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G5 in stores!!...According to NY Times
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Cards1
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Aug 17, 2003, 10:20 PM
 
Check it out:

http://nytimes.com/2003/08/18/technology/18NECO.html

They also mentioned Adobe Photoshop releasing the updated version for 64-bit processors.
     
Eug
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Aug 17, 2003, 10:29 PM
 
Remember, for NY Times registration:
macnn
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For Those Needing 32 More Bits

By JOHN MARKOFF

APPLE COMPUTER has recently received much applause for its iTunes music service. But its new Power Mac G5 computers, set to arrive in stores today, will probably have a much larger impact on the world of personal computing.

Apple already has 100,000 orders for its G5 machines, which are priced at $2,000 to $3,000, depending on the configuration. The breakthrough is that the computers use 64-bit microprocessors, a significant step beyond the 32-bit processors on current Apple machines and most Windows-based PC's.

Apple is not alone. In the Windows world, Advanced Micro Devices plans next month to roll out a 64-bit processor, the Athlon 64 FX. And Intel's Itanium chips, introduced in 2001, are already 64-bit processors — although in contrast to the Apple and Advance Micro products, the Itanium is not a processor to which users of lesser chips can easily switch.

The arrival of 64-bit desktop processors signifies a new era of computing — initially for professionals who are bumping up against the memory limits of existing PC's. Soon afterward the new chips will affect everyday computer users, for whom a new generation of media machines should offer remarkable improvements in audio and visual effects.

"I think we're dropping a snowball down the hill," said Rich Heye, vice president and general manager of Advanced Micro's microprocessor business unit. "Sixty-four-bit computing will take off faster than people think."

Why do 64 bits matter?

Microprocessors are generally defined by the number of pieces of information they can manipulate at once. A 32-bit microprocessor, for example, can move, add, subtract or multiply numbers that are 32 zeros and ones long. A 64-bit processor is capable of handling binary numbers consisting of a string of 64 zeros and ones.

It is the length of the information string that determines the amount of random-access memory, or RAM, a processor can make use of during a task. The more RAM per task, the greater the computing power.

Thirty-two bit processors are limited to a theoretical maximum of handling 4 billion bytes of RAM per task. (A byte equals eight bits.) But by the magic of exponential math, a 64-bit processor can theoretically handle 16 quintillion (or 16 billion billion) bytes of RAM. For all current practical purposes, that is an infinite amount.

Until recently, such numbers were largely meaningless, because of the cost of a RAM chip (technically known as a D-RAM, or dynamic random access memory, chip). But now that the cost of a billion bytes, or a gigabyte, of RAM has fallen below $400 (from thousands of dollars several years ago), it becomes economically feasible to have personal computers that are not bound by the four-gigabyte limit of 32-bit chips.

"Memory has become cheap enough that it doesn't matter for professional PC users," said Steven P. Jobs, Apple's chief executive and co-founder. "The killer app is breaking through the four-gigabyte barrier."

People who recall the shift from 8-bit to 16-bit computing in the early 1980's, and the shift from 16-bit to 32-bit processors in the late 80's, say the move to 64 bits will again make the personal computer a significantly different kind of information tool.

"The graphics performance offered by 64-bit computing will be a big step up," said Richard Doherty, a computer designer who is president of Envisioneering, a consulting firm in Seaford, N.Y. "It will put a tremendous amount of power into the hands of scientific researchers and engineers first, and to a secondary degree to some artists who want to express themselves in three-dimensional design."

If the shift happens quickly, it will also put tremendous pressure on Intel. Apple and Advanced Micro Devices have chosen to offer personal computer users a fairly seamless transition from 32-bit to 64-bit desktop computing, by making it possible for the new chips to work with the existing software of 32-bit users.

But Intel has gambled that users in search of higher performance will be willing to uproot and move to Itanium computers, which require a new library of software, including special versions of the Windows or Linux operating systems.

So far, despite investing several billions of dollars along with Hewlett-Packard to develop Itanium hardware and reportedly spending as much as $700 million to try luring software developers into the fold, Intel has not had much market momentum from the Itanium.

Advanced Micro is counting on its 64-bit chips to take the fullest advantage of Microsoft's next version of Windows, now code-named Longhorn and scheduled for a 2005 introduction.

Sixty-four bit computing has already long been the norm in scientific and corporate computing and more recently in video game machines. The question of how much RAM is needed by PC users has long been a subject of debate in the personal computer industry. As PC's have evolved from 8 to 16 and then to 32 bits, hardware engineers and software designers have at first scratched their heads over what users might do with all of that RAM.

Now it is becoming increasingly clear that if bigger chunks of computer memory are available and affordable, users will gobble them up.

Hollywood digital animation studios already require at least two gigabytes of RAM to render a single frame in a movie like Pixar's "Monsters, Inc." Adding even more realism will require expanding the amount of data in images, and their RAM demands, exponentially.

And for graphics software like Adobe Photoshop, 64-bit processing is expected to greatly enhance the computer's ability to move large image files in the computer's memory. Adobe, in fact, is planning to make software available on Tuesday that it says will improve Photoshop's performance on Apple's G5 computers by 75 to 200 percent, depending on the operation.

For all kinds of databases, meanwhile, retrieving information can be remarkably faster in the 64-bit world, because vast amounts of data can reside in RAM, where it is more directly accessible than if it must be stored on disk.

But beyond the predictable costs and performance benefits, if 64-bit computing follows the PC's historical patterns, this migration may bring a surprise or two.

Mr. Heye predicts: "There are two 22-year-olds in a garage somewhere creating some piece of software with a 64-bit computer that we are all going to want."
( Last edited by Eug; Aug 17, 2003 at 10:42 PM. )
     
himself
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Aug 17, 2003, 11:06 PM
 
While the expanded memory that 64-bit procs make available is no minor feature, that story makes it sound as if the ability to break the "4-gig ceiling" is the only thing a 64-bit processor can provide. Nothing about the increased processing abilities that a 64-bit chip provides.

But that's minor, at least compared to the performance increase that photoshop is expected to see with it's G5 compatibility software. 75 to 200%?? That sounds almost too ridiculous to believe. I want to be optimistic, but I'll believe it when I hear it from Adobe's mouth.
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Eug
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Aug 17, 2003, 11:19 PM
 
Originally posted by himself:
But that's minor, at least compared to the performance increase that photoshop is expected to see with it's G5 compatibility software. 75 to 200%?? That sounds almost too ridiculous to believe. I want to be optimistic, but I'll believe it when I hear it from Adobe's mouth.
I wonder if the writer misquoted Adobe. Maybe with the update, the dual 2.0 will be 75-200% faster than the dual 1.42 (and not the unoptimized Photoshop on the dual 2.0)?
     
macrophyllum
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Aug 17, 2003, 11:40 PM
 
Wow! I hope it is true!
     
MindFad
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Aug 18, 2003, 12:48 AM
 
Man, I'm going to head to the one in the Millenium Mall next week in Orlando and see if they have them in yet. I can't wait to try one out.
     
Eug
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Aug 18, 2003, 12:54 AM
 
Are you gonna look for an in-store G5 demo this week?
Man, I'm going to head to the one in the Millenium Mall next week in Orlando and see if they have them in yet. I can't wait to try one out.
So I guess that would be a yes...
     
mitchell_pgh
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Aug 18, 2003, 01:05 AM
 
I'm WAY too poor to pick one of these systems up... but I'll be looking in about 6-18 months...

dual 2 GHz does make me smile...
     
jokell82
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Aug 18, 2003, 08:59 AM
 
While I'm sure it wont be a Dual 2 Ghz, my friend is the Apple rep at the local CompUSA and he says his demo will be in today. I'm going at lunch to play with it.

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Eug
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Aug 18, 2003, 09:27 AM
 
     
HamSandwich
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Aug 18, 2003, 09:29 AM
 
Now where do our benchmarks stay??

Steve
     
Anand
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Aug 18, 2003, 09:42 AM
 
"I wonder if the writer misquoted Adobe. Maybe with the update, the dual 2.0 will be 75-200% faster than the dual 1.42 (and not the unoptimized Photoshop on the dual 2.0)?"



No, from what we have been shown, the photoshop update is to improve the performance on the G5 itself.

Some things happen on the G5 that they are hard to believe.
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Eug
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Aug 18, 2003, 09:46 AM
 
Originally posted by Anand:
No, from what we have been shown, the photoshop update is to improve the performance on the G5 itself.
Yeah, I know, but maybe the 200% speedup is compared to a dual 1.42 G4. ie. Maybe without the optimization it would "only" be a 50% speedup compared to the dual 1.42 G4.
     
tooki
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Aug 18, 2003, 10:00 AM
 
Originally posted by himself:
While the expanded memory that 64-bit procs make available is no minor feature, that story makes it sound as if the ability to break the "4-gig ceiling" is the only thing a 64-bit processor can provide. Nothing about the increased processing abilities that a 64-bit chip provides.
Ummm, yeah, but the increase in available RAM is by far the most relevant change, because most computing operations don't benefit from being 64-bit. There aren't significant "processing ability" increases until you start working with very, very large numbers, which most people will never do.

tooki
     
Anand
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Aug 18, 2003, 10:30 AM
 
No, the 75-200% increase is on the G5 machine itself. Add to the fact that the G5 running the same photoshop version is already 10-40% faster than a G4 - now the G5 will really shine.
Yes, I know I could buy a PC, but why?
     
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Aug 18, 2003, 10:46 AM
 
Oh shìt, now they're shipping I might see one and need to buy one.
Nothing to see, move along.
     
Gee4orce
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Aug 18, 2003, 10:47 AM
 
Originally posted by TC:
According to Apple they're shipping:
http://www.apple.com/
Miss the post above with the huge photo, did you ?
     
TC
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Aug 18, 2003, 10:50 AM
 
Originally posted by Gee4orce:
Miss the post above with the huge photo, did you ?
Yep, I'm on modem this week and didn't wait for it to load, felt like a dum ass and then edited my original post.
Thanks for pointing that one out though.
Nothing to see, move along.
     
Arkham_c
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Aug 18, 2003, 10:54 AM
 
Originally posted by tooki:
Ummm, yeah, but the increase in available RAM is by far the most relevant change, because most computing operations don't benefit from being 64-bit. There aren't significant "processing ability" increases until you start working with very, very large numbers, which most people will never do.

tooki
Or very large data sets. If you're processing binary data, being able to process 64-bits at a time is generally going to be faster than processing 32 bits at a time. Consider the machine instructions required:

LOAD 32-bit word
[process]
STORE 32-bit word
LOAD 32-bit word
[process]
STORE 32-bit word

versus

LOAD 64-bit word
[process]
STORE 64-bit word

Making the assumption that the [process] stage takes about the same in both cases, you can assume that the 64-bit processor will be MORE than twice as fast, since it has to do only 1 LOAD and STORE (which is reading from memory into a register, and writing back to memory from a register) versus 2 loads and 2 stores for the 32-bit processor.

When you magnify that times a (relatively small) 40 MB file, that's twice as many processing cycles, plus 5.2 million load/stores versus 2.6 million. When you couple that with the fast G5 bus, which should ensure that load/store is much faster than on a G4, you could get a significant benefit without needing large data files.
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Eug
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Aug 18, 2003, 01:08 PM
 
One more: CNET
( Last edited by Eug; Aug 18, 2003 at 01:14 PM. )
     
chrisutley
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Aug 19, 2003, 07:56 PM
 
When Apple says "shipping" you more often than not can count on people getting confirmations of their machines being shipped, so far not one that I'm aware of. WTF?
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himself
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Aug 19, 2003, 08:21 PM
 
Originally posted by tooki:
Ummm, yeah, but the increase in available RAM is by far the most relevant change, because most computing operations don't benefit from being 64-bit. There aren't significant "processing ability" increases until you start working with very, very large numbers, which most people will never do.

tooki

I don't disagree at all with that, but for creative professionals (to whom the G5 has the most appeal by far) working in high-end video, audio, and 3D apps (not to mention the possibility of a 64-bit optimized Photoshop), 64-bit compliance will make a major difference. The "Killer [64-bit] App" will likely be of more use to professional users than anyone else anyway.
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Aug 19, 2003, 08:52 PM
 
chrisutley:

As AtAT pointed out, though... of the 100K people who preordered G5s, you can probably count the number of single-processor orders on one hand.

Seriously, I've only seen maybe one or two orders of that kind on MacNN.
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idyll
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Aug 19, 2003, 09:10 PM
 
Unfortunately the two of those kind haven't shipped yet .
     
Eug Wanker
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Aug 19, 2003, 09:48 PM
 
Originally posted by Commodus:
chrisutley:

As AtAT pointed out, though... of the 100K people who preordered G5s, you can probably count the number of single-processor orders on one hand.

Seriously, I've only seen maybe one or two orders of that kind on MacNN.
I read somewhere that the dual 2s were supposed to be about half of the orders.
     
ryarber
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Aug 19, 2003, 10:42 PM
 
Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
I read somewhere that the dual 2s were supposed to be about half of the orders.
I ordered a single 1.8 and it hasn't shipped from Macconnection yet.
     
Eug Wanker
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Aug 19, 2003, 11:07 PM
 
     
Eug
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Aug 20, 2003, 01:03 AM
 
     
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Aug 20, 2003, 06:16 AM
 
Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
This guy got his shipment of two 1.6 machines.
Anyone else think his posts sound a bit too calm for someone who just got the hottest piece of computer kit available x 2?

I would have slept in the office if I had just had 2 new G5s delivered. Hell I would've slept with the G5s, take off those plastic covers and you should be toasty warm all night, just watch out for all those fans.
Nothing to see, move along.
     
Eug Wanker
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Aug 20, 2003, 07:30 AM
 
Originally posted by TC:
Anyone else think his posts sound a bit too calm for someone who just got the hottest piece of computer kit available x 2?
He sounds quite normal. He's not a MacNN'er after all.

I would have slept in the office if I had just had 2 new G5s delivered. Hell I would've slept with the G5s, take off those plastic covers and you should be toasty warm all night, just watch out for all those fans.
     
macnnhelpme
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Aug 20, 2003, 08:49 AM
 
That guy is full of it. Sorry, not buying it.
     
KidRed
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Aug 20, 2003, 09:28 AM
 
Originally posted by MindFad:
Man, I'm going to head to the one in the Millenium Mall next week in Orlando and see if they have them in yet. I can't wait to try one out.

Same here
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chrisutley
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Aug 20, 2003, 11:37 AM
 
Yeah, I call faker too. Still not one confirmed shipment ... I just find that odd. Even if half are duals, of everybody here you know one of us would know somebody, somehow that got an email with a tracking number or something.

If Apple is "shipping", what are they shipping and who are they shipping to! The truth is out there, trust no one!
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Aug 20, 2003, 12:34 PM
 
Originally posted by macnnhelpme:
That guy is full of it. Sorry, not buying it.
OK, whatever. No skin off my back. He hasn't posted pix yet, and it's possible he may be lying, but I don't see why you should assume that. Remember when the TiBooks came out, there were a couple of people getting them almost a week before others. Anyways, more of his posts:

I'll get pics today. The PowerMac G5 disc has OS Version 10.2.7 (g5) AHT Version 2.1 DVD Version 1.0. The keyboard is different in the location of the usb ports, and if you look at the current keyboard, there are raised plastic around the groupings of keys, while on the new keyboard, it is as if the keys sit up higher off the keyboard. It is totally different, no brekas between the F keys above the letters.

The G5 does run with the cover off the side.

Currently on the G5, altivec came in at 3.4 3975. I just got a 1.5 8628 on my dual 1.25G4. I ran again and got 3.3 4055 on the g5. Its rather quiet, with my G4 making much more noise, not that much more, but you can hear the G4 under my desk, the G5 is a much quieter. I have the picture, how do I post it here? [Eug note: I have no idea what the Altivec Fractal numbers mean.]

I had my in house publications person snap a photo of the inside, it's not the best, but it'll have to do for now. I can email it to someone who is willing to post for me
     
Eug Wanker
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Aug 20, 2003, 01:35 PM
 
This is from that guy. And it's the first single G5 pic I've seen.

     
Hydra
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Aug 20, 2003, 01:43 PM
 
Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
This is from that guy. And it's the first single G5 pic I've seen.
That is about the saddest picture I have ever seen. That G5 looks so lonely by itself.

That must be the first known single G5 picture? I don't recall ever seeing one before. Thanks for the picture.

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macnnhelpme
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Aug 20, 2003, 01:43 PM
 
That's cool, looks like I was wrong. Still can't figure out why Yale got them before anyone else but maybe it is a testing thing, I dunno.
     
hunkhuang
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Aug 20, 2003, 02:00 PM
 
They ship G5 with OSX 10.2.7 ??

kidding?


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kakashi
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Aug 20, 2003, 02:02 PM
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
[B]This is from that guy. And it's the first single G5 pic I've seen.



Thanks for bringing the appleinsider post to our attention! I've been looking forward to some kinda info on the g5's people have bought for a while now. People on macnn are way too paranoid/skeptical sometimes.
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Eug Wanker
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Aug 20, 2003, 02:03 PM
 
Originally posted by hunkhuang:
They ship G5 with OSX 10.2.7 ??

kidding?
Not kidding. It comes with X.2.7 Smeagol.
     
scottiB
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Aug 20, 2003, 02:07 PM
 
I was lucky enough to iChatAV with him, and he swept his iSight all around and in the G5.

Very nice.

Time to go to the Apple Store over the next couple days.
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Eug Wanker
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Aug 20, 2003, 02:20 PM
 
Originally posted by scottiB:
I was lucky enough to iChatAV with him, and he swept his iSight all around and in the G5.
Schweet!

Any screengrabs?
     
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Aug 20, 2003, 02:41 PM
 
Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Schweet!

Any screengrabs?
Yes:

http://www.apple.com/hardware/galler...n2003_480.html

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NYCFarmboy
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Aug 20, 2003, 02:46 PM
 
wow ...so much extra space in there.

could you like store stuff there?

     
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Aug 20, 2003, 02:47 PM
 
Originally posted by scottiB:
I was lucky enough to iChatAV with him, and he swept his iSight all around and in the G5.

Very nice.

Time to go to the Apple Store over the next couple days.
The Apple store in Durham, NC will reportedly get the G5 tomorrow. Not sure whether they will be on display right away, but they should be for sure on friday.

villa
     
-Q-
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Aug 20, 2003, 03:19 PM
 
Originally posted by macnnhelpme:
That's cool, looks like I was wrong. Still can't figure out why Yale got them before anyone else but maybe it is a testing thing, I dunno.
Our User Group just had Apple as a speaker yesterday. The rep 'unofficially' confirmed that Apple has been sending some of the initial G5 orders to their larger clients. Gotta keep those customers writing million dollar checks happy.
     
idyll
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Aug 20, 2003, 03:52 PM
 
I guess the "smaller" clients will be getting their G5s according to their estimated shipping dates - near the end of next week.
     
NYK Ace
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Aug 20, 2003, 04:23 PM
 
apple store buffalo, ny

12:21 PM

Everything is set up for G5s the pictures are up, the front store display is up, the window display is up, people have the G5 T Shirts on... all thats missing is??

Oh right, the G5....
     
scottiB
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Aug 20, 2003, 04:59 PM
 
Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Schweet!

Any screengrabs?
Sorry, no. He wouldn't hold the iSight still enough for anything of good quality. I know what it's like to have essentially a mouse-eye's view of the empty HD bay, though. Very invigorating.

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Aug 20, 2003, 05:52 PM
 
How about a pic of the keyboard, please.
     
 
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