[crazyjohnson]

Hows it going guys? Pages does not have any Word like outline features does it? I use Word to take notes in class but am looking for something a little better (no, I don't like OmniOutline much). Anyway, I bet Apple could do a great job with something like that. I am not trying to turn this into a "what is a good outline app" - just wondering if there is anything in Pages now.

[Simon X]

Check out NoteBook. It's a good app now and is set to get a whole lot better when 2 comes out in March as a free upgrade. (see the feature list online) I'm sure looking forward to the iApps, Mail and Address Book integration and am going to suggest to the developer he finds a way to link to Pages now that it has been released. If, form what I gather, Pages stores its data in XML then I hope there is a way to work together.

So, worth checking out and sending feedback to Circus Ponies if you like their app. I do all the time and they are very receptive.

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by Synotic:
Also, I, having some web experience, can say that this isn't something that can be "improved"� you can't reliably transform an absolutely positioned print document to a dynamic web document.

But you can create an absolutely positioned Web document.

[Synotic]

Originally posted by Chuckit:
But you can create an absolutely positioned Web document.

You can of course position blocks anywhere you want; the problem is that as text sizes change (not necessarily by an end user� different combinations of browsers and platforms and user settings can affect this), the text begins to jump out of its boxes, but nothing affects anything else. Everything just resizes independently of everything else, so things get covered up. That's a problem even with hand crafted absolutely positioned sites; an automated program has no chance. And what of objects/images/tables/charts that are placed freely on the page with text wrapping? Should they just be absolutely positioned on the page, covering the text? Or just relegated to the side, effectively destroying the layout? That's one of the biggest problems with exporting to web.

For any non-linear design, usually boxes are fixed on the page using text wrap, or columns are used. And of course HTML has no version of columns, and limited support for text wrap (left, right, top, bottom), which makes accurately representing a print document in HTML even harder.

I do understand your point though� a somewhat better initial look can be created by breaking up the document into blocks (I don't know how well a program would decide that) and absolutely positioning them. But Apple's choice to transform to a dynamically sized layout shows that they are averse to trying to represent a print document as a web document. I still think that the feature is mostly useless except for exporting a few simple documents. I also still think that they know that too and only have the feature because Word has it. But if you're satisfied with an exported document's appearance in whatever browsers you want to view it in, do it.

[Amorya]

Originally posted by Hairllama:
My biggest problem so far is the way I have to open yet another pallet to change fonts, set justification, etc. I miss having the most critical formatting tools on the toolbar. Also if you turn off the "show templates for new docs" in the preferences, I can't find a way to choose a template without changing prefs again. There's no expandable menu, nothing. Pages seems really dependent on having all these extra pallets hanging around. I guess Steve is trying to get me to upgrade to wide screen displays. Overall, Pages seems rushed and unfinished.

That's a feature, not a bug.

Basically, you should never have to change font while writing. When writing, assign styles to your text (such as Heading, or Citation, or Address). Ignore how they look for now. The styles assignment button is in obvious view. Then once you've finished, set up how the styles look. That involves opening the palettes, but only has to be done once while they're set up.

The reason there is no font chooser in the toolbar is precisely because Apple think it a bad idea (and many agree) to just assign fonts arbitrarily without using styles. The styles are to ensure a consistent look for bits of the document, and to make it easy to (say) change all headings to be bold - when you update the Heading style, all headings get updated!

Amorya

[squilla]

Originally posted by Amorya:

Originally posted by Hairllama:
My biggest problem so far is the way I have to open yet another pallet to change fonts, set justification, etc. I miss having the most critical formatting tools on the toolbar. Also if you turn off the "show templates for new docs" in the preferences, I can't find a way to choose a template without changing prefs again. There's no expandable menu, nothing. Pages seems really dependent on having all these extra pallets hanging around. I guess Steve is trying to get me to upgrade to wide screen displays. Overall, Pages seems rushed and unfinished.

That's a feature, not a bug.
Amorya

I don't see why I can't switch from a template for drafting a manuscript to a template for writing a letter without either (a) having to re-set my preferences, or (b) giving up having a default template. That's a bug, not a feature.

I think Hairllama's right; there are a lot of things about Pages that suggest Apple was in a big hurry to get this out the door. To pick two more of my irritants for example: there are no hyperlinks to files on the local disk, and there are no endnotes (as opposed to footnotes).

[midwinter]

Originally posted by squilla:
To pick two more of my irritants for example: there are no hyperlinks to files on the local disk, and there are no endnotes (as opposed to footnotes). [/B]

I hadn't even noticed that! Curse you, Apple!

[kcmac]

From the sounds of it, the more you try to use Pages like your typical word processor, the more you may be frustrated. Maybe Apples' idea is to get you to think a little more differently about this app.

I probably fall in the camp of those that butcher the styles feature in Word. From my first glance at the templates, etc. and listening to the posts here and elsewhere, I think I will have a better understanding of how styles actually work.

BTW. iWork was delivered to me on Friday by Fed Ex Ground. Unfortunately, it showed up when my wife was dropping off my daughter at school. (9 am.)

Ground doesn't make a second attempt the same day like Express does and apparently Apple required a signature for this package. So I won't see mine until Monday.

Please keep the comments coming. It's all I got for now. Can't wait to give it a try.

A pretty good review is posted here.
http://macteens.com/more.php?id=602_0_1_0_C

[squilla]

Originally posted by kcmac:
From the sounds of it, the more you try to use Pages like your typical word processor, the more you may be frustrated. Maybe Apples' idea is to get you to think a little more differently about this app.

I'm not quite sure who's should be thinking different here. Pages is geared toward display and self-publishing; its strengths are all in that direction. But people who are preparing manuscripts for publication as books or journal articles have to deal with publishers, and publishers think they know about things like layout and demand certain things in their manuscripts. For example, they want the footnotes at the end, so they can do the page layout themselves. They want artwork, tables, and figures on separate pages as well. And they dislike fancy headings, character styles, etc.

So all of Pages wonderful strengths are a PITA if you're drafting a manuscript to send to a journal; it's actually worse than MS Word for those purposes.

But it looks great if you need a light-weight page layout app for documents without a lot of technical content.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by squilla:

So all of Pages wonderful strengths are a PITA if you're drafting a manuscript to send to a journal; it's actually worse than MS Word for those purposes.

Most of the journals I submit to (academic) request Word documents. Some have even requested specific versions (I had something a while back that wanted Word 98 format...go figure).

But in the end, it depends upon what kind of writing you do. Other than the endnotes issue, Pages seems utterly perfect for me.

[kcmac]

Originally posted by squilla:

So all of Pages wonderful strengths are a PITA if you're drafting a manuscript to send to a journal; it's actually worse than MS Word for those purposes.

But it looks great if you need a light-weight page layout app for documents without a lot of technical content.

And I think that is what I was saying. If you want it to be like Word or act like Word or be like Indesign or act like inDesign, etc. it will not be and certainly is not.

It has already got me thinking more about styles. I even looked at Word this evening, played around more with styles and realized just how little I understood about how they work in Word although I cuss them constantly. Just the discussion of this Pages app has opened my eyes to how much easier or out front they seem to be in Pages.

If anything, seeing how easily styles work in Pages may help me improve my use and understanding of styles in Word. At least this is my impression now. This could soon change but it has opened my eyes to a few things.

I am awaiting my copy of iWork and can't wait to put Pages to work. I have quite a few real Work projects that it appears will be perfectly suited for this app. We do a lot of design reports with multiple photos, sketches, scans, etc. We always place them in the back of the report as appendices because placing them within a Word document is time consuming and frustrating. That's about as technical as my work gets with a word processor/page layout app goes.

I don't and did not expect Pages to replace Word. What I did and still expect is that it will very simply allow me to supercharge my Documents with graphics and layout in a fashion using much less knowledge of word processing and page layout.

Since we use pdf format extensively at my work, using Word, TextEdit, omnioutliner, omnigraffle, or whatever I want, importing it to Pages for the shine and saving as pdf sounds like great fun to me.

And anyway, I expect that Apple will keep on adding to TextEdit and someday it will be a part of iWork when it comes with a new Mac for free. TextEdit will be the Mac Word Processor.

[Hairllama]

And anyway, I expect that Apple will keep on adding to TextEdit and someday it will be a part of iWork when it comes with a new Mac for free. TextEdit will be the Mac Word Processor. [/B]

I think you helped me stumble on to something, Pages is not really a word processor! It's a light weight page layout app. Silly me, I thought it would be the Appleworks replacement, or at least have all the features of Appleworks plus more. It does appear to be a nice . . . whatever it is supposed to be, I just thought we were getting a new, pure, word processor.

p.s. The lack of end notes is a real killer, even Claris Works had those. I've been very happy with most Apple releases, but this time they lost their vision. I just expected more.

[Cadaver]

Originally posted by Hairllama:
The lack of end notes is a real killer, even Claris Works had those. I've been very happy with most Apple releases, but this time they lost their vision. I just expected more.

While I partly agree, I think this app has potenial. The next version, hopefully (with users providing good feedback), should solve many of these issues, much the same way Keynote 2 has matured in to a powerful and flexible app.

[Eug Wanker]

Does this link work for you guys? I just started a new webspace account and I'm not sure if linked the file properly.

Keynote 2's new Grid and Droplet transitions

Can someone export a QuickTime video of the Burn and Flash transitions? My computer can't display them since the GPU isn't new enough, and I'd like to see what they look like.

[juanvaldes]

link no workie...

[Amorya]

Originally posted by squilla:

That's a feature, not a bug.
Amorya

I don't see why I can't switch from a template for drafting a manuscript to a template for writing a letter without either (a) having to re-set my preferences, or (b) giving up having a default template. That's a bug, not a feature.

I think Hairllama's right; there are a lot of things about Pages that suggest Apple was in a big hurry to get this out the door. To pick two more of my irritants for example: there are no hyperlinks to files on the local disk, and there are no endnotes (as opposed to footnotes).

Sorry - I wasn't clear. I was referring to "My biggest problem so far is the way I have to open yet another pallet to change fonts, set justification", not to the lack of being able to change templates.

For choosing a template on startup, try holding down Option or something? That seems to be the standard way to override startup options in Apple apps. No idea if it works here or not though.

Originally posted by squilla:
So all of Pages wonderful strengths are a PITA if you're drafting a manuscript to send to a journal; it's actually worse than MS Word for those purposes.

But it looks great if you need a light-weight page layout app for documents without a lot of technical content.

No comment on endnotes - they should be in. But as for sending stuff to a journal, don't forget that styles don't equal fancy by definition... make a set of plain ones that format things exactly as your journal wants them. Then save that as a template, and write all your documents in that.

Originally posted by midwinter:
Most of the journals I submit to (academic) request Word documents. Some have even requested specific versions (I had something a while back that wanted Word 98 format...go figure).

But in the end, it depends upon what kind of writing you do. Other than the endnotes issue, Pages seems utterly perfect for me.

I've seen a lot that want LaTeX - they have their own style file to do the formatting, and so just run all their docs through it to lay them out. I haven't met any that won't take a printed copy (albeit laid out to their taste) though!

Amorya

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by Hairllama:
The lack of end notes is a real killer, even Claris Works had those.

What is an end note?

[mishakim]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
What is an end note?

same concept as a footnote, except they all go at the end of the chapter or end of the entire manuscript, like a bibiography. Some people just prefer them, while some have to use them because of wherever they're publishing or using their work. For example, in law, different courts and law reviews may require footnotes, endnotes, or embedded citations.

The ideal approach (for many, anyway) is that your cites go into a database, and you can switch them between locations and formats as needed. There are third-party solutions (e.g. EndNote) for this, though I've never used one. Perhaps they will be upgraded to support Pages.

[Hairllama]

Originally posted by Cadaver:
While I partly agree, I think this app has potenial. The next version, hopefully (with users providing good feedback), should solve many of these issues, much the same way Keynote 2 has matured in to a powerful and flexible app.

I'd be OK with that thinking if I hadn't paid $80 for an unfinished application. I hope I don't have to pay for the real release after beta testing this thing. This reminds me a bit of OS X version 10.0. It's a public beta pretending to be a real release.

[Simon]

When I hear people here talk about footnotes, end notes, fancy TOCs, bibliographies, etc. and then they use Word or Pages, I can't help thinking they're getting it all wrong. How can you stand all the pain Word gives you with such documents?

If you really need that kind of fancy stuff to publish your work, you should use nothing lese than LaTeX with TexShop on OS X.

And before anybody tells me that LaTeX is just for mathematicians and natural scientists, let me add that my g/f is a psychologist and uses nothing but LaTeX to publish her papers.


[edited for clarity]

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by juanvaldes:
link no workie...

OK try this link then: Droplet and Grid transition

P.S. The video I'd like to see is of these transitions:

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Simon:
And before anybody tells me that LaTeX is just for mathematicians and scientists, let me add that my g/f is a psychologist and uses nothing but LaTeX to publish her papers.

So it's not just for mathematicians and scientists because your gf writes her science papers on it?

[Stecchino]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
OK try this link then: Droplet and Grid transition

P.S. The video I'd like to see is of these transitions:

This link works fine. Nice transitions!

Also, everyone on this thread with ideas for improvements...please submit all of your feedback to Apple on their newly added feedback page

[cpac]

Originally posted by Hairllama:
I'd be OK with that thinking if I hadn't paid $80 for an unfinished application. I hope I don't have to pay for the real release after beta testing this thing. This reminds me a bit of OS X version 10.0. It's a public beta pretending to be a real release.

Get over yourself.

Think of it this way: You're paying a discounted price for Keynote v.2. (v.1 cost $100) and you're getting a new app, (Pages) thrown in for free.

You were free to wait, evaluate in-store, ask questions etc. before you bought - so basically I have no sympathy. Since when has any 1.0 release had all the features and polish you'd expect of a truly mature application?

[mdc]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
OK try this link then: Droplet and Grid transition

P.S. The video I'd like to see is of these transitions:

burn and flash (.mov)

ps. isn't grid the coolest transition?

[squilla]

Originally posted by Amorya:
For choosing a template on startup, try holding down Option or something? That seems to be the standard way to override startup options in Apple apps. No idea if it works here or not though.

Doesn't work; it needs an "Open from template..." option

No comment on endnotes - they should be in. But as for sending stuff to a journal, don't forget that styles don't equal fancy by definition... make a set of plain ones that format things exactly as your journal wants them. Then save that as a template, and write all your documents in that.
Amorya

Multiple (possible) publishers, different style requirements for each, hence many template design jobs-- and they all want the notes at the end, and the tables, artwork, etc on separate pages.

What we need for an MS-for-publisher template is a centered bloc of text that says "Insert Figure n about here", and Pages doesn't have any boilerplate facility either. Of course, I could use a text block object, but that's artwork as far as the publishers are concerned.

[LaGow]

Have been evaluating Pages for a couple of days now and it's very nice. I can't wait to switch from Word, since I'm not a heavyweight word-process user and this app seems perfect for people like me.

My only complaint so far is the lack of global styles. Does anyone kow if there's a way to change the default font?

Also, I admit diappointment that a spreadsheet application isn't part of this suite. I'm just dying for something lightweight and fast that integrates well into the rest of iWork.

My $0.02.

[kcmac]

Originally posted by mdc:
burn and flash (.mov)

ps. isn't grid the coolest transition?

I really like the burn transition. I saw it on the keynote and it looked like a foliage pattern or something. I like it better than grid. Still like the wave or droplet the best.

[Mediaman_12]

Originally posted by LaGow:
My only complaint so far is the lack of global styles. Does anyone kow if there's a way to change the default font?

Why not just create a new 'blank' template with the styles altered to whatever you want?

[LaGow]

Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
Why not just create a new 'blank' template with the styles altered to whatever you want?

Ah, of course. Thank you.

EDIT: For those of you as clueless as I, one saves it as a template in "My Templates" and selects it as the default template in Preferences. Works like a dream.

[Macfreak7]

One question, how does "bullets and numbering" work in Pages? Word can't do this properly or without frustrating the user at all.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by mdc:
burn and flash (.mov)

ps. isn't grid the coolest transition?

Thanks for posting that. Burn seems interesting, but I don't think I'd actually use it in a real presentation. So no big loss that my system can't play them. Grid is tres cool though.

I really wonder what transitions Keynote 3.0 is going to get....

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Macfreak7:
One question, how does "bullets and numbering" work in Pages? Word can't do this properly or without frustrating the user at all.

Works great! No more chasing bullets around the page!

[shagless]

Got mine on Friday. Fedex didn't piss me off and not leave it. (Why they can't deliver before 5'oclock is beyond me). Like both apps great. Except, I build a beautiful spread in Pages, think gee, this would look nice on my webpage so I decided to export to html. Comes out terrible. What is the point of using their templates if they don't know how to export them without total mixup of where everything was at. Apple, please fix. A great app other than that. Think it may take the place of of word for a while. I am still learning Keynote, but I think it is awesome.

[Richard Harrison]

Hi,

Could someone please test out the subscript and superscript options in Pages, and post a screenshot?

I am interested in seeing if Pages can apply super/subscripts while keeping the line spacing constant. In all other Cocoa apps, the line spacing gets messed up with subscripts. I'm desperately hoping that Apple has fixed this!

Cheers

Rich

[threestain]

I have just received confirmation of shipping of iWork. At last they're starting to ship over here in UK!

[brettcamp]

Not sure which topic to post this question under (there are several dealing with Pages here), but here's what I want to know:

Can anyone who has Pages and AppleWorks list the main features that the AW word processor has but Pages (even when supplemented by Services, which can provide word count, thesaurus, etc.) lacks?

I know Pages has all these great layout capabilities etc., but I need to know whether it'll really replace AppleWorks (and TextEdit) word processing, since I do a lot more word crunching than page layout.

Conversely, does Pages have any word processing (not layout) capabilities that AW lacks?

[MacGorilla]

Pages doesn't suck�

AW isn't aging well; I find it a leaner, faster app. But its really more a layout program than a word processor; it has all the word processing features like AW, but options to laying out of text and graphics, headers and footers.

Of course AW has other apps, like the spreadsheet and database that Pages lacks.

[threestain]

By the way I got iWork yesterday, and its wicked. 1 day of shipping - excellent stuff