[Eug Wanker]

http://blog.macgeneration.com/wp-con...5_rev_asch.jpg

[xe0]

[Anand]

The only new model is really the 2.5 Ghz model. Everything else, even the prices are either higher or close (for education buyers).

[Zoom]

Well, it appears that my first guess was correct. The new PowerMacs were being release now, ahead of WWDC, because they're no big deal. Bummer. Major bummer. Now I have to try to decide whether to wait for the next rev or not. No, not the classic wait-forever-for-the-latest-and-greatest thing. I'm certain that a significant upgrade will happen before winter, and not just the promised 3GHz. I'm guessing full case resign. And this ain't it.

[Zoom]

I printed out the Apple Store page for the PM's yesterday, just so I could compare the last set with the new set. I only listed the changes.

low-end:
- $1800 -> $2000
- single -> dual
- 1.6GHz -> 1.8GHz
- 800MHz FSB -> 900MHz
- DDR333 -> DDR400
- new SuperDrive?

mid-level:
- 1.8GHz -> 2.0GHz
- .9GHz FSB -> 1GHz
- new SuperDrive?

high-level:
- 2GHz -> 2.5GHz
- 1GHz FSB -> 1.25GHz
- Radeon 9600 Pro -> 9600 XT
- 64MB VRAM -> 128MB
- new SuperDrive?

I'm not sure about the SuperDrive.

I think the price points are all the same, but I printed the educational price list, so I'm not 100% sure.

Personally, I think this sucks.

[Eug Wanker]

Hmmm... Note the heatsink covers...

[img]

Originally posted by dreamtime:
I'm perplexed by the complete lack of rumblings on iMac revamps.

Think Secret makes the most confident remarks about new displays I've heard yet though. I can't wait to see the new form factor, specs and sheer presence of a 30" if true (and price of course).

[/img]

$2,999.00
Dual 2.5GHz PowerPC G5 - shipping July
1.25GHz frontside bus/processor
512K L2 cache/processor
512MB DDR400 SDRAM
Expandable to 8GB SDRAM
160GB Serial ATA
8x SuperDrive
Three PCI-X Slots
ATI Radeon 9600 XT
128MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem

$2,499.00
Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5 - shipping 1-3 days
1GHz frontside bus/processor
512K L2 cache/processor
512MB DDR400 SDRAM
Expandable to 8GB SDRAM
160GB Serial ATA
8x SuperDrive
Three PCI-X Slots
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
64MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem

$1,999.00
Dual 1.8GHz PowerPC G5 - shipping 1-3 days
900MHz frontside bus/processor
512K L2 cache/processor
256MB DDR400 SDRAM
Expandable to 4GB SDRAM
80GB Serial ATA
8x SuperDrive
Three PCI Slots
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
64MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem

The video card is upgradable to a 9800 XT for $300. But where is the X800??? Oh, and it has both ADC and DVI connectors. No dual DVI. It will be interesting to see (if true) what the 30" 2560x1600 display update brings. I would have expected that to be dual DVI. (It can't function with just one DVI cable because the resolution is too high.)

[Eug Wanker]

Oops. Misposted picture. Why can't I edit my posts? Anyways...

Hmmm... Note the heatsink covers...

[Zoom]

I think someone else mentioned this, but if you look at it, all they really did was remove the old low-end 1.6GHz model, shift the top two models down, and add a new high-end model.

That is, the old entry level model is gone; the old mid-level is now the new entry level model (with a smaller HD); and the old high-end model is now the mid-level model (with a better video card).

Lame. No wonder they didn't wait for WWDC. Steve would have been booed.

But again, this supports my previously stated theory that this update really was due in Feb/Mar, and at that time it would have been acceptible. My guess is that the next rev is totally new, so they couldn't just skip a refresh, they HAD to bring out these models or throw them away. I'll bet there's a major redesign before the end of the year, maybe even before winter.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Zoom:
I think someone else mentioned this, but if you look at it, all they really did was remove the old low-end 1.6GHz model, shift the top two models down, and add a new high-end model.

More importantly, I suspect it means that there are still 970FX yield issues, since the 1.8 and 2.0 could very well be 970s, with only the 2.5 being a 970FX.

Perhaps they're rationing the slower 970FX chips to have them go into the new iMacs. I hope.

[Eug Wanker]

The new 2.5 GHz dual G5 uses liquid cooling.

PDF Page 21: http://www.apple.com/powermac/pdf/Po...O_06092004.pdf

[Eug Wanker]

[Eug Wanker]

[SciFrog]

Who knows what the CPU chips are?

970, 970FX or 975 in the lineup?

if the 2.5Ghz was the 975, that would be a nice update.

Also no one mentioned the lack of a second optional optical drive or more HD space as rumored when the new internal pics were shown?
Personaly I don't think it is a big deal, Firewire covers these gaps.

[Zoom]

Okay, so now I'm waiting for WWDC. My guess is that there will be new display (due to the rumors and the sale on displays ending June 26) and probably a new iMac/eMac/Cube thing (some brand new consumer model). I want to see what shows up there. If there's a G5 iMac-type thing, I may consider buying it. Otherwise, I'll probably just wait for the next rev. As much as I want a new G5, I don't absolutely need it. I don't know. I'm on the fence. But I'm definitely not thrilled with this update.

[Eug Wanker]

Apple says no G5 3.0 GHz anytime soon.
No G5 PowerBook in 2004 either.

[action]

what makes this even worse is that the new highend machine isn't even ready for delivery. having had to deal with the original g5 and original 17 inch powerbook launch problems, i have no confidence what so ever the high end machine will ship in any quanity until september.

this is so underwhelming i'm glad i made my original purchase when i did. depending on when the high end actually ships i would not expect another update on the powermacs until next march.

if anyone is in the market i would highly recommend purchasing a apple refurb dual 2. they should be close to $2000 and that would be a steal.

don't wait for a rev c. buy a refurb rev a. and save yourself tons of money.

until the thing starts shipping it still doesn't exist.

my 2 cents.

chung lee

[Zoom]

Originally posted by action:
don't wait for a rev c. buy a refurb rev a. and save yourself tons of money.

I think you may be right. I may do just that.

Why does it have to be refurb? Because there are no boxed units left to sell?

Can you still buy the older units from the Apple Store? How about with the education discount?

[Zoom]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Apple says no G5 3.0 GHz anytime soon.

This doesn't surprise me at all. They HAD to say this, otherwise no one would buy these "upgraded" G5s. It's no coincidence that this information came out today. (Mac journalists have surely been asking Apple this question for months, they just decided to answer it today for MacWorld.)

I assume it's true. I mean, I would be pissed if Apple said this and then debuted the 3GHz G5 in October. It'll probably happen at January's MWSF, unless sales really drag and they try putting it out before Christmas.

Honestly, I don't care much about hitting 3GHz. A dual 1.8GHz or 2GHz is plenty for me. I was more waiting for the case redesign that I also think will come with the 3GHz models.

[action]

zoom,

as of right now there were plenty of rev a dual 2 at the apple store in nyc.

prior to the new release an apple refurb was $2400. i'm just assuming since the new price point is $2500 the refurb will now be closer to $2000.

i was just stating get the refurb for price reasons not supply reasons.

it is now evident that 3 ghz is going to be a ways off. not only are there supply issues with the chip but apple had to resort to an entirely new cooling system to cool these chips. remember when people were shocked at the size of the heat sinks of the original g5's.

now they have to add liquid cooling.

this does not bode well for a g5 powerbook as well.

chung lee

[Zoom]

Get this. I called my local Apple Store (Durham, NC). It's 11:20am. They opened at 10am. I said "Apple released new G5's today. Have the prices come down on the older models?" She said "wait a minute... there are new models out today?" Clueless.

She checked the web and said "hey, you're right". No kidding.

I asked her when the prices might drop. No idea. There ya go.

[action]

here's the link to apple's refurb page.

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL....3.1.1.0?35,39

doesn't look like they updated it.

chung

[swiz]

Originally posted by Zoom:
I was more waiting for the case redesign that I also think will come with the 3GHz models.

Me too, that case is currently too big.

[Eug Wanker]

Maybe it's Cooligy's Microchannel liquid cooling system. It has a pump but no moving parts. Very interesting design.

[Eug Wanker]

Yup, it's truly liquid cooled: Apple liquifies G5

The Cupertino, Calif.,-based computer maker introduced the three new Power Macs Wednesday. The fastest features two 2.5 GHz processors and a 1.25 GHz per processor front side bus, and it is partially cooled by a combination of water and propylene glycol, a clear liquid used in automobile antifreeze.

Internal fans and an open grill enclosure help cool the other two models - a dual 1.8 GHz Power Mac and a 2.0 GHz version.

"It's a completely maintenance free system," Tom Boger, Apple senior director of desktop product marketing, told internetnews.com. "The processor was built using the 90-nanometer process. When you do that, you challenge the power density. You could see the same problem happening with Intel's 90-nanometer chips."

The cooling technique is nothing new. For years, computer enthusiasts and gamers have used various refrigeration techniques, including the use of ethylene glycol or propylene glycol to reduce surface temperature on hot-running chips. Running at top speed, some Mac users report their G5 machines run at temps of 85 Celsius or 185 Fahrenheit. Apple said it designed its G5 systems so that the fluid encircles the two G5 processors and transfers heat from the chips as they work harder. The computers are outfitted with 21 different temperature sensor points to help monitor the system.

[Eug Wanker]

eWeek: Apple Pumps Up Power Macs with Dual Processors

Goguen said it had proved difficult to accommodate the power-density curve presented by the chip. "It's a challenge to cool the part," however, he added that from a user standpoint, the more-efficient water-based cooling combined with the existing segmented air-flow technology let the faster, hotter systems run just as quietly as previous models.

---

BTW, there are some interesting differences between the new and old G5s that aren't so obvious on first glance.

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Note the heatsink covers...

Note that the above new model is different from the old model:




It is remarkably similar to the AppleInsider picture:





And here is the closeup of the new G5's cover:




Basically AI showed a prototype single CPU variant but the released machines are all duals.

[klinux]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Maybe it's Cooligy's Microchannel liquid cooling system. It has a pump but no moving parts. Very interesting design.

It could.

Or if you just follow Occam's Razor, it's a heatpipe.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by klinux:
It could.

Or if you just follow Occam's Razor, it's a heatpipe.

You didn't read the whole thread.

Yup, it's truly liquid cooled: Apple liquifies G5

The Cupertino, Calif.,-based computer maker introduced the three new Power Macs Wednesday. The fastest features two 2.5 GHz processors and a 1.25 GHz per processor front side bus, and it is partially cooled by a combination of water and propylene glycol, a clear liquid used in automobile antifreeze.

Internal fans and an open grill enclosure help cool the other two models - a dual 1.8 GHz Power Mac and a 2.0 GHz version.

"It's a completely maintenance free system," Tom Boger, Apple senior director of desktop product marketing, told internetnews.com. "The processor was built using the 90-nanometer process. When you do that, you challenge the power density. You could see the same problem happening with Intel's 90-nanometer chips."

The cooling technique is nothing new. For years, computer enthusiasts and gamers have used various refrigeration techniques, including the use of ethylene glycol or propylene glycol to reduce surface temperature on hot-running chips. Running at top speed, some Mac users report their G5 machines run at temps of 85 Celsius or 185 Fahrenheit. Apple said it designed its G5 systems so that the fluid encircles the two G5 processors and transfers heat from the chips as they work harder. The computers are outfitted with 21 different temperature sensor points to help monitor the system.

We'll find out soon enough the definitive truth I guess...

[klinux]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
You didn't read the whole thread.

Yes I did. You don't think the liquid inside inside the heatpipe is just plain water or koolaid, do you?

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by klinux:
Yes I did. You don't think the liquid inside inside the heatpipe is just plain water or koolaid, do you?

Well, I'm wondering why they didn't use this type of marketing with PowerBooks or the previous G5 because they both use heatpipes. Even the G4 Power Macs used heatpipes IIRC.

[Eug Wanker]

The good:

- 2.5 GHz is quite a nice chip. Competitive.
- The new cooling system might be quieter.
- The new case design is purdier than even the old one, and that's no small feat.
- DDR400 support on the low end machine.
- System migration feature. (This will surely be available to other systems too.)
- Video card options upgraded to 9600 XT and 9800 XT.
- No more whining about missing G5 updates for a while.

The bad:

- The 1.8 and 2.0 are still 130 nm chips. That in itself isn't bad (except potentially for fan noise), but it might suggest ongoing 90 nm yield issues. Do 1.4-2.0 GHz 970FX chips need to be rationed for iMacs and Xserves?
- No Radeon X800 option. WTF? (AGP would be fine. I would not expect PCIe since there are no low end PCIe cards available.)
- No single CPU Power Mac at $1599 (although the single 1.6 is still out there... at $1699 and in low supply). Could this mean a single CPU line other than the iMac? Hmmm...
- They could have upped the low end video card a notch.
- Dual 1.8 with 4 memory slots and only 256 MB standard (using up 2 memory slots).
- No room for 3 hard drives.

Overall, I think the CPU speed is fine (contrary to the 3 GHz whiners), but I also think the other aspects are a little disappointing. IOW, this seems like an adequate update but nothing more.

[klinux]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Well, I'm wondering why they didn't use this type of marketing with PowerBooks or the previous G5 because they both use heatpipes. Even the G4 Power Macs used heatpipes IIRC.

Yes, I wondered about that as well. I have not heard of anything about rev A G5s using heatpipes until the most recent annoucement. Now suddenly virtual every Mac uses heatpipes???

Does anyone have a pic of heatpipes in use in rev A G5s and other machines?

For example, there seems to be one in the current 12" PB, for example (from http://www.kodawarisan.com/)

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by klinux:
Yes, I wondered about that as well. I have not heard of anything about rev A G5s using heatpipes until the most recent annoucement. Now suddenly virtual every Mac uses heatpipes???

Does anyone have a pic of heatpipes in use in rev A G5s and other machines?

Pix

What Apple describes for the dual G5 2.5 is different from the heatpipes they've used in the past. That's why I think it may be true that the new dual 2.5 GHz G5s do in fact use real liquid cooling and not just heatpipes.

BTW, not that it means anything per se, but it seems (from my superficial understanding of a few words of Japanese) that they're using the same marketing on the Japanese website too.

[Eug Wanker]

Some articles from 8 months ago:

MacCentral: Liquid-cooled Macs could be in the future

X-bit labs: Intel, AMD, Apple to Utilise Water-Cooling in Future? Cooligy Claims So

Wired: How Computer Chips Keep Cool

The cooling system can handle 1,000 watts per square centimeter, the company claims. Passive cooling systems can cool only 250 watts per square centimeter, according to the company.

The technology was originally developed at Stanford under Darpa's Heretic program, an effort to develop solid-state, heat-dissipation devices for microelectronics and photonics.

Apple Computer, Advanced Micro Devices and Intel also cooperated, the company said. "The Intel test produced the highest performance Intel had ever seen from any cooling technology," Cooligy said.

Note this quote from IT World:

The new 970FX processor is much smaller than its 0.13-micron predecessor, which means the heat from the CPU (central processing unit) is more concentrated, said Tom Boger, senior director of product marketing for Apple. The new chip is consuming roughly the same amount of power as the older chip, and a more sophisticated system is needed to remove the heat from the processor die.

[Sinikad]

Bus speeds on the new G5s also got bumped. Apple has the bus speed crown once again.

Not a bad step up really. 25% speed boost, and given the 1.25Ghz FSB its probably going to scale up pretty close to 25%.

Looks like G4 PowerMacs are going to die with no further enhancements though.

As an aside, you can get an 'old' dual G5 2.0Ghz for 1999 refurbed from Apple now.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Sinikad:
Bus speeds on the new G5s also got bumped. Apple has the bus speed crown once again.

Not a bad step up really. 25% speed boost, and given the 1.25Ghz FSB its probably going to scale up pretty close to 25%.

Well, not quite. The G5s are still "limited" by the dual channel DDR400. That's the bottleneck, not the FSB.

[k2director]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
- No Radeon X800 option. WTF? (AGP would be fine. I would not expect PCIe since there are no low end PCIe cards available.)

Lack of the X800 kills me too. Of course, many folks in the PC world are having a hard time getting ahold of the lower end model, much less the high-end, but since the dual 2.5s won't be shipping for another month at least, I was hoping Apple would allow for the option.

I'm going to buy this new dual 2.5 asap, but dread finding out a few months later that there's suddenly an X800 BTO configuration, and that I have to wait MONTHS more for ATI to finally issue a retail edition (ala the 9800 retail card).

[DrJohnL]

What is the basis of the statement that the 1.8 and 2.0 are using the older 130 nm chips? Reading Apple's G5 pages, they repeatedly mention only the 90 nm version, with statements like "Such superior technology developments turbo-charge the G5 processor to speeds of up to 2.5GHz." Are you just assuming that because the clock speeds are the same as before that they chips must be the same? Is it because they do not use the new cooling system? I figured that with the slower clock speed they did not need it, but I have nothing to support that. Just curious if you have inside information, or are just stating assumptions as facts (the latter Apple seems to avoid supplying, which makes me think you are right).

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by DrJohnL:
What is the basis of the statement that the 1.8 and 2.0 are using the older 130 nm chips?

IT World article: New Power Mac uses liquid cooling on high-end model

"The 2.0GHz... comes with dual PowerPC 970 processors, the 0.13-micron version of the G5 processor... The 1.8GHz model also features the 0.13-micron PowerPC 970."

P.S. Welcome to MacNN.

[DrJohnL]

Eug Wanker,

Thanks for the info. If Apple's web site ONLY mentions the 90 nm chips, but they ship computers with the old 130 nm ones, that seems to be deceptive advertising. The Power Mac G5 Tech Overview, dated June 2004, presents the 90 nm version as if it was the only thing they use. I was hoping that they new models would be cooler, and therefore quieter. I expected a bit more of the truth from Apple.

[DrJohnL]

I was hoping that the author of the IT World article had not checked his facts, but alas, a call to Apple this morning confirmed that the 1.8 and 2.0 models use the 130 nm G5 chips. The person I talked to was well aware of this question and that Apple's web site refers only to the 90 nm technology. I changed my order from the dual 2.0 GHz to the 2.5 GHz. Given that I was choosing the ATI 9600 as an option on the 2.0, and the educational discount on the 2.5 is $100 more, the cost to upgrade was $355. That does not seem like a lot to avoid getting stuck with older technology. The smaller die and power management features of the 750FX are just too geeky for me to resist. My 450 MHz G4 Sawtooth has lasted almost five years, and if I do the same with the new one, the difference is just $75 per year!