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OAW · Sep 26, 2002, 01:24 PM

Should it simply follow Chimera's lead and utililze aqua tabs? Or should it implement a "drawer" approach along the line of the new Preview application in Jaguar? Or is there an even better approach?

It seems to me that the advantage of the Chimera approach is that only takes up a small amount of space for the tabs, whereas, the Preview "drawer" approach would provide for a more graphical approach, but takes up a lot more screen real estate. Then again, if the drawer could be implemented on any edge of the browser at the user's discretion, and if it could be resizable, then a user could perhaps display it along the bottom of the browser window and not take up much more space than tabs.

Any other ideas or suggestions?

OAW

Guy Incognito · Sep 26, 2002, 01:29 PM

Using Aqua native tabs would be a very poor approach since TABS AREN'T MEANT TO BE USED THAT WAY.

Either create custom tabs so they can be sorted, moved, right-clicked, whatever or some brand new approach.

Tabbed-browsing = poor UI direction no matter if people like it or not. It's a gimmick...a fad...it's almost as cool as the genie effect.

Guy Incognito · Sep 26, 2002, 01:33 PM

A drop down menu from a toolbar icon would do the exact same as tabbed browsing...and take up less screen estate and be cleaner. Of course, it wouldn't solve the problem of being able to sort or manipulate these pages.

A drawer might be better, but I'm still not sure if it's the best approach since people will complain that since they do all their browsing this way, that a drawer (an optional GUI object) should not be used. But whatever.

Zimphire · Sep 26, 2002, 01:34 PM

Hmm Apple uses the tabs in the same way.

I use Chimera BECAUSE Of the tabs.

hyperizer · Sep 26, 2002, 01:37 PM

Slightly OT, but I'd rather they get CSS rendering right before they implement any new features.

Guy Incognito · Sep 26, 2002, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Hmm Apple uses the tabs in the same way.

Can you provide an example?

The only reason people like tabs is because it's never been done another way before...there probably are better solutions out there. I've got a few ideas myself.

Justin W. Williams · Sep 26, 2002, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:

Can you provide an example?

The only reason people like tabs is because it's never been done another way before...there probably are better solutions out there. I've got a few ideas myself.

Care to elaborate? I'd like to know your ideas.

Personally, I hate tabbed browsing. it is way too bloody slow to switch between tabs on my iBook 500.

Zimphire · Sep 26, 2002, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:

Can you provide an example?

The only reason people like tabs is because it's never been done another way before...there probably are better solutions out there. I've got a few ideas myself.

Just look in the pref panes. Photoshop does it the same way. If you have a better soultion. Share with the class.

gregpins · Sep 26, 2002, 02:09 PM

Dude, I mean no offense, but stuff like "tabbed browsing = bad UI" cracks me up. Says who? Is there some UI bible that says "thou shalt not tab browsers?

People are voting with their feet. Most of the posts I have ever read on Chimera and Mozilla cite tabbed browsing as a key reason for adoption. OmniWeb can't beat 'em, so they're joning them. But I wholeheartedly agree that they could have the best tabbing scheme in the world, and I still won't use OW if it can't freakin' render ESPN.com right.

Developer · Sep 26, 2002, 02:36 PM

I think if they did it like AppleWorks or Excel it would be nice.

pliny · Sep 26, 2002, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Justin W. Williams:

it is way too bloody slow to switch between tabs on my iBook 500.

hm, that's a new one. wonder what gives there.

i seem to remember browsing without tabs but it is very foggy now.

OAW · Sep 26, 2002, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
A drop down menu from a toolbar icon would do the exact same as tabbed browsing...and take up less screen estate and be cleaner. Of course, it wouldn't solve the problem of being able to sort or manipulate these pages.

A drawer might be better, but I'm still not sure if it's the best approach since people will complain that since they do all their browsing this way, that a drawer (an optional GUI object) should not be used. But whatever.

Good points. So what if OW 5 implemented a "tab" bar by using standard toolbar icons? The icons would dynamically display a thumbnail of the page and a text page title. The user could display "Icon & Text", "Icon only", or "Text only" ... large or small icons. The user could Command + Drag the icons into any order that s/he wanted. The user could right click an icon and bring up the standard OW contextual menu for a web page, etc. This approach has all the benefits of "tabs", and none of the drawbacks of "drawers"!

OAW

Mediaman_12 · Sep 26, 2002, 03:22 PM

With an option to turn it off and use the browser with multiple windows.
EG. I can be replying to this thread while another page loads in a 2nd window, with tabbed browsing I couldn't keep an eye on what was going on in the other window.

OAW · Sep 26, 2002, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
With an option to turn it off and use the browser with multiple windows.
EG. I can be replying to this thread while another page loads in a 2nd window, with tabbed browsing I couldn't keep an eye on what was going on in the other window.

Of course. Even in Chimera the use of "tabs" is optional.

OAW

Justin W. Williams · Sep 26, 2002, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by gregpins:
Dude, I mean no offense, but stuff like "tabbed browsing = bad UI" cracks me up. Says who? Is there some UI bible that says "thou shalt not tab browsers?

http://humane.sourceforge.net/jefweb...led/index.html

smeger · Sep 26, 2002, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
A drop down menu from a toolbar icon would do the exact same as tabbed browsing...and take up less screen estate and be cleaner. Of course, it wouldn't solve the problem of being able to sort or manipulate these pages.

A drawer might be better, but I'm still not sure if it's the best approach since people will complain that since they do all their browsing this way, that a drawer (an optional GUI object) should not be used. But whatever.

A drop-down menu is a bad choice.

I don't really care how they implement it as long as I've got the following:

Minimal extra screen real-estate used
Titles of all available tabs visible (within reason, of course)
Lots of tabs possible (it's not unusual for me to have 30-40 open)
One-click access to any page (again, within reason)
Keyboard shortcuts for next & previous tabs (or a key-command that lets me type the first few letters of a page title to switch to that tab)

Incidentally, the main reason that I like tabs is that OS X uses bucketloads of RAM for each window you've got onscreen. Tabs lets me have lots of content available without the time & memory overhead of lots of windows.

If you've got a better UI idea that keeps the features I've listed, I'm all for it!

Guy Incognito · Sep 26, 2002, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Just look in the pref panes. Photoshop does it the same way. If you have a better soultion. Share with the class.

Ummm...Apple uses tabs the way they *are* intended to be used: to group UI objects that share a same goal for purposes of separating UI objects that don't belong together.

Tabs aren't meant to disappear, appear, be moved, be right-clicked on. Especially not the native OS tabs.

Either Chimera implements their own tabs that can satisfy all this without hacking the native Aqua tab or they find a better solution. Right now tabbed-browsing sucks my balls.

Guy Incognito · Sep 26, 2002, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by smeger:
[*]Lots of tabs possible (it's not unusual for me to have 30-40 open)

You're crazy...the computer can't possibly cache that many pages. You might as well just create bookmarks at this point because you computer will have to reload/refresh the page anyhow once you click on the tab.

Have you ever resized your browser window with 30-40 tabbed pages? I bet not, because you're computer would certainly explode the way Chimera has it set up right now.

Northform · Sep 26, 2002, 04:23 PM

I would like a drawer if it could be positioned horizontally at the bottom of the window.

Don't be like Preview.app and put images of the webpages in the tabs/drawers. It takes too much CPU power and doesn't have a good effect for web pages. The name should suffice. (More like the drawers in Proteus or Aquisition).

Fixed width Aqua tabs are OK, but not variable width ones.

PUT YOUR FINDER IN LIST VIEW. YOU SEE THE BARS THAT SORT BY DIFFERENT CATEGORIES. WHY NOT HAVE EACH PAGE AS A BAR LIKE THAT WITH THE ACTIVE ONE HIGHLIGHTED IN BLUE (NO ARROW OF COURSE). IT SEPERATES EACH PAGE, USES LESS SPACE THAN TABS (OMNI COULD MAKE THEM VARIABLE HEIGHT) AND WOULD FIT IN NICELY WITH THEIR BROWSER.

Justin W. Williams · Sep 26, 2002, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:

Have you ever resized your browser window with 30-40 tabbed pages? I bet not, because you're computer would certainly explode the way Chimera has it set up right now.

agreed.

Zimphire · Sep 26, 2002, 04:34 PM

Eh, I have no problems with the way Chimera does it, and I am betting most people don't as well.

I can understand your concerns about following a UI guidline though.

Guy Incognito · Sep 26, 2002, 04:34 PM

I've got 14 tabs open right now...everything is truncated to 2-3 letter words. Real useful!

No way to sort. No way to remove a tab with simple dragging, no way to remove a tab with a simple right-click context menu. Why? Cuz TABS DON'T WORK THAT WAY!

Sure...there's cmd-w you say. That's not even standard behavior. Cmd-w = close the furkin' window...cmd-w != close a tab.

Chimera deviates from many standards. If you think that's fine and dandy...go use a PC. But don't taint the Mac GUI with this ridiculousness. Apple is already stepping in the wrong direction with some of the brushed-metal apps...let's not follow Apple with bad-UI decisions.

Yes, thou shalt not tab browsers!!!

edit: and this is my last post about this subject...I don't like saying this 'cuz it makes people furious and people are entitled to their own opinions but "I'm right and everyone that disagrees is wrong." There are GUI rules out there...they're not set in stone but people have to follow them or end up with Linux...)

Sharky K. · Sep 26, 2002, 04:46 PM

how about a pallet with all cached webpages in a sorted list?

When you drag an url from an other application into the pallet it loads the webpage without showing it...

smeger · Sep 26, 2002, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:

You're crazy...the computer can't possibly cache that many pages. You might as well just create bookmarks at this point because you computer will have to reload/refresh the page anyhow once you click on the tab.

Have you ever resized your browser window with 30-40 tabbed pages? I bet not, because you're computer would certainly explode the way Chimera has it set up right now.

Nope, it works great! Switching between tabs is (nearly) instantaneous, and I'm not on a very powerful machine.

But, no, I've never resized the window while it's in this state. I use tabs so I don't have to resize the freakin' window

smeger · Sep 26, 2002, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
how about a pallet with all cached webpages in a sorted list?

When you drag an url from an other application into the pallet it loads the webpage without showing it...

I like this idea. It could be a floater so you can click a title to load any cached page in the same window, or you could have a keycommand that means "discard the currently cached page and show the next one"

cpac · Sep 26, 2002, 05:26 PM

Along the lines of the "cached page" pallet, why not just extend OW's already great bookmark control and allow you to set a preference to "load these pages on opening" - they could get a different color lightning zap and things showing they were ready to be displayed at any time, possibly having their own "bar" like favorites do...

cpac · Sep 26, 2002, 05:31 PM

actually, regardless, I think the biggest problem with "tabbed" browsing is figuring out how to name the tabs - either it has to be some ridiculously long URL, or you have to force the user to take the time to rename (time that might more easily be used to click on a bookmark and load a new page).

Using small images of the pages doesn't seem to work too well for this, as one forum/auction/news story looks just like another.

One solution would simply be to have a designated naming system (i.e. the equivalent of tab 1, 2, 3...), but again this isn't particularly descriptive of what's inside.

Perhaps those that are huge fans of tabbed browsing could explain what sorts of pages they have open at the same time (& why just bookmarking those pages wouldn't work)???

Guy Incognito · Sep 26, 2002, 06:28 PM

I'm a stinkin' liar...I'm back to talk about this.

The Favorites bar is already better for this kind of stuff than tabs. You can move the favorites around, remove them by dragging them to the trash, right-click them to perform a certain action. Why couldn't we have this for the so-called tabbed-browsing?

Once the bar is filled up, it extends downwards...there's no limits (unlike tabs).

Tabs = bad!!! I don't care if people like it or not. There are many other solutions that make more sense.

If I fed you nothing but cow ****, you'd be like "Yummy, it's good." If people only know about Windows, they're like "It's a fine OS." But they don't know any better.

swiz · Sep 26, 2002, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
I'm a stinkin' liar...I'm back to talk about this.

The Favorites bar is already better for this kind of stuff than tabs. You can move the favorites around, remove them by dragging them to the trash, right-click them to perform a certain action. Why couldn't we have this for the so-called tabbed-browsing?

Once the bar is filled up, it extends downwards...there's no limits (unlike tabs).

Tabs = bad!!! I don't care if people like it or not. There are many other solutions that make more sense.

If I fed you nothing but cow ****, you'd be like "Yummy, it's good." If people only know about Windows, they're like "It's a fine OS." But they don't know any better.

Ok, so tabs are bad. What is the right direction, without telling me to go look at the GUI rulebook. What would YOU suggest?

OAW · 06:57 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
I'm a stinkin' liar...I'm back to talk about this.

The Favorites bar is already better for this kind of stuff than tabs. You can move the favorites around, remove them by dragging them to the trash, right-click them to perform a certain action. Why couldn't we have this for the so-called tabbed-browsing?

Once the bar is filled up, it extends downwards...there's no limits (unlike tabs).

Tabs = bad!!! I don't care if people like it or not. There are many other solutions that make more sense.

If I fed you nothing but cow ****, you'd be like "Yummy, it's good." If people only know about Windows, they're like "It's a fine OS." But they don't know any better.

Guy,

So what do you think about my idea of using a toolbar like approach that I mentioned above? I think it would address most if not all of the concerns you raise. It would definitely be more usable than simple tabs, and a whole lot cooler!

OAW

::maroma:: · Sep 26, 2002, 07:05 PM

Yeah, come on Guy. We all know how you feel about tabs. Lets hear some suggestions! Got any mock-ups that we could see? (I'm a visual person, I get all confused by text

)

I would love for OW to come up with an ingenius way of solving the 'tabbed browsing' thing. I don't use Chimera, so I haven't experienced it first hand. But I agree that it breaks a lot of UI rules, and it needs to be majorly refined or ditched alltogether.

Producer · Sep 26, 2002, 07:32 PM

When is OW 5 coming Winter, Spring, Summer ?

Chimera is my main browser now but Dave Hyatt claims that OW with a new engine could take the rain as the fastest browser...it already renders the most elegently...

Guy Incognito · Sep 26, 2002, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by swiz:

Ok, so tabs are bad. What is the right direction, without telling me to go look at the GUI rulebook. What would YOU suggest?

Didn't you read my posts, I've suggested 3 things already.

1. A drop-down menu from the toolbar (this option is just as limited as tabbed-browsing but without the clutter and without the GUI-rules raping.)
2. A drawer...sure, the sacred screen-estate is being desecrated but it's already more functional than tabs. I go for functionality over screen-estate any day. You might not but you like Windows. No, no, shuttup...you *do* like Windows and therefore your opinions don't matter.
3. The Favorites bar approach.

OAW's idea is already better than the tab approach...the only problem is that the toolbar in OW is already quite full. It might work out if you set the browser for 'Show seperate location bar'...but it could still cause problems after a few pages are put into the toolbar if the browser window isn't screen-wide.

I have a few more ideas but I'll take time to make some mock-ups before someone mocks-me.

Developer · Sep 26, 2002, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
1. A drop-down menu from the toolbar (this option is just as limited as tabbed-browsing but without the clutter and without the GUI-rules raping.)

Then why not simply drop down from the menu labeled "Window"?

spiney · Sep 26, 2002, 08:00 PM

However it is implemented a way to shuffle amonng tabs with a keyboard shortcut would make things a lot faster.

Guy Incognito · Sep 26, 2002, 08:23 PM

One of my wilder ideas about remedying this problem is this one:

There'd be a toolbar button (menu option and key-combo too obviously)...once clicked, the browser itself would display in an Acquisition/Proteus-style alternating color list view the 'tabbed' webpages.

Yes, this will require two-clicks. OMG, we're all gonna die.

No, we're not because while this will require 2 clicks, it will provide 10x the functionality as tabs.

These list items (the pages) will be sortable, removable, moveable...will be able to display the page title, and url because it can span the whole width of the browser window.

I liked Northform's Preview and OAW's toolbar thumbnail ideas...so yeah, those can be displayed too.

Child pages can be grouped with the parent page.

Gimme a few seconds to make a mock up. Realize that my .mac account is going up in flames in 3 days.

Zimphire · Sep 26, 2002, 08:33 PM

I actually like the tabs better than any of those ideas. I normally don't have more than 10 tabs open at once, and run 1600x1200 so that problem never happens to me.

smeger · Sep 26, 2002, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
One of my wilder ideas about remedying this problem is this one:

There'd be a toolbar button (menu option and key-combo too obviously)...once clicked, the browser itself would display in an Acquisition/Proteus-style alternating color list view the 'tabbed' webpages.

Yes, this will require two-clicks. OMG, we're all gonna die. No, we're not because while this will require 2 clicks, it will provide 10x the functionality as tabs.

These list items (the pages) will be sortable, removable, moveable...will be able to display the page title, and url because it can span the whole width of the browser window.

I liked Northform's Preview and OAW's toolbar thumbnail ideas...so yeah, those can be displayed too.

Child pages can be grouped with the parent page.

Gimme a few seconds to make a mock up. Realize that my .mac account is going up in flames in 3 days.

So how do I quickly move to another tab without opening a new window and without taking my hands off the keyboard? Right now, I hit ctrl-fn-page down and it takes roughly half a second.

Or, how do I open a new browser without opening a new window? Right now I hit cmd-t and type the first few letters of an address.

Or, how do I dispose of the currently cached window and show the next one? Right now, I hit cmd-w (which I agree is a bad choice from a UI point of view).

None of these operations takes me more than three seconds.

And I do this stuff a lot. I browse the web by loading a page and cmd-clicking a bunch of links on it to open things I find interesting in new tabs in the background. When I've clicked everything I find interesting on the initial page, I close that tab. Then, the first thing that I'd found interesting appears. This is, to me, a great way to browse. I don't intend to say that it's how everyone should do it, but I dig it...

I'm also not saying that your way doesn't have merit - I think that it does. But if it's going to slow down something that I think is well-implemented now, it'd better offer something more compelling that some nebulous knowledge that it's "right."

cpac · Sep 26, 2002, 08:44 PM

Nobody who's a big fan of tabbed browsing willing to share all the pages they open up at one time?

I just don't get it... (2 or 3 sure, but command-` works pretty well to switch between a couple of windows).

Guy Incognito · 09:14 PM

Originally posted by cpac:
Nobody who's a big fan of tabbed browsing willing to share all the pages they open up at one time?

I just don't get it... (2 or 3 sure, but command-` works pretty well to switch between a couple of windows).

Exactly!

But anyways...here's a mock up of what I had in mind for those that can't simply switch between windows using cmd-` (God knows why they can't.)

Like always, they're be a key-combo to switch between pages so that you never actually have to see this list if you only have a few pages.

swiz · Sep 26, 2002, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:

Didn't you read my posts, I've suggested 3 things already.

1. A drop-down menu from the toolbar (this option is just as limited as tabbed-browsing but without the clutter and without the GUI-rules raping.)
2. A drawer...sure, the sacred screen-estate is being desecrated but it's already more functional than tabs. I go for functionality over screen-estate any day. You might not but you like Windows. No, no, shuttup...you *do* like Windows and therefore your opinions don't matter.
3. The Favorites bar approach.

OAW's idea is already better than the tab approach...the only problem is that the toolbar in OW is already quite full. It might work out if you set the browser for 'Show seperate location bar'...but it could still cause problems after a few pages are put into the toolbar if the browser window isn't screen-wide.

I have a few more ideas but I'll take time to make some mock-ups before someone mocks-me.

ummm, where did you get the notion that I like Windows? I never said I liked tabs either. For the record, Ive never owned anything other than Macs and dont care to. Any other unfounded presumptions youd like to claim? ( Im sure you'll respond with a few choice claims of my being this or that... bring it on)

Guy Incognito · Sep 26, 2002, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I actually like the tabs better than any of those ideas. I normally don't have more than 10 tabs open at once, and run 1600x1200 so that problem never happens to me.

Wow...good for you...now let's return to reality: a reality in which most people run their screens at around 1024x768. And let's find a solution for those unfortunate people: people that make up the *majority* of users out there that don't have the money for 19" screens or Cinema Displays.

Guy Incognito · Sep 26, 2002, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by swiz:

ummm, where did you get the notion that I like Windows? I never said I liked tabs either. For the record, Ive never owned anything other than Macs and dont care to. Any other unfounded presumptions youd like to claim? ( Im sure you'll respond with a few choice claims of my being this or that... bring it on)

Shaddup.

swiz · Sep 26, 2002, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:

Shaddup.

Clever. Im done. Back to the topic. Your mockup makes good sense for profficient Mac users.

smeger · Sep 26, 2002, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by cpac:
Nobody who's a big fan of tabbed browsing willing to share all the pages they open up at one time?

I just don't get it... (2 or 3 sure, but command-` works pretty well to switch between a couple of windows).

Standard browsing for me (I have cmd-click mapped to open a new tab in the background):

Open a new tab and type 'for <pause> <enter>' - loads http://forums.macnn.com
Page down twice
cmd-click OS X General
cmd-click OS X Software
click OS X Developer
ctrl-fn-page down takes me to the already-loaded OS X General while OS X Developer is still loading
cmd-click anything that looks interesting
When I get to old stuff, cmd-w to close OS X General. OS X software appears
Repeat. When done with OS X software topics, cmd-w takes me to the first of 20 tabs of posts
Read a post, hit reply or cmd-w to close it and take me to the next post.
After I've closed the last post, I'm back at OS X Development - repeat, feel brain fall onto floor

If I did this with individual windows in IE, it would start resizing my windows after I'd opened a few of them. Mozilla doesn't, but I'll start swapping out RAM way earlier than I will with tabs.

(I just reread this post, and I've decided that I'm sorta pathetic)

smeger · Sep 26, 2002, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:

Exactly!

But anyways...here's a mock up of what I had in mind for those that can't simply switch between windows using cmd-` (God knows why they can't.)

<image snipped for space>

Like always, they're be a key-combo to switch between pages so that you never actually have to see this list if you only have a few pages.

This'd be fine with me provided I could use keys and not have to see it. I'm not wedded to tabs - I just want to navigate quickly and not have to think much.

Guy Incognito · Sep 26, 2002, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by swiz:

Clever. Im done. Back to the topic. Your mockup makes good sense for profficient Mac users.

I'm sorry...I was rude.

I honestly don't mean to be.

The only problem with my idea is that for the casual person that only has a few tabbed pages, my idea sucks. My mockup is really only a solution for the people that have 8+ pages open and have tabs with truncated titles. The list view would allow for the full title and url to be displayed as well as a thumbnail preview of the page.

For the people that only have a few pages tabbed...tabbed browsing is fine enough. But I'd still go for the OmniWeb Favorites bar approach for easier manipulation of the pages.

swiz · Sep 26, 2002, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:

I'm sorry...I was rude. I honestly don't mean to be.

The only problem with my idea is that for the casual person that only has a few tabbed pages, my idea sucks. My mockup is really only a solution for the people that have 8+ pages open and have tabs with truncated titles. The list view would allow for the full title and url to be displayed as well as a thumbnail preview of the page.

For the people that only have a few pages tabbed...tabbed browsing is fine enough. But I'd still go for the OmniWeb Favorites bar approach for easier manipulation of the pages.

No problem.
Right, the most tabs I have ever had open was 5 so they are cool with me but of course, Im definitely open to new more efficient methods like those you've suggested.

foobars · Sep 26, 2002, 09:59 PM

Personally I like tabbed browsing, but I think maybe tabs aren't the right UI element to use. I'd much prefer it if the tabbed system was set up just like the favorites bar is. I think that takes up a bunch less space than tabs and looks a whole lot cleaner. Plus it allows for some cool UI effects that you woudldn't be able to pull off with tabs- you could move them around so keyboard switching was better, they could flash when the page was done loading, you could drag them off to close one, stuff like that...

OAW · Sep 26, 2002, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:

OAW's idea is already better than the tab approach...the only problem is that the toolbar in OW is already quite full. It might work out if you set the browser for 'Show seperate location bar'...but it could still cause problems after a few pages are put into the toolbar if the browser window isn't screen-wide.

I have a few more ideas but I'll take time to make some mock-ups before someone mocks-me.

Guy,

I think you might be thinking that my "toolbar" idea involves utilizing the existing toolbar. In fact, what I mean is to use toolbar icon-like widgets in their own row underneath the Favorites bar. If you wanted to mock something up (cause I'm definitely not a graphic artist by any stretch of the imagination), these icons (icons & text, icons only, or text only) would be displayed horizontally underneath the favorites bar in the same area that the tabs display in Chimera.

This approach would address the limited functionality of disadvantage of tabs, while preserving their space saving advantages.

OAW

OAW