side. Still want to get Batman Begins, V for Vendetta, and the Mummy movies. Maybe Blade Runner and 2001 as well.

Yeah, HDDVD releases for January and Feb 2008 sucks doggy poo.

[residentEvil]

how many times are you going to say that? you already said the first part yesterday on this SAME page.

[ort888]

Where can I find a list of all the upcoming HD DVD titles?

[residentEvil]

HD DVD Disc Release Dates | High Def Digest

and oh, BR too...

Blu-ray Disc Release Dates | High Def Digest

another edit: some day, the digital bits will get their's going...here is the place holder...

The Digital Bits - High-Definition Release List

[Brien]

You know, FUD and such aside, it's really looking that either this stalemate will last forever, or it's going to take awhile for one side (probably BD) to win this. It's fairly obvious neither side is going to cave.

Thank goodness that both sides have cheap players. I'm sick of the war. </bitter>

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

<swg>A sale? Sounds like the Bluray camp is trying to get rid of a bunch of discs they can't sell! Must be the final sale before they get rid of the format entirely!</swg>

I don't get if that was supposed to be a joke or if you think you are quoting me but it is nothing like what I have ever said.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

We need better BOGO sales for HDDVD.

Amazon's Bluray BOGO sales have over 90 titles, while HDDVD BOGO sale has under 40 titles. Come on Amazon!

This brings up an interesting question. Who is it that is determining which titles go on sale? I don't think it's the retailers.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Zodiac on HD DVD is the only movie on either format I have any interest in watching.

It's a great movie, and I can't wait for the Directors Cut.

[Oversoul]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I haven't been following this thread, but has AppleTV's rentals come up? With consumers frustrated with the format wars, it seems to me that there's a real opportunity for hi def downloads - which are neither Bluray nor HD-DVD - to come in and make a good case to consumers. Rather than trying to decide which format DVD player to get, just get an AppleTV and download hi def movies in a universal format.

Apple aside, it's popular speculation that Microsoft's hidden, if seemingly inconsistent interest in supporting HD DVD is really to promote its digital downloads over physical media. Back HD DVD, including incentive payouts to Paramount and Dreamworks to switch to HD DVD exclusive, and Microsoft effectively prolongs the format war for another year or more -- perhaps enough time to leave consumers confused or disenchanted and for digital downloads to take hold.

I, for one, prefer to have a tangible and physical copy of the movie I'm buying, and I'm willing to pay the premium for it. Even so, bandwidth and availability of digital content via downloads hasn't come along enough to tempt me. Downloading a high def (1080p please -- none of this 720p nonsense) movie (in the range of ~10GB) would be painful for the average consumer. And I've yet to see all the special features that come part of DVD, HD DVD, or Blu-ray make it to the iTunes or other download stores.

[Oversoul]

Originally Posted by icruise 

This brings up an interesting question. Who is it that is determining which titles go on sale? I don't think it's the retailers.

I'm curious about that too. The BOGOs on Amazon, Fry's, Best Buy, et al seem studio specific. One week you'll have Sony studio movies, then Disney studios. The current BOGO at Amazon seems to cover Fox and Warner titles.

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by ghporter

I just saw a Blu-Ray demo on a pretty large LCD monitor, and I'm very impressed. I am, however, waiting for a combo player, because I refuse to buy multiple devices so that I'm covered for whatever the market decides on.

Get the HP Pavilion s3200t* with the HD combo and ATSC options, and share your experience if you may.
ZDNet HP Pavilion Slimline s3200t Review & Comparison
*Don't get the AMD flavor, as it is not OSX compatible.

[Oversoul]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I just saw a Blu-Ray demo on a pretty large LCD monitor, and I'm very impressed. I am, however, waiting for a combo player, because I refuse to buy multiple devices so that I'm covered for whatever the market decides on.

The Samsung BD-UP5000 Blu-ray/HD DVD dual format player just started shipping. I've read over at the AVS and High Def Digest forums that it has some trouble playing some titles so you might want to wait for a firmware update or two. Samsung's confirmed that a coming firmware update will upgrade the player to BD Profile 1.1. Check out the owners threads on those two forums if you're interested.

Note: This combo player likely will not qualify for any of the Free 5 Blu-ray or HD DVD offers that usually come with the purchase of a new player.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by The Godfather 

Get the HP Pavilion s3200t* with the HD combo and ATSC options, and share your experience if you may.
ZDNet HP Pavilion Slimline s3200t Review & Comparison
*Don't get the AMD flavor, as it is not OSX compatible.

I'm not at all interested in getting yet another computer, though this one sounds like it's better than the average HP... Thanks for the info.

Originally Posted by Oversoul 

The Samsung BD-UP5000 Blu-ray/HD DVD dual format player just started shipping. I've read over at the AVS and High Def Digest forums that it has some trouble playing some titles so you might want to wait for a firmware update or two. Samsung's confirmed that a coming firmware update will upgrade the player to BD Profile 1.1. Check out the owners threads on those two forums if you're interested.

Note: This combo player likely will not qualify for any of the Free 5 Blu-ray or HD DVD offers that usually come with the purchase of a new player.

This is the kind of thing I'm interested in! A single box that can handle all three movie formats (plus apparently the other formats like DivX). Unfortunately, it's pretty pricey-$1k at the moment where I can find it. I'll wait a while for the price to drop as well as for firmware updates. Thanks for pointing this one out!

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Oversoul 

Apple aside, it's popular speculation that Microsoft's hidden, if seemingly inconsistent interest in supporting HD DVD is really to promote its digital downloads over physical media.

It's popular speculation, not backed up by fact or even common sense. If HD DVD were to succeed, MS would make lots of money from the patent pool. MS holds key patents to HD DVD's design, since they developed HDi.

Back HD DVD, including incentive payouts to Paramount and Dreamworks to switch to HD DVD exclusive

Except that MS has categorically denied this, and furthermore, Toshiba has already said it was they who gave them "incentives" (albeit less than what was claimed by the popular media).

and Microsoft effectively prolongs the format war for another year or more -- perhaps enough time to leave consumers confused or disenchanted and for digital downloads to take hold.

One year is not enough for the infrastructure to mature.

I, for one, prefer to have a tangible and physical copy of the movie I'm buying, and I'm willing to pay the premium for it. Even so, bandwidth and availability of digital content via downloads hasn't come along enough to tempt me. Downloading a high def (1080p please -- none of this 720p nonsense) movie (in the range of ~10GB) would be painful for the average consumer. And I've yet to see all the special features that come part of DVD, HD DVD, or Blu-ray make it to the iTunes or other download stores.

Exactly. HD downloads have a long way to go yet, and one year just isn't long enough.

Originally Posted by icruise 

This brings up an interesting question. Who is it that is determining which titles go on sale? I don't think it's the retailers.

I have no inside info, but IMO it's the studios and/or the hi-def promotional groups. Witness the huge Blu-ray BOGO sales whenever HD DVD has had big releases. For example, Transformers.

P.S. Here is what the studio heads have to say about hi-def this year (Pages HD8 - HD12):

Studio Presidents Look Ahead to 2008

It sounds like the format-neutral studios are getting increasingly frustrated with the war.

"Dueling formats have restrained our ability to launch large-scale, industry wide marketing initiatives directed toward providing high-definition disc and hardware purchasers with the simple, direct and compelling story required to drive consumer interest and packaged-media sales to the next level."
- Steve Einhorn, President, New Line Home Entertainment

"Unfortunately, the dueling formats created an information logjam in what should have been our conversation with consumers."
- Ron Sanders, President, Warner Home Video

Perhaps they will go exclusive sooner rather than later.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Oversoul 

Apple aside, it's popular speculation that Microsoft's hidden, if seemingly inconsistent interest in supporting HD DVD is really to promote its digital downloads over physical media.

HDi is more than that. Microsoft could use it to power stuff like the XBox Live Marketplace's menus or GUI interfaces in Windows.

Originally Posted by Oversoul 

Downloading a high def (1080p please -- none of this 720p nonsense) movie (in the range of ~10GB) would be painful for the average consumer. And I've yet to see all the special features that come part of DVD, HD DVD, or Blu-ray make it to the iTunes or other download stores.

I doubt your average consumer would need 1080p video downloads at this point. You can't even get broadcast tv in 1080p. But in theory an HDi based movie would call intact with all the extras.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by goMac 

HDi is more than that. Microsoft could use it to power stuff like the XBox Live Marketplace's menus or GUI interfaces in Windows.

But they don't, and have no plans to. HDi was written for HD DVD, and it looks like that's where it's going to stay for the time being.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

But they don't, and have no plans to. HDi was written for HD DVD, and it looks like that's where it's going to stay for the time being.

Why would you assume that? Microsoft hasn't said they will use it, but they certainly haven't said they won't. If Microsoft decided to start including stuff like extras, HDi would certainly be the most practical way to do it. Not to mention, Microsoft already has the rights to use the format. It's a far more logical assumption that the would use tech that they already have the rights for instead of going back to the drawing board and coming up with something new.