[fldsfslmn]

someone mentioned to me a "150 day revision schedule" that apple tends to stick to. if that's the case, then apple would be updating the 12" in early may, right? if they do, how long would it typically take until the new revisions hit stores/become available?

if they're available shortly i will probably wait. what are they likely to fix/add in the new revision? the heat issue seems to be a top contender, but i'm not convinced it would be a huge problem for me ...

[eevyl]

Apple usually updates the hardware every 6 months or so.

Usually... for example the new PowerBooks came early.

No one knows for sure, if you can live without a new PowerBook and want to see what improvements the revision will have, just wait. But if you need the machine right now, you won't be disappointed.

BTW, the heat issue has been covered in the Mac OS X 10.2.5 update, and it depends heavily on what you use your laptop for and how.

[fldsfslmn]

so perhaps early june for an update? that's a loooooong wait. what type of upgrades performance-wise do you think we'll see? maybe a 1gHz processor?

[mcs37]

Originally posted by fldsfslmn:
so perhaps early june for an update? that's a loooooong wait. what type of upgrades performance-wise do you think we'll see? maybe a 1gHz processor?

I am hoping for 1 GHz with 1 MB L3 cache, if they found a way to keep it cool. My guess is they didn't put 1 GHz + L3 into the 12" Rev A because it was too hot, and 867 was the only one available that kept the heat down. But Apple is full of innovators, so perhaps they came up with a colorful solution.

I am in the same boat as you. I want the 12" PB but I want some of the issues with it fixed, and I also refuse to buy a new computer without a 1 GHz or better processor. I can hold off buying until August, so I'm really hoping they'll have a Rev B by then with a GHz processor. Plus it'll have Panther preinstalled by then.

What else could they fix on the 12" or add? Any chance for keyboard lighting? Perhaps... my best bet is on the GHz G4 + 1 MB L3 cache and then lots of little hardware bug fixes, like the sleep problem I've heard of on the machines and the rumored hinge problem.

[eevyl]

You can expect minor speed bumps, maybe 256 MB of RAM soldered instead of only 128 MB, maybe USB 2, and of course Mac OS X 10.3 Panther preinstalled

Being a new product, the next revision will be for sure a minor bump. Expect no killer new features.

I could be wrong of course...

[Luca Rescigno]

I think it'll get a 1 GHz G4, a 60 GB standard hard drive, and a Radeon 9000 or GeForce 440 graphics card. An 80 GB hard drive will be a $75 option, and the superdrive will still be $200 extra but it'll burn CDs faster.

Those are my predictions... nothing big or spectacular. No 2x superdrive yet, that won't be until at least one revision from now. It'll still have 128 MB of logic board RAM. Eventually, once their high end machines get 1 GB of RAM, their middle-of-the-road machines will get 512 MB, and it'll ship with 256+256. Meanwhile, the iBooks will get 256+0. They've already brought the low end iMac from 128 MB to 256 MB, so I expect they'll follow suit with the other machines as well. But as usual, Apple will be quite slow about it.

[AssassyN]

I'd predict, simply by following old paths, that by September or a surrounding month the 12" PB will be updated and will possible include:

1 Ghz G4 Processor
L3 cache
Updated Graphics Chip
Larger RAM expansion possibilities

[djjava]

how many people out there are holding out for Revision B??

[Shaddim]

My take...

1GHz G4 (though I won't be too surprised if it stays at 867)
no L3 (still too hot for it)
nVidia G4 440
60GB HD
256MB on board

Since the new 1GB SODIMMs work on the current 12" PB (they're just very pricey right now), they'll keep memory expansion the way it is for now. Also, IMO, the present AlBooks have USB 2.0 capablities, they just simply haven't been activated in firmware (possibly due to the bugs that have been found in the newer versions of Jaguar. Hmmm...).

[inemy]

I have my Purchase Order in hand. I want to order it today but I would hate to see a 1ghz revision within a month or so... I am not sure what I want to do.

[fisherKing]

Originally posted by djjava:
how many people out there are holding out for Revision B??

i am...

holding on to my pismo for now. want the 12", but after several visits to the soho apple store, feel that, especially being left-handed, the heat to the left of the trackpad IS a major issue.

if "B" fixes that, i am definitely getting one.
otherwise, i may just go for an iBook...

[fldsfslmn]

i *might* hold out for one. i guess it just depends how i'm feeling the next time i'm in the computer shop ;-)

i'm liable to think that the 12" will remain consistently a bit underpowered compared to the 15" and 17" models. it's a wise decision on apple's part, as it creates a more full range of products.

i'd say that L3 cache would be nice, but apple needs to create a more "reasons" for people to keep shopping up the ladder and buy the 15" or 17". those who need that power.

[Shaddim]

fldsfslmn, my sentiments exactly. They'll "always" have the 12" below the 15s and 17s in relation to CPU speed. Can't have the little guy out run or be equal to the "big boys". It makes good business sense... no matter how much we gripe about it.

[fisherKing]

hmmmm....
why cripple any of the screen sizes?
apple would do well to offer pro laptops at all three screen sizes.

why not set prices by options (ie screen size, harddrive size, superdrive etc) but give users the best performance possibilities?

i still am waiting for a true pro subnotebook from apple.

while i find my roommate's 12" sony vaio droolworthy, still prefer the mac os.

c'mon apple! give us choices!!

[mcs37]

Originally posted by djjava:
how many people out there are holding out for Revision B??

Me me me! I don't need a laptop right now since I'm at IBM (on a blazing 450 MHz ThinkPad), but I'll definitely need it when I return to Cornell in September!

Apple should definitely make the Rev B 12" PB with 1 GHz and 1 MB L3 once they find a way to keep the heat down. More RAM would be great. USB 2.0 support through Panther would be fantastic also. Keyboard lighting would be awesome as well, and perhaps AE built-in rather than AE-ready.

The great thing about the 12" is its ultraportability, great keyboard, and power. It doesn't make any sense to strip down the 12" to satisfy the 15" and 17" because those are different markets. The 12" is for the traveling person/student who needs power but a small footprint. The 15" is your standard laptop for someone who travels somewhat but wants a good size screen. The 17" is a desktop replacement; something that people have always wanted in laptops (a huge screen and lots of power) but never got.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by djjava:
how many people out there are holding out for Revision B??

Me... Unless the 15" Al is very, very attractive... and hits the daylight before the Rev B.

[Luca Rescigno]

Originally posted by fisherKing:
hmmmm....
why cripple any of the screen sizes?
apple would do well to offer pro laptops at all three screen sizes.

why not set prices by options (ie screen size, harddrive size, superdrive etc) but give users the best performance possibilities?

i still am waiting for a true pro subnotebook from apple.

while i find my roommate's 12" sony vaio droolworthy, still prefer the mac os.

c'mon apple! give us choices!!

It seems to make sense... but at the same time, they tried it with the Wallstreet series and it got way too complicated. You had the choice of 12.1" passive matrix, 13.3" active matrix, or 14.1" active matrix. Hard drives were 2, 4, 6, 8, or 10 GB. DVD-ROM with a decoder card was an option. 233, 250 and 300 MHz versions were available. RAM ranged from 32 MB to 192 MB. In short, EVERYTHING was customizeable. But I suppose it just got too complicated so they just went with two regular models in the next update.

[escher]

Originally posted by djjava:
how many people out there are holding out for Revision B??

I know I am. The sooner it comes out, the better. But I'm willing to (and can) wait until late this year.

Like mcs37, I refuse to buy a new laptop with a sub-Ghz processor. My rule of thumb is to (at least) double the clock speed and move on to the next processor generation. I currenctly have an iBook G3/500, so nothing short of a PowerBook G4/1Ghz will do for me.

I'm also waiting for 1GB max RAM, to be achieved without the use of a prohibitively expensive 1GB RAM chip (i.e. 2 x 512GB RAM). I also really want to see DVI-out in the 12-inch. Even though I want a small screen for portability on the road, I want to get a 20" ACD for home. And no, I'm not buying a $300 Gefen VGA-to-ADC conversion box. I'm ok with the current (small) cache on the 12-inch, if it saves power and heat.

I'd happily pay more than the current $1800 price for the three features above (1Ghz proc, 1GB RAM, and DVI-out).

Escher

[fisherKing]

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
It seems to make sense... but at the same time, they tried it with the Wallstreet series and it got way too complicated. You had the choice of 12.1" passive matrix, 13.3" active matrix, or 14.1" active matrix. Hard drives were 2, 4, 6, 8, or 10 GB. DVD-ROM with a decoder card was an option. 233, 250 and 300 MHz versions were available. RAM ranged from 32 MB to 192 MB. In short, EVERYTHING was customizeable. But I suppose it just got too complicated so they just went with two regular models in the next update.

okay, but...why not assume the pro user CAN figure out his/her needs? we're not talking 3 kinds of screens (ie active vs passive matrix), simply the usual choices in optical drive, hard drive, etc.

i say give the consumer options, and apple can have my $ for the things i want!

[kagebird]

i'm waiting for a 12 inch rev.b or bust. . .

[escher]

Well, today MacOSRumors is predicting 1Ghz 12-inch PowerBooks for late May.

MOSR on April 29, 2003:
15.4-inch Aluminum Powerbooks, updates to the 17- and 12-inch Powerbooks (including a 1.25GHz processor standard in the 17-inch model, 1.25 and 1GHz processors in the 15-inch, and a 1GHz G4 in the 12-inch), and Mac OS X 10.2.6. Both are due near the end of May.

OTOH, O'Grady's PowerPage is predicting a 12-inch 1Ghz speedbump for August 11.

Wonder who is closer to the truth. My money is on the PowerPage.

Escher

[Luca Rescigno]

Originally posted by fisherKing:
i am...

holding on to my pismo for now. want the 12", but after several visits to the soho apple store, feel that, especially being left-handed, the heat to the left of the trackpad IS a major issue.

if "B" fixes that, i am definitely getting one.
otherwise, i may just go for an iBook...

I have an iBook and the heat to the left of the trackpad affects mine as well. That's just where the hard drive is. It can sometimes get really bad if the room you're in is poorly ventilated, but as long as you wash your hands somewhat often and keep a window open, it should be fine. I don't know how the iBook's heat compares to the PowerBook's heat, all I know is that the iBook isn't immune to this problem.

[cobra7869]

Originally posted by fisherKing:
i am...

holding on to my pismo for now. want the 12", but after several visits to the soho apple store, feel that, especially being left-handed, the heat to the left of the trackpad IS a major issue.

if "B" fixes that, i am definitely getting one.
otherwise, i may just go for an iBook...

I was in the same predicament. Depends on how long you are on your computer. If you put it to sleep when you are not using it, either through energy settings or by shutting the lid, you are ok. I'm not a huge computer person, but I spend a good amount of time on my 12" PB. I was gonna get the iBook, but I wanted a little more speed. It was worth it.

[xyber233]

Originally posted by djjava:
how many people out there are holding out for Revision B??

I am. I'll be needing a laptop for college so I might as well wait for the new one since it will have to last a while.

[urrl5201]

1.25 Ghz versions are comming at the end of May for 12", 15" and 17", so says

http://www.macosrumors.com/

oops someone beat me to the post. Sorry.

[dettociao]

Originally posted by inemy:
I have my Purchase Order in hand. I want to order it today but I would hate to see a 1ghz revision within a month or so... I am not sure what I want to do.

There will NOT be a 1ghz revision. Seriously. Definetly not.

[DVD Plaza]

Originally posted by mcs37:
It doesn't make any sense to strip down the 12" to satisfy the 15" and 17" because those are different markets.

Why do people look at it this way? It's the other way round - they ADDED keyboard backlighting to the high-end 17" as an added feature, not REMOVED it from the lower-end 12".

Are leather seats ADDED to higher-end cars, or REMOVED from lower-end cars?

Value-added features are just that - they are ADDED to products, not removed from products.

[escher]

Originally posted by dettociao:
There will NOT be a 1ghz revision. Seriously. Definetly not.

dettociao: Of course there will be! You're simply in denial because you just spent $2000+ on a Rev.A 12-inch with SuperDrive and don't want it to be outdated.

Or are you saying that there will not be a revision with a 1Ghz processor, but instead a higher or lower clockspeed, e.g. 933Mhz or 1.13 Ghz?

Escher

[Shaddim]

DVD Plaza,

Here here, good post! I know that I got my Powerbook because it had a G4, aluminum case, great keyboard, and ultra-portability (the SD was a nice extra ). But I don't feel cheated because it doesn't have a 1GHz G4, a back-lit keyboard, DVI-out, or a FW 800 port. I got it for less than $2000! That's $800 less than the 15" TiBook 1GHz and $1300 less than the 17. For the price difference I bought a kick-ass 18" LCD display, 512MB memory upgrade, great speakers, lots of USB and Firewire goodies, an AE card, and a 120GB HD upgrade (I have an 80GB internal now and an 80GB ultra-portable FW drive).

This setup is awesome. I can't tell you how happy I am!

[fisherKing]

i use my powerbook all day, literally (plus i just broke up with my girlfriend... ...more time for work!

the 12" powerbook gets significantly hotter than the ibook, at least in my informal "tests" (numerous visits to the apple store)

i want a small laptop i CAN run all day.

and i want pro features, the ones a larger screen offers (as apple sees fit to design the world... )

[ae86_16v]

Originally posted by escher:


My rule of thumb is to (at least) double the clock speed and move on to the next processor generation. I currenctly have an iBook G3/500, so nothing short of a PowerBook G4/1Ghz will do for me.
Escher

Well in that case, you'll be upgrading every 18 months

[escher]

Originally posted by ae86_16v:
Well in that case, you'll be upgrading every 18 months

LOL. So much for the accuracy of Moore's Law. I fear it'll be more like 25 to 28 months before I can upgrade. But that's ok with my wallet.

Actually, if the current Rev.A 12-inch PowerBook had DVI-out, I think I would have broken my rule and fallen for it (along with a 20" ACD). I'm clamoring for a Ghz processor and more RAM, but could probably live with 867Mhz and 640MB.

Escher

[ae86_16v]

Escher---> Yeah likewise, I only wish that my wallet could keep up w/ Moore.

But you know what though, I am pretty sure I'll be getting the next 15s that comes out. Or depending on how much more the revision 17 has.

MOSR said in about 3 weeks time . Let's hope they are right for once.

[mcs37]

Originally posted by DVD Plaza:
Value-added features are just that - they are ADDED to products, not removed from products.

You're not looking at it the right way. Apple is supporting their huge laptop industry, which is a good 44% or so of their revenue stream. They want to offer the best products to people with different interests. As I said before, the 12" is for the mobile professional, the 15" is your standard laptop size, and the 17" is your desktop replacement. Apple would prefer it if all of them were the same specs, I bet, but issues like heat have made it difficult for them to squeeze the 1 GHz + 1 MB L3 into a 12" PB alu frame.

They don't want to offer the 12" as some consolation prize: you can't afford the 17", so here's the 12". It's all about markets. A typical college student who's on the move all day isn't going to want to lug around a 17" PB, but he's still going to want as much horsepower as it has in his 12" model.

[fisherKing]

just seems that...screen size shouldn't determine the pro quality of a computer that by definition is portable...a laptop.

i want speed, pro features, nothing less. and i want it in a small package.

i'd like to see choices per screen size, ie speed, hard drive, optical drive...even backlit keyboard PER screen size...

c'mon apple!!

[megasad]

Earlier today it struck me that, since quitting university and procuring a full time job, I could actually buy a 12" PowerBook within but two months of deciding to do so. However, because my 600MHz iBook is still working nicely, I am probably going to wait until September 2004, when I go back to university, which will be revision D of said PowerBook.

I'm hoping for, at the very minimum:

- G4 1.5GHz+ / IBM PPC970
- 512K+ Level 2 Cache
- 1MB+ Level 3 Cache
- 266MHz+ System Bus
- 1GB RAM soldered, making a maximum of 2GB RAM
- 100GB+ Hard Drive, at least 5400rpm, preferably 7200rpm
- USB2 and FireWire 800
- 128MB graphics card (whatever's appropriate at the time)
- A powered audio line-in port (can use a microphone that isn't powered)
- An american style keyboard rather than the poor UK excuse for one

Any of those seem too far off? I don't know; haven't actually bothered to research, just made that up whilst doing nothing at my new job.

But, when the specs of the 12" PowerBook match those that I have outlined above, I shall buy one as soon as they hit the stores.

Until then, a 15GB iPod is looking mighty tempting...

[fisherKing]

Originally posted by megasad:
Earlier today it struck me that, since quitting university and procuring a full time job, I could actually buy a 12" PowerBook within but two months of deciding to do so. However, because my 600MHz iBook is still working nicely, I am probably going to wait until September 2004, when I go back to university, which will be revision D of said PowerBook.

I'm hoping for, at the very minimum:

- G4 1.5GHz+ / IBM PPC970
- 512K+ Level 2 Cache
- 1MB+ Level 3 Cache
- 266MHz+ System Bus
- 1GB RAM soldered, making a maximum of 2GB RAM
- 100GB+ Hard Drive, at least 5400rpm, preferably 7200rpm
- USB2 and FireWire 800
- 128MB graphics card (whatever's appropriate at the time)
- A powered audio line-in port (can use a microphone that isn't powered)
- An american style keyboard rather than the poor UK excuse for one

Any of those seem too far off? I don't know; haven't actually bothered to research, just made that up whilst doing nothing at my new job.

But, when the specs of the 12" PowerBook match those that I have outlined above, I shall buy one as soon as they hit the stores.

Until then, a 15GB iPod is looking mighty tempting...

lol...september...2004? & u have the specs mapped out as well?
who knows, by then laptops will be obsolete & paper&pencil will make a comeback...

[megasad]

Originally posted by fisherKing:
lol...september...2004? & u have the specs mapped out as well?
who knows, by then laptops will be obsolete & paper&pencil will make a comeback...

Yeah... A little far-sighted, I know. It was originally going to be September this year (or whenever rev B comes along), but I figured I might as well leave it until I actually go back to university.

And the reason I had all the specs to hand? A few weeks ago I went to MicroAnvika and picked up some of those leaflets Apple prints about their models and all the specs were listed in the back. Problem was, they all struck me as rather mediocre, hence my rather detailed wish-list.

Roll on September 2004!

[fisherKing]

personally, i'd be happy if the present 12" met 2003 laptop standards...

my prediction for sept 2004:

G4 1.2GHz
- 256K+ Level 2 Cache
- 32k+ Level 3 Cache
- 100MHz+ System Bus
- 512kB RAM soldered, making a maximum of 1G RAM
- 80GB+ Hard Drive, "blazing-fast" 4200rpm
- USB2 and FireWire 800
- 64MB graphics card
- backlit keyboard
- enough heat for toast, but not full cooking

[smijolovic]

Please Apple....if you are listening!

All I need is the L3 cache. I don't care about everyone that says it doesn't make a difference....they don't do anything important then. The cache is what separates the machine from all the others, and at the 12" footprint, would make it one of the most attractive machines available in any platform at that size. There wouldn't be a machine in the PC world that would compare, due to the size and the high cache.

It would be great to see these at my company. We procure laptops for our employees, and having something as powerful as the 12" w/1MB L3 cache that would integrate flawlessly with my Unix infrastructure would be a blessing.....and would finally give me the ammo I need to get rid of all the PC laptops!

[clf8]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
fldsfslmn, my sentiments exactly. They'll "always" have the 12" below the 15s and 17s in relation to CPU speed. Can't have the little guy out run or be equal to the "big boys". It makes good business sense... no matter how much we gripe about it.

I'm gonna disagree, but it may just be a pipe dream. My initial thoughts on the 12" with slower proc speed, less soldered ram, and no lvl3 cache was that it was to not kill 15" sales. Whenever the next Pbook rev is, they'll updated all three I think. Hopefully, that means the Mobility 9600 all around, and low end speeds of GHz (on the 12" and 15"), with 1.25 on the 15" and 17". Whether or not there's 2 models of the 12" has yet to be seen.

Realistically, they prolly won't update the video , but I truly hope to see more ram and cache on par with the 15".

[Crusoe]

Waiting for a new 12"? . .. well perhaps

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=160420

Updating all 3 in Sept with Panther seems to be most likely at this point. Though an interim AL15" would suit me well.

[The Ginger Rat]

I am terribly torn as I would very much like a 12" now, but would like some issues addressed. Only problem, I don't want so much featuritis so that the price creeps up. I would like the cache and higher RAM max. The lit keyboard feature is so cool, but not worth it to me at a cost.

[Simon]

Darn, all PowerBooks should be as powerful as possible. And by possible, I'm talking about heat/battery not any marketing bull or theoretical customer crap.

Saying the different PowerBook models would steal each other's sales because of fast CPUs is bullshit. The size of the case and the screen size matter, that's what should make people decide.

Normal notebook -> 15".
Sub-notebook -> 12".
Bad-a$$ desktop replacement -> 17".

All should have max-CPU, L3 (if heat/battery allows), DVI out, 512MB soldered, big HDs optional.

People who think a 12" should be CPU-crippled because it's got a small screen making it an iBook don't understand squat about portable computing. There are enough customers that need lots of power, but want a small screen because it makes the thing more portable.

That said, I'm waiting for the rev b 12". I would like 1GHz, L3 and DVI-out. I don't want PCMCIA slots (as some people ask for; why? gosh, why make it fatter???). However, being realistic, I doubt Apple will give us L3 or DVI-out (well, let's see, if we get a new GPU (Radeon 9000 Mob please!) requiring a new MoBo why couldn't we also get another port?). The 1GHz however seems realistic.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by Simon:
There are enough customers that need lots of power, but want a small screen because it makes the thing more portable.

Exactly. I bought the 12" as a second computer but am finding myself using it almost exclusively.

[fisherKing]

Amen! i want a "sub-notebook" to carry around, then run it with an external monitor at my desk...but i want a pro machine, not a comprimised one.

here's hoping...

[RealMadrid]

I would take one immediately if they get:

- 1GHz+
- DVI out.

Perhaps I go for the revision of the 15' if it comes out earlier.

Regards

[dennis88]

Is it safe to buy a 12" with superdrive and 640mb ram now?
Is the 420go THAT bad?

I want to play warcraft 3 at high settings, with good fps.
Can I do that with the 12"?

I was looking at it in the shop, and it was soo cool!
It wasn't hot either.

Thanks!

[xyber233]

I hope it comes out before september seeing as I will need a laptop. I agree with Simon completely. They should not be crippling computers. I want a powerful and compact computer. The 12" Powerbook is the right size but not powerful enough.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by dennis88:
Is it safe to buy a 12" with superdrive and 640mb ram now?
Is the 420go THAT bad?

I can't comment on WC3, but this thing is well fast enough for anything *I'm* doing.

The interface is noticeably *snappier* than on my friend's 667 tiBook (last version DVI).

I love this little box.

-s*