[kennethmac2000]

What was the thinking behind removing all the cool stuff by default?

I'm talking about everything that you can now find in /usr/share/tcsh/examples. It all used to be turned on by default. Now it isn't.

What on earth was the point!?

[ZnU]

This probably happened as a result of syncing up with FreeBSD 4.4.

[voodoo]

How do you turn it back on?!?

Can you turn it back on?

Is this the reason many commands have disappeared? Like

l

ll

and the suggestions, like when you wrote

lz

the terminal would suggest

ls?

What happened!

[Diggory Laycock]

Originally posted by voodoo:
How do you turn it back on?!?

Can you turn it back on?

Is this the reason many commands have disappeared? Like

l

ll

and the suggestions, like when you wrote

lz

the terminal would suggest

ls?

What happened!

Try looking in the "Mac OS X - Unix" forum:
http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=117551

[piracy]

Ok. First of all, the reason all the terminal stuff got changed (aliases, completions, behavior, etc), is because it was all Wilfredo Sanchez's PERSONAL settings. Apple was asked to remove these in the default install of 10.2. However, all the stuff is still there in

/usr/share/tcsh/examples

If you want everything back, all you literally have to do is execute these three commands:

echo "source /usr/share/tcsh/examples/rc" > ~/.tcshrc
echo "source /usr/share/tcsh/examples/login" > ~/.login
echo "source /usr/share/tcsh/examples/logout" > ~/.logout

That adds each source statement to their respective files in your home directory. If you want to do it systemwide for all users, or want more info, see:

/usr/share/tcsh/examples/README

----

DON'T FREAK OUT people just because things are a little different. Christ, you act like Apple is purposely trying to SCREW YOU personally, and they're just arbirarily making random changes specifically to piss off users. All of the improvements in Darwin are WELCOME, and yes, it may mean a few changes or minor modifications for things like fink. But people are freaking out about some parts of fink, for example, being broken, when Jaguar isn't even officially released yet (yes, I'm fully aware some machines are shipping with upgrade CDs, etc...that amount is small potatoes in the big picture before the 24th). Calm down people.

[Kristoff]

Originally posted by piracy:
Ok. First of all, the reason all the terminal stuff got changed (aliases, completions, behavior, etc), is because it was all Wilfredo Sanchez's PERSONAL settings. Apple was asked to remove these in the default install of 10.2. However, all the stuff is still there in

/usr/share/tcsh/examples

Actually, these were part of MIT Project Athena, which Fred worked on. They are used all over the place (not just in OS X). Who asked Apple to move them? Fred?

[dfiler]

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
What was the thinking behind removing all the cool stuff by default?

I'm talking about everything that you can now find in /usr/share/tcsh/examples. It all used to be turned on by default. Now it isn't.

What on earth was the point!?

Quick comment on this thread's title...

Terminal(.app) is a program that has nothing to do with the changes you are talking about. A similar mistake would be to say that Internet Explorer was broken because a website changed to a worse user interface.

It looks like much of the MacOS X community is making this mistake and we may ruin the definition of 'terminal', making its use quite ambiguous.

Example: The word strafe was hyjacked by the Doom community and now a whole generation of kids thinks it means 'to sidestep'.

[kennethmac2000]

Your analogy is slightly tenuous. The default shell setup has rather more effect on a user's experience of the Terminal than any one website has on their experience of a particular web browser.

I obviously know what the distinction is, but many people don't, nor do they know how to fix Apple's messing around.

And the fix identified above doesn't solve the whole problem. When logging in remotely, the shell initialization scripts bomb out half way through because Apple added a rather cheap and nasty bit of code to the aliases file:

if("$TERM_PROGRAM" == "Apple_Terminal") then
alias settermtitle 'echo -n "^[]2;\!:1^G"'
endif

This obviously fails when the environment variable TERM_PROGRAM has not been set, so the above code fragment should have been wrapped in a check for the existence of the environment variable in the first place.

Didn't Apple test anything in 10.2?

[Alex Duffield]

If you cant figure out how to turn this stuff back on, you probably shouldnt be messing with it...

[kennethmac2000]

Originally posted by Alex Duffield:
If you cant figure out how to turn this stuff back on, you probably shouldnt be messing with it...

Really? So users shouldn't be allowed to use the 'l' alias to get a file listing in long format unless they know how to hack about with login scripts? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

[JLL]

Originally posted by Alex Duffield:
If you cant figure out how to turn this stuff back on, you probably shouldnt be messing with it...

That's not the point!

[rantweasel]

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:


Really? So users shouldn't be allowed to use the 'l' alias to get a file listing in long format unless they know how to hack about with login scripts?

Well, yes. If you can't be bothered to learn how to set up an alias, then you really shouldn't be using the terminal. You can do a lot of damage via the CLI, and if reading directions or consulting with others is too much of a burden, you shouldn't be mucking about. Just like you shouldn't drive a car if you can't be bothered to get a license.

[Kristoff]

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:


And the fix identified above doesn't solve the whole problem. When logging in remotely, the shell initialization scripts bomb out half way through because Apple added a rather cheap and nasty bit of code to the aliases file:

if("$TERM_PROGRAM" == "Apple_Terminal") then
alias settermtitle 'echo -n "^[]2;\!:1^G"'
endif

This obviously fails when the environment variable TERM_PROGRAM has not been set, so the above code fragment should have been wrapped in a check for the existence of the environment variable in the first place.

Didn't Apple test anything in 10.2?

Yeah..I noticed that too...

But, why not tell the uninitiated among us the fix?

if("$?TERM_PROGRAM" == "Apple_Terminal") then
alias settermtitle 'echo -n "^[]2;\!:1^G"'
endif

[pahroza]

Originally posted by rantweasel:


Well, yes. If you can't be bothered to learn how to set up an alias, then you really shouldn't be using the terminal. You can do a lot of damage via the CLI, and if reading directions or consulting with others is too much of a burden, you shouldn't be mucking about. Just like you shouldn't drive a car if you can't be bothered to get a license.

Wow, so if you don't know how to program a VCR or DVD player, you shouldn't be watching a video on it, correct? If you don't know how to program yourself a new web browser, you shouldn't be using one, right? Get over yourself, it takes time for people to learn, and any help they have doing so is worth it.

[Diggory Laycock]

Of course this is all darwin stuff - so if you think something is broken talk to the darwin list.

Don't forget that half the OS is open source...

[eep!]

Orginally posted by rantweasel:

Well, yes. If you can't be bothered to learn how to set up an alias, then you really shouldn't be using the terminal. You can do a lot of damage via the CLI, and if reading directions or consulting with others is too much of a burden, you shouldn't be mucking about. Just like you shouldn't drive a car if you can't be bothered to get a license.

A slight over-exageration perhaps?

Originally posted by Diggory Laycock:

Don't forget that half the OS is open source...

Isn't the whole OS Open Source? Isn't the window manager (quartz) just an app that runs on top of the OS?

oh, and I don't have /usr/share/tcsh. is this just a 10.2 thing? (I'm running 10.1.5)

[Mactoid]

Originally posted by eep!:
Isn't the whole OS Open Source? Isn't the window manager (quartz) just an app that runs on top of the OS?

This is technically true, but the system API's are also often included in the definition of an OS. If you believe that, than the Cocoa and Carbon frameworks's are a closed source part of the OS.

[brainchild2b]

In 10.2 Apple changed things with terminal to better match up with NIX systems. Smart move on their part. They want more broadbase compatibility. Makes the NIX geeks have more reasons to switch.

[Brazuca]

Wow, all this discussion and yet no answer.

When I started off with X I never used a CLI before (well, a little DOS, but that is a POS).

So I started playing with it. Not in root, and being careful. And I learned a little bit each time. When I got stuck I would post here and get some very good answers.

Now people are saying that I shouldn't have done that? That they are not willing to teach something they purport to know? A little arrogant I think...

[Sarc]

Originally posted by piracy:
Ok. First of all, the reason all the terminal stuff got changed (aliases, completions, behavior, etc), is because it was all Wilfredo Sanchez's PERSONAL settings. Apple was asked to remove these in the default install of 10.2. However, all the stuff is still there in

/usr/share/tcsh/examples

If you want everything back, all you literally have to do is execute these three commands:

echo "source /usr/share/tcsh/examples/rc" > ~/.tcshrc
echo "source /usr/share/tcsh/examples/login" > ~/.login
echo "source /usr/share/tcsh/examples/logout" > ~/.logout

That adds each source statement to their respective files in your home directory. If you want to do it systemwide for all users, or want more info, see:

/usr/share/tcsh/examples/README

Well ... I did that and when I open a new terminal I get this:
Welcome to Darwin!
/usr/share/tsch/examples/login: No such file or directory.

And I still can't type Bill Gates on my terminal and get the propper response (try it in 10.1 )

Sarc

[billybob]

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
In 10.2 Apple changed things with terminal to better match up with NIX systems. Smart move on their part. They want more broadbase compatibility. Makes the NIX geeks have more reasons to switch.

I'm sorry, but that's just BS. Any self respecting unix geek wouldn't be caught dead using tcsh. They all use bash. Apple's defaults messing with unix geeks just wouldn't happen because the first thing any unix geek would do is switch to bash. The defaults that apple had previously were really nice IMHO, and good for newbies.

On a side note, anyone notice that bash is included with osx now? It wasn't before. Try typing "bash" in the terminal and there ye have it.

[kennethmac2000]

Don't know if this related to the other problems with the shell configuration, but does anyone know why typing 'telnet localhost' at the command prompt in 10.2 produces the following error before successfully connecting?

%telnet localhost
Trying ::1...
telnet: connect to address ::1: Connection refused
Trying 127.0.0.1...
Connected to localhost.

What is ::1 and why is telnet trying to connect to it?

[noliv]

Originally posted by Brazuca:
Wow, all this discussion and yet no answer.

If you want tab completion, type set autolist = true

If you don't want to type that each time you open a new terminal, put the command on a file which is executed each time you open a new terminal. This file is .tcshrc which must be located in your home directory.

If you want to set more as the defaut pager, add a line in your .tcshrc file: setenv PAGER more

If you want to create an alias (ex: ll for ls -al), add a line with: alias ll ls -al

Another interresting thing to know:
When you are in a folder and you want to execute a script or CLI app in it, you usually have to type ./nameOfTheScript
Why this "./" ?
Because if you just type nameOfTheScript, tcsh will search a command called nameOfTheScript in several fixed folders (/bin...)
The folder list that tcsh will use is called $PATH.
You can add a directory to $PATH; for example, you can add "." which will mean "the actual directory", and that way you wont have to type "./" before the name of an app.
To to that, add a line in you .tcshrc file with setenv PATH $PATH":." (setenv is the command, PATH is what we edit, and $PATH":." is the new value: $PATH is the old value to which we add :. (":" is the separator and "." is the name of the directory))


English is not my mother tongue, please correct my mistakes or tell me if I'm not clear...

[Coxy]

Originally posted by billybob:


I'm sorry, but that's just BS. Any self respecting unix geek wouldn't be caught dead using tcsh. They all use bash.

No, all of the Linux weenies use bash. Traditional Unix people that I know use tcsh or zsh.

[kennethmac2000]

Originally posted by noliv:
Another interresting thing to know:
When you are in a folder and you want to execute a script or CLI app in it, you usually have to type ./nameOfTheScript
Why this "./" ?
Because if you just type nameOfTheScript, tcsh will search a command called nameOfTheScript in several fixed folders (/bin...)
The folder list that tcsh will use is called $PATH.
You can add a directory to $PATH; for example, you can add "." which will mean "the actual directory", and that way you wont have to type "./" before the name of an app.
To to that, add a line in you .tcshrc file with setenv PATH $PATH":." (setenv is the command, PATH is what we edit, and $PATH":." is the new value: $PATH is the old value to which we add :. (":" is the separator and "." is the name of the directory))

Yes, I've always wondered why . isn't included by default in any UNIX PATH environment variable. It's really annoying having to add it manually to the initialization script every time I get a new version of an OS.

And, making reference to my earlier post, anyone know yet what ::1 is and why telnet is trying to connect to it?

[Moose]

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
Don't know if this related to the other problems with the shell configuration, but does anyone know why typing 'telnet localhost' at the command prompt in 10.2 produces the following error before successfully connecting?

%telnet localhost
Trying ::1...
telnet: connect to address ::1: Connection refused
Trying 127.0.0.1...
Connected to localhost.

What is ::1 and why is telnet trying to connect to it?

IPv6's localhost IP address:

Code:
portamoose:~> ping6 -c1 localhost
PING6(56=40+8+8 bytes) ::1 --> ::1
16 bytes from ::1, icmp_seq=0 hlim=64 time=0.288 ms

--- localhost ping6 statistics ---
1 packets transmitted, 1 packets received, 0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max = 0.288/0.288/0.288 ms
portamoose:~>

Telnet is now IPv6-aware, so if it can find an AAAA record for a host (or an IPv6 address in the local hosts database), it'll try that address before the IPv4 address.

[kennethmac2000]

Originally posted by Moose:
Telnet is now IPv6-aware, so if it can find an AAAA record for a host (or an IPv6 address in the local hosts database), it'll try that address before the IPv4 address.

Ah, but telnetd is not IPv6-aware, right? Or can telnetd be made to listen on an IPv6 IP address?

[Mactoid]

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
Yes, I've always wondered why . isn't included by default in any UNIX PATH environment variable. It's really annoying having to add it manually to the initialization script every time I get a new version of an OS.

"." is not included in $PATH out of security considerations. It is not advisable to include it unless you don't give a whit about security on your system. It's not typically going to be a major problem, but I think it's worth the trivial bit of extra effort required to prepend a "./" to the occasional commands that are not found in $PATH.

[Marshall]

Originally posted by Sarc:

Well ... I did that and when I open a new terminal I get this:
Welcome to Darwin!
/usr/share/tsch/examples/login: No such file or directory.

The c and s are swapped in your example above; it looks like you need to correct the spelling in your .login file.

[Marshall]

To expand upon Mactoid's explanation of why "." is not included in the default path: suppose you downloaded some archive from (what you might not have known to be) a questionable source. This archive happened to include some malicious code in an executable called "ls" or some other common binary. You go into the directory, type "ls" to show its contents, and the malicious version executes -- and if it was written well, you wouldn't even know.

You could avoid this particular scenario by appending "." to the end of your path, so that the normal executable is found first, but that still leaves room for executables named after spelling errors...or commands that might be somewhat common, but are not in your current path for some reason.

It's just a bit safer to make your intentions clear by typing the initial "./" in front of the command...at least as a default.

[Eddies in the aether]

Originally posted by piracy:
Ok. First of all, the reason all the terminal stuff got changed (aliases, completions, behavior, etc), is because it was all Wilfredo Sanchez's PERSONAL settings. Apple was asked to remove these in the default install of 10.2. However, all the stuff is still there in

/usr/share/tcsh/examples

If you want everything back, all you literally have to do is execute these three commands:

echo "source /usr/share/tcsh/examples/rc" > ~/.tcshrc
echo "source /usr/share/tcsh/examples/login" > ~/.login
echo "source /usr/share/tcsh/examples/logout" > ~/.logout

That adds each source statement to their respective files in your home directory. If you want to do it systemwide for all users, or want more info, see:

/usr/share/tcsh/examples/README

Thanks for posting this, now I have my customised prompt back!

[pinlo]

Originally posted by pahroza:


Wow, so if you don't know how to program a VCR or DVD player, you shouldn't be watching a video on it, correct? If you don't know how to program yourself a new web browser, you shouldn't be using one, right? Get over yourself, it takes time for people to learn, and any help they have doing so is worth it.

The main point to keep in mind here is that Unix is a cruel mistress. There is a "price of admission", and this is why Apple made using Terminal purely optional. Unix will do exactly what you want, but it assumes you know exactly what you're doing. People should not misread this fact as others being arrogant or unhelpful.

If you plan to be messing around in any Unix shell, you have a responsibility to dig in a little and learn some of what's behind it all. It's really for your own good, and for the safety of your system. The deeper you dig into it, the more you'll get out of it.

[Mactoid]

Originally posted by pinlo:
The main point to keep in mind here is that Unix is a cruel mistress....

The original post by rantweasel did come across as a bit abrasive. Part of me wanted to agree with him but part of me felt I shouldn't. Anyway, that was very well put pinlo and I can now agree with it whole heartedly without guilt. Yes, you should not be using the terminal if you have to rely on apple to configure it for you.

Realistically, much worse could happen to you in the terminal that your "ll" alias breaking. If you have no real knowledge of the terminal and can't even handle setting up your environement than you could very well be screwed. The point is simple: Learn your tools!

[pmcd]

Originally posted by Mactoid:
Realistically, much worse could happen to you in the terminal that your "ll" alias breaking. If you have no real knowledge of the terminal and can't even handle setting up your environement than you could very well be screwed. The point is simple: Learn your tools!

The nice thing about the Mac and other systems, but not traditional Unix, is that you can learn as you go. It's great to have strong Unix people using the Mac platform. However the platform can do without some of the more paternalistic types who feel that everyone has nothing better to do than to become a systems' type.

Hopefully the more elitist Unix people will learn a thing or two from Mac users who may not be Unix gurus but are experts in a variety of fields that use the Mac and isn't that the point after all?

philip

[gorgonzola]

Originally posted by billybob:


I'm sorry, but that's just BS. Any self respecting unix geek wouldn't be caught dead using tcsh. They all use bash. Apple's defaults messing with unix geeks just wouldn't happen because the first thing any unix geek would do is switch to bash. The defaults that apple had previously were really nice IMHO, and good for newbies.

On a side note, anyone notice that bash is included with osx now? It wasn't before. Try typing "bash" in the terminal and there ye have it.

Actually, that's completely false. On the BSD side (which OS X is), the vast majority of people use tcsh or zsh. bash was only included because it's much closer to sh than the other two, and so is much more suitable for generic shell scripting. Most bash users are Linux geeks, not Unix geeks.

As for why . is not in $PATH by default, it's because most people don't like it that way. It can be a bit of a hazard and it's quite easy to end up executing the wrong things because . is in your path. You can add it if you really want it.

And I dunno if telnet is IPv6-aware (wait, why are you using telnet instead of SSH?), but OpenSSH is. To be honest, IPv6 isn't worth mucking around with much right now, because there's simply not that much IPv6-enabled stuff to play with.

The nice thing about the Mac and other systems, but not traditional Unix, is that you can learn as you go. It's great to have strong Unix people using the Mac platform. However the platform can do without some of the more paternalistic types who feel that everyone has nothing better to do than to become a systems' type.

I'd agree with criticizing the patronizing attitude that some Unix experts hold, but I would also agree that there is some validity to their point. Mac users know all sorts of crazy things about the Mac side of things and not give it another thought. Just because Unix has a little bit of an initial learning curve doesn't mean that that doesn't apply.

And IMHO, Unix is just as much learn-as-you-go as Mac OS is. I haven't consulted a single actual book in my learning experience; it's all just playing around with things and then consulting the docs when you need to.

My 2�.

[diamondsw]

Originally posted by pinlo:


The main point to keep in mind here is that Unix is a cruel mistress. There is a "price of admission", and this is why Apple made using Terminal purely optional. Unix will do exactly what you want, but it assumes you know exactly what you're doing. People should not misread this fact as others being arrogant or unhelpful.

If you plan to be messing around in any Unix shell, you have a responsibility to dig in a little and learn some of what's behind it all. It's really for your own good, and for the safety of your system. The deeper you dig into it, the more you'll get out of it.

Man pages are your friend.

[kennethmac2000]

Originally posted by gorgonzola:
wait, why are you using telnet instead of SSH?

LOL. You sound like an Apple support bod.

I always enable telnet access on my Mac OS X boxes because:
(i) It connects quicker than SSH.
(ii) Windows users (including myself) on my LAN can connect to my machine without having to install additional software.
(iii) You can't access my LAN from outside anyway so security is not an issue.

Since the word patronizing has come up a few times in this thread, I wish Apple would stop being so patronizing in only allowing me to enable SSH through the GUI.

[absmiths]

Originally posted by billybob:


I'm sorry, but that's just BS. Any self respecting unix geek wouldn't be caught dead using tcsh. They all use bash.

You really need to rephrase that as "I wouldn't be caught dead...", as you clearly do not have a view of the greater Unix world. Every Solaris machine I have ever used didn't even include bash - it was tcsh only. I worked on a SCO machine and all it had was sh! Same with Unidata.

So you see, it could be a lot worse. Most of the outcry against tcsh comes from the Linux community who generally assume that they are the enlightened of the Unix world.

[absmiths]

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:

Since the word patronizing has come up a few times in this thread, I wish Apple would stop being so patronizing in only allowing me to enable SSH through the GUI.

Why do you see it that way? Apple cannot reasonably present both options to normal users since they would have no idea what the diffence is. I am sure that OS X Server has tools for running telnet and all the other daemons.

Apple did the right thing in my opinion by moving to the best thing out there, and giving the average joe user a higher level of security than they knew to ask for, and using standard tools so that anyone on your network could easily download ssh and connect.

[Alex Duffield]

Originally posted by pahroza:


Wow, so if you don't know how to program a VCR or DVD player, you shouldn't be watching a video on it, correct? If you don't know how to program yourself a new web browser, you shouldn't be using one, right? Get over yourself, it takes time for people to learn, and any help they have doing so is worth it.

I agree, but if that is your argument, than the fact that Apple "Broke" this is a good thing, because it makes those people that are just learning have to figure out how and why to make it work again...

I have no problems with Mac folk wanting to learn the terminal, it is a new world for most Mac users, but the subject of this thread was not "how do I make this work" (Solutions oriented), but "Why did Apple break this!!??" (Complaint oriented)

I have no use for people that just complain. If someone truly wants to learn they say �How can I�� not just complaining that it is different or that Apple broke it.

[tinrib]

Originally posted by billybob:


I'm sorry, but that's just BS. Any self respecting unix geek wouldn't be caught dead using tcsh. They all use bash. Apple's defaults messing with unix geeks just wouldn't happen because the first thing any unix geek would do is switch to bash. The defaults that apple had previously were really nice IMHO, and good for newbies.

On a side note, anyone notice that bash is included with osx now? It wasn't before. Try typing "bash" in the terminal and there ye have it.

bash? ugh. I use zsh or tcsh depending on what is available. zsh rocks.

[zpincus]

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
Since the word patronizing has come up a few times in this thread, I wish Apple would stop being so patronizing in only allowing me to enable SSH through the GUI.

Now I'll be patronizing:

Have you tried editing the /etc/hostconfig file and changing the flag after "SSHSERVER" ? Because that tends to turn the SSH server on or off (after a reboot) from the CLI.

Not to mention that in a pinch, you could "sudo nohup /usr/sbin/sshd &" to enable SSH until the next reboot.

Zach

[Gul Banana]

Originally posted by tinrib:


bash? ugh. I use zsh or tcsh depending on what is available. zsh rocks.

Zsh is funny, it has built-in vi I'd like to learn it better, too - the only real reason that I prefer tcsh is that I know it well. Bash, though, I do not like at all. Good for scripting, but it's a pain for everyday use.

[Sarc]

Originally posted by Marshall:


The c and s are swapped in your example above; it looks like you need to correct the spelling in your .login file.

Thanks !

Sarc