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Goodbyes (just in case) (Page 4)
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Spheric Harlot
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May 24, 2011, 06:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
It's not logically possible for Christ to have been born Before Christ was born. Chalk it up to calendar problems over the years.

Why has this conversation taken on the pedantry of a German tax office all of a sudden?
Because you insist upon treating an arbitrarily chosen symbolic date as literal reality (obviously just to **** with people).

Of course, since we know that Jesus was born on December 25, and died on April 1st, it makes perfect sense to insist that the other arbitrary dates are literal truth, as well.

But then, the Rapture began on Saturday.
     
Doofy
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May 24, 2011, 06:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
You mean Jews.
No I don't. I mean Dawkins and the like.

Why do you German folks keep bringing up the Jews at every available opportunity? Is there some kind of history behind that?
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Doofy
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May 24, 2011, 06:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Because you insist upon treating an arbitrarily chosen symbolic date as literal reality (obviously just to **** with people).
No.

You were the one who started this pedantic line of conversation going on about dates. All I said was I reckon the antichrist came before Christ. So it's you who's ****ing with people, no?
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Spheric Harlot
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May 24, 2011, 07:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No I don't. I mean Dawkins and the like.

Why do you German folks keep bringing up the Jews at every available opportunity? Is there some kind of history behind that?
No, it came up in this particular case because there's a history BCE.
     
Doofy
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May 24, 2011, 07:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
No, it came up in this particular case because there's a history BCE.
There's history BC?
Bloody hell! My worldview has been shattered!

I really have absolutely no idea what your point is here, Spher. And I'm pretty sure that you have no idea what my point is. This is maybe why you had yourself banned from the pol lounge?
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Spheric Harlot
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May 24, 2011, 07:18 PM
 
Probably. I should be in bed.

This isn't about political correctness, though.

At least, it shouldn't be.
     
lpkmckenna
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May 24, 2011, 08:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Well, Jesus was born in 7 BCE, so…
The traditional date is 4 BCE, not 7 BCE.

Myself, I think Jesus was born in 6 CE and died 36 CE.

My reasoning is simple: according to Luke, Jesus was born during the Roman census in Judea, which took place in 6 CE. And Jesus was killed shortly after John the Baptist was killed, which Josephus dates to 36 CE.

The traditional date of 4 BCE comes from Matthew, who places Jesus' birth during the reign of Herod the Great. I think Matthew just wanted to link Jesus with Herod, to contrast an evil king with Jesus.
     
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May 24, 2011, 08:54 PM
 
King Herold died in late March or early April 4 BCE, that has been well documented. The Roman census of Judea happened ten years after his death. Always assuming that Mary wasn't pregant for these ten years, I agree with the idea that Herold was most likely used as a convenient, as he was in no position to defend himself, boogeyman to give additional meaning to the birth of Jesus.
     
Spheric Harlot
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May 25, 2011, 02:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
mmmm Family Radio worldwide sure is a classy web site. I guess it was designed just before the last rapture prediction and they haven't seen the need to update it since.
Actually, it pretty much was - they quickly pulled the new site and reinstated the godawful legacy site.

Family Radio's Rapture Website: Before And After [PIC]
     
SpaceMonkey
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May 25, 2011, 09:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
King Herold died in late March or early April 4 BCE, that has been well documented. The Roman census of Judea happened ten years after his death. Always assuming that Mary wasn't pregant for these ten years, I agree with the idea that Herold was most likely used as a convenient, as he was in no position to defend himself, boogeyman to give additional meaning to the birth of Jesus.
My understanding is that most scholars think Jesus was actually born toward the end of Herod's rule, but that the census story is the part that's a load of crap. There's no reason or purpose, historically, why Joseph would have to travel to his ancestral home of Bethlehem to be counted, for example. That's just not how they did it. It's extremely convenient for religious reasons though -- it explains how Jesus, a Galilean, could have been born in Bethlehem, the city of King David. By the informal "rule of inconvenience" (the more inconvenient, religion-wise, a fact is in the gospels, the more likely it is to be true), this should make one doubly suspicious of Luke's census/Bethlehem birth story.
( Last edited by SpaceMonkey; May 25, 2011 at 09:36 AM. )

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SpaceMonkey
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May 25, 2011, 09:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
So what's this selective counter-culture you're talking about?
The kind where everyone has agreed to use AD/BC or CE/BCE more or less out of common convenience so we can refer to specific dates and know that the other person knows exactly what we mean, and you have decided to troll us with your inane objections to it.

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andi*pandi
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May 25, 2011, 10:23 AM
 
We're about halfway through the year 5771.
     
Doofy
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May 25, 2011, 10:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
The kind where everyone has agreed to use AD/BC or CE/BCE more or less out of common convenience so we can refer to specific dates and know that the other person knows exactly what we mean, and you have decided to troll us with your inane objections to it.
I'm not trolling with inane objections.
I'm mirroring the German tax office up there - I thought we were getting all pedantic and stuff, thought we were having fun with that and being miserable, boring f**kers. I was just joining in with you guys there.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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Chongo
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May 25, 2011, 11:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
We're about halfway through the year 5771.
That leaves 229 years till the day of rest if you are of the 1 day=1000 years school.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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May 25, 2011, 11:25 AM
 
Is that also the "earth is 5000 years old" school? I have trouble keeping track of these different educational institutions....
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Phileas
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May 25, 2011, 11:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I'm not trolling with inane objections.
I'm mirroring the German tax office up there - I thought we were getting all pedantic and stuff, thought we were having fun with that and being miserable, boring f**kers. I was just joining in with you guys there.
Of course you need to get pedantic about this stuff. Otherwise you end up blindly accepting stuff that was written for political and religious reasons - like King Herold being alive during the Roman census. Kind of important, those things.
     
subego
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May 25, 2011, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
This is maybe why you had yourself banned from the pol lounge?
Huh?
     
Chongo
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May 25, 2011, 11:53 AM
 
Camping is not the only one getting his dates wrong

President Obama Has No Idea What Year It Is -- Daily Intel
     
The Final Dakar
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May 25, 2011, 11:53 AM
 
I was wondering who was going to post that.
     
Spheric Harlot
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May 25, 2011, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Huh?
I had myself voluntarily banned around the time it became obvious that the left was right about the Iraq war - and the right was becoming increasingly desperate (AFAIK, moki never did move to impeach Bush when no WMD turned up, and olepigeon's promised secret evidence never turned up, either. ).

My life has been a calmer, happier place since then.
     
Shaddim
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May 25, 2011, 02:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I was wondering who was going to post that.
For serious, what's 3 years between friends?
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SpaceMonkey
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May 25, 2011, 02:21 PM
 
He was just trying to do them a favor. Like baseball rookie cards, pre-election Obama signatures are much more valuable.

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andi*pandi
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May 25, 2011, 02:34 PM
 
Pfft, photoshop.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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May 25, 2011, 03:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I had myself voluntarily banned around the time it became obvious that the left was right about the Iraq war - and the right was becoming increasingly desperate (AFAIK, moki never did move to impeach Bush when no WMD turned up, and olepigeon's promised secret evidence never turned up, either. ).

My life has been a calmer, happier place since then.
Something I've thought about for some time now. I may join you comrade.
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lpkmckenna
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May 25, 2011, 04:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
My understanding is that most scholars think Jesus was actually born toward the end of Herod's rule, but that the census story is the part that's a load of crap. There's no reason or purpose, historically, why Joseph would have to travel to his ancestral home of Bethlehem to be counted, for example. That's just not how they did it. It's extremely convenient for religious reasons though -- it explains how Jesus, a Galilean, could have been born in Bethlehem, the city of King David. By the informal "rule of inconvenience" (the more inconvenient, religion-wise, a fact is in the gospels, the more likely it is to be true), this should make one doubly suspicious of Luke's census/Bethlehem birth story.
I don't think the part about Joseph and Mary travelling to Bethlehem is historical. But I think the "census dating" is better than the "Herod dating" because it is supported by two other facts: Mark says Jesus was 30 years old when he began his public ministry, and Josephus dates John the Baptist's death to 36 CE. These three independently sourced dates line up very well. But if Jesus was born in 4 BCE, that makes him 40 years old at the beginning of his ministry, so either Mark is wrong or Josephus is wrong. Luke's census dating works well with the other two, but Matthew's Herod dating does not.
     
Lateralus
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May 25, 2011, 05:15 PM
 
I like chicken
I like liver
Meow Mix, Meow Mix
Please de-liv-er
     
turtle777
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May 25, 2011, 05:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
The kind where everyone has agreed to use AD/BC or CE/BCE more or less out of common convenience
I prefer AC/DC, that way, we're all on the same page :-)

-t
     
Chongo
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May 25, 2011, 05:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
Looks like no meat. Is that non rennet cheese? if so...
     
Lateralus
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May 25, 2011, 05:48 PM
 
I'm plenty carnivorous, but my favorite gourmet pizzas tend to be vegetarian for some reason.

Anybody ever had the gourmet vegetarian from Papa Murphy's Take-n-Bake? It will make you forget about anything wrong with your life.
I like chicken
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Meow Mix, Meow Mix
Please de-liv-er
     
SpaceMonkey
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May 25, 2011, 05:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I don't think the part about Joseph and Mary travelling to Bethlehem is historical. But I think the "census dating" is better than the "Herod dating" because it is supported by two other facts: Mark says Jesus was 30 years old when he began his public ministry, and Josephus dates John the Baptist's death to 36 CE. These three independently sourced dates line up very well. But if Jesus was born in 4 BCE, that makes him 40 years old at the beginning of his ministry, so either Mark is wrong or Josephus is wrong. Luke's census dating works well with the other two, but Matthew's Herod dating does not.
A few things:

1. The note about Jesus' age when he began his ministry is in Luke (3:23), not Mark, so it's not an independent data point. And it's not intended to be so precise: "And Jesus himself, when he began [to teach], was about thirty years of age." So when dating this stuff based on that reference, figure a 2-3 year swing in either direction, if you want to be conservative. (Luke is at least internally consistent, since if you follow the references to the beginning of John the Baptists' ministry you get ~28 AD, or about when the other timeline says Jesus started. Hmmmmmm )

2. The other data point that disputes the Luke timeline is in John, which indicates that Jesus visited the Temple of Jerusalem around the beginning of his ministry, when the Temple had been under development for 46 years. Going by references in Josephus' writings, that puts it ~28 AD, and more in line with the "Herod" dating of his birth.

3. From my understanding, the 36 CE figure for John's execution according to Josephus may be an outer limit, and not necessarily the actual date of his death. My understanding is that Josephus relates that some Jews blamed a military defeat that Herod the Tetrarch suffered (which we know occurred in 36 CE) on his execution of John the Baptist. It's possible the execution occurred some time earlier.
( Last edited by SpaceMonkey; May 25, 2011 at 06:05 PM. )

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Doofy
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May 25, 2011, 06:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
I'm plenty carnivorous, but my favorite gourmet pizzas tend to be vegetarian for some reason.
The reason for this is the "all carnivores are bastards" effect... ...as demonstrated earlier today at my local supermarket - all the veggie pizza had been sold and there was only dead flesh left... because you're all bastards who would deny us lovely veggie peeps our basic food requirements by buying our food first when you could have instead bought the half-zillion meat feasts sitting on the next shelf. Happens all the time everywhere.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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Oisín
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May 25, 2011, 06:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
The reason for this is the "all carnivores are bastards" effect... ...as demonstrated earlier today at my local supermarket - all the veggie pizza had been sold and there was only dead flesh left... because you're all bastards who would deny us lovely veggie peeps our basic food requirements by buying our food first when you could have instead bought the half-zillion meat feasts sitting on the next shelf. Happens all the time everywhere.
Wait, let me get this straight …

Doofy goes to a supermarket to buy pizza?!?

What is the world coming to?!
     
Doofy
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May 25, 2011, 07:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
Wait, let me get this straight …

Doofy goes to a supermarket to buy pizza?!?
Actually, I send the maid. I was just repeating what she reported - it's a regular thing. Bastards.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Lateralus
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May 25, 2011, 07:13 PM
 
I actually feel bad now. How are you supposed to maintain a gaunt complexion if I eat your meatless delights...
I like chicken
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Please de-liv-er
     
brassplayersrock²
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May 25, 2011, 09:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
     
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May 25, 2011, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² View Post
DAMMIT! Now I have that stupid song stuck in my head.
     
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May 25, 2011, 10:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
if I eat your meatless delights...
...fap?
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subego
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May 25, 2011, 11:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Actually, I send the maid. I was just repeating what she reported - it's a regular thing. Bastards.
As someone who has many times been in charge of ordering pizza for a large crew, I can vouch for this.

Everyone always asks for stupid crap on their pizza, and the straight cheese is what gets finished first.

Always.
     
lpkmckenna
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May 25, 2011, 11:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
1. The note about Jesus' age when he began his ministry is in Luke (3:23), not Mark, so it's not an independent data point.
Hey, you're right!
(Luke is at least internally consistent, since if you follow the references to the beginning of John the Baptists' ministry you get ~28 AD, or about when the other timeline says Jesus started. Hmmmmmm )
I don't see how you're getting this conclusion.

2. The other data point that disputes the Luke timeline is in John, which indicates that Jesus visited the Temple of Jerusalem around the beginning of his ministry, when the Temple had been under development for 46 years. Going by references in Josephus' writings, that puts it ~28 AD, and more in line with the "Herod" dating of his birth.
I think John's timeline is very suspect, simply because his Jesus is so much more aggressive against the establishment, openly preaches his equivalence with God, attacks the temple at the beginning of his ministry, and yet still manages to avoid any punishment for 3+ years. I think John has a lot to tell us about the historical Jesus, but accurate timelines aren't one of them.

Contrast that with Mark and Luke, where Jesus attacks the temple and is dead a week later, and in Acts, the disciples are whipped and/or killed very shortly after openly preaching the resurrection. I think Mark and Luke present a more believable timeline for how quickly any dissident voices were squashed at that time.

I will, however, ponder this 46 years line, because I really hadn't noticed it until you pointed it out.

3. From my understanding, the 36 CE figure for John's execution according to Josephus may be an outer limit, and not necessarily the actual date of his death. My understanding is that Josephus relates that some Jews blamed a military defeat that Herod the Tetrarch suffered (which we know occurred in 36 CE) on his execution of John the Baptist. It's possible the execution occurred some time earlier.
Yeah, it could be years between the execution and the military defeat, but Josephus doesn't say it, and it sounds like heavily padding the dates on the back end so to match the 4 BCE theory.

Plus, it would require that Aretas waited for years before attacking as retribution for rejecting his daughter and marrying Herodias. In order for the gospel accounts to match, John the Baptist had to criticize after the marriage to Herodias but before Aretas attacks. I just can't believe that John could be killed around 28 CE after condemning the marriage to Herodias, but Aretas doesn't attack until 36 CE.
     
Lateralus
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May 26, 2011, 12:07 AM
 


Apparently this pizza is vegan, which confuses me...
I like chicken
I like liver
Meow Mix, Meow Mix
Please de-liv-er
     
brassplayersrock²
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May 26, 2011, 12:08 AM
 
mmmmm, Memphis style pizza at its best.

edit:
sneaky text add in.

I've had vegan "meat" pizzas before. Very tasty actually. You wouldn't know it wasn't the real deal if you got the good products. they usually match the taste and texture of meat pretty well. What they use to make the meat flavor, I have no idea.
     
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May 26, 2011, 12:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post


Apparently this pizza is vegan, which confuses me...
It's like Kosher Krab, Soy sausage, pepperoni and fake cheese.
     
subego
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May 26, 2011, 12:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I had myself voluntarily banned around the time it became obvious that the left was right about the Iraq war - and the right was becoming increasingly desperate (AFAIK, moki never did move to impeach Bush when no WMD turned up, and olepigeon's promised secret evidence never turned up, either. ).

My life has been a calmer, happier place since then.
Ahh. Thanks for the clarification.
     
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May 26, 2011, 03:28 AM
 
"Were launching it as a meat substitute. We call it Make Believe Beef. We're developing a whole range, Sham Ham, Proxy Mutton, Never Chicken, Disingenuous Ox".
"Mmm, palatable I suppose, but why replace meat in the first place? Meat's lovely"
"You are of course entitled to your backward opinions, BUT WHAT IF ALL THE CHICKENS DRIED UP!"
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May 26, 2011, 08:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
"Were launching it as a meat substitute. We call it Make Believe Beef. We're developing a whole range, Sham Ham, Proxy Mutton, Never Chicken, Disingenuous Ox".
"Mmm, palatable I suppose, but why replace meat in the first place? Meat's lovely"
"You are of course entitled to your backward opinions, BUT WHAT IF ALL THE CHICKENS DRIED UP!"
So sad that they canceled that show so early ...
     
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May 26, 2011, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
"Were launching it as a meat substitute. We call it Make Believe Beef. We're developing a whole range, Sham Ham, Proxy Mutton, Never Chicken, Disingenuous Ox".
"Mmm, palatable I suppose, but why replace meat in the first place? Meat's lovely"
"You are of course entitled to your backward opinions, BUT WHAT IF ALL THE CHICKENS DRIED UP!"
"Today, it is my honor and my job to unveil...Por-eef! It's a new kind of meat. It's got bite of beef with the smoky texture of pork... hence forth.. Por-eef!"

"Is it time for a free sample yet?"

"Yes, but before I offer you a free sample I should ask, are there any federal agents here today at all? Okay, well, then I'll just go for it! Now, please understand that special care was taken in developing this unique hybrid. Once upon a time we took a cow, and a pig...that were only mildly drugged. We put them together in a cage and forced them to do what eventually became natural."

"Excuse me! Aren't you playing God?!"

"Ma'am, I think of it more as playing cupid."

YouTube - ‪Kids In The Hall - POR-EEF‬‏

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May 26, 2011, 10:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
So sad that they canceled that show so early ...
Blimey!! Someone caught the reference.
Coming to TV in the UK at some point I believe.
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May 26, 2011, 11:14 AM
 
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
 
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