[digi-j]

BUYER BEWARE!

There is no iBox or CoreBox!

This has all been a scam to generate publicity, and is a classic case of "Bait and Switch"!

The iBox is nothing but a simple drawing to lure people to the site. It never has, and never will, exist. Once you try to learn more, you are directed to a different and inferior product. There is not one single actual photo or tech spec of the iBox, just a crappy concept drawing. In it's place is a link to a cheaply made PC case that can be found for under $30, hacked to hold an old and used Apple mainboard, and they are charging $350 for it! There is no production plan whatsoever to build or ship the iBox, and they say it will take them 2 weeks to build and shipped the hacked PC-mod "CoreCrib". Why? Because they have no money! Most of their website is "under construction" for the past several days EXCEPT FOR THE PART WHERE THEY TAKE YOUR MONEY.

So you give them $350- what next? If you are lucky they haven't moved to Mexico yet, and will then find some used parts on eBay, cut some holes in the PC case, and ship you something you could have done yourself for $100. They say it will take 2 weeks to build and ship the first 100. In that time they could have made $35,000 or more and vanished.

It is a horrible joke. It is bait and switch and nothing more. Had the iBox scam never existed, these poor college bums would have never been able to get the free publicity they are getting. Now thanks to over-eager Mac users looking for a cheap alternative, they are getting huge numbers of hits to their site that sells cheap boxes of used parts- or worse!

DON'T THROW AWAY YOUR MONEY!

[gizzard]

Where is your proof?

Unless you have hard proof to substantiate your claims, I suggest you hold your tongue. You could be sued for libel. And we wouldn't want that now, would we?

[digi-j]

proof? read the post again, and look at www.2khappyware.com yourself. It's a scam.

[Hozie]

You don't know whether it's a scam. Personally, I'd be surprised if it were, because this guy's name has been posted all over the net... But still, caveat emptor, I guess.

[digi-j]

...and you know it's his real name? No.

does this person have a history? No.

Is it possible for a person to have dozens, even hundreds of Apple mainboards? No, because Apple doesn't sell them- not even to resellers. That would mean this guy would have a hundred PowerMacs at his house, but is only selling the mainboard.

Are there any actual photos? No.

Does the website contain info? No. The iBox, now the CoreBox, has absolutely no published info. Only working page is one that accepts your cash.

So far, I have not seen ANY reason to believe this is the real thing, and you people are gullible and naive to think an average Joe can wake up one day and sell discount Macs. He is filling a hole in the market with a fictional product, and A LOT of people are going to get burned.

[Mohammed Al-Sabah]

someone order and see what happens best proof

[Thain Esh Kelch]

Actually specs has been posted several places!

[icruise]

Scam may be slightly too harsh, but I would be very cautious about paying any money to these people. Even if you accept everything they say at face value, it seems somewhat unlikely that their plan will work the way they say it will. And as far as I can tell from a quick look at the site, they don't even have a prototype, much less a finished computer, so you are basically paying to fund their research and start-up costs. If things don't pan out, do you think you'll be getting a refund?

[gizzard]

Originally posted by digi-j:
...and you know it's his real name? No.

Yes, John Fraser. He was interviewed in Wired News.

does this person have a history? No.

Yes. He sold PCs under the 2khappyware name.

Is it possible for a person to have dozens, even hundreds of Apple mainboards? No, because Apple doesn't sell them- not even to resellers. That would mean this guy would have a hundred PowerMacs at his house, but is only selling the mainboard.

Yes. They can be found easily on ebay. He probably obtained his supply from Apple Service Centers who overstocked on the motherboards.

Are there any actual photos? No.

Yes. Check your eyes. They are on the website.

Does the website contain info? No. The iBox, now the CoreBox, has absolutely no published info. Only working page is one that accepts your cash.

Yes. The iBox and CoreBox are two different products. There is a lengthy FAQ answering common questions.

So far, I have not seen ANY reason to believe this is the real thing, and you people are gullible and naive to think an average Joe can wake up one day and sell discount Macs. He is filling a hole in the market with a fictional product, and A LOT of people are going to get burned.

So just because a website is "under contruction" and that you think it is poorly designed, you come to the conclusion that it's a scam? That's completely illogical. How his website look or what you "think" about it is not proof enough that he is a scam artist. Again, I warn you to watch your mouth. If he ends up losing sales because of you, he can sue you for damages.

Dare I say, you have been 0wnz3d!!!1

[icruise]

Originally posted by gizzard:
quote:
Are there any actual photos? No.

Yes. Check your eyes. They are on the website.


quote:
Does the website contain info? No. The iBox, now the CoreBox, has absolutely no published info. Only working page is one that accepts your cash.

Yes. The iBox and CoreBox are two different products. There is a lengthy FAQ answering common questions. [/B]

I see no actual photos of the iBox or Corebox, just a rendering on the main page. There is a picture of the Corecrib (which appears to be a different product). Also, where is this lengthy FAQ? Clicking on the FAQ link on the main page just gives the "under construction" message.

[Macola]

There seems to be some activity on the forums (http://www.2khappyware.com/forum/). I guess we will need to wait another week(?).

[digi-j]

Originally posted by gizzard:
Yes, John Fraser. He was interviewed in Wired News.

MY Name is John Frasier! Prove it's not! In an era where millions of people fall victim to identity theft, and you can buy a new ID on the street... you are a complete idiot.

Yes. He sold PCs under the 2khappyware name.

How Many? Where's your proof? All I see are more and more dead links.

Yes. They can be found easily on ebay. He probably obtained his supply from Apple Service Centers who overstocked on the motherboards.

Apple Service Centers DO NOT SELL OVERSTOCKED MAINBOARDS!!!! You CAN NOT easily find HUNDREDS on eBay!

Yes. Check your eyes. They are on the website.

HAHAHA!!! The CoreBox is a (bad) drawing, and the CoreCrib says "CoreCrib Pictures above are do not include Crib motherboard to protect design until release. " Considering the "CoreCrib" is a mainboard and a case, that means they don't have the mainboard. YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN!!!

Yes. The iBox and CoreBox are two different products. There is a lengthy FAQ answering common questions.

HAHAHA! It's UNDER CONSRTUCTION YOU MORON!

So just because a website is "under contruction" and that you think it is poorly designed, you come to the conclusion that it's a scam?

A Legit company does NOT have every page "under construction" EXCEPT THE ONE THAT TAKES YOUR MONEY!

Dare I say, you have been 0wnz3d!!!1

HAHAHA! Obviously NOT!! You are also a naive and easy to fool consumer who is overly eager to throw money away- or else your are from 2khappyware.com yourself and are worried.

[kupan787]

Jesus! He just redesigned the webpage (not that it is much of an excuse, but bare with him for now...) For the longest time he had up a "real" website (mainly just text, and some renders which were done by someone else!) If you had read anything over at the dealmac forums you would know a bit more about whats going on. You would no he doesn't have real pics, as there is nothign yet (he hasn't gotten anythign molded yet). Also the same reason he isn't taking your money for the ibox yet either...

For the longest time he had up a page explaining EXACTLY what was going into the iBox. He had details of how he was getting his parts, he even gave company info about the molding company he was going to use. All this was also up over at the dealmac forums (search tehre, and I am sure you will find it).

He has his phone number up now (have you tried calling it? I will save you the money, yes it is real, and yes he is there). Have you tired emailing him, or filling out the support fourm? Both work, and he does respond.

The purcahse page is for his old "system" he sold (basicly he put the guts of a G4 into a PC case). There is no purchase page for the ibox yet.

I think digi-j has nothing better to do than cry wolf.

[MacGorilla]

Digi-j is this you?
http://www.2khappyware.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18

[gizzard]

Digi-j,

Thanks for calling me an idiot and a moron. I will feel all the better when you are proven wrong (and when you get your ass sued off). Foolish boy.

[milhouse]

Originally posted by digi-j:
BUYER BEWARE!

There is no iBox or CoreBox!

This has all been a scam to generate publicity, and is a classic case of "Bait and Switch"!

The iBox is nothing but a simple drawing ...

Dude, start using Decaf...seriously...

[digi-j]

when ONE person reports that their "CoreCrib" or "CoreBox" arrives at their door in working order, I will be surprised. When ONE legit magazine receives one and posts a review either online or in print, I will REALLY be surpised. Until then, you are all fools for defending an obvious scam, and I am ashamed that Mac users can be fooled so easily.

[BrettOZ]

Good to see this discussion has heated up and the poor guy is still in concept stage. This kind of talk does not help a small designer/production company or idea get off the ground.

So the production has not started yet - we know that. Lets just wait and see if this product does eventuate, personally I think he may have a hard time legally producing these machines?

[saru boy]

I don't see what the big deal is about the iBox. If these are made from parts that can be found on eBay, then why don't you make it yourself? The only thing I would think would be a problem is the lack of a third party case that would fit a Mac motherboard, although you could probably hack one together for less than what these guys charge you.

[icruise]

Originally posted by digi-j:
when ONE person reports that their "CoreCrib" or "CoreBox" arrives at their door in working order, I will be surprised. When ONE legit magazine receives one and posts a review either online or in print, I will REALLY be surpised. Until then, you are all fools for defending an obvious scam, and I am ashamed that Mac users can be fooled so easily.

There was a post on xlr8yourmac from someone who said they ordered a Corecrib and that they would report back about it, so I guess we will hear soon enough. That doesn't necessarily have any relation to whether the iBox et al will get off the ground, though.

[gizzard]

Inside Mac Games Interviews John Fraser

[digi-j]

Originally posted by gizzard:
Inside Mac Games Interviews John Fraser

it is obviously an interview done via e-mail or other electronic means because there is no interaction or follow-up questions, and the format and "style" of the responses are writen instead of spoken- and the dead giveaway =) face. There is no face to face going on here. I will still continue to warn fellow Mac users of a likely scam.

[Leonard]

Diji-j I think your being a little obnoxious, arrogant and getting a little ahead of things (the old phrase of having the cart before the horse comes up). The iBox project hasn't even gotten off the ground and your claiming it's a scam. Give the guy a break. As far as I'm aware, he hasn't even started selling the iBox. How can it be a scam if he's not selling iBoxes yet. As for his site being under construction, I've seen many a ligitimate business site under construction.

I think a few members have already caught you in a few lies.

I for one hope this guy produces the iBox, if only to shut you up.

Of course I shouldn't have made this post, because you're just trolling for posts like it.

[digi-j]

Originally posted by Leonard:
I think a few members have already caught you in a few lies.

find ONE.

I for one hope this guy produces the iBox, if only to shut you up.

I really hope you're right because that would mean no one is getting ripped off. But I see an obvious scam, and people like you are sheep that believes everything you read instead of doing your own thinking. You haven't for once looked at the many obvious warning signs.

[digi-j]

People are so mad at ME that they believe in the iBox just to spite me. typical childish response when threatened. Why don't you do you own thinking for once? Look at the site, look what's there, look what's missing, and you'll see this is something you SHOULD NOT spend your money on, and DO NOT get your hopes up. We live in a world full of scams and fraud, and you people are some of the most naive I've ever seen.

[Axo1ot1]

Originally posted by digi-j:
People are so mad at ME that they believe in the iBox just to spite me. typical childish response when threatened. Why don't you do you own thinking for once? Look at the site, look what's there, look what's missing, and you'll see this is something you SHOULD NOT spend your money on, and DO NOT get your hopes up. We live in a world full of scams and fraud, and you people are some of the most naive I've ever seen.

Seriously man, what's your angle?

[velocipede]

Originally posted by digi-j:
it is obviously an interview done via e-mail or other electronic means because there is no interaction or follow-up questions, and the format and "style" of the responses are writen instead of spoken- and the dead giveaway =) face. There is no face to face going on here. I will still continue to warn fellow Mac users of a likely scam.

Well, I don't post often here, and never for topics like this, but really, this seems a little out of line. You're mistaking a POTENTIAL scam for a PROBABLE scam simply because, for some reason or another, this guy's endeavor rubs you the wrong the wrong way. (And when I say "potential", it's in the sense of "I could jump walk outside and find half a million dollars in a bucket, potentially.") Really, anything on the Internet can be a scam, and given your reasoning, it's all almost definitely a scam! (Man, I knew those guys at Amazon were just working out of their mom's basement the whole time, ripping off unsuspecting innocents!) Given your inistence on what seems a shaky theory, I have to admit I'd suspect you more of shady goings-on than the iBox guy. He sounds like a guy trying to set up a legitimate business, while, to be honest, you sound like a sabotuer. As the previous poster said, what's your angle?
OK, I doubt I'll post anymore to this topic, and I hope I'm not fueling flames, but had to add my 2.5 cents...

[rambo47]

Oh, man! I smell another goat-fvck ala J.C. Morris comming! I particularly like the part where "the first 200 orders are expected to ship in 2 weeks." Then, catching everyone who ordered completely by surprise, "...due to unvoidable delays...."

BOHICA, baby! Bend Over Here It Comes Again.

[geekwagon]

Originally posted by digi-j:
typical childish response when threatened. Why don't you do you own thinking for once?

I never reply to this kind of post, but I just have to comment on how ironic it is that you are ranting about how everyone doesn't automatically agree with you (while calling them childish..) while telling them to think for themselves.

That said, I wouldn't buy anything like the iBox until they were actually shipping, but that is more because I have no patience for waiting for back-orders.

[Axo1ot1]

It looks like OWC will sell them when they come out. I have no compunctions about ordering through them as I have done thousands of dollars worht of business with them and NEVER EVER had a problem. When reptable dealers start getting on board much cred is given the product. If you are pissing your pants about direct ordering, then cop one through an intermediary.

Diji-j you seem to have way more to hide than Core Computers, what with your total lack of profile information. Some community member you are.

[gizzard]

Originally posted by digi-j:
it is obviously an interview done via e-mail or other electronic means because there is no interaction or follow-up questions, and the format and "style" of the responses are writen instead of spoken- and the dead giveaway =) face. There is no face to face going on here. I will still continue to warn fellow Mac users of a likely scam.

You do realize that the majority of "interviews" that are published on the internet are done through e-mail, right? And you do realize that I live in Los Angeles while John Fraser lives in Minnesota. I am not about to fly to MN just to please you, nor anyone else.

Originally posted by digi-j:
People are so mad at ME that they believe in the iBox just to spite me. typical childish response when threatened.

Childish response? Oh, I can find plenty of those by you. Esepcially in the posts where you call me an idiot and a moron. Completely uncalled for.

Why don't you do you own thinking for once?

I do think for myself, but it doesn't seem like you do. Have you been reading one too many conspiracy theory novels lately?

I'm thinking that I would like to give John Fraser the benefit of the doubt. If he is a scam, there is no doubt the Mac community will crucify him, but let's give him a little chance here.

Look at the site, look what's there, look what's missing, and you'll see this is something you SHOULD NOT spend your money on, and DO NOT get your hopes up.

What about the site? Sure it's not fully functional yet, but is that the only proof you have to offer that John Fraser is running a scam? That is shaky "evidence" at best. You can't prove that he is not an enterprising young man. In the United States, you are innocent till proven guilty. Maybe if this guy had a prior record and you dug it up, people would actually pay attention to you, but as it stands, you just come off as a ranting, raving fool.

We live in a world full of scams and fraud, and you people are some of the most naive I've ever seen.

Indeed we do. Quick! Lock yourself up in a bomb shelter before any body else scams you!

[BuD-TheDude]

Man, I remember just a little bit ago when I went to Apple's store to get a 17" PowerBook. Funny thing is, they were taking money but not shipping for a while. Up to months for some people.

Crying wolf with nothing to offer but delirious, opinionated "facts". I can't help but feel that I am feeding a troll; why do we feel the need to respond to such silly people with silly ideas?

(Seriously, why?)

[clash]

Don't feed the Trolls

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by digi-j:
People are so mad at ME that they believe in the iBox just to spite me. typical childish response when threatened........ We live in a world full of scams and fraud, and you people are some of the most naive I've ever seen.

Actually, I am pretty cynical. Though it's yet to be proven this is a scam I am 100% positive you are an idiot. Not the small kind of idiot that I like to point and laugh at but the kind I like to strike in the forehead with a brick.

I agree, I don't think the iBox will ever see the light of day in terms of production but that's because I think Apple will send this guy to court until his assets are spent in legal fees. So in terms of sending money now it would be pretty foolhardy.

Your spastic protest on the other hand is far more suspicious than this guy. You show up out of nowhere and this is all you have to contribute to the forum? People here are smart enough to spend their money wisely, well everyone but iceaxe.
Just go away.

[TheRoadWarrior]

I think that the whole concept is very flawed. As the author of the article at MacOPZ building you own Mac, I don't see how the concept here is money making in itself, let alone, a good idea. I had considered the idea of commercially selling boxes of this nature many months ago when I wrote that article (since I have been a PC builder for many years and focus mainly on customized PCs like you normally see on the PC hardware enthusist sites). I came across many problems with this endeavor which caused me to not follow that route.

The first and foremost problem here is that legally you cannot install the MacOS on a non-Apple approved computer. Read your EULA next time you install the MacOS. Establishing a commercial enterprise around getting people to illegally install the MacOS on their boxes is akin to Napster's theory that they weren't contributing to music piracy because the actual files didn't reside on Napster's servers. The courts obviously disagreed with that thinking. Obviously, it's a different case if you personally assemble some parts and install it on your own time since Apple won't waste the time going after individuals, but, I'm fairly confident that Apple won't sit around given their history of legal action against people who even possibly infringe on their intellectual property rights. Someone selling non-Apple boxes with the intention of those boxes being meant for installation of the MacOS won't be in business for long. It doesn't matter that the motherboard came from Apple at one point. The fact of the matter is that these machines ARE NOT Apple approved or licensed in any fashion.

The second problem is the cost. While Mac logic boards can be found on ebay, typically, a gigabit logic board costs around $150 by itself. A good quality PC case wholesale costs upwards of $50-$60. The one pictured on that site is a very poor quality case. You would NOT want to buy one of those machines if that is the case it's going to come in. The metal is flimsy, the 400 watt power supply is notorious for failure, and, the front panel plastic is held on by several screws which typically have been torqued too much at the factory in China and cause the threads to break in the plastic connectors holding on the front silver faceplate. So, you are up to at least $200 in cost in terms of a good case and just the motherboard. Then, you've got to tap and drill holes so that the Mac's logic board can be securely mounted. I ran into this issue with my work and since I wasn't reselling my work I used adhesive anchors and nylon wire ties to hold the motherboard in place. Another issue is that the PCI and AGP slot in the Mac's motherboard don't exactly line up with the standard layout in PC cases. Again, more cutting with a Dremel to get things to line up. And, you haven't even worried about the backplate which covers the USB, FW, and other ports. Thus, you need to custom cut a plate to cover these properly so that you don't run afoul of the FCC with interference.

Thirdly, for $349 what do you get at best? A motherboard which may or may not be properly installed, what might be a cheap case, and, nothing else. You'd have to install you own RAM, hard drives, optical drives, video card, processor, etc. By the time you add up the costs it's not worth it. Plus, unless a real Apple power supply is used, the ADC video cards won't work. The only way around this is a risky hack to the standard PC ATX power supply. I for one would not want to spend hundreds of dollars on something which has the potential to be problematic because it didn't use parts that were not designed properly or installed properly. There simply are not enough low cost Mac motherboards around from anyone to make this a viable business venture. From a hobbyist point of view it's a worthwhile project, but, I would not recommend anyone fork over money to someone or some company building something like this because it absolutey will not and cannot meet the same standards to which Mac users are accustomed.

Lastly, there really is nothing new here. You're not getting a brand new Mac. You're not getting a brand new Mac clone. There are no new or unique motherboards being used, no new technology, nothing that didn't come from Apple to begin with. So long as Apple controls the hardware and the software, there will NEVER be an alternative Mac unless Apple signs agreements to allow licensing. No one else is legally able to produce them, let alone, has the massive R&D needed to tape out, prototype, and, produce a motherboard or another new "Mac."

[Axo1ot1]

Originally posted by TheRoadWarrior:
The first and foremost problem here is that legally you cannot install the MacOS on a non-Apple approved computer. Read your EULA next time you install the MacOS. Establishing a commercial enterprise around getting people to illegally install the MacOS on their boxes is akin to Napster's theory that they weren't contributing to music piracy because the actual files didn't reside on Napster's servers. The courts obviously disagreed with that thinking. Obviously, it's a different case if you personally assemble some parts and install it on your own time since Apple won't waste the time going after individuals, but, I'm fairly confident that Apple won't sit around given their history of legal action against people who even possibly infringe on their intellectual property rights. Someone selling non-Apple boxes with the intention of those boxes being meant for installation of the MacOS won't be in business for long. It doesn't matter that the motherboard came from Apple at one point. The fact of the matter is that these machines ARE NOT Apple approved or licensed in any fashion.

Who says people aren't instaling linux, or just Darwin on these machines? That's like M$ going after PC makers that sell machines without software licenses. They claim it's just a way for people to avoid paying licencing fees, but they haven't made any real case against the pc makers who do it becuas so many other OSs are possibilities for people to run.

The second problem is the cost. While Mac logic boards can be found on ebay, typically, a gigabit logic board costs around $150 by itself. A good quality PC case wholesale costs upwards of $50-$60. The one pictured on that site is a very poor quality case. You would NOT want to buy one of those machines if that is the case it's going to come in. The metal is flimsy, the 400 watt power supply is notorious for failure, and, the front panel plastic is held on by several screws which typically have been torqued too much at the factory in China and cause the threads to break in the plastic connectors holding on the front silver faceplate. So, you are up to at least $200 in cost in terms of a good case and just the motherboard. Then, you've got to tap and drill holes so that the Mac's logic board can be securely mounted. I ran into this issue with my work and since I wasn't reselling my work I used adhesive anchors and nylon wire ties to hold the motherboard in place. Another issue is that the PCI and AGP slot in the Mac's motherboard don't exactly line up with the standard layout in PC cases. Again, more cutting with a Dremel to get things to line up. And, you haven't even worried about the backplate which covers the USB, FW, and other ports. Thus, you need to custom cut a plate to cover these properly so that you don't run afoul of the FCC with interference.

The case on the site is for a different product. They are looking to custom-manufacture the case for the iBox. They are two different products, yo

Thirdly, for $349 what do you get at best? A motherboard which may or may not be properly installed, what might be a cheap case, and, nothing else. You'd have to install you own RAM, hard drives, optical drives, video card, processor, etc. By the time you add up the costs it's not worth it. Plus, unless a real Apple power supply is used, the ADC video cards won't work. The only way around this is a risky hack to the standard PC ATX power supply.

They say they are working a way around this with custom parts. Yes this is risky, but that's why you wait for reputable businesses to start reselling them, so you can be sure you can return it if the thing goes bad.

Lastly, there really is nothing new here. You're not getting a brand new Mac. You're not getting a brand new Mac clone. There are no new or unique motherboards being used, no new technology, nothing that didn't come from Apple to begin with.

That's not the point. The point is that you can get one and build it to your spec on the cheap. You don't have to pay Apple's absurd hardware upgrade prices like in the BTO on their website. The idea is that it's a reasonably customizable machine, that is much less expensive than what Apple has to offer.

[gizzard]

Originally posted by TheRoadWarrior:
The first and foremost problem here is that legally you cannot install the MacOS on a non-Apple approved computer. Read your EULA next time you install the MacOS. Establishing a commercial enterprise around getting people to illegally install the MacOS on their boxes is akin to Napster's theory that they weren't contributing to music piracy because the actual files didn't reside on Napster's servers. The courts obviously disagreed with that thinking. Obviously, it's a different case if you personally assemble some parts and install it on your own time since Apple won't waste the time going after individuals, but, I'm fairly confident that Apple won't sit around given their history of legal action against people who even possibly infringe on their intellectual property rights. Someone selling non-Apple boxes with the intention of those boxes being meant for installation of the MacOS won't be in business for long. It doesn't matter that the motherboard came from Apple at one point. The fact of the matter is that these machines ARE NOT Apple approved or licensed in any fashion.

I don't really see the connection between what CoreComputers is doing and Napster. But anyway, I don't have the Mac OS X EULA in front of me, so would you care to quote the portion that would make Mr. Fraser's venture illegal?

The second problem is the cost. While Mac logic boards can be found on ebay, typically, a gigabit logic board costs around $150 by itself. A good quality PC case wholesale costs upwards of $50-$60. The one pictured on that site is a very poor quality case. You would NOT want to buy one of those machines if that is the case it's going to come in. The metal is flimsy, the 400 watt power supply is notorious for failure, and, the front panel plastic is held on by several screws which typically have been torqued too much at the factory in China and cause the threads to break in the plastic connectors holding on the front silver faceplate.

How are you able to tell all this just by looking at a picture on a website? Do you have any such proof to the claims you are making?

So, you are up to at least $200 in cost in terms of a good case and just the motherboard. Then, you've got to tap and drill holes so that the Mac's logic board can be securely mounted. I ran into this issue with my work and since I wasn't reselling my work I used adhesive anchors and nylon wire ties to hold the motherboard in place. Another issue is that the PCI and AGP slot in the Mac's motherboard don't exactly line up with the standard layout in PC cases. Again, more cutting with a Dremel to get things to line up. And, you haven't even worried about the backplate which covers the USB, FW, and other ports. Thus, you need to custom cut a plate to cover these properly so that you don't run afoul of the FCC with interference.

Don't forget the cost of the power supply. And don't forget the cost of all the labor you just mentioned. Sure, anyone can go to ebay and buy the motherboard, case, and power supply. But how many people actually have the technical knowledge to turn it into a neat package? Mr. Fraser may just have done that, but of course, until his product ships, we won't know the quality of it.

Thirdly, for $349 what do you get at best? A motherboard which may or may not be properly installed, what might be a cheap case, and, nothing else. You'd have to install you own RAM, hard drives, optical drives, video card, processor, etc. By the time you add up the costs it's not worth it.

I can understand why you might be concerned about the quality of the product, but who are you to judge? How do you know that the motherboard is not properly installed? How do you know the case is cheap? The whole point of the CoreCrib Kit is to build your own Mac. If you have spare parts lying around that you can use in the kit, it will reduce the total cost significantly.

Plus, unless a real Apple power supply is used, the ADC video cards won't work. The only way around this is a risky hack to the standard PC ATX power supply. I for one would not want to spend hundreds of dollars on something which has the potential to be problematic because it didn't use parts that were not designed properly or installed properly.

How much do ADC displays cost again? From $700 to $2500 right? If you could afford such a display, I guarantee that you can afford a top end Power Mac from Apple. Your point is moot.

There simply are not enough low cost Mac motherboards around from anyone to make this a viable business venture. From a hobbyist point of view it's a worthwhile project, but, I would not recommend anyone fork over money to someone or some company building something like this because it absolutey will not and cannot meet the same standards to which Mac users are accustomed.

What's your point? Now you are just criticizing Mr. Fraser for his effort to start his own business. Again, without having the product in your hands, how can you tell that is not a high quality product?

Lastly, there really is nothing new here. You're not getting a brand new Mac. You're not getting a brand new Mac clone. There are no new or unique motherboards being used, no new technology, nothing that didn't come from Apple to begin with. So long as Apple controls the hardware and the software, there will NEVER be an alternative Mac unless Apple signs agreements to allow licensing. No one else is legally able to produce them, let alone, has the massive R&D needed to tape out, prototype, and, produce a motherboard or another new "Mac."

Again, what's your point? Mr. Fraser has listed the specifications of the machine on his website. The most innovative part of his service is the ability to configure the CoreCrib as you like. He is well aware that he is not offering cutting edge technology, but neither is Apple at this point!

Excuse me while I dismiss another would be doubter.

[TheRoadWarrior]

Originally posted by Axo1ot1:
Who says people aren't instaling linux, or just Darwin on these machines? That's like M$ going after PC makers that sell machines without software licenses. They claim it's just a way for people to avoid paying licencing fees, but they haven't made any real case against the pc makers who do it becuas so many other OSs are possibilities for people to run.

Who in their right mind would pay more money for Apple hardware to run something primarily other than the MacOS? It doesn't matter what other other operating systems might run on it, the fact is, the primary purpose of the hardware is to run the MacOS. If Linux is your bag, then, it makes much more sense to buy a custom PC instead because it will be faster, cheaper, and, brand new.

My opinion is that Apple is most certainly going to shut this project down. It is an attempt to create an unlicensed clone for commercial purposes.

The case on the site is for a different product. They are looking to custom-manufacture the case for the iBox. They are two different products, yo

It's just in a different case. No new hardware. No new logic boards, no new CPUs. None. Nada. Zip. Nothing hardware-wise created by them.

They say they are working a way around this with custom parts. Yes this is risky, but that's why you wait for reputable businesses to start reselling them, so you can be sure you can return it if the thing goes bad.

What they are doing makes as much sense as buying used Dell or Gateway logic boards, putting them in a different case, and, calling it something different by using another name. It's still an infrigement on Apple's IP rights. Why else do you think NONE of the clone makers persued this path instead?

That's not the point. The point is that you can get one and build it to your spec on the cheap. You don't have to pay Apple's absurd hardware upgrade prices like in the BTO on their website. The idea is that it's a reasonably customizable machine, that is much less expensive than what Apple has to offer.

Then buy a used Mac and upgrade it. At least it will function and you won't be paying money for hacked together parts.

How much will that $349 base system cost by the time a person completes it? Are you willing to risk the rest of your hardware using a machine with a power supply that isn't a genuine Apple power supply and is relying on a hack? I wouldn't.

[TheRoadWarrior]

Originally posted by gizzard:
I don't really see the connection between what CoreComputers is doing and Napster. But anyway, I don't have the Mac OS X EULA in front of me, so would you care to quote the portion that would make Mr. Fraser's venture illegal?

From Apple's EULA for all operating systems since MacOS 8:

Permitted Uses and Restrictions. This License allows you to install and use the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled or Apple-licensed computer at a time.

Napster was merely a vehicle for allowing others to download and share music files. The courts held that this was in violation of the law despite the fact that Napster didn't physically host any of the infringing files on their servers.

It is perfectly legal to install the MacOS on any Apple labeled or Apple licensed machine. Taking an Apple motherboard out of an Apple labeled machine and putting into non-Apple labeled machine that will be sold for a profit is a clear violation of Apple's property rights and the MacOS licensing agreement. This machine which will be sold does not meet those imporant criteria and was a major factor in my decision not to face this course of action when I considered it.

How are you able to tell all this just by looking at a picture on a website? Do you have any such proof to the claims you are making?

I have been building custom PCs for years. Here is the same case for sale elsewhere. 400 watt power supply sound familiar? LED case fan? Plastic front? It is the identical case pictured as part of the Crib. Be sure to look at all the photos posted on the link there. You'll see a photo of the back of the case. Notice how the back of the case is flush. Because of this the case has very little strength and structural integrity. Notice how the inside looks and pay close attention to where the floppy goes. Good quality PC cases have metal plates covering the holes from the metal stamping process. The fact that you can see the plastic floppy covers is a testiment to the low quality of this case. Using a case of this nature as an example of a prototype for someone wanting my business gives me great cause for concern for the innards of such a product.

Don't forget the cost of the power supply. And don't forget the cost of all the labor you just mentioned. Sure, anyone can go to ebay and buy the motherboard, case, and power supply. But how many people actually have the technical knowledge to turn it into a neat package? Mr. Fraser may just have done that, but of course, until his product ships, we won't know the quality of it.

Piece the prices together and it won't add up. $150 for a motherboard at least. $37 for a cheap case that isn't even close to the standards Mac users are accustomed. The cost to modify the 400 watt PC power supply to hypothetically provide the needed 28+V trickle so that the Gigabit board will even post properly runs another $10-$20. You're up to $200 already and all you have is a case and motherboard. Look at the gaps and missing parts in the photos on his website. If I was going to commercially produce something I'd make sure that was I was presenting was at least fitting properly. Notice that the prototype doesn't even have an AGP slot in it.

I can understand why you might be concerned about the quality of the product, but who are you to judge?

See photo in link above.

How do you know that the motherboard is not properly installed? How do you know the case is cheap?

See photo in link above.

The whole point of the CoreCrib Kit is to build your own Mac. If you have spare parts lying around that you can use in the kit, it will reduce the total cost significantly.[/b]

Assuming that you have the parts laying around to do this (which I made very clear in the article I posted on this last September).

How much do ADC displays cost again? From $700 to $2500 right? If you could afford such a display, I guarantee that you can afford a top end Power Mac from Apple. Your point is moot.

Apple also produced many CRTs which are still in use that use the ADC. The Studio Displays with CRTs came that way. I for one would not power a CRT through a bus which was not using the proper power supply for it.

Mr. Fraser has listed the specifications of the machine on his website. The most innovative part of his service is the ability to configure the CoreCrib as you like. He is well aware that he is not offering cutting edge technology, but neither is Apple at this point!

Anyone can post specs on a website. Remember the Xtreme? What happened to them?

[gizzard]

Well, ya got me.

The only retort I can come up with is to wait and see. I'm hoping the final product is of a higher quality than you pointed out.

Oh yeah, Xtreme was BS from the start. At least Mr. Fraser isn't making ridiculous claims like they were.

[TheRoadWarrior]

For what it's worth, this picture of my project will show some of the problems one encounters when installing an Apple G4 logic board in any PC case. See all the metal I had to cut away from the back so that the AGP/PCI slots would line up properly with the motherboard? The problem is that the ports on any G4 logic board are too spread out to fit in the standard ATX backpanel area. Thus, one would have to fabricate a sizeable metal plate in order to cover the large gap created if you want to sell a product that won't violate FCC guidelines.

Another major problem that other people have run into since the creation of my article on this is that many of the faster G4 upgrades won't work unless the board is updated with new firmware. The worst thing that can happen is people order these machines, get them, buy their G4 800 upgrade, and, nothing works. No chime, no posting. So, then they will have to buy or obtain a slower G4 to update the firmware first so the faster G4 will operate.

In short, Mr. Frasier will minimally have to flash each and every board to make sure this doesn't happen. Also, using a hacked power supply is a very bad idea as I've pointed out many times.

To further complicate things, the newer Apple logic boards used in the dual drive bay models won't even be possible for a mod since the board is flipped upside down. It's almost as if someone at Apple knew this was going to happen and engineered the new boards to be phycially impossible to transplant to any other case.

Im my opinion it's just as very risky venture as the capital needed to get out say 200 units would have to be somewhere between $20,000 - $35,000 just for the parts. Assuming a small profit on each machine, one is going to have to sell thousands of these to make it worthwhile to recoup time spent on doing it and to put aside cash in the possibility of a legal entanglement with Apple. When I consider that my custom made PCs give me a 30%-50% margin on each machine, and, no legal entanglements with anyone, the decision to not commercially produce these myself wasn't a tough one to make.

I personally wish Mr. Fraiser the best of luck, but, given Apple's attitude towards these kinds of things, I just don't see it happening for long. At the very least, I hope my input would guide him to making a better product if he decides to go forth (and if he actually reads any of this).

[Axo1ot1]

Originally posteb by: Teh R0adZWar1orz!!1!
I have been building custom PCs for years. Here is the same case for sale elsewhere. 400 watt power supply sound familiar? LED case fan? Plastic front? It is the identical case pictured as part of the Crib.

You are talking about a differen't product. This thread is about the iBox, not the corecrib. Yes, the core crib is a mac in a PC case, I don't think anyone is disputing that. The iBox is different. Do your homework d00d.

Also, on a more philosophical note: At what point does a computer stop being made by one company and start being made by another? If I go out and buy a copy of OS X and install it on this iBox, Apple made the mobo and sold it. It's not theirs anymore, but it's still licenced by them to run Mac OS, isn't it? If I take all the gear out of my MDD and put it in a PC case do I forfeit my right to have Mac OS installed on it? If I fry my mobo and buy a replacement on eBay, does the eula bar me from continuing to run Mac OS on it? What this guy is doing is selling mobos and boxes. No harm no foul. Apple already made money off of the mobos, and he has every right to re-sell them. Who is Apple to say what kind of box it goes into?

[kupan787]

Check out this link.

http://www.2khappyware.com/ibox/

It is still to the old site, and the old info about the iBox.

And for those saying he was taking money for the iBox (this quote is from his site, emphisis mine)

I will not go as far as to ask for donations (though people are asking)

So he is not collecting money now. Once these start selling at OWC, then money will be collected. I seriously doubt that OWC would get involved unless they could secure a number of these boxes first. So if this project does get going (and the only thing I think is stoppign them is Apple Legal), then it will be very real, and safe.

[Leonard]

Thanks kupan787, I was trying to find that.

[TheRoadWarrior]

Originally posted by Axo1ot1:
You are talking about a differen't product. This thread is about the iBox, not the corecrib. Yes, the core crib is a mac in a PC case, I don't think anyone is disputing that. The iBox is different. Do your homework d00d.

The ibox is still no different. He's using Apple's technology in it, not his. Nothing other than slapping old obsolete used parts in a new case. I'm lost as to where the innovation is taking place.

Also, on a more philosophical note: At what point does a computer stop being made by one company and start being made by another? If I go out and buy a copy of OS X and install it on this iBox, Apple made the mobo and sold it. It's not theirs anymore, but it's still licenced by them to run Mac OS, isn't it?

It is then no longer an Apple LABELED and/or LICENSED computer and according to Apple's restrictions you are no longer licensed to use their software.

If I take all the gear out of my MDD and put it in a PC case do I forfeit my right to have Mac OS installed on it?

Technically yes. However, on an individual basis Apple isn't going to know about it if you did that (nor would they care if you personally took your Mac and put it into another case). Running a commercial enterprise and turning a profit by allowing people to violate Apple's intellectual property rights is a different story and is likely to bring trouble.

If I fry my mobo and buy a replacement on eBay, does the eula bar me from continuing to run Mac OS on it? What this guy is doing is selling mobos and boxes. No harm no foul. Apple already made money off of the mobos, and he has every right to re-sell them. Who is Apple to say what kind of box it goes into?

Because quite simply Apple is the intellectual property owner of that motherboard and the software that runs on it. They can tell you what you can and cannot do with it, and, they have $4 billion and a team of lawyers to make sure that you don't turn a profit illegally off their IP.

Why do you think the PC industry is so widespread and pervasive? Because nobody controls the actual design of the PC. You can build it any way you want, in any case, and, run any operating system aside from MacOS on it. You cannot, however, take Dell's motherboard, put it in another case, and, call it a Dell clone. Same thing with Apple. I guarantee you Apple will have the final say here, and, frankly, I hope Mr. Frasier has alot of money for the potential legal problems he's about to encounter with this.

[TheRoadWarrior]

Originally posted by kupan787:
Check out this link.

http://www.2khappyware.com/ibox/

It is still to the old site, and the old info about the iBox.

And for those saying he was taking money for the iBox (this quote is from his site, emphisis mine)



So he is not collecting money now. Once these start selling at OWC, then money will be collected. I seriously doubt that OWC would get involved unless they could secure a number of these boxes first. So if this project does get going (and the only thing I think is stoppign them is Apple Legal), then it will be very real, and safe.

Isn't OWC the one who got into trouble for producing the enabler so that their external DVD drives would work with (and thus infringe on) Apple's own software? Interesting how they too would be behind the attempt to commercially produce Mac clones here.

[kupan787]

Originally posted by TheRoadWarrior:
Isn't OWC the one who got into trouble for producing the enabler so that their external DVD drives would work with (and thus infringe on) Apple's own software? Interesting how they too would be behind the attempt to commercially produce Mac clones here.

This is NOT a mac clone. It is basicly a proof of concept to Apple showing that they should be able to produce a machine in the $500 range.

The iBox project started as a proof that apple could build such a small low cost system for beginners and still make profit by selling a system under the $999.99 price the emac is limited to now.

It got interesting when many pro users like the system for it's capability of upgrades. The idea of the iBox Stage 2 was born on March 28th 2003. Give pro users or expert users a base model macintosh. Let them add what they want when they want.

No where does it state that this is a new or inovative product. It is a budget/upgrade mac. Plain and simple. If you can't get that, it is not for you. Don't go slamming what you don't understand, it only makes you look bad.

You also migt want to check out http://www.2khappyware.com/ibox/ibox2.html as that is talkign about his inital plans for the iBox, and gives a bit more background.

[Axo1ot1]

It is then no longer an Apple LABELED and/or LICENSED computer and according to Apple's restrictions you are no longer licensed to use their software.

I'm intrigued. Where are these restrictions? I want to take a look.

[msuper69]

"Airport antenna: Does the airport cards inside macs use some sort of standard antenna plug and wiring? Where can I find some? "

He's going to build and sell a computer and can't figure this out for himself?

[TheRoadWarrior]

Originally posted by kupan787:
This is NOT a mac clone. It is basicly a proof of concept to Apple showing that they should be able to produce a machine in the $500 range.

Runs MacOS natively? Check. Not produced or sold by Apple? Check. Therefore, it's a Mac clone.

Apple is well aware I'm sure of the possibility of making a cheap Mac, but, why should they? If there was really competition to the Mac, then, Apple would be forced to do so as they were forced to compete during the clone era. Someone putting used Mac motherboards in a PC box isn't going to cause Apple's bean counters to suddenly have an epiphony and say "Hey, let's make a $599 Mac."

Apple can't really afford to do that. Look at Apple's revenue versus the numbers of machines sold. The profit margin is amazing because they have a captive audience. And, trust me, Apple will do whatever it takes to maintain that good margin.

If Apple wanted to go after the sub-$1000 market, they would. Obviously the bean counters have not proven it to be profitable enough to put into practice.