[corp miler]

I am looking at purchasing a PowerMac and need some advice. Currently I work on a 1ghz ti PowerBook with 1GB RAM and an additional monitor. The PB works great in Quark and Illustrator and pretty good in Photoshop (expect some progress bars on 100MB files, etc). I need a second system. Originally I was looking at and entry level G5 or maybe even a souped up Mini (I've since ruled the Mini out), but I don't think I can swing the G5 price tag right now. How does a used >867mhz G4 dual processor with a gig of RAM compare to an entry level 1.8ghz G5 with 512MB of RAM? A new G5 is half again the price to the G4 and the G5 DP twice. The only bench test I could find was comparing a 733 G4 to a new 2.5 G5 DP -- a very sided test. Thanks for your help.

[Lateralus]

Why compare a Dual 867 to a 1.8 G5? They're not even in the same price range. If you're going to compare the 1.8 to any G4, compare it to the Dual 1.42.

In which case, I would say that the Dual 1.42 is a much better machine.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally posted by Lateralus:
Why compare a Dual 867 to a 1.8 G5? They're not even in the same price range. If you're going to compare the 1.8 to any G4, compare it to the Dual 1.42.

I think he's looking at what he can get for what he's able to spend (Dual 867), and trying to figure out if it would perform well enough for him. And if not, should he deal with the laptop for now and save up for a G5.

I don't think he's trying to make a comparison based on similar prices.

[macaddict0001]

go with the dual g4.

[Al G]

Between those two systems, the G5 will outperform that particular dual G4, and the G5 will also be much quieter. If you're used to a Powerbook, you will likely be put off by the amount of noise from that model G4 desktop.

[MORT A POTTY]

the comparably priced dual G4 should smoke the single G5 in most tasks though.

[sheer]

There's a dual 867 (MDD) 5 yards away from me at work and I can hear that above the 466 which is 18 inches away...

[osxisfun]

Originally posted by sheer:
There's a dual 867 (MDD) 5 yards away from me at work and I can hear that above the 466 which is 18 inches away...

amen. the 867s are LOUD. and this is after a power supply change out.

[GORDYmac]

I don't know if the fan in my Quicksilver 933 is loud or not. I know it's a non issue to me.

I'd go with the best G4 you can find--Quicksilver 2002 and up.

[corp miler]

Just to clarify, I rather not spend the price of a new G5. A entry G5 with additional RAM is in the $1700 range where as used dual G4s are going around the $1000 mark. If there are used systems out there which will do a nearly equal job for far less I'd rather go that route. jasonsRX7 , thanks for jumping in.

So if going with a used G4 stay at or above the 933? I know a loud fan would bother me in a quiet environment.

[Leonard]

Originally posted by Al G:
Between those two systems, the G5 will outperform that particular dual G4, and the G5 will also be much quieter. If you're used to a Powerbook, you will likely be put off by the amount of noise from that model G4 desktop.

I'd have to agree, the single G5 1.8 will outperform the dual G4 867. You'd have to get to about a a dual G4 1.25 to approach the power of a single G5 1.8.

What version of the MacOS are you using? What versions of Quark and Illustrator (might be relavent)?
Are Quark and Illustrator multi-processor aware?

[MORT A POTTY]

the MDD G4s are "Hella Loud" and the quicksilvers aren't that quiet either (but not near MDD). the G5s are definitely the quietest.

[Agent69]

I bought my MDD in Jan 2004, new, and I don't think that it is too bad.

[Lateralus]

If you get a late-production G4 MDD, or one that was the recipient of Apple's PSU exchange program, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the noise level.

[osxisfun]

still not as quiet as a g5 though,

[Lateralus]

Depends on who you talk to.

[Webscreamer]

Originally posted by Lateralus:
Depends on who you talk to.

And really depends on the G5. You never know if you are gonna find a leaf blower inside.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by corp miler:
Just to clarify, I rather not spend the price of a new G5. A entry G5 with additional RAM is in the $1700 range where as used dual G4s are going around the $1000 mark. If there are used systems out there which will do a nearly equal job for far less I'd rather go that route. jasonsRX7 , thanks for jumping in.

So if going with a used G4 stay at or above the 933? I know a loud fan would bother me in a quiet environment.

If you already have a 1 GHz G4, you won't see much of an improvement unless you go G5. If you use just one app mainly (e. g. you photoshop images for hours or something), you will see very little improvement if you get a 1.25 GHz G4 (dual or not), processorwise.

So I would suggest that you either get an iMac G5 or save until you have money for a Dual G5.

[andrewgf]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
If you already have a 1 GHz G4, you won't see much of an improvement unless you go G5. If you use just one app mainly (e. g. you photoshop images for hours or something), you will see very little improvement if you get a 1.25 GHz G4 (dual or not), processorwise.

So I would suggest that you either get an iMac G5 or save until you have money for a Dual G5.

Isn't Photoshop multiprocessor aware ? I think you may get more than a little improvement.

However I'm with you on suggesting that he go a Dual G5 to get the best speed. A single G5 PM would allow alot more expansion over an Imac though.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by andrewgf:
Isn't Photoshop multiprocessor aware ? I think you may get more than a little improvement.

However I'm with you on suggesting that he go a Dual G5 to get the best speed. A single G5 PM would allow alot more expansion over an Imac though.

Only specific filters are, so the results vary. Even if your computer is 20 % faster, you won't notice too much. (As a rule of thumb, you start noticing for sure if your new computer is 30 % faster. If you edit/encode videos, the threshold is lower.)

[corp miler]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
So I would suggest that you either get an iMac G5 or save until you have money for a Dual G5.

Interesting. Just for the sake of discussion. How does the performance of a 1.8 iMac compare to a 1.8 Powermac using multiple apps such as Quark, Photoshop, Illustrator and Mail? I've been looking a 20" display as well. Expandability isn't an issue with me (other than a good amount of RAM).

[andrewgf]

Originally posted by corp miler:
Interesting. Just for the sake of discussion. How does the performance of a 1.8 iMac compare to a 1.8 Powermac using multiple apps such as Quark, Photoshop, Illustrator and Mail? I've been looking a 20" display as well. Expandability isn't an issue with me (other than a good amount of RAM).

Check out barefeats.com for various performance specs. The upshot is that the Imac G5 is good value running comparatively well against most other Macs.

Considering that the single CPU PM runs at the same speed at the bus level and the CPU.

If all thats needed is a good amount of RAM then an Imac is the go.

[crooner]

Everyone has made good points. One important thing to consider is that the G5, by itself, is not an exponentially faster chip than a similarly clocked G4. Sure, they're faster but it's main advantage is that it has much higher head room and it's future speeds will (and probably already have) exceeded the top speeds for a G4.
That being said, a large reason the G5s are so great is that they have FAT pipe lines for all that data that the CPU is hungry for. It's not waiting for data like the older architecture in the G4s imposes.

On the other hand, there's no debating that dual processors make a huge difference in OS X. HUGE.

The noise thing is totally subjective. My office is loud as I have an external SCSI RAID box with fans out my as, so the sound of my dual 1Ghz QuickSilver doesn't bother me at all. But only you can know how much fan noise will affect you.

So what am I advising? I'd say if you can afford a reasonably high speed dual G4 you should go for it. As fast as the G5 systems are, the dual CPUs more than make up for the faster system architecture on the G5s.
MHO

[corp miler]

Thanks for all you responses thus far. Based on all I've read and what I have to spend, I think a used dual G4 is the way to go. The dual G4 performance seems to be on par with an entry G5 but with a huge cost savings. Maybe in a couple years I'll sell it for a dual G5.

I've created a new post: "Which dual G4 should I buy? [edit: the post was considered a duplicate and closed. Please ignore the new post.]

[jmagic]

where is a good place to find used power macs??

besides ebay that is

[crooner]

Originally posted by jmagic:
where is a good place to find used power macs??

besides ebay that is

Give PowerMax a shot. They always have a ton of systems in great shape.

http://www.powermax.com/

[corp miler]

Big very careful on eBay. I�ve had 3 occasions were the auction looked legitimate. I asked the seller a simple question and they�ve come back with the Western Union scam (i.e., �send your xxxx US dollars Western Union and we will send your package� and all closed with something like �lets close the deal today� -- odd). I always ask the seller a question regardless of what I�m looking at just to open the lines of communication.

This site some times has some good equipment but your timing has to be just right. Always looking for others.

[Lateralus]

The way to buy on eBay is to only bid on auctions with actual pictures of the items from sellers that have feedback from selling other high-dollar items.

If you're wary, ask about local pickup, even if you're not local.

[Captain Egotist]

I scored a dual 1.33ghz g4 tower with 1.5 gigs of ram a bunch of other crazy upgrades for $1700 on ebay.... but it included a 20" cinema display. I highly suggest doing something like that.

[hotani]

Originally posted by osxisfun:
amen. the 867s are LOUD. and this is after a power supply change out.

Mine's not.

lets see, new power supply (from apple), new quiet case fan ($7), new copper heatsink... its actually quite tolerable now.

I'm very happy with my dual 867 machine now that it doesn't sound like a frikkin lawn mower. It has good power and does everything I need it to. That doesn't mean I'm not out looking at processor upgrades though... unfortunately the dual 1.4GHz upgrade card is still a hefty $600; yeouch. Maybe one day.

I'd say go with the dual G4, but yeah there is the chance you'll end up with what sounds like a leaf blower on your desk - it is fixable though.

BTW... I'm even considering water-cooling, just haven't found a good water block. As soon as I do, I can get an external system (reservior /pump/fans in external box) and drop my sound levels significantly.

[Leonard]

Originally posted by jmagic:
where is a good place to find used power macs??

besides ebay that is

Check out your local Mac User Group or Mac User Group Board.

Check out local forums. Try and buy locally.

If your going to buy cross-country be very careful.

[corp miler]

Looks like I'm on the hunt for a used dual G4. Price aside, which ones were problematic and what are some issue to be aware of? Is the 867 going to be louder than a 1ghz or 1.25ghz? Which models were part of Apple's power supply exchange and is that offer still available if the PS was not replaced yet? There are a lot of systems out there, especially the above mentioned, I just need to figure out which one is best and find a fair seller. Thanks.

[Leonard]

The Power Supply exchange program is over, if the machine wasn't fixed, you're out of luck.

As for things to look out for, as most people mentioned, was the noise of the MDD (Mirror Drive Door) Power Mac G4's. Of course there were advantages to the MDDs, you could have two optical drives.

If you're interested in booting MacOS 9, you have to watch out for any MDDs that don't boot MacOS 9. There was a line of MDDs that didn't boot MacOS 9. If you're only concerned with booting MacOS 10.x.x then you don't have to worry about this. edit: The Power Mac G4's that couldn't boot MacOS 9 were apparently called Firewire 800 Power Mac G4's because they had firewire 800 ports. They looked like MDDs.

Watch out for the Power Mac G4's without L3 cache, you preferably want a Power Mac G4 with L3 cache. But if you're looking for duals, you should be fine as I think all duals came with L3 cache.

[corp miler]

Originally posted by Leonard:
The Power Supply exchange program is over, if the machine wasn't fixed, you're out of luck.

As for things to look out for, as most people mentioned, was the noise of the MDD (Mirror Drive Door) Power Mac G4's. Of course there were advantages to the MDDs, you could have two optical drives.

If you're interested in booting MacOS 9, you have to watch out for any MDDs that don't boot MacOS 9. There was a line of MDDs that didn't boot MacOS 9. If you're only concerned with booting MacOS 10.x.x then you don't have to worry about this. edit: The Power Mac G4's that couldn't boot MacOS 9 were apparently called Firewire 800 Power Mac G4's because they had firewire 800 ports. They looked like MDDs.

Watch out for the Power Mac G4's without L3 cache, you preferably want a Power Mac G4 with L3 cache. But if you're looking for duals, you should be fine as I think all duals came with L3 cache.

Was this true on all MDDs? Is there a way to tell if a power supply should have been swapped and was not. I�ve asked a few sellers about this and I received either �it doesn�t sound loud to me� or �I bought this off someone a year ago� responses. These are easy enough to open, but I don�t know what to tell the seller to look for.

I don�t need dual drives. Are the Quicksilvers less problematic?

[Captain Egotist]

You can put two opticals in a quicksilver with a little metal work.

- Rob

[Detrius]

Originally posted by Leonard:
...Watch out for the Power Mac G4's without L3 cache, you preferably want a Power Mac G4 with L3 cache. But if you're looking for duals, you should be fine as I think all duals came with L3 cache.

Not all duals came with L3 cache. My dual 533 has 1MB L2 per processor. There is no reason to put an L3 on that.

You really have to look at benchmarks to see whether or not the L3 is important for a certain processor. In general, having it is better than not having it, but if the L2 is sufficiently large, you don't need an L3.

[bossep]

Originally posted by Detrius:
Not all duals came with L3 cache. My dual 533 has 1MB L2 per processor. There is no reason to put an L3 on that.

You really have to look at benchmarks to see whether or not the L3 is important for a certain processor. In general, having it is better than not having it, but if the L2 is sufficiently large, you don't need an L3.

In that case the Sonnet 1.7GHz is as good as their 1.2 or 1.4GHz. The first of the three 512MB L2, the other two L3 cache too.

[Crusoe]

Don't forget to check out the refurbs on Apple Store US. On occasions they have the Rev A single 1.8 with PCI X, 8 RAM slots and the 900Mhz bus for $1399. The 1.6 is $1199 and the new "crippled" 1.8 is $1299, barefeats compared these two if I recall.
iMac G5s go for $1099, $1299 and $1649. All with 1 year warranty.

[Don Pickett]

Originally posted by andrewgf:
Isn't Photoshop multiprocessor aware ? I think you may get more than a little improvement.

However I'm with you on suggesting that he go a Dual G5 to get the best speed. A single G5 PM would allow alot more expansion over an Imac though.

The big advantage the G5s have is the much faster bus speed. If the Photoshop images are sufficiently large you will notice a big improvement with the G5 over the dual G4. The G4s 167 MHz bus speed really lags it.

[corp miler]

The Apple sale sparked my interest. After much consideration I ended up going with a new 1.8 dual G5. With Quark offering $300 off for the purchase of a G5 and Q6 it brought the price close to a good used G4. I spent a little more but now have a system with a good shelf life. Thanks for all your help.