[LightWaver-67]

Yeah... I know.

This 'type' of question gets asked all the time, and normally I am one of the first people to say "Just do it, already..."

But since the shoe is on the other foot, I can now sympathise with those who have come before me.

I have scoured the rumor site looking for info for any upcoming revisions to the PMG5 towers and I'm coming up short. I cannot seem to find any juicy rumors about speed bumps or case modifications. Why do I care...? I am in the market for a new machine.

I think I can hear all the collective *sighs* from all of you reading this.

I know none of you have a magic crystal ball, but my head is spinning on the debate between buying now, and waiting until after MWSF in January.

It appears to me that they are stalling-out on processor speed bumps and it is about a month-away until MWSF. I can't imagine that even if they DO announce a new higher-end model, that it's gonna be up to the 3Ghz mark yet.

BUT...

There is the ever prevailing response from people: "What are you, crazy...? Buying a new Mac just BEFORE a Macworld Expo...? You KNOW they always release something which will either: (a) allow you to get a BETTER machine or (b) reduce the price on the one you would have bought."

So, if any of you have any links to any rumor articles regarding any PMG5 releases, please feel free to post them for me. I'm itching to land a new G5, but don't wanna sit & wait another month, only to find nothing has changed and I could have been using a new G% for the past month.

Thanks...

...and to those to whom I've potentially given a glib response in the past regarding new hardware purchases close to any Macwolrd... my apologies, now that I see it from this side of the fence.

[reader50]

IBM certainly has more chips coming in the (secret) roadmap, but IBM and Apple have been better than usual at keeping info to a minimum. Nothing concrete has leaked in the rumor sites that I check.

The 970MP gets talked about, and is most likely a real product. Reason: with everyone having GHz problems, AMD has dual-core chips ready to ship within months. Intel has dual-cores in their roadmap, but their schedule still seems to be in flux. In other words, the competitors are definitely going to dual-cores, so IBM will be left behind if they don't have a part in development. IBM doesn't seem the type to be left behind, especially when they are pushing a Power-everywhere strategy.

The Power5 is a shipping dual-core product for servers and mainframes. A desktop variant (the 980?) would be an awesome chip. Haven't heard squat on it lately. Nor on the Xstation, a supposed (quad-core?) workstation that Apple has (possibly) toyed with.

So, not a real answer to your question. But your post was one of the best-written ones I've read in some time, and it demanded an answer. Congratulations.

Personally, I'm waiting for PCIe, a significant upgrade to the standard graphics cards, and a significant new CPU configuration. But I can afford to wait, I only "need" the new system for future games at this point. Oh, and bragging rights of course. Both of those can wait.

[LightWaver-67]

Thanks for the reply.

I "think" I'm leaning toward holding-off until there's SOME new release... be it MWSF'05 or something soon after. I figured it's been a while since the last speed-bump... there's BOUND to be some sort of new product coming soon, and I think I'd rather wait until it arrives and take advantage of timing.

I mean, I know (we ALL know) that there's ALWAYS something cool around the corner... I think I've just seen enough testimony over the years where people regretted not waiting that extra 2-weeks or month... but I'd RATHER make my purchase in conjunction with SOME sort of release so as to minimize (hopefully) my purchase becoming obsolete sooner than later.

Thanks again for your reply and for the kind words.

Peace.

[Leonard]

Originally posted by LightWaver-67:
There is the ever prevailing response from people: "What are you, crazy...? Buying a new Mac just BEFORE a Macworld Expo...? You KNOW they always release something which will either: (a) allow you to get a BETTER machine or (b) reduce the price on the one you would have bought."

In the past I would have said that. Today I wouldn't. Why? Apple didn't modify the PMG5 at last MWSF - we will never really know if there was a delay and what caused it. In fact it's been a few years since Apple announced a new PM at MWSF. The last few years the PM was announced in Feb.

The only machines that I see a good chance of getting updates at or around MWSF are the Xserve and the Powerbook.

But other than the few processor rumors that reader50 mentions, I haven't seen much either.

[LightWaver-67]

At the risk of turning my own request for input into useless rhetoric...

My big fear is that this will be "that time" that defies previous experience. Murphy's law. I hear exactly what you're saying. I am also realizing that no matter WHICH path you choose and which one some of you offer-up as a solution, I will most-likely sit here and poke-holes in your theory.

I know... I know... but at least I'm HONEST about it. Heheheh...

I guess when it's all said & done, there really is no reply that any of you can give me to put my mind at ease, unless you are Phil Shiller or Steve Jobs.

Having said that, thanks for your replies, and to others, no need replying. let the thread die, because I fear I will keep fueling both sides of the argument for no good reason.

Thanks.

[Superchicken]

I'd say right around Valentine's day we'll see new PMs. Hey did anyone ever notice that when abbreviating Power Mac, and then making it plural it becomes that nasty time of the month?

Anyway I'd say we'll hit 2.7Ghz by Febuary.

[djohnson]

200Mhz increase? Not likely. My guess is 3Ghz or higher. Sometimes no news is good news!

[ideasculptor]

I can GUARANTEE that apple will announce some new PM product that blows your socks off sometime in the next 2 months. How do I know this?

Cause I just ordered a new 2x2.5

--sam

[Cadaver]

Originally posted by ideasculptor:
I can GUARANTEE that apple will announce some new PM product that blows your socks off sometime in the next 2 months. How do I know this?

Cause I just ordered a new 2x2.5

--sam

There you go. Proof positive.

Its usually me that this happens to...

[Commodus]

My guess? February or March. Far, far too many people set themselves up for a disappointment and predict PowerMac launches in January that aren't feasible. The 970GX processor probably won't be ready to ship in mass quantities in January, and Apple hasn't made it a habit of announcing PowerMac launches at the expo for awhile (usually because they're speed bumps).

When Apple does launch new PowerMacs, they'll be at 3 GHz unless there's a very serious complication. It would be almost comical to come within 200 MHz of the mark and make people wait several more months to finally reach the goal.

[iDaver]

I think what Apple did at previous expos is irrelevant. Also, I think any suggestion that Apple would not release upgrades if they had 2.7Ghz chips, just because they want to wait for the magic 3.0 is silly. Upgrades will come when parts are available. I think it has nothing to do with expo schedules or round numbers.

Since the 2.5 Ghz chips are just finally shipping in quantity, I doubt we'll see a Power Mac speed bump until spring unless it's only for the lower end. I'm hoping some other kind of upgrades will be made in the meantime. More memory, bigger hard drives, better graphics, and price drops would all be nice to maintain interest until spring.

[Cadaver]

Originally posted by iDaver:
Upgrades will come when parts are available.

Upgrades come when its cost-effective for Apple to offer them at the same or lesser price and still make the same profit.

[LightWaver-67]

Why do I do this to myself... WHY?

Why must I read the dang rumor sites...? Now they are talking about 3Ghz by mid-year 2005 and 3.5Ghz not too far after.

Man... it's never easy trying to live on the cutting... or even BLEEDING edge of technology... but I just don't know what to do with myself now.



Even if I splurge on a dual 2.5Ghz... a machine that will be almost 30% faster will be around in less than a year. UGH! I hate knowing what's coming down the pike.

Sorry for the rant... we now return you to things that REALLY matter... LIFE!

[GoGoReggieXPowars]

Do you use the Mac for business? It's always best to sometime just after the start of the New Year to maximize your cost deductions.

[macaddict0001]

macworld or april is when it will likely be updated, gee macworlds gonna be ful this year, powerbook and emac for sure, probably exserve, possibly powermac.

[jamil5454]

If you think about it, it doesn't really matter as long as you buy something at the price point you need right now. I wouldn't wait more than a month to buy an affordable machine that fits my needs - no matter what's coming out next.

[LightWaver-67]

I am almost sold on that logic, with the exception that it's been a bit too-long since the last speed bump... I may just wait until whatever the next speed bump is and order THEN, that way, I'm on the leading knife-edge... I am afraid to order today or this weekend. I really need to see SOME sort of PowerMac release before purchasing... even if it is just that they made a minor case modification.



Thanks for tolerating my inability to make a decision.

[jcadam]

Originally posted by iDaver:
I think what Apple did at previous expos is irrelevant. Also, I think any suggestion that Apple would not release upgrades if they had 2.7Ghz chips, just because they want to wait for the magic 3.0 is silly. Upgrades will come when parts are available. I think it has nothing to do with expo schedules or round numbers.

Since the 2.5 Ghz chips are just finally shipping in quantity, I doubt we'll see a Power Mac speed bump until spring unless it's only for the lower end. I'm hoping some other kind of upgrades will be made in the meantime. More memory, bigger hard drives, better graphics, and price drops would all be nice to maintain interest until spring.

We are finally reaching the limits of what current semiconductor technology can provide in terms of raw clock speed. The days of massive MHz gains are gone. Even Intel realizes this (as the Pentium 4 is running out of steam). The current philosophy is to pack more features onto the CPU to increase performance, parallelism (multi-core, mutli-processor, etc.), and the move to 64 bit (processor can work on larger chunks of data at a time).

Having said that, simple speed bumps are not that interesting. What I would like to see in the next update (not that it matters to me, since i have just bought a G5):

1. PCI-Express: probably the most difficult to implement, since Apple will need to maintain legacy support by keeping some PCI/PCI-X slots, and the current 'expansion card' compartment in the G5 tower ain't that big.... (I would suggest two PCI 16x slots, to allow for the possibility of SLI, and two PCI/PCI-X slots).

2. DDR2 - Not a huge advance over current mainstream DDR memory technology, but the next evolutionary step and will help Apple to keep faster G5s fed.

3. More video card choices. Give us a decent midrange card!! (Radeon X600, GeForce 6600GT, etc.). And retire the freaking FX 5200 already.

Yea, but with those first two things the Powermac can continue to be cutting-edge.

[power142]

I agree with many in that I don't think there will be a speed bump before 2Q05, and then shipping ???, and this isn't because of what I have under my desk....

One thing to keep in mind is that even if Apple were to announce a 3.0DP at Macworld, it wouldn't be shipping before the end of March anyhow, and is the extra 20% (at best) really worth waiting the extra 3 months for? Personally, I'd be more inclined to save the money and get the 2.5DP once the 3.0DP is announced

[macaddict0001]

I actually think that the 5200 ultra is a great card for the powermac because a lot of people don't need a powerful card and you can always upgrade it if you want.

[Madrag]

I feel the same thing as LightWaver-67 (BTW I also thaught the first post was very well written!)

I also plan to get a 2xG5, but am waiting, (and waiting, and waiting...)
and I doubt the expo will change anything...

But since I'm already waiting, I might just do it until there is a reason to purchase the G5 (either a price drop, or somekind of revision)

So, I suggest that you wait.

Good luck to us all (G5 'almost' owners)

[MrSundberg]

I would suggest two PCI 16x slots, to allow for the possibility of SLI[/B]

You don't need two PCI-e x16 slots for that though, you could just put both GPU's on a single card instead . <wishing>And make shure that enough space is provied for it to be cooled properly, without loosing any of the expansion slots.</wishing>

[NordicMan]

Here are some musings from one amateur observer.

One thing that will need to be changed is the location of the slots on the motherboard, as the 6800 cards, and the Radeon 256MB card crowd out the next quickest slot. ATI says there will be an announcement in the first quarter of 05 re its newest graphics card. That slot which is now crowded would be useful for those who purchase one of the video capture cards which have come out only in the past year, and use PCI X. Can't leave those makers behind, when you trying to cater to them. While doing that, a change to the ddr2 RAm would be in order. So there will likely be a redesign, when..? Would this necessitate a larger case, or a different case?

You would think that it will be a little while, since the 2.5 just started really shipping.

I hope that as one poster has been pushing for, that when(if) Apple goes to the dual core, that there will be a 4 G5 PowerMac. Even if most people do not use it, it would be good for Apple to really provide a workstation for high end users. Since Apple has been touting the use of the G5, whether XServe in numbers, or PowerMac in science use, it would behoove Apple to go after this. There are labs which can use this now, meaning more potent individual G5 workstations. They do not have to wait for someone else.

Rather than letting a linux G5 maker obtain this market, it would be a flagship model for Apple.

Can Photoshop use a 4 G5 arrangement?

[kremmit]

Will it have wireless firewire yet?

[sheer]

I disagree with any move to DDR2. Look at Pentium chipsets if you want a reason NOT to move as performance has been lacklustre at best - it's not brought about the gains Intel were hoping for. I'd say DDR2 is a good year away from being mainstream in the PC world, and would hope Apple feel the same way about it. A better move would be faster DDR - PC4000 (DDR500) and faster is readily available and I would much rather see a move in that direction.

[jcadam]

Originally posted by sheer:
I disagree with any move to DDR2. Look at Pentium chipsets if you want a reason NOT to move as performance has been lacklustre at best - it's not brought about the gains Intel were hoping for. I'd say DDR2 is a good year away from being mainstream in the PC world, and would hope Apple feel the same way about it. A better move would be faster DDR - PC4000 (DDR500) and faster is readily available and I would much rather see a move in that direction.

I am curious why DDR2 is the same width as DDR (64-bit). I mean, what the heck are they using all of those extra pins for (240 vs. 184)??

128-bit wide memory would have eliminated the need for dual channel (and memory being installed in matched pairs)! Well, at least until we wanted 256-bit wide memory busses.

Oh well, it's currently available in DDR533 and DDR667 speeds. The switch to DDR2 at some point is an inevitability. Why not do it now? The PowerMac is not a 'mainstream' machine anyway (Ok, keep DDR in the low end models with the emasculated motherboards).

[NordicMan]

Well, I think that Crucial is selling the PC4000 ram for G5 Macs now, so there must be a reason for that. When I sought them out about ram for my dual 2Ghz(the 3200 compared to what they call Ballistix ram, which also is meant for Macs, someone's Macs), and was curious about the use for the faster ram, they only would say that the PC3200 is what they would recommend. So at some point, it must be coming along for us, the quicker ddr that is.

[Mr. Blur]

remember last year. rumours were coming fast and furious about new powermacs every week it seemed from mwsf all the way until the were finally announced - in *june.* so, don't count on anything the rumour sites say.

[MrForgetable]

and the first dual 2.5 didn't ship until when???

[LightWaver-67]

Yeah... I "think" I've made my final(?) decision...

I am purchasing a dual 2.5Ghz PM with a few extra bells-n-whistles... but best of all, I am gonna get myself...

DUAL 30" Flat Cinema Displays... yep, you read it right... TWO of those bad-boys.

My current setup uses three (3) CRT displays, two of them at 1600 x 1200, and I keep a LOT of apps open 24/7 for info and communication. I do not want to move-backwards on screen real-estate. Two of the flat 23" displays would be slightly LESS than current desktop space, so the only logical and aestheticaly pleasing choice is dual 30" displays.

I believe I am going to wait (just for the sake of it) until after the MWSF keynote to place my order JUST IN CASE they pull-out a surprise, but I want to wait until after Jan1st now ANYHOW to defer the cost of the machine on NEXT year's taxes, not this year's.

Thanks for all of your collective input. It has been greatly appreciated.

[power142]

LOL!

Good luck, and enjoy your new workstation - whenever you get it

[eddiecatflap]

reader50 is a wise man

until pci-e comes onto the pmac, you'd be mad to buy imho

this is gonna revolutionise mac in/out and give gaming a massive kick up the a**

[jamil5454]

The 30" display is orgasmic. I went to the Apple store yesterday (Houston Galleria) for the first time in my life (!) and got to use a DP 2.5 with the 30" beast. Man did the Dock look so small...

It's nice having four side-by-side safari windows open for some efficient browsing. Also, when I was using GarageBand and it crapped out on me (Spinning beachball), I could still operate without a hitch, using the second processor to do everything. With GarageBand stuck in forever mode, I was still browsing sites and listening to music like no one's business. Before this, the best computer I've owned/operated was an AthlonXP 1800+ with a 17" CRT. Now I can see how a faster/better computer can make you productive. If my income had anything to do with computer work, I'd invest $10,000 or so in a DP G5 with dual 30"'ers. So, if you can afford it, I'd say get this beast. Also, if you look in the (short) history of PM G5 releases, they've all been in/near the summer. I doubt 3.0Ghz will be available soon - especially on an architecture like the G5.

Oh yeah - with all this cash-burning taking place, make sure you save around $100 for OS X Tiger since I believe it's supposed to be coming out (very) soon.

[E's Lil Theorem]

Originally posted by jamil5454:
...I doubt 3.0Ghz will be available soon - especially on an architecture like the G5.

Oh yeah - with all this cash-burning taking place, make sure you save around $100 for OS X Tiger since I believe it's supposed to be coming out (very) soon.

I kept hearing this and it finally sunk in, so I bit the bullet and bought me a current dual 2.0GHz. What convinced me was the discount I got from a friend who works at Apple. So, the plan is to have this machine for a few months and resell it once those nifty 3.0GHz machines come out (hopefully 1H 2005 so I can get more money back from this machine I just bought).

Oh, and I'm hoping I get Tiger at a discount since I'm buying weeks before it's released (or so I hear).

[jcadam]

Originally posted by eddiecatflap:
reader50 is a wise man

until pci-e comes onto the pmac, you'd be mad to buy imho

this is gonna revolutionise mac in/out and give gaming a massive kick up the a**

I disagree. It is going to take a LONG time to phase out standard PCI and PCI-X in favor of PCIe. Remeber how long it took for 16-bit ISA slots to finally disappear from PC motherboards? PCI is more firmly entrenched than ISA ever was.

Your AGP/PCI system you buy now is not going to be useless anytime soon.

[sodamnregistered2]

We are approaching the limits of CPU design. Dual core, sure, that's nice, but, I have a dual 2.0 and I really don't think a dual 2.5 would "blow me away."

Really, efficiencies need to come from other areas.

The #1 evil seems to be hard drives. Would love to see some options as far as striped drives and the ability to stuff more drives in that HUGE G5 case.

Apple could work harder to get us better "workstation" level video cards. If I did more 3d work, I'd def switch to PC for my 3d work for the video card options alone.

And, ta dah, the #1 weakness... software. Software seems to be designed and executed rather weakly. Very few programs I run, with Cinema 4d XL being the main exception, really use the hardware power available to it.

After Effects 5.5, the version I'm still using, is just horribly inefficient.

[eddiecatflap]

true dat

i guess seeing as microshyte has a monopoly over software its not surprising that most of it is underperforming rubbish

not unlike windoze xp

[power142]

Originally posted by sodamnregistered2:
We are approaching the limits of CPU design. Dual core, sure, that's nice, but, I have a dual 2.0 and I really don't think a dual 2.5 would "blow me away."

The thing I've personally found about the dual 2.5 is not the performance leap from 2.0 to 2.5GHz, but the average noise level of the machine. In my experience at least, the rev A dual 2.0 I used to have on my desk howled quite loudly under load, where as the dual 2.5 is essentially silent with periodic rev ups and rev downs. Some people might find this more annoying than a constant howl, but I for one don't. Maybe the newer units are better, but I have no experience of those.

[Al G]

I have heard that the 2.5s actually make more noise than the 2.0s.

A lot probably depends on whether the machine is calibrated properly and doesn't have any bum parts. I have a rev. A 2.0 that was pretty noisy but it turns out it had a bad CPU along with a fan or two with a bad bearing. Once those problems were fixed it was very quiet even under full CPU load.

Noise is so subjective though. Anecdotal evidence doesn't do us much good because it depends on how hard the machine is working and the ambient temperature (and other factors like which video card, two hard drives or one?) not to mention the hearing accuity of the user. Until someone takes a sample of five or so machines of the same model (from different production runs) and tests them with a sound meter under the same exact conditions we may never know which is quieter on average.

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by ideasculptor:
I can GUARANTEE that apple will announce some new PM product that blows your socks off sometime in the next 2 months. How do I know this?

Cause I just ordered a new 2x2.5

--sam

Aint that the truth!

but really, I doubt we'll see 3.0 just yet.. the process is reaching some physical limits.

[LightWaver-67]

Well... since I am the thread originator, I thought it appropriate to mention that I DID get the dual 2.5 G5 and in a twist of irony, it is scheduled to ARRIVE here on the afternoon of the MWSF Keynote acording to FedEx tracking.

I can picture it now... with the time-zone difference, the keynote will begin around noon here in Boston... will last about an hour and a half... Steve's LAST announcement will be the new PowerMag G6 running Quad 5.2Ghz processors and it will be $100 cheaper than the box I ordered... and then...

* ding - dong *

My doorbell will ring and it will be FedEx with my new obsolete box.

Heheheh...

Nah... either way, I'll be happy with my choice. I smartened-up and 'nixed the idea of the dual "30 displays. I'm GLAD I did too... since a few days after I placed my order, the price dropped by $400 per display!!! - I decided to stick with my CRT displays, but reinvested that money into things like - oh, I don't know... - Logic Pro 7, Production Suite Upgrade, Mackie Control Universal, Mackie C4, Radium Controller, MOTU 2408 mkIII, new reference monitors... a whole BUNCH of stuff.

Of course... ALL the peripheral hardware and software arrived LAST WEEK, but the G5 is not scheduled to be here until next week. Thanks for the tease, Apple.

[jrramsey]

Hi LightWaver-67,

VERY COOL SETUP. I see you have quite a bit of audio. What software do you use?

[Al G]

If Apple were going to upgrade the G5s, it's quite likely that they would automatically upgrade your order and/or delay it. If it's just a price drop, I doubt they will help you.

And if they do announce something spectacular before your order arrives, you can just refuse delivery. Problem solved.

Of course yours is probably a CTO, so everything I just said might go out the window.

[Kodachrome]

Its about time Apple does this.

I hope it looks alot like the cube.

[LightWaver-67]

Originally posted by jrramsey:
Hi LightWaver-67,

VERY COOL SETUP. I see you have quite a bit of audio. What software do you use?

Well, one clue might be the Logic Pro 7 manuals sitting on my desk in the photo... but the other, more incriminating evidence would be in the text where I say I purchased Logic Pro 7.

heheheh...

Sorry... just teasin' - Yeah! It's some cool stuff. I'll be slowly converting my recording studio from 20-Bit ADAT XT-20 recorders, to going non-linear... but I gotta take it slow and learn this stuff before I can charge clients money. It's gonna be a shame to watch all the $k's of outboard gear go the way of the dinosaur and collect dust... but then again, as cool as they are, I cannot automate my Presonus ACP-88 units...!!!

peace...

[Muziekschuur]

Where's the motu for? A Tascam DM24 perhaps?

Regards,


FRans


P.s. then look on http://www.tascamforums.com

[UnixMac]

Welcome to the PowerMac Workstation club!

[LightWaver-67]

Originally posted by UnixMac:
Welcome to the PowerMac Workstation club!

Hehehe... I've been there for a while now.

If I pan that photo to the left, you'd see my 3-displays and on the OTHER side is all the NTSC monitor, VHS deck & DVD player (for testing) and all the video I/O stuff.

I have every Pro app apple makes now; FCP, DVDSP, Motion, Logic Pro... I also own LightWave (Hence the name) and almost every-other pro-app out there.

So, yeah... my office has been like NASA for quite some-time. I have two UPS backups, three printers, 3 sets of speakers (no surround-sound yet) and peripherals too-numerous to list.

And thankfully... YES! I DO make money at this stuff!

[Madrag]

that's excelent Lightwaver!
I envy you!

I hope your new G5 will make you earn even more money, so you can get a cluster of G5s to render your stuff!

[drewm]

don't throw that outboard gear away yet!!! I've come back to doing more and more analog processing in the past few years.
drew

http://www.drewmazurek.com