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subego
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Feb 17, 2016, 11:38 AM
 
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 17, 2016, 11:50 AM
 
So, I had a cynical realization this morning: what if this isn't about privacy and is about not wanting to have to provide manpower/help every time one of their 70 million iPhones gets used in a crime?
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 17, 2016, 11:56 AM
 
I think they'd be able to bill them for it.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 17, 2016, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think they'd be able to bill them for it.
I wonder if it'd come anywhere near fair market value. Or if it'd factor in the cost of having to manage such a division.
     
andi*pandi
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Feb 17, 2016, 01:04 PM
 
If that division becomes more than 5 people, it becomes very hard to keep the backdoor software out of the wild, where it can roam in the dark web and be used by criminals.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 17, 2016, 01:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I wonder if it'd come anywhere near fair market value. Or if it'd factor in the cost of having to manage such a division.
My conjecture is they wouldn't make a profit off it, but could get enough to be in the break-even range.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 17, 2016, 01:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My conjecture is they wouldn't make a profit off it, but could get enough to be in the break-even range.
That'd be fair though annoying.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 17, 2016, 01:49 PM
 
Oh... I'm also not counting attorney fees from negotiating price with the Feds. Apple's out of luck with that.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 17, 2016, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Oh... I'm also not counting attorney fees from negotiating price with the Feds. Apple's out of luck with that.
As far as I concerned that's paying up front now so they don't have to do this forever. A good trade.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 17, 2016, 02:50 PM
 
Those are different attorneys. I'm taking about the ones they pay to squeeze compensation out of the Feds if Apple needs to hack phones.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 17, 2016, 03:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Those are different attorneys. I'm taking about the ones they pay to squeeze compensation out of the Feds if Apple needs to hack phones.
Just more fuel to the the situation would suck for Apple if they went with it.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 17, 2016, 03:31 PM
 
Which is why I mentioned it.
     
ghporter
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Feb 17, 2016, 06:00 PM
 
If the tool the Feds want is created, that genie is out of the bottle and there's no way to get it back in. Ever. Goodby to any privacy with an Apple device (court orders not withstanding). Cooperating with them on this could potentially destroy Apple. I'd say no too.

Let 'em have NSA take the phone apart and dig into it. Flash memory should survive a careful dissection, and then NSA can retrieve whatever is there without any major risks. It'll take them a while though, which would be good news for the user community. Of course NSA would likely say no, because while there may be a law enforcement benefit from whatever's in that phone, there's probably no national security benefit to be had. (My opinion, not based on any insider insight...)

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Chongo
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Feb 17, 2016, 06:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
If the tool the Feds want is created, that genie is out of the bottle and there's no way to get it back in. Ever. Goodby to any privacy with an Apple device (court orders not withstanding). Cooperating with them on this could potentially destroy Apple. I'd say no too.

Let 'em have NSA take the phone apart and dig into it. Flash memory should survive a careful dissection, and then NSA can retrieve whatever is there without any major risks. It'll take them a while though, which would be good news for the user community. Of course NSA would likely say no, because while there may be a law enforcement benefit from whatever's in that phone, there's probably no national security benefit to be had. (My opinion, not based on any insider insight...)
Could be Apple has the ability already, but doesn't want anyone to know.


Here is an interesting thought. If the dead suspects had handlers, why didn't the log into "find my iPhone" and remotely wipe they phone when they had the chance?
     
Chongo
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Feb 18, 2016, 08:32 AM
 
Cross posting:
This might have more to do with protecting the ME market.
Apple Unlocked iPhones for the Feds 70 Times Before - The Daily Beast
( Last edited by Chongo; Feb 18, 2016 at 11:24 AM. )
     
starman
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Feb 18, 2016, 01:50 PM
 
Those were iOS 7 phones.

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Doc HM
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Feb 19, 2016, 07:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Let 'em have NSA take the phone apart and dig into it. Flash memory should survive a careful dissection, and then NSA can retrieve whatever is there without any major risks. It'll take them a while though, which would be good news for the user community. Of course NSA would likely say no, because while there may be a law enforcement benefit from whatever's in that phone, there's probably no national security benefit to be had. (My opinion, not based on any insider insight...)
As I understand it the encryption on iPhone is whole disk type that is unlocked by your passcode so direct access to the flash memory wouldn't help as all the data is encrypted within the disk.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
Laminar
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Feb 19, 2016, 10:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Cross posting:
This might have more to do with protecting the ME market.
Apple Unlocked iPhones for the Feds 70 Times Before - The Daily Beast
No, Apple Has Not Unlocked 70 iPhones For Law Enforcement | TechCrunch
     
Chongo
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Feb 19, 2016, 02:13 PM
 
So, they did not unlock the phones, but extracted the data while still locked.
It has not unlocked these iPhones — it has extracted data that was accessible while they were still locked. The process for doing this is laid out in its white paper for law enforcement. Here’s the language:
     
Chongo
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Feb 19, 2016, 02:24 PM
 
     
Laminar
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Feb 19, 2016, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
So, they did not unlock the phones, but extracted the data while still locked.
Right, they were able to get at some unencrypted data while the phone was still locked. Post-iOS 7 this method is not possible anymore.
     
iMOTOR
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Feb 20, 2016, 02:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So, I had a cynical realization this morning: what if this isn't about privacy and is about not wanting to have to provide manpower/help every time one of their 70 million iPhones gets used in a crime?
Verizon and AT&T are raking it in responding to law enforcement requests for phone records.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 20, 2016, 08:09 AM
 
That's specifically what gave me the idea Apple could charge for it.
     
ghporter
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Feb 20, 2016, 09:36 PM
 
If NSA can obtain the contents of the flash memory of that phone, they can dedicate as much of their resources as they want to breaking the encryption. One thing that's kept the FBI from doing more with the phone is the fear that it's set to self-wipe after 10 bad PIN entries, and wiped is pretty much final.

On Chongo's question: does an iPhone "say" it's been wiped by Find My iPhone, and if so, how? If it doesn't indicate that it's been wiped remotely, it's possible that the Feds have a useless piece of hardware on their hands...

And whether or not Apple does have the ability right now to crack iPhone encryption, I do not trust that ANY other entity can safely prevent such a tool from being disclosed.

To be honest, the only way I can think of for Apple to be able to "safely" (for the user community) comply with the FBI's demands is if they redesign the encryption system (probably from the ground up) and issue a patch BEFORE they crack the shooter's phone.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Chongo
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Feb 20, 2016, 11:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post

On Chongo's question: does an iPhone "say" it's been wiped by Find My iPhone, and if so, how? If it doesn't indicate that it's been wiped remotely, it's possible that the Feds have a useless piece of hardware on their hands....
It doesn't say if the phone has been erased, it gives the location and the option for lost mode and erase.
That wasn't my question. IF they had handlers, whoever it was could have been given access to find my iPhone and erased the phone. This may not be the case since this phone is a San Bernardino county phone, correct?.
     
   
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