[Logic]

Europe warned on anti-Semitism

Discuss.

[thunderous_funker]

I'm not sure that I agree that anti-semitism is a "particularly odious form of racism". I mean, what makes it more odious than other forms of racism? Or do they mean that historically, anti-semites have taken their racism to "particularly odious" extremes?

I can support the idea that attacks agains jews or synagouges should be considered more than mere vandalism or hooliganism in the eyes of the law, but only if it includes other acts of racism against other minorities. Why should acts against one minority be a special kind of hate crime?

Then, of course, there is the issues surrounding the term itself. Not all Jews are semetic and not all Semites are Jews.

[eklipse]

From the article:

"Words do not suffice to turn the tide of anti-Semitism that is once again growing in Europe and other parts of the world"

What exactly do they propose should be done?

Perhaps a better question would be: why has there been a rise in anti-semitism in Europe?

[Developer]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Why has there been a rise in anti-semitism in Europe?

I didn't notice that.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by eklipse:
From the article:


What exactly do they propose should be done?

Perhaps a better question would be: why has there been a rise in anti-semitism in Europe?

Better question: has there been a rise in anti-semitism in Europe?

Or has, perhaps, the coverage of such events changed?

I seem to recall there at one point having been a huge wave of anti-semitic violence here in Germany.

In fact, there had been one prominent case, and suddenly the public eye was on the subject, and news stations/papers responded with increased coverage.

-s*

[Logic]

t_f gets a

Originally posted by eklipse:
Perhaps a better question would be: why has there been a rise in anti-semitism in Europe?

I haven't noticed any, but if it is true I would guess that some idiots are confusing Israel with Jews. I have noticed an increase in negative views on Israel the last years and that could be the cause. People are getting fed up by how Israel is treating the Palestinians and that can result in some juveniles acting out. Unfortunatly they don't realise the difference between the two groups.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Better question: has there been a rise in anti-semitism in Europe?

Or has, perhaps, the coverage of such events changed?

I seem to recall there at one point having been a huge wave of anti-semitic violence here in Germany.

In fact, there had been one prominent case, and suddenly the public eye was on the subject, and news stations/papers responded with increased coverage.

-s*

Yuu mean like the wave of shark attacks in the US before 9/11?

Or the current orgy of kidnappings?



Or maybe this is all just the same old tactic of silencing Israel's political critics?

[Logic]

On a sidenote:

I find it very interesting in retrospect that while I lived in Sweden I joined the "anti-racist" movement, basicly a violent movement that did everything possible to hurt and ridicule neo-nazis and inform people of the threat neo-nazism posed to the public. I'm not proud of the violent part but the message got out and into the evening news. At the same time as neo-nazism went undergound for some time.

But back to why I mention this. The most interesting part was to see Swedes, Arabs and Jews joining in the "fight". There seemed to be a strong connection between many of the muslim arabs and the jews. So the claim some make about the arab inhabitants of europe as being anti-semitists is not correct. Or at least it wasn't correct back then.

I'll stop now............

[eklipse]

I too have not noticed a 'rise' in anti-semitism (to be precise, I haven't seen any indication of it at all), has anyone? - recently?

The evidence given in the article didn't seem too compelling or conclusive, but Giuliani's statement seemed to suggest there was a big problem - if there is, the questions I would ask are why? and why now?

[yakkiebah]

hmm an increase? haven't noticed any either. racism towards jews in general seems alot lower compared to other minorities.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Logic:
I haven't noticed any, but if it is true I would guess that some idiots are confusing Israel with Jews. I have noticed an increase in negative views on Israel the last years and that could be the cause. People are getting fed up by how Israel is treating the Palestinians and that can result in some juveniles acting out. Unfortunatly they don't realise the difference between the two groups.

You are probably correct.

Not to get too conspiracy theoretical, but: I wonder, who is doing the confusing? Is it ordinary people confusing Israeli politics with overall Jewish opinion, or, is it pro-Israeli's purposely labelling dislike of Israeli policy as anti-semitism in an effort to stigmatize it?

[Logic]

Originally posted by eklipse:
You are probably correct.

Not to get too conspiracy theoretical, but: I wonder, who is doing the confusing? Is it ordinary people confusing Israeli politics with overall Jewish opinion, or, is it pro-Israeli's purposely labelling dislike of Israeli policy as anti-semitism in an effort to stigmatize it?

I would guess both. Israel is of course a "zionist" state and thereby the connection between Jews and Israel makes this confusion understandable. And I think we have all seen here on the forum how people critisising Israel gets labeled anti-semitists by the some from the pro-Israel crowd. But I have no idea who is more responsible for this.

[Logic]

Originally posted by yakkiebah:
hmm an increase? haven't noticed any either. racism towards jews in general seems alot lower compared to other minorities.

Agreed. The only problem, IMHO, is that Europes history of anti-semitism makes this a more "sexy" topic for the newspapers to report. At least where I lived in Sweden you were in more danger if you were arab or south-american than a jew. I got a lot of heat for hanging out with the "foreigners" because I was white. Fortunatly I spoke perfect swedish so people who didn't know me wasn't able to tell that I too was a foreigner. But like I said, if you are "coloured" you are more likely to be a victim of racism than being of a certain religion. Unless of course if you are showcasing your religion(muslim women and scarfs, jews with the kinara(IIRC) and catholics with the crucifix).

[yakkiebah]

Originally posted by Logic:
I would guess both. Israel is of course a "zionist" state and thereby the connection between Jews and Israel makes this confusion understandable. And I think we have all seen here on the forum how people critisising Israel gets labeled anti-semitists by the some from the pro-Israel crowd. But I have no idea who is more responsible for this.

not to downplay any real incidents, but yes i think this plays a big role.

As for the article, discrimination is already a criminal offence in the Netherlands(#1 in our constitution), and we have alot of problems prosecuting neo-nazi's who have websites hosted in the US because of freedom of speech(#1 constition of the US). Interesting though that they mention the problem that we have regarding hate messages on the internet.

As for the other example of anti-semitists overhere they mention "[racist] music [and] racist slogans in football stadiums". This is not news, and it's not aimed at the jewish people but to the other football club. I agree though that something should be done about it.

Neither of these two are exactly great examples of an increase of hate towards jews.

[moki]

Originally posted by Logic:
I haven't noticed any, but if it is true I would guess that some idiots are confusing Israel with Jews. I have noticed an increase in negative views on Israel the last years and that could be the cause. People are getting fed up by how Israel is treating the Palestinians and that can result in some juveniles acting out. Unfortunatly they don't realise the difference between the two groups.

Out of curiosity, have you noticed people getting fed up with the Palestinians blowing themselves up in public places?

Personally, I think both sides are acting atrociously, and I'd hope that people would be equally disgusted by both sides. It's quite clear Hamas does not want peace, they want the destruction of Israel (they've said as much in recent days).

It's also clear that the Palestinians are the pariahs of the area: neighboring Arab states have no use for them, and have treated them horribly as well... except when they are a useful scapegoat for focusing the anger of the populace of places like Syria away from the corrupt regimes...

[Logic]

Originally posted by yakkiebah:
As for the article, discrimination is already a criminal offence in the Netherlands(#1 in our constitution), and we have alot of problems prosecuting neo-nazi's who have websites hosted in the US because of freedom of speech(#1 constition of the US). Interesting though that they mention the problem that we have regarding hate messages on the internet.

In Sweden freedom of speech is very important and therefor the government couldn't stop neo-nazis marching down the main-street celebrating Hitlers birthday. But at the same time discrimination is a criminal offence. That makes anti-semitic remarks legal. Actually we(anti-racists) used the exact same rules for our rallies against neo-nazis. I don't think we should ban hate messages unless they are inciting people to harm people of a certain race. But this focus on anti-semitism instead of on racism in general I find ridiculous.

As for the other example of anti-semitists overhere they mention "[racist] music [and] racist slogans in football stadiums". This is not news, and it's not aimed at the jewish people but to the other football club. I agree though that something should be done about it.

Actually I don't remember any specific anti-semitic songs and slogans being sung at football matches. Just the regular racist remarks aimed at the opponents "coloured" players. Like you said, this isn't news. Also it is ignorant to bring that up since UEFA is taking actions against the racism and has been doing that for years. So why they brought that up I don't know.

Neither of these examples are exactly great examples of an increase of hate towards jews.

Agreed.

[Logic]

Originally posted by moki:
Out of curiosity, have you noticed people getting fed up with the Palestinians blowing themselves up in public places?

Yes, from all races. Even palestinians themselves. But lets stick to the topic at hand, OK?

[yakkiebah]

Originally posted by Logic:
[B]Actually I don't remember any specific anti-semitic songs and slogans being sung at football matches. Just the regular racist remarks aimed at the opponents "coloured" players. Like you said, this isn't news. Also it is ignorant to bring that up since UEFA is taking actions against the racism and has been doing that for years. So why they brought that up I don't know./B]

Yeah but you should know they mentioned the Dutch in particular. Let me explain, our local football club from Amsterdam, Ajax, has been characterized as jewish by it's fans, espacially by the hardcore. Why? God knows, i have no idea why, there's not a single jewish person to be found in the organization on any level, not on the field not in management etc. Neither am i familiar of any hystorical background that connects the club with Israel or jewish people or persons in general. Yet they all wear Israeli signs on their jackets or wave Israeli flags.

Now what mostly happens when they play a match against Feyenoord in particular(Local club of Rotterdam) is that both sides starts singing or yelling extremely offending texts. The whole crowd for example yells "gassssssssssssssssss" or "hamas hamas, all jews should be gassed"(in dutch ofcourse). And then the other side responses something along the line(and this should rhyme but only in dutch) "rotterdam, you were flattend during the war". Neither of these songs are actually aimed at jews or those people who got bombed during WW2. You just have a bunch of mindless idiots who love to annoy the crap out of the other side.

This has been so for as far as i can remember.

[itai195]

I'm not sure how much clout Rudolph Giuliani has regarding this, but Amnesty International's 2003 Annual Report has this to say:

Arabs continued to be the main target of daily acts of a racist nature. There was also a wave of attacks on the large Jewish community, with up to 395 anti-Semitic incidents recorded during March and April alone. During that time several synagogues, including those in Lyon, Montpellier and Strasbourg, were vandalized. A synagogue in Marseille was burned down and there was a fire at a Jewish school near Paris.

In May, in a joint statement, AI and Human Rights Watch condemned racist attacks on Jews and Arabs in a number of European countries, including France, and called on the French authorities, among others, to redouble their efforts to combat racism in all its forms and to bring to justice suspected perpetrators of "hate crimes". In December proposed legislation to increase penalties for offences of a "racist, anti-Semitic or xenophobic nature" was presented to parliament.

I should add I don't think that Western Europe is by any means alone here. There has been a marked increase in anti-Semitic (speaking of Jews and Arabs) violence in the US too over the last 1-2 years.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by itai195:
I'm not sure how much clout Rudolph Giuliani has regarding this, but Amnesty International's 2003 Annual Report has this to say:



I should add I don't think that Western Europe is by any means alone here. There has been a marked increase in anti-Semitic (speaking of Jews and Arabs) violence in the US too over the last 1-2 years.

link?

[Logic]

yakkiebah: That is what I remember but that is never taken as it would be aimed at jews. Of course this shouldn't be accepted, but to use this as something showing how big anti-semitism is in Europe is ignorant. Don't you agree?

ps. I thought Ajax fans would only yell "Zlatan, Zlatan!"

Originally posted by itai195:
I'm not sure how much clout Rudolph Giuliani has regarding this, but Amnesty International's 2003 Annual Report has this to say:

I should add I don't think that Western Europe is by any means alone here. There has been a marked increase in anti-Semitic (speaking of Jews and Arabs) violence in the US too over the last 1-2 years.

Could you provide a link for that article?
The article basicly says what we have been arguing here. Arabs are the most common victims, even if jews and their sacred places get their share as well. Also it mentions that racism in all forms should be tackled and doesn't mention that anti-semitism(aimed at jews) should be focused on more than other forms of racism like the original article did.

[yakkiebah]

logic: yep, exactly my point.

There's another thing i forgot the mention in my post about the neo-nazi website. These aren't regular neo-nazi sites with ordinary fascist and racist content. They have posted a long list of names, addresses and photo's of jewish people living overhere so that people can find and harrass or assault them.

That goes clearly beyond freedom of speech.

[ODL]

I was banned from MacNN for not being pro-Israel, so perhaps I have a different perspective.

The problem isn't anti-Semitism, which the media seems to be hyper-sensitive to, but casual anti-Arab discrimination. Every night is Kristallnacht in Palestine but no one takes ny notice. And yet a couple of synagogues get vandalized and it's the end of the world...

Actually I don't remember any specific anti-semitic songs and slogans being sung at football matches. Just the regular racist remarks aimed at the opponents "coloured" players. Like you said, this isn't news. Also it is ignorant to bring that up since UEFA is taking actions against the racism and has been doing that for years. So why they brought that up I don't know.

A recent development in Scottish football is that Celtic supporters wave Palestinian flags and Rangers supporters wave Israeli flags. The reason is that Celtic supporters are mainly Catholics who support the Republicans in Northern Ireland. And the Rangers fans hate Catholics, though I'm not sure they'd want to go as far as killing children with helicopter gunships.



_____
Oswald Defense Lawyer

[Logic]

Originally posted by yakkiebah:
logic: yep, exactly my point.

There's another thing i forgot the mention in my post about the neo-nazi website. These aren't regular neo-nazi sites with ordinary fascist and racist content. They have posted a long list of names, addresses and photo's of jewish people living overhere so that people can find and harrass or assault them.

That goes clearly beyond freedom of speech.

I remember the problems that followed the exact same thing in Sweden. It was a long debate over what should be more important, free speech or discrimination laws. IIRC the hate sites with name and addresses were closed after an incident where a neo-nazi killed one target on the list. Of course those sites should be closed and the people responsible charged. The question is will the US do something about that to help us in this battle or will they just put all the blame on us?

[Millennium]

Originally posted by ODL:
I was banned from MacNN for not being pro-Israel, so perhaps I have a different perspective.

Again, that would be news to me. Although it is true that I haven't been as active in recent weeks as I once was, and so I was not active in the discussion of whether or not the ban should have taken place, I am unable to find anything whatsoever in the record which would indicate that you were banned for not being pro-Israel.

[Millennium]

I am bothered by this article, though. Any form of racism, including anti-Semitism, is a vile thing. But what makes anti-Semitism any more or less vile than any other form of racism? This, I do not understand.

I am disturbed by Dubya's call to ban anti-Semitism from "school textbooks", if only because I suspect that it will go too far, as attempts to ban anything inevitably do. Will they ban or censor The Great Gatsby, which contains a single instance of the K-word (albeit with an uncommon spelling)? Considering how many schools have banned Huckleberry Finn, generally considered one of the great works of American literature, I can only guess that this will probably be the case.

And that is not the answer. It is true that many aspects of the past, including literature, contain things that we would now consider abhorrent. The answer is not to ban these, but to become mature enough to examine them both in our modern context and in the context of the time in which they were written. When these works were written, those words were considered acceptable, and the authors meant no offense. To take offense at those words as written would be far more disrespectful to the authors than the authors ever meant to be to their readers.

[Logic]

Millenium gets the daily golf clap.

: golf clap :

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Logic:
Millenium gets the daily golf clap.

: golf clap :

I'll second that

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Millennium:
I am bothered by this article, though. Any form of racism, including anti-Semitism, is a vile thing. But what makes anti-Semitism any more or less vile than any other form of racism? This, I do not understand.

I am disturbed by Dubya's call to ban anti-Semitism from "school textbooks", if only because I suspect that it will go too far, as attempts to ban anything inevitably do. Will they ban or censor The Great Gatsby, which contains a single instance of the K-word (albeit with an uncommon spelling)? Considering how many schools have banned Huckleberry Finn, generally considered one of the great works of American literature, I can only guess that this will probably be the case.

And that is not the answer. It is true that many aspects of the past, including literature, contain things that we would now consider abhorrent. The answer is not to ban these, but to become mature enough to examine them both in our modern context and in the context of the time in which they were written. When these works were written, those words were considered acceptable, and the authors meant no offense. To take offense at those words as written would be far more disrespectful to the authors than the authors ever meant to be to their readers.

Ditto.
`Travelling Salesman' soon to be called `Travelling Salesperson'?

I have read an article in Newsweek about the censorship in schoolbooks and I have seen a list of words with their replacement ... your are absolutely on target saying that this usually goes too far.

On a personal note, I haven't seen a rise in anti-semitism in Germany.

[OreoCookie]

I also agree with the general consensus that anti-semitism shouldn't be singled out. Every form of hate crime needs to be addressed.

Some parts of the article are also not accurate. In Germany it is a criminal offence to deny the Holocaust, etc.

Bush's comment about school books suggests that there still is anti-semitism spread in (American and European) school books. I have seen none (except for exerts from Third Reich school books in our history class and our politics class, but that doesn't count). Sounds like he is paying lip service to lobbies.

[yakkiebah]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<snip>

me too, me too

very well said

[Developer]

Originally posted by Millennium:
the K-word

What's the "k-word"?

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by Developer:
What's the "k-word"?

Rhymes with "bike."

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I also agree with the general consensus that anti-semitism shouldn't be singled out. Every form of hate crime needs to be addressed.

Every form of CRIME. Calling something a hate crime is just another way of separating groups rather than uniting them.

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Some parts of the article are also not accurate. In Germany it is a criminal offence to deny the Holocaust, etc.

There's freedom for you. Suck at history, get charged with a crime.

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Bush's comment about school books suggests that there still is anti-semitism spread in (American and European) school books. I have seen none (except for exerts from Third Reich school books in our history class and our politics class, but that doesn't count). Sounds like he is paying lip service to lobbies.

Possibly a little bit of lip service. I don't remember any anti-Semitism in my texts.

But I can't speak for textbooks anywhere other than where I live.

[Logic]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Every form of CRIME. Calling something a hate crime is just another way of separating groups rather than uniting them.

There's freedom for you. Suck at history, get charged with a crime.

Possibly a little bit of lip service. I don't remember any anti-Semitism in my texts.

But I can't speak for textbooks anywhere other than where I live.

I agree with you on the hate crime-crime issue. No need to label it in a special way. A crime is a crime no matter what.

I actually don't agree with the German approach to the holocaust but I do understand it. I don't think we should ban opinions, but we should strike down the sites that show names and addresses of people of jewish, arab or any other race/religion.

But for the anti-semitism in textbooks, I would liked to have some more specific details and perhaps examples of what they were talking about. What do they label as anti-semitism? I have no idea where they draw the line.

[Developer]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Rhymes with "bike."

Kike?
Sorry, English is not my native language. Can't you just tell?

[thunderous_funker]

I do think there is usefulness in designating "hate crimes" as different than regular vandalism or hooliganism. For one, they tend to enjoy the support of organized bodies, financially and ideologically. It's necessary to root out these elements, not just treat the symptoms (individual acts of violence).

By creating seperate legal distinctions, you creates better law enforcement tools for taking down the money, organization and leaders who incite this kind of violence.

Hate crimes are more than just muggings, vandalism or assault.

[holymoly]

Originally posted by Logic:
On a sidenote:

I find it very interesting in retrospect that while I lived in Sweden I joined the "anti-racist" movement, basicly a violent movement that did everything possible to hurt and ridicule neo-nazis and inform people of the threat neo-nazism posed to the public. I'm not proud of the violent part but the message got out and into the evening news. At the same time as neo-nazism went undergound for some time.

Excellent. Only the Swedes could do something so cool as to be violently anti-racist.

Thunderous Funker is correct. Media trumpetting of "Anti-Semitism" is cover for logical disgust of Isreali policy regarding Palestine.

It is finally becoming evident to the general public that Isreal has been, for many years witht the help of the U.S., engaged in a kind of genocide itself. Isreal and American have become the arch-hypocrits. Many countries around the world have come out against Isreali policies. Now Isreal must counter this with cries of "anti-semitism" I am sure at the counsel of the U.S. who has informed the Isrealis that it will play well to American public opinion.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by holymoly:

Thunderous Funker is correct. Media trumpetting of "Anti-Semitism" is cover for logical disgust of Isreali policy regarding Palestine.

Incorrect. This assertion is incorrect, and repulsive.

what are the comparisons? How, even in the minds of those who spout these horrific allegations, can Israel and Jews be compared to those who perpetrated the greatest crime against humanity in the history of humankind?

The spurious argument goes that the military might of Israel, comparable to the militaristic Nazi war machine, is directed against a beleaguered Palestinian population who live in sprawling shantytown refugee camps. Military restrictions mean that the average Palestinian is confined to his town or village, like Jews confined were to ghettos, and that Israeli soldiers at checkpoints humiliate them in the same way that the SS humiliated Jews. Israel, the superior enemy, targets and kills Palestinians, just as the Nazis preyed on powerless Jews during the Holocaust. Israeli oppression and the occupation of the West Bank parallel the aggressively executed expansionist policies of Hitler's regime, and are a nationalist anachronism in the post-modern, twenty-first century world.

So there you have it. A neat thesis, that seems to hang Israel with its own Jewish rope. The Jews have been going on for decades about the crimes perpetrated against them by Hitler, and when given the chance, they behave identically towards the Palestinians. The trouble is that the accusations don't match the facts, and the inhuman crimes of the Nazis are hardly similar to the actions of Israel against the Palestinians. In fact, there is nothing more sick then a vile lie that in some kind of warped way gets the western world off the hook for having stood by whilst six million Jews were slaughtered across Europe between 1939 and 1945. 'It was a terrible crime, but the Jews are no better,' is possibly the most disgusting aspect of this unacceptable comparison.

So why are these allegations without foundation? Simply, because no Jew wants the Palestinians to suffer. Because no Israeli has as his ultimate objective the obliteration of Arabs and Muslims from the face of this Earth. Because what every Jew and certainly every Israeli would like, is for Jew and Arab to live side by side in peace and tranquility. Because what every Jew resents is the fact that Israel can only exist because of military might, and that its survival depends on it.

The Zionism is Nazism accusation is without foundation, superficial and twisted. No Jew has ever herded any Palestinian into a refugee camp, recently or in the past. Whether or not Arabs left their homes in Palestine of their own accord, or were chased out by Israel after the declaration of independence in 1948 is something that is debated by historians.

What is beyond debate is that hundreds of thousands of Jews who lost their homes on the Arab side of the Armistice Line in Palestine, or in Arab countries across the Middle East, were absorbed successfully by a fledgling Israel in the years that followed. No such effort was made by Arab countries to absorb or even improve the conditions of Palestinian refugees in the twenty odd years before the six-day war of 1967.


Now, back to the topic, which is Europe, not the Middle East.

It is finally becoming evident to the general public that Isreal has been, for many years witht the help of the U.S., engaged in a kind of genocide itself. Isreal and American have become the arch-hypocrits.

I don't hear pro-Palestinians referring to Egypt's Nasser as a Nazi for allowing inhuman conditions to flourish in Gaza's disgraceful, ghetto like refugee camps. Nor recently? Millions of dollars have been pumped into the Palestinian Authority coffers over the past eight years from EU funds that include British taxpayers' money. Why hasn't Yassir Arafat used this money to alleviate his own people from their life of squalor and the ramshackle accommodation? Does that make him incompetent? Yes. Corrupt? Probably. A Nazi? Hardly.

[holymoly]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Incorrect. This assertion is incorrect, and repulsive.

what are the comparisons? ...

... Yes. Corrupt? Probably. A Nazi? Hardly.

You are simply in denial of the facts and the current situation. I am trying to get off the hook of letting 6 million Jews die? I assume you mean Europe here. I and the people I live with everyday are decendents of people that enslaved, tortured, raped, and mudered Native Americans and African Americans. I hope you don't think I am trying to let them off the hook.

Why can't you just admit as I have just done that America and Isreal are murdering innocent people in the name of religion, progres whatever. Once you do that you will see the situation for what it is. Killing in the name of power.

My country has just done it in Iraq and Afghanistan and your Isreal is doing it daily. Against international condemnation and the UN.

Maybe we need a 12-step program for people who are addicted to revisionist, convenient and apologetic history and information.

I hope you can see that this is not an attack against you as you seem to think I have done in the past. I am simply attacking your view of one situation. If not feel free to ban me (raskol) again.

[ODL]

How, even in the minds of those who spout these horrific allegations, can Israel and Jews be compared to those who perpetrated the greatest crime against humanity in the history of humankind?

The greatest crime in the history of humankind? Are you talking about the 50+ million killed in Soviet Russia? Or the 30 million killed in Maoist China? (Marx and Engels: 80 million) Or the 10 million killed by the Belgians in the Congo? Are Jewish lives worth more than other lives? Can you please clarify?

[thunderous_funker]

Just a pause to remove my arguments from this budding flamefest:

I said that raising the cry of "anti-semitism" is often a tactic used to silence Israel's critics. That doesn't mean anti-semitism doesn't really exist or that many in Europe haven't historically winked at it.

I might compare Israel's policies in the occupied territories to Apartheid, but not the Theird Reich. vmarks is perfectly right to get riled up by any comparisons to Nazi germany.

I think the "wave" of anti-semitism Europe is grossly overstated. As others have pointed out, it might be enjoying increased TV coverage, but that doesn't mean pogroms are making a comeback.

I think it's purely political to suggest that hate crimes against Jews should be considered a particularly pernicious form of racism. All racism should be stamped out with equal determination regardless of the political clout of the minority in question. In fact, if certain parties succeed in elevating hate crimes against Jews above other acts of racism, they'll probably do more to encourage anti-semitism than they will to suppress it.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled irrational comparisons to the Nazis and the Holocaust...

[holymoly]

Originally posted by ODL:
The greatest crime in the history of humankind? Are you talking about the 50+ million killed in Soviet Russia? Or the 30 million killed in Maoist China? (Marx and Engels: 80 million) Or the 10 million killed by the Belgians in the Congo? Are Jewish lives worth more than other lives? Can you please clarify?

OH ODL did you get banned for stating the blatantly obvious?

[holymoly]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Just a pause to remove my arguments from this budding flamefest:

You may now return to your regularly scheduled irrational comparisons to the Nazis and the Holocaust...

hey don't label this a flamefest. These comparisons are not literal. They are for the sake of seeing things in relation to others.

I don't understand why an argument that goes beyond being a wussy discussion is a flamefest.

I took no offense to anything vmarks said in reply to me. It is hard to be offended when you accept the facts. Unfortunately as the public has examined the issue of the middle east and the American duplicity it is becoming clear. Isreal is bringing anti-jewish attitudes on themselves.

I thought this was a discussion of anti-semitism. You cannot divorce European perceptions of Jews from todays Isreal. My aunt is Jewish. I have nothing against her racially. She has abandoned any religious silliness and I am an atheist so her race means nothing to me except that she is really short. I like Jewish girls. They're sexy. Why can't we all just get along. In bed.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by vmarks:
what are the comparisons? How, even in the minds of those who spout these horrific allegations, can Israel and Jews be compared to those who perpetrated the greatest crime against humanity in the history of humankind?

Firstly, I don't believe anyone was accusing Israel of Nazi like tactics (not yet anyway). The issue being discussed was whether instances of 'anti-semitism' were a misrepresentation by the media of the general anger towards Israel over its treatment of the Palestinians. Why so defensive?

The spurious argument goes that the military might of Israel, comparable to the militaristic Nazi war machine, is directed against a beleaguered Palestinian population who live in sprawling shantytown refugee camps. Military restrictions mean that the average Palestinian is confined to his town or village, like Jews confined were to ghettos, and that Israeli soldiers at checkpoints humiliate them in the same way that the SS humiliated Jews. Israel, the superior enemy, targets and kills Palestinians, just as the Nazis preyed on powerless Jews during the Holocaust. Israeli oppression and the occupation of the West Bank parallel the aggressively executed expansionist policies of Hitler's regime, and are a nationalist anachronism in the post-modern, twenty-first century world.

Your description of Palestinian suffering seems pretty accurate even without the Nazi/Holocaust parallels.

So there you have it. A neat thesis, that seems to hang Israel with its own Jewish rope. The Jews have been going on for decades about the crimes perpetrated against them by Hitler, and when given the chance, they behave identically towards the Palestinians. The trouble is that the accusations don't match the facts, and the inhuman crimes of the Nazis are hardly similar to the actions of Israel against the Palestinians. In fact, there is nothing more sick then a vile lie that in some kind of warped way gets the western world off the hook for having stood by whilst six million Jews were slaughtered across Europe between 1939 and 1945. 'It was a terrible crime, but the Jews are no better,' is possibly the most disgusting aspect of this unacceptable comparison.

How many times can Israel keep playing this card? Are you saying a Jewish life is worth more than any other? Every time someone levels a criticism against Israel regarding its policy towards the Palestinians, the Holocaust is thrown back in their faces and they are branded anti-Semitic. In my opinion, this argument is used far too often by Israel as a get-off-free-card that allows them to, quite literally, get away with murder.

So why are these allegations without foundation? Simply, because no Jew wants the Palestinians to suffer. Because no Israeli has as his ultimate objective the obliteration of Arabs and Muslims from the face of this Earth. Because what every Jew and certainly every Israeli would like, is for Jew and Arab to live side by side in peace and tranquility. Because what every Jew resents is the fact that Israel can only exist because of military might, and that its survival depends on it.

With respect, this is very weak. Your portrayal of a gentle, peaceful Israeli collective is not borne out by the facts.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by holymoly:
Excellent. Only the Swedes could do something so cool as to be violently anti-racist.

Actually, there's been plenty of that in Germany, too. At least in the 90's, semi-organized as "Anti-fa" (anti-fascists).

Originally posted by holymoly:
Thunderous Funker is correct. Media trumpetting of "Anti-Semitism" is cover for logical disgust of Isreali policy regarding Palestine.

While I'm not touching the rest of your post with a ten-foot bargepole, this particular snippet I think goes in the right direction.

There is a tendency of late to label anything critical of Israeli politicians and policy as "anti-Semitic". It has been witnessed on these boards as well (whatever happened to Big Mac?). This is very effective in instantly discrediting an opponent, or at least inciting an emotional debate, at which point any reasonable discussion of the actual subject becomes impossible.

It happens in Germany, too, where calling somebody "anti-Semitic" immediately raises red flags. We're only *just* learning to distinguish that from sensible discussion - it's obviously a sore topic here.

A similar tactic was used by Scientology to insinuate that there was a new Holocaust going on with regard to Scientologists, when all that was happening was that activists and government workers were uncovering methods, tactics, and connections Scientology was using to achieve their less-than-noble goals.

It is disgusting, and it is terribly effective, to throw out "Anti-Semite!" every time something critical is said, but it also reflects poorly on the accuser.

(I am NOT saying that there isn't real anti-Semitism that is merely "riding the wave", so to speak - using current events to justify and further its own agenda. THAT is just as disgusting.)

-s*

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Every form of CRIME. Calling something a hate crime is just another way of separating groups rather than uniting them.



There's freedom for you. Suck at history, get charged with a crime.



Possibly a little bit of lip service. I don't remember any anti-Semitism in my texts.

But I can't speak for textbooks anywhere other than where I live.

I was just lacking a better word for any form of discrimination of various sorts.

I dislike very much this FUD from lobbyists from all over the political spectrum. And Jews have very well organized lobbies, especially in Europe and the US. Which is fine. But you shouldn't take any lobbying group too seriously and you should always be aware of what their interests are. Like reading the word `nigger' or so in Tom Sawyer. You know where that came from and why it was written that way.

In Germany, politicians as well as average people are afraid to be singled out as anti-semitic by anyone -- be it legitimate criticism or not. Very often it is not. But then again, similar things happen with respect to America, too.

against Sharon's politics ==> against Israel ==> against Jews is simply not true. I am against Sharon's politics, but I am not against the state of Israel, let alone Jews.

against Bush ==> against America is also not true.

Maybe the touchiest one is the point of reference as to whether or not a text is anti-semitic.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Incorrect. This assertion is incorrect, and repulsive.

...

The spurious argument goes that the military might of Israel, comparable to the militaristic Nazi war machine, is directed against a beleaguered Palestinian population who live in sprawling shantytown refugee camps. Military restrictions mean that the average Palestinian is confined to his town or village, like Jews confined were to ghettos, and that Israeli soldiers at checkpoints humiliate them in the same way that the SS humiliated Jews. Israel, the superior enemy, targets and kills Palestinians, just as the Nazis preyed on powerless Jews during the Holocaust. Israeli oppression and the occupation of the West Bank parallel the aggressively executed expansionist policies of Hitler's regime, and are a nationalist anachronism in the post-modern, twenty-first century world.

...

I know of at least one instance that former Holocaust victims protested against IDF tactics: Numbers were written on Palestinians with permanent marker. Holocaust victims have complained that the Nazis have also tatooed Jews (and other groups put in Concentration Camps) with an id number and that the IDF was using the same method.

AFAIK, that was stopped after one or two days or so.

So you shouldn't dismiss that criticism that quickly. Israel is walking on a thin line. Regardless of the comparison with 1933-1945, the picture of Israel suffocating the Palestinians is hard to fight. Israel is more powerful, withholds money, destroys Palestinian infrastructure, etc. Unemployment rates are extremely high, these people have problems to earn enough to make a living.

Originally posted by vmarks:
Incorrect. This assertion is incorrect, and repulsive.

...

So why are these allegations without foundation? Simply, because no Jew wants the Palestinians to suffer. Because no Israeli has as his ultimate objective the obliteration of Arabs and Muslims from the face of this Earth. Because what every Jew and certainly every Israeli would like, is for Jew and Arab to live side by side in peace and tranquility. Because what every Jew resents is the fact that Israel can only exist because of military might, and that its survival depends on it.

...

This is not true. Israeli extremists don't differ from Palestinian extremists (`This is our land and there is just enough space for one of us, and that's not you.'). This has been thoroughly discussed. That is a `rosarot' picture of the Israeli side (meaning painted in white) whereas this simply isn't true.

[Developer]

OK, now that this is outdiscussed, can someone please tell me what the "k-word" is. Thanks.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Developer:
OK, now that this is outdiscussed, can someone please tell me what the "k-word" is. Thanks.

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