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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > What's really in the Obama Stimulus Package?

What's really in the Obama Stimulus Package? (Page 3)
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MindFad
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Feb 24, 2009, 05:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Did giving billions to Halliburton represent corruption in the Cheney administration?
That seems to imply that you concede that there is some kind of corruption going on in the world of ACORN, when there clearly isn't, no matter how far out to the deep end of the Kool Aid pool our forum friends swim.

SUP PAGE THREE
     
Buckaroo
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Feb 24, 2009, 05:27 PM
 
Lots and lots of Pork, NOTHING to help the economy.
     
MindFad
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Feb 24, 2009, 07:45 PM
 
I'm curious about might who get credit if the stimulus actually works. Or will it be that "it was getting better anyway" scenario where the stimulus wouldn't have been needed in the first place? Either way, it should be hilarious a year or so from now.
     
ebuddy
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Feb 24, 2009, 08:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by MindFad View Post
Well, it almost worked. Still, pure comedy indeed! Does pointing out all of those traits lessen how perfectly they often apply to a lot of your own arguments?
Seriously? Egadz man you've been at this almost 8 years. Tell ya what, there's a rants and raves forum on Craigslist that might help you cut your teeth.

Next up... I know you are, but what am I.
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
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Feb 24, 2009, 08:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by MindFad View Post
That seems to imply that you concede that there is some kind of corruption going on in the world of ACORN, when there clearly isn't...
What's there to concede? They're suing themselves for crying out loud.
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

Board directors at ACORN -- the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now -- are demanding the organization turn over financial records relating to the embezzlement of nearly $1 million by the brother of ACORN's founder.

OM NOM NOM SAND!
ebuddy
     
stupendousman
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Feb 24, 2009, 09:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by MindFad View Post
OM NOM NOM KOOL AID. It's a shame it's against the rules to call people names on here...
So you admit you broke forum rules when you referred to me as "stupidassman"? Please report yourself to the nearest moderator. Thank you.

....because some of you are just dumb as hell and surely deserve all the mockery and name-calling you get! Unless you're just some masterfully programmed forum bot and not a real person, then I take it back.
     
MindFad
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Feb 24, 2009, 10:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Seriously? Egadz man you've been at this almost 8 years. Tell ya what, there's a rants and raves forum on Craigslist that might help you cut your teeth.

Next up... I know you are, but what am I.
So no actual response then? I was really asking. Or were you describing yourself and your arguments purpose.

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
So you admit you broke forum rules when you referred to me as "stupidassman"? Please report yourself to the nearest moderator. Thank you.

If you missed it, I was secretly hoping for some hilarious forum infraction points from vmarks. I take it back about "almost working"—it totally did; I scored some points tonight. Seeing as how I'm responding right now, it looks like not enough points!

Anyway, I always thought I had a reputation for being flippant and sarcastic in this forum. So while I'm not usually one for name-calling, I thought it was pretty appropriate for you! But I only base that on reading the majority of your posts. And admit it? I didn't realize I was trying to hide it—because yeah, you really are a stupid ass sometimes. Infraction points be damned!

vmarks, do I get more points for clarifying it to stupendousman? After all, he did ask.

I'll stop pestering you guys.

     
Face Ache
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Feb 25, 2009, 12:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
If it weren't for those offering little more than bizarre absolutes, specious logic, mockery, strawmen, and the gallery of hand cymbal-clapping monkeys who encourage them; there would be precious little to debate around here I'm afraid. Lest we forget, they're Progressives™.

Since the wheels fell off your little red free-market war wagon, you don't have a leg or a mixed metaphor to stand on. Watching conservatives criticize Obama's package is like watching arsonists criticizing the fire brigade.

     
ebuddy
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Feb 25, 2009, 06:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by MindFad View Post
So no actual response then? I was really asking. Or were you describing yourself and your arguments purpose.
I responded to the one point you managed to eek out in here MF. Other than that, you seem to be in full-on self destruct mode. Take care okay?
ebuddy
     
stupendousman
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Feb 25, 2009, 06:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by MindFad View Post
If you missed it, I was secretly hoping for some hilarious forum infraction points from vmarks. I take it back about "almost working"—it totally did; I scored some points tonight. Seeing as how I'm responding right now, it looks like not enough points!
I guess everyone should have goals of some sort. Congratulations.

So while I'm not usually one for name-calling, I thought it was pretty appropriate for you! But I only base that on reading the majority of your posts. And admit it? I didn't realize I was trying to hide it—because yeah, you really are a stupid ass sometimes. Infraction points be damned!
I'm more than happy to allow others to judge our contributions here and decide who is acting like the "stupid ass". I'm not the guy with "infraction points" because I lack proper self control.

Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
Since the wheels fell off your little red free-market war wagon, you don't have a leg or a mixed metaphor to stand on. Watching conservatives criticize Obama's package is like watching arsonists criticizing the fire brigade.
Conservatives called out the fire brigade back in 2004. Barney Frank and Maxine Waters insisted there was no fire - not even any smoke and fought us even breaking out the garden hoses. Now Obama is working to move the Pacific Ocean to a town 100 miles away from the fire. Your own metaphors are causing you to wobble a little, I'm afraid.
( Last edited by stupendousman; Feb 25, 2009 at 12:44 PM. )
     
ebuddy
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Feb 25, 2009, 07:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
Since the wheels fell off your little red free-market war wagon, you don't have a leg or a mixed metaphor to stand on. Watching conservatives criticize Obama's package is like watching arsonists criticizing the fire brigade.
Couple of points;
This stimulus combined with the numerous bailouts and subsequent stimulus packages in the offing will make the war wagon look like a moped. This "pay as you slow" scheme just establishes for anyone paying attention that Democrats are much better at being Democrats than the Republicans were.

If the free market is what got us into this mess, why are we engaged in unprecedented spending to resuscitate it? Let the failures of the free market fail. After all, the $165 billion dollar investment in bank bailouts for the country's 8 largest banks have served only to decrease their value by some $418 billion since last fall.

Watching liberals defend unprecedented spending by whining about conservative skepticism over an $800 billion dollar stimulus package makes as much sense as pedophiles complaining about Toys R Us not selling alcohol.
ebuddy
     
Chongo  (op)
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Feb 25, 2009, 10:55 AM
 
If the Big Three CEOs only had Dogbert's cajones
( Last edited by Chongo; Feb 25, 2009 at 03:22 PM. )
     
Scoundrelous
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Feb 25, 2009, 02:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I'm not the guy with "infraction points" because I lack proper self control.
Hey, I was pretty calm and collected when I typed it, thank you very much, if maybe giggling a little at the potential outcome! It's like a soap opera in here; I was just playing a part and having some fun.

Anyway, yes, even answering your inquiry about admitting to typing "stupidassman," accompanied by a brief explanation why I called you a stupid ass (which really didn't need explaining) is enough to get vmarks to drop his Forum Nazi™ hammer. Nazi? Is that kosher for the boards? Am I being offensive now? Has asking if I'm being offensive triggered you being offended?

We need a scoring system. Here's a complicated mock-up I did. Who do I speak to about suggesting it?
     
ebuddy
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Feb 25, 2009, 06:22 PM
 
ebuddy
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Feb 26, 2009, 01:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
but I thought I'd chime in because, much as I like Obama, I'm concerned by this let's-spend-our-way-through-it philosophy to the crisis.
You know I haven't read the thread beyond this comment (always a good start to any post ) but Canada's conservative government has embraced the exact same philosophy.

Now I'm curious to know whether this idea is being universally employed....?

greg
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ebuddy
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Feb 26, 2009, 07:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Did giving billions to Halliburton represent corruption in the Cheney administration?
What "giving billions to Halliburton" are you talking about?

- Are you talking about the misreported cost estimates that were exposed by the Pentagon's auditing agency and the subsequent calls for criminal investigation by the Justice Department?
If yes, I'd ask how it is that the Pentagon and Justice Department were less connected to the Bush Administration than Cheney and Halliburton when this story broke?

- If you're talking about the "no bid" contract that was publicly bid and won in 2001 (prior to the Iraq war for logistical support wherever necessary) I'd say you're misinformed.

- If it's the emergency "no bid" sole-source contract awarded to Halliburton for getting immediate oil supplies back online during action in Iraq, I'd remind you that the independent General Accounting Office deemed the award perfectly legitimate. I'd also ask you who was more prepared to do it? In other words, I'm still waiting for the short list of more qualified companies than the one who's been doing this since WWII? (two years before Cheney was born)

I get the impression that what used to be faux pas; "I know Bush is, but Clinton..." is now fashionable; "I know Obama is, but Bush..." as if corruption is okay now as long as you can find someone else guilty of it.
ebuddy
     
LegendaryPinkOx
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Feb 26, 2009, 09:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
.... as much sense as pedophiles complaining about Toys R Us not selling alcohol.
This thread needs less arguing, and more metaphor.
are you lightfooted?
     
PB2K
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Feb 27, 2009, 05:30 AM
 
{Animated sigs are not allowed.}
     
Chongo  (op)
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Feb 27, 2009, 06:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by PB2K View Post
President Obama's $3.5 trillion budget proposal, the largest in history, presents a dramatic break from policy and a shift in governmental priorities. The administration is attempting to redirect vast sums of money from businesses and wealthier individuals to those with lower incomes and enact ambitious and costly new programs for energy, education and health care.
and it includes 1 TRILLION dollars in tax increases
Political Punch: Obama's Budget: Almost $1 Trillion in New Taxes Over Next 10 yrs, Starting 2011
Inherited?


but remember to keep saying....
     
PB2K
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Feb 27, 2009, 07:22 AM
 
businesses and wealthier people will leave usa ?
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Feb 27, 2009, 08:32 AM
 
...and go to China or India, I suppose?

Why delay the inevitable? In the purely capitalist free-market world you guys like to thunder about, it's inevitably going to happen. The US just can't compete.

greg
Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
     
Wiskedjak
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Feb 27, 2009, 08:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
but remember to keep saying....
There shoulda been a graphic like that for all the times Republicans blamed Clinton during Bush's Presidency.
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Feb 27, 2009, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by PB2K View Post
businesses and wealthier people will leave usa ?
Nope, but a lot more of their money will.


     
fredericklongfellow
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Mar 21, 2009, 03:53 AM
 
I find it amazing that all this discussion has occurred with barely any mention of either Laissez-faire or Keynesian economics!

first of all, you need to understand why depressions occur. When people overspeculate and buy with money they don't have, the economy gets bloated with a false amount of money. If we take out too much of this money because things don't go through, then businesses have to downsize. when businesses downsize this creates an increase in unemployment, which decrease demand which means that businesses have to downsize which creates an increase in unemployment, etc.

there are two methods to stimulate economies in depressions/panics. you can either try trickle down economics or you can try "priming the pump".

In trickle down economics you give tax cuts to big business. This allows them to increase production. An increase in production requires an increase in employment. an increase in employment creates an increase in spending. an increase in spending creates an increase in demand, requiring an increase in production. This is one way to effectively reverse the cycle of a depression.

when you "prime the pump" you start at the bottom. by putting money into the hands of the people they will then buy things, when they buy things it creates an increase in demand, the increase in demand generates an increase in employment, which puts more money into the system creating an increase in demand as people spend again, which generates more employment, etc.


Obama is trying method #2, priming the pump. I remember someone earlier saying that Obama was using the method that failed more often but I would like to remind the readers that it was only dramatic government deficit spending, at the time greater spending than the entire deficit spending of all the other years combined, that finally moved us out of the Great Depression. Therefore, I would do a little more research.

as for whose fault it is.....DOES IT REALLY MATTER? does telling the republicans they did a bad job help the millions of unemployed? nope, sorry. focus on working together instead of tearing each other apart because of political allegiance.
     
ebuddy
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Mar 21, 2009, 10:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by fredericklongfellow View Post
Obama is trying method #2, priming the pump. I remember someone earlier saying that Obama was using the method that failed more often but I would like to remind the readers that it was only dramatic government deficit spending, at the time greater spending than the entire deficit spending of all the other years combined, that finally moved us out of the Great Depression. Therefore, I would do a little more research. As for whose fault it is.....DOES IT REALLY MATTER? does telling the republicans they did a bad job help the millions of unemployed? nope, sorry. focus on working together instead of tearing each other apart because of political allegiance.
I appreciate your call to work together because I too feel that the divisiveness inherent in most of these discussions is more often counter-productive than productive. I also appreciate your input, but you're not the first one to pop in to try to "educate" the poor saps of the PWL. Telling a group of individuals en masse to "do a little more research" is more than patronizing, it is contingent upon when you'd like to begin your research. Concepts like "Keynesian economics" and "Supply-side" economics have become so conflated with one another that both are practically immeasurable. The verbiage has essentially been abandoned by all, but those over 60 or those involved in Economics 101.

Would you like to begin your research with something a little more contemporaneous like the end of Keynesian ideology in the 70's through stagflation? Does your research acknowledge the wealth of academia on FDRs policies found to have perhaps exacerbated and extended the Depression an additional 7-8 years? The fact of the matter is that the war given credit for having pulled us out was not only the result of the rampant spending into military, it was the subsequent industries built from that expenditure at a time when we were the only real industrial global supplier. This is long-term growth, not short-term, targeted, and temporary stimulus as suggested by Obama. Of course, there's nothing temporary about a payout to States to increase their welfare roles. Additionally, our deficits and debts are no longer our own to address, but are now contingent upon the continued investment of those otherwise hostile to our system of governance and other global suppliers in general.

Interestingly, this may in fact be the closest thing to a first real, full-out test of Keynesian principle. The stimulus will act as competition to the private sector which is distasteful politically. However, the hope is that maybe a little inflation now from the bottom-up, will facilitate a multiplier likewise stimulating the private industry. The thing is, I'm hard-pressed in determining how a stimulus rooted at least as much in political purpose as consumer purpose will have the most profound affect on the consumer's well-being enough to stimulate demand. This isn't the first "stimulus rodeo". You'll recall, much of this started under Bush and the merits of it were unquestionably dismal. Of course, many will say this wasn't enough stimulus and in fact that's what they're saying about Obama's stimulus as calls for more stimulus already sit in the offing.

IMO, the lessons learned here is there is absolutely nothing perpetual about growth whether given thrust by an unfettered private sector or an unfettered government payout. It is physically impossible regardless. At some point correction is not only necessary, it is inevitable. Every time a "Keynesian" keynote is given, the market drops a little more and the actual money spent is in vain. By the time the 3 million jobs are created, more will have been lost. It's not like we're not watching it occur before our very eyes.

Screw history and/or "research" as just about everything you're seeing today from the global market, through the number of suppliers, to the amount of domestic stimulus spending is unprecedented and I'm not sure anyone knows what the hell they're talking about. Me and you included.
ebuddy
     
Chongo  (op)
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Mar 21, 2009, 11:13 AM
 
     
fredericklongfellow
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Mar 21, 2009, 12:50 PM
 
thank you very much for your reply, I was building the premise for my analysis on a rather outdated foundation, but I do agree with you on most of your points. However to clarify the issue of FDR, the policy which truly got us out of the great depression was, of course (or at least as far as I know), the lend-lease program which, as you mentioned, succeeded because it allowed for the creation of new industries into a market whose demand was so great. I wasn't referring to the "alphabet" agencies or many of his earlier trial-and-error methods.

My whole reason for posting what I did post is that I found the discussion in this thread needed some discussion of the issue from an economic standpoint. Like you said, I do find the the likelihood of this stimulus bill increasing demand a significant amount very unlikely.

As for not knowing anything about what's really going to happen.... I couldn't agree with you more.

One more thing, sorry if my first post seemed condescending, apologies to all.
     
ebuddy
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Mar 22, 2009, 09:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by fredericklongfellow View Post
My whole reason for posting what I did post is that I found the discussion in this thread needed some discussion of the issue from an economic standpoint. Like you said, I do find the the likelihood of this stimulus bill increasing demand a significant amount very unlikely.
I think you'll find that the discussions here and in other threads related to the "bill" or stimulus package does encompass all aspects of economic views. They're just not using specific lingo.

As for not knowing anything about what's really going to happen.... I couldn't agree with you more.

One more thing, sorry if my first post seemed condescending, apologies to all.
It's all good fredericklongfellow, welcome to the PWL.
ebuddy
     
 
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