[Guy Incognito]

The more I think about the more I like the 'Favorites' bar approach.

I'd like to see both Favorites and whatever-you-wanna-call-it-tabbed-browsing merged together. The favorites bar would essentially contain your favorites and the tabbed pages. How would this work, you ask?

When the browser launches it would load all your favorites into memory automatically...think of it as loading Chimera and having your favorites already in their tabs. They are your favorites right? So why not load them right away?

The favorites would be marked slightly differently as the tabbed pages that aren't your necessarily your favorites to prevent removing a favorite instead of a tabbed page.

These also update if the webpage has changed (just like they do now if you have it set to check for changes.) So the blue lightning icon would become green for the webpages that have seen changes.

This would be somewhat similar to the Dock idea...your favorite apps stay in the Dock, but other apps that are launched also appear temporarily in the Dock.

[cpac]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:

When the browser launches it would load all your favorites into memory automatically...think of it as loading Chimera and having your favorites already in their tabs. They are your favorites right? So why not load them right away?

'cause that might take forever! (many of us have many many "favorites" pages. - An easy solution to this problem would be to allow you to check off a box in the bookmark's info window (same place you check for changes) that says "load on launch" - the lightning bolt could be yellow outline while it was loading, solid yellow to show it was loaded, red if the page was unreachable, &c.

Definitely a feature I'd like to see.

BUT this only works if you don't make "tabs" on-the-fly. In that case, you'd still need a separate area, like an "open" bar, in which to temporarily store pages...

[cpac]

wonder if the Rickster is merely observing amused, or if he's taking notes...

[dru]

Originally posted by cpac:
Nobody who's a big fan of tabbed browsing willing to share all the pages they open up at one time?

I just don't get it... (2 or 3 sure, but command-` works pretty well to switch between a couple of windows).

Here are a few examples... log-on to the MacNN forums and navigate to OSX, open tabs (or new windows) for the forums I most often read (OSX Software & General). Skim through the topics, right clicking and doing "Open Link In New Tab" for each thread I'm interested in reading. Tab among them. Works with any forum & doesn't clog bookmarks any more than needed.

Set up tabs for sites I visit many times during each day. Bookmark the group of tabs; keep that in a separate window.

If you think about each browser window you've opened as a notebook, this method works fine. It's hardly beyond user comprehension. For example, Lotus has done it since the early 90's in their applications. Excel:mac does it. Tabs are a tool. Use them or don't. Just, for user's sake, developers remember to let the user open bookmarks/personal toolbar items in a new tab.

I initially resisted tab browsing (loving OmniWeb's own in a new window behind feature) until I found an good way to integrate it into my way of working. ATM, I use Mozilla (with pinstripe theme).

The primary irritation with tabbed browsing for this user comes when pages have brain-dead names, like the Raskin page (simply named "Home"--well now, how humane! ).

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by cpac:


'cause that might take forever! (many of us have many many "favorites" pages.

Well...I'd suggest that people that don't want some of these pages to load at launch to simply put them as normal bookmarks and not favorites.

Favorites are really meant as must-check pages when you open your browser...I go down my favorites list everytime I start surfing. Especially the ones marked with green lightnings.



Favorites marked with a heart icon (doesn't need to be that cheezy though.) Normal pages marked with a lightning icon. Spinny-icon indicates that page is loading.

When the browser is first loaded, you'll see the spinny icon go through all your favorites. You'll know when they've loaded.

Priority loading will go to the address you put in the URL bar. So if you type http://www.blah.com, the other pages that are loading will pause so that the browser loads your page.

In normal circumstances, the browser should stay open all the time (this is OS X right?) so this 'loading of favorites at launch' shouldn't happen often and shouldn't be very annoying.

Oh...and the cycling key-combo would go through this bar and could pop up a transparent overlay (ala volume change and eject) with a preview of the page. Kinda like that mock-up I did earlier except, only one page would show at a time on the transparent overlay.

Edit: screw this...I'm talking to brick walls. This would be such a better solution but nobody's interested. **** you all. Why don't you marry those tabs if you love them so much.

[cpac]

Thanks dru: sounds like we've been able to narrow down both what the objections to and advantages of tabs are.

If OW were to implement:

(1) load a folder of bookmarks (i.e. a saved "tab" set)
(2) "open" bar (hmmm, like the sound of that...)

I think we'd have all the advantages of tabs with none of the problems of tabs.

[cpac]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Well...I'd suggest that people that don't want some of these pages to load at launch to simply put them as normal bookmarks and not favorites.

Favorites are really meant as must-check pages when you open your browser...

I disagree.

Almost all my bookmarks are in my favorites bar, and folders/subfolders thereof. I hide my toolbar, and simply use the favorites bar to navigate where I need to.

Having a separate "open" bar allows for the different "notebooks" like dru was talking about. Favorites would stay the same between different OW windows, while the "open" bar could be entirely different.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by cpac:


I disagree.

Almost all my bookmarks are in my favorites bar, and folders/subfolders thereof. I hide my toolbar, and simply use the favorites bar to navigate where I need to.

Yeah, except that I've just explained that loading these pages at startup would be unintrusive. The spinny-icon would show the pages that are loading. These pages would load on low-priority and allow pages you want to load *now* to load *now*.

There could be an option in the prefs so that the browser 'Don't load favorites at launch'...then the user would be making an aware choice that the favorites will require the page to load and will not be cached like the other pages.

And like I said...do you quit your browser often? The only time I quit my browser is when the OmniWeb decides life isn't worth living anymore and decides to crash. If this is fixed...I'm set for life.

[OAW]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:


Something like this?

Exactly! Except the Favorites bar would still exist in between the toolbar and the "tab" bar if the user wished to display it.

OAW

[foamy]

Guy. Personally I think your ideas for tab-like behavior suck sweaty dog nuts just as much as you think the mozilla/chimera implementation does.

Basically all your hard work making those pitiful looking mock-ups could easily be implemented by making the tabs in mozilla/chimera smaller in height, but have a defined minimal size; the text smaller, thus more information, and if you want a bazillion tabs open, they make multiple rows (just like your approach)--this has been discussed in bugzilla and was opted against. You could even put nice little heart icons on the tabs if you so pleased. Kinda like chimera puts the favicons on the tabs.

I think the tab size should be about the size of the tabs used in project builder on the side bar (which basically keeps multiple windows within one window frame, thus allowing you to switch between workspaces (read pages) with a single click). I guess that breaks the sacrosanct HIG as well, but I digress. I bet some smart programmer could even make it so the tabs can be dragged around to reorganize them.

I guess because your implementation uses icons and text without a defined border, and tabs would use an icon and text surrounded by a gooey blue tab (much more aesthetically pleasing IMO, especially if a minimal size is defined and the text is smaller), then your idea is better because the HIG Bible state that "Browsers shall not used tabs!"

If omniweb makes a profound leap in the concept, then so be it, but your incessant whining that, "tabs suck, tabs suck, tabs suck" doesn't make any difference. Many people like tabs in chimera, etc and would be more than happy to have an even better implemenations. Fact is, you can make a difference in Chimera development and you might see the results in the next decade.

[OAW]

Originally posted by cpac:
wonder if the Rickster is merely observing amused, or if he's taking notes...

I was wondering the same thing. 2 pages of good debate and no word from Omni. I figured someone from Omni would have been tempted to drop us a hint by now. Those guys are being very tight lipped lately!

OAW

[OAW]

A few other comments ....

Regarding Guy's idea of a "favorites" bar approach ... I see his points, but I personally don't care for it strictly on aesthetic grounds. It's a little too unstructured and asymmetrical for my tastes.

However, I do like the idea of the "Liteswitch" approach. It is very similar to the "toolbar" approach that I suggested (thanks again Guy for the mockup!), the only difference is that the bar is always visible. Which leads me to another suggestion ....

Someone earlier mentioned that a drawback of the "Liteswitch" approach was that it required a keystroke combination to even see what other pages were available, and then a click or additional keyboard navigation to select the desired page. All this is true, which is why I now suggest that my "toolbar" approach and the "Liteswitch" approach be combined!

If you are a user that would like to see all the available pages, then you could simply select Browser-Browser Toolbars-Show Open Pages Bar which would display a toolbar like the one Guy mocked up for me. This has all the benefits of tab with none of the drawbacks. Everything is visible with one-click access, no additional windows, and enhanced UI control. You'd also have the ability to display icons & text, icons only, or text only (which when you think about it is really similar to Guy's "favorites" bar approach). Ability to right click a thumbnail and bring up a standard OW web page contextual menu. Etc.

Now if you are a user that would rather have the extra screen real estate available, then you could simply select rowser-Browser Toolbars-Hide Open Pages Bar which would turn off the "open pages" toolbar and display the current OW. You could then hit a keyboard combination to display the Open Pages Bar "Liteswitch" style on an as needed basis. Again, no additional windows with enhanced UI control. You'd also have the ability to display icons & text, icons only, or text only here as well.

A combined "toolbar" and "Liteswitch" approach would provide the best of both worlds. It provides all the benefits of tabs, with none of their drawbacks ... and it allows for greater flexibility to accommodate various browsing styles (even those who would rather not use this feature at all and simply open new windows all time).

What do you think?

OAW

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by OAW:
A few other comments ....

Regarding Guy's idea of a "favorites" bar approach ... I see his points, but I personally don't care for it strictly on aesthetic grounds. It's a little too unstructured and asymmetrical for my tastes.

Same here, it just looks ugly, and I don't see it being as fucntional to me, IMHO.

Maybe it's just Guy's bad attitude.

[Adam Betts]

Guy, not everyone think like you. If they like tabbed-browsing, leave them for god's sake. You can turn it off if you want.

Sometime people like to think they're above of all people but in the end, they are the one who are at the bottom. Your idea is good but it won't be good in the long run. Tabbed-browsing is the way to go, IMHO.

[CheesePuff]

Meow.

[JLL]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:


Yes, like the examples I've been giving in the last few posts?

But seriously...anyone who only opens/tabs a few pages can live with having a few windows open and cmd-` through them. It's faster...trust me.

Tabbed browsing is really for the big boys that want all their 10+ pages to load up in 1 second instead of 2 at one-click's reach.

Who on Earth made you dictator of browser usage?

Face it, people work in different ways, and just because you don't like tabbed browsing and prefer window switching doesn't mean that others feel the same way.

Nobody's forcing you to use tabbed browsing, but can I continue to use it? I usually have my hands at the keyboard - not the mouse!

[cpac]

REMINDER: This thread is supposed to be a discussion of how OW ought to implement tabbed browsing. It is not supposed to be a debate about whether people who like tabbed browsing s*ck or whether tabbed browsing itself is stupid. If you want to debate that start another thread.

While I think Guy has had some good contributions he's needlessly made this discussion antagonistic.

Anyway, for those that thought the initial mock-ups were super ugly, here's one that might be better:



The yellow indicates that the page is loaded, Such an option would take up less screen real-estate than tabs, and be more consistent with OW existing UI elements. Command-clicking would simply load the link in a new yellow-bolted page...

Thoughts?

[Rickster]

wonder if the Rickster is merely observing amused, or if he's taking notes...

It's been interesting to see this group go through many of the same thought processes we did a few months ago. There have also been a few things brought up here that we hadn't looked at, and a few things we've been working on that haven't been discussed here yet -- as for which is which, you'll just have to wait until we start showing 5.0 to the public.

[cpac]

Originally posted by Rickster:


It's been interesting to see this group go through many of the same thought processes we did a few months ago. There have also been a few things brought up here that we hadn't looked at, and a few things we've been working on that haven't been discussed here yet -- as for which is which, you'll just have to wait until we start showing 5.0 to the public.

such a tease.

But it's good to both that Omni's got some ideas we don't and that some of our ideas might help shape the eventual Omni product.

[OAW]

Originally posted by cpac:
REMINDER: This thread is supposed to be a discussion of how OW ought to implement tabbed browsing. It is not supposed to be a debate about whether people who like tabbed browsing s*ck or whether tabbed browsing itself is stupid. If you want to debate that start another thread.

As the originator of this thread, I couldn't agree more!

Originally posted by cpac:

Anyway, for those that thought the initial mock-ups were super ugly, here's one that might be better:



The yellow indicates that the page is loaded, Such an option would take up less screen real-estate than tabs, and be more consistent with OW existing UI elements. Command-clicking would simply load the link in a new yellow-bolted page...

Thoughts?

This looks like the "Favorites" bar approach that Guy is advocating. It looks nice in your mock up. I previously criticized this idea as being "unstructured" and "asymmetrical" because of the way it looked when there was more than one row of information. What I didn't realize was that the existing favorites bar in OW wraps just like this! I guess I've never put that many entries up there. Anyway, this approach could work as long as it incorporated the following ....

1. A visual indicator for the currently displayed page.

2. A visual indicator for loading pages.

3. A visual indicator for pages alredy loaded.

4. An easy way to distinguish between an open page entry and a regular bookmark.

Having said all that, I still like my "toolbar/Liteswitch" approach better!

OAW

[OAW]

Originally posted by Rickster:


It's been interesting to see this group go through many of the same thought processes we did a few months ago. There have also been a few things brought up here that we hadn't looked at, and a few things we've been working on that haven't been discussed here yet -- as for which is which, you'll just have to wait until we start showing 5.0 to the public.

When I started this thread I was hoping you guys would eventually show up!

So now that you are here are we hot, cold, warm? Throw us a bone at least!

If nothing else could you let us know whether or not you guys have decided upon an approach? If so, then this thread, while fun, is nothing more than an excercise!

OAW

[swiz]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
The more I think about the more I like the 'Favorites' bar approach.

I'd like to see both Favorites and whatever-you-wanna-call-it-tabbed-browsing merged together. The favorites bar would essentially contain your favorites and the tabbed pages. How would this work, you ask?

When the browser launches it would load all your favorites into memory automatically...think of it as loading Chimera and having your favorites already in their tabs. They are your favorites right? So why not load them right away?

The favorites would be marked slightly differently as the tabbed pages that aren't your necessarily your favorites to prevent removing a favorite instead of a tabbed page.

These also update if the webpage has changed (just like they do now if you have it set to check for changes.) So the blue lightning icon would become green for the webpages that have seen changes.

This would be somewhat similar to the Dock idea...your favorite apps stay in the Dock, but other apps that are launched also appear temporarily in the Dock.

Yeah, this is a great idea Guy, I actually suggested this about two months ago but got the response that it would be a little too "Power-user-ish" and that Chimera is aimed at simplicity... ?

What ever happened to options?

[cpac]

Originally posted by OAW:
Anyway, this approach could work as long as it incorporated the following ....

1. A visual indicator for the currently displayed page.

2. A visual indicator for loading pages.

3. A visual indicator for pages alredy loaded.

4. An easy way to distinguish between an open page entry and a regular bookmark.

Having said all that, I still like my "toolbar/Liteswitch" approach better!

OAW

thanks for the feedback.

1. - this could be just a background highlight of the particular page.

2. - this could be the difference between the solid yellow arrow and a hollow yellow arrow (unless this distinction already has significance in OW) - or it could be a different color, rotating status indicator etc.

3. - that's the point of the yellow color. additionally, the fact that it's not in the "favorites" bar, but in a separate "open page" bar.

4. - again, besides the yellow color, this would be just the fact that the lightning bolt is in the "open page" bar rather than the favorites bar (which some might choose not to show, e.g.)

[Rickster]

Throw us a bone at least!

If nothing else could you let us know whether or not you guys have decided upon an approach? If so, then this thread, while fun, is nothing more than an excercise!

We have mostly figured out our plan for "tabbed" browsing (as well as a few related things). But do feel free to continue with the suggestions.

[tojo]

Originally posted by Rickster:





We have mostly figured out our plan for "tabbed" browsing (as well as a few related things). But do feel free to continue with the suggestions.

hehehehe! comedy.

[sadie]

Will you be using favicons, Rickster?

[DavidHossack]

Here is my suggestion. The colour is the background colour of the page. You can drag to change the order etc.


Funny how you only find a use for your iDisk two days before you use it because it isn't really worth $50.

I do have some webspace with my isp. They just need to fix finder FTP and I would use it instead.

[Guy Incognito]

...

As long as the 'tabbed-browsing' in OW 5.0 doesn't involve tabs, I'm happy.

I'd readily eat a pile of steaming elephant sh!t before using tabs for browsing.

[Sharky K.]

Originally posted by cpac:
Along the lines of the "cached page" pallet, why not just extend OW's already great bookmark control and allow you to set a preference to "load these pages on opening" - they could get a different color lightning zap and things showing they were ready to be displayed at any time, possibly having their own "bar" like favorites do...

I think this is the best until now including a pallet with 3 tabs: cached / updated / dead
so you can see immediately the status of your bookmarks. This pallet even could be in a "status drawer". (same option for bookmark drawer/window)

"Select next updated bookmark button" isn't really great.

[Sven G]

(Sorry for coming late...)

Personally, I think that the Mozilla/Netscape/Chimera tabbed browsing concept is quite good as it is - at least, as a basic option. Anyway, I would like an overall OmniWeb 5 (and Chimera) implementation that - besides providing the "basics" - also doesn't totally rely upon drawers (an option...?), as those are incompatible with full-screen-window browsing (yes, call me a "Windowsian", but I actually like full-screen windows in many circumstances!). Drawers look "cool", but they fail miserably when they don't have the space to expand - paned/framed window sections (� la Internet Explorer and Mozilla "sidebars") are a much better option, IMHO...

P.S.: Even better, the drawer concept should be drastically improved by allowing drawers to open also towards the *inside* of windows (� la Explorer sidebar, for example).

[Guy Incognito]

I've got another idea for the favorites/cached/open pages.

Warning tab-lovers: put your fingers in your ears and sing for a little bit.

Hovering the cursor above the favorites/cached/open pages in the bar should simply display the page in the browser right away. That way you get a full size preview of the page. No clicks involved unless you want to stay on that page. I'd only think about implementing this is the browser can display the pages fast enough (Chimera could probably do it if they tried a different approach than tabs or hacked the current tabs.)

Oh and maybe add a fast crossfade effect going from one page to another.

Edit: I'd actually be a little more forgiving towards Chimera's truncated titles problem if hovering the cursor above the tabs would display the page...that and simply the favicon in the tab would greatly make it easier to find the tabbed page without seeing it's title.

[OAW]

Originally posted by Rickster:

Well I did leave myself wide open for that one!

OAW

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
I've got another idea for the favorites/cached/open pages.

Warning tab-lovers: put your fingers in your ears and sing for a little bit.

Actually Guy, it seems it is you that has any other idea turned off but your own.

Get your fingers ot of YOUR ears.

There are plenty of people who likes tabs.

Listen and you will hear them.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Listen and you will hear them.

No yuo!!!

[Glennfield]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Hovering the cursor above the favorites/cached/open pages in the bar should simply display the page in the browser right away. That way you get a full size preview of the page. No clicks involved unless you want to stay on that page. I'd only think about implementing this is the browser can display the pages fast enough (Chimera could probably do it if they tried a different approach than tabs or hacked the current tabs.)

Ew. Personally I think it's bad GUI design to have anything significantly change on a simple mouseover, and I would consider changing the currently displayed page to be a pretty significant change.

How sensitive would you make such a hover feature? If you make it happen as soon as the mouse enters the area, then you have the problem of the page "flickering" when the user mouses up to the menu bar and passes over the favorites/cached/etc bar en route. If you make it have a delay (like tooltips), though, then the user (or maybe just me ) gets frustrated having to wait for it to respond when he wants it to.

Or am I simply not seeing the big picture here?

[sadie]

DavidHossack came up with:


Here is my suggestion. The colour is the background colour of the page. You can drag to change the order etc.

Okay, that one does look pretty cool. What would it look like when there were too many tabs open? And could it use favicons?

[Sven G]

(Regarding the above picture...) IMO, it would be better if the "sidetabs" were on the inside of the browser window (even as a customisable option), in order to also allow full-screen web browsing without problems.

[Gul Banana]

So far, the mockup that I like best is cpac's.

[curmi]

Ok, the way I see this is as follows:

1) Most web pages are portrait shaped, like a piece of paper. For this reason, it makes sense to have "tabs" at the side, since screens are landcape shape - giving more room for the image.

2) Tabs generally don't scroll, so things bunch up if there are a lot of tabs. Scrolling tabs look strange, as they are an invented control - something most usability people frown upon.

3) OSX has the power to show thumbnails of images. This means that if images are used, you can "see" the page load. Omniweb does this when you minimise a loading page to the dock.

4) Other operating systems don't handle minimise images dynamically updated as well as OSX. In fact, after using OSX you expect to see this sort of behaviour. So, other browsers have gone for using tabs - as that was the easiest. An OSX browser does not have to go that way if something else is better.

Ok, so here is my mockup.



There is also a larger one at

http://homepage.mac.com/curmi/.Pictures/tabbed.jpg

[oVeRmInD911]

That's purrty curmi. I'd go for that anytime.