[Ca$h68]

K. They have the same processor and horribly driver'd video card, the same HD, and the same o/s.

Hrm. My mom still needs a computer, but I was kinda hoping to push her towards the iMac with the superdrive so I can burn some DVDs. Think they'll put a superdrive in an eMac? I'm digging that vast 17" screen.

- Ca$h

[el lindo]

It doesn't make a difference; the emac is for education only. Unless you are a school, you can't buy it.

[keston]

The screen size is about the same 15 inc LCD <-> 17 inch CRT. But you get more desktop space / real estate with the CRt because it can do 1280 resolution, as opposed to 1024 on the iMac LCD.

[Ca$h68]

Mi madre es la teacher.

- ca$h

[mr_sonicblue]

So if cash has an opinion, a new thread must always be opened? Is that how it works? News to me...

[Ca$h68]

Or more like I dont have an opinion on which one is better so I'm asking for other people's opinions........

- Ca$h

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by mr_sonicblue:
<STRONG>So if cash has an opinion, a new thread must always be opened? Is that how it works? News to me...</STRONG>

Hey someone seems to like him as he has been banned a million times and someone at MacNN keeps kissing his *** .

[mr_sonicblue]

Originally posted by Ca$h68:
<STRONG>Or more like I dont have an opinion on which one is better so I'm asking for other people's opinions........</STRONG>

Doh, sorry. I completely misunderstood your post.

Has anyone actually seen one of these things in person? They don't offer education purchasing at the physical stores, so I wouldn't think they would display them there.

[agentz]

If I had the cash and I was buying the machine for use in my house I think I'd choose the iMac, I don't honestly think I'd need the extra screen real estate (geez, I'm mostly using an old iBook at 800x600 just now!), it'd take up far less room in an already crowded place, I'm sure it generates less heat, and well, it looks so cool.

Don't think the Superdrive will be an option in the eMac, but who knows, especially as the damn machine came right out of the blue anyway...

[ringo]

RE: Superdrive...Kind of related question:

Has anyone heard plans of there being an Apple-friendly external DVD-R drive? I'm mostly on portables lately and would like to be able to burn DVD on the go. Anyone?

[palmberg]

Originally posted by Ca$h68:
<STRONG>Mi madre es la teacher.

- ca$h</STRONG>

Clearly, she's not a Spanish teacher.

[Ca$h68]

I know that the superdrive is a regular pioneer drive, so if you can find a firewire case for a cd drive Im prettty sure that would work.

- Ca$h

[Ca$h68]

Originally posted by palmberg:
<STRONG>

Clearly, she's not a Spanish teacher.</STRONG>

Nope. I took 2 years of spanish and sucked at it.

[scaught]

Originally posted by el lindo:
<STRONG>It doesn't make a difference; the emac is for education only. Unless you are a school, you can't buy it.</STRONG>

if you log into the apple education store as a student you can buy it. you dont have to be a school. you just have to GO to school.

[Hawkeye_a]

why couldnt they just put a CDROM in the low end iMac and sell it for $999 ????? This just cripples the product line again. Apple needs to stick to the strategy of 2 Pro machines and 2 Consumer machines(i believe this model will be thought in text books five years from now), but apple keeps cluttering the product line so much, first with the cube, and now this.

Here is what they need to do..... get rid of the old iMacs(15" CRTs), focus on Consumers and Professionals, and then have a complete iteration of the education line with both a portable and a desktop (for institutions). Maybe having them with only CDROMS since most institutions dont want ppl watching DVDs.

[RAzaRazor]

Originally posted by Ca$h68:
<STRONG>I know that the superdrive is a regular pioneer drive, so if you can find a firewire case for a cd drive Im prettty sure that would work.

- Ca$h</STRONG>

iDVD will not work with an external drive. DVD Studio Pro will.




Anyway, the eMac might be a good choice, but other than bad design what does it offer that the iMac doesn't at the same price point?

The resolution doesn't make sense. I always run a 17" CRT at 1280x1024. Apple always manages to find a non-standard bastard resolution...

If money is an issue, go for the low end iMac. If not, go for the high-end iMac.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Ca$h68:
<STRONG>I know that the superdrive is a regular pioneer drive, so if you can find a firewire case for a cd drive Im prettty sure that would work.

- Ca$h</STRONG>

There was a hack a while ago in the OSX - General area about getting DVD features to work on non-supported Macs. I would go for the eMac for the higher resolution. OSX is a Desktop realestate pig.

[nonhuman]

I would go with the eMac because I don't need a SuperDrive, and If I configure the eMac the same way I configure the iMac, I save $200 and gain 2" when I get the eMac. (And being a college student I actually can buy one.)

[TheJoshu]

Originally posted by el lindo:
<STRONG>It doesn't make a difference; the emac is for education only. Unless you are a school, you can't buy it.</STRONG>

Seriously, all you need to know is the name and address of a school, and have the ability/will/desire to lie.

[juanvaldes]

I know I wouldn't have though about it at first but there is a lot to be said for the ability to move the screen where you want it to be. If only the iMac offered a 17" LCD or at least a higher rez until such a time I will just have to get a high end tower

[gorgonzola]

Belongs in the forum formerly known as iMac. Moving...

[Footy]

Originally posted by Ca$h68:
<STRONG> I'm digging that vast 17" screen.

- Ca$h</STRONG>

They're going to piss lots of people off wtth that 17 inch monitor. I see a 17 inch on the iMac in the near future.

lloyd

[juanvaldes]

Originally posted by Footy:
<STRONG>

They're going to piss lots of people off wtth that 17 inch monitor. I see a 17 inch on the iMac in the near future.

lloyd </STRONG>

I think we will have to wait for MWSF for that. Think about it the first bump to the new mac and they are already moving up the screen size? That will add too much cost and will piss of quite a few current iMac owners not to mention it leaves them with less to upgrade later (screen size wise.

[Matsu]

It's really a split decision between the 17" CRT and the 15.1" LCD.

Apple says the VIS is 16" but if all other CRT's are any indication (even the high end ones) then that's slightly optimistic. The VIS (viewable image size) never equals the CRT size, ok so everybody knows that, but also, the stated VIS is ussually a little generous relative to the actual performance. Anyone hoping to get accurate geometry and convergence out to the corners will still have to back off the edges of the VIS a bit. 15.5 to 15.75 max. So in reality we're talking about a half inch difference. The LCD is far easier to look at for long periods of time (flicker free, better contrast, perfect & stable geometry) The CRT scales up and down better and is a smidge faster for games and video.

Remember, also, that the max res for eMac (1280x960) is at only 72Hz. That is the absolute minimum for flicker free performance. Many people will still see flicker at that speed when staring straight at the display and almost anyone will percieve flicker if they look at the display slightly askance. 1152x864@80hz is much more acceptable as you start to get comfortably out of the human ability to detect flicker at that point. And the most comfortable viewing setting will still be 1024x768 because it's at a much more comfortable 89Hz. A lot of people say they can't detect the difference, but they would nonetheless feel the differences. Try extended sittings at 72Hz and then at 85-90Hz, I can virtually guarantee you'll feel less eye strain on the days you use the higher refresh.

So Cash, if your mom's middle aged or older, wears glasses, or spends a lot of time reading text on the internet/typing reports etc, she'll probably be more comfortable with the LCD. And you'll get to burn some DVD's too! The iMac's LCD arm makes for better ergo's too. Good for your posture, neck, back, shoulders, wrists, and especially so for your Mom and Dad.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Ca$h68:
<STRONG>I know that the superdrive is a regular pioneer drive, so if you can find a firewire case for a cd drive Im prettty sure that would work.

- Ca$h</STRONG>

This works for DVD Studio Pro. It doesn't work for iDVD2.
So, if you're on a portable and have a firewire DVD-R drive, you can burn your video, provided you have mastered DVD Studio Pro.

If all you know is iDVD2, you're out of luck. I did hear tell of a patch for iDVD2 that would let it use external drives, but I don't know anything about it, and can't verify that such a thing works.

[waffffffle]

Originally posted by vmarks:
<STRONG>

This works for DVD Studio Pro. It doesn't work for iDVD2.
So, if you're on a portable and have a firewire DVD-R drive, you can burn your video, provided you have mastered DVD Studio Pro.

If all you know is iDVD2, you're out of luck. I did hear tell of a patch for iDVD2 that would let it use external drives, but I don't know anything about it, and can't verify that such a thing works.</STRONG>

At the iPod unveiling in the fall Steve showed iDVD 2 from his TiBook. There was no superdrive to be found. I thought that was interesting at the time.

[austeros]

whoa, did any of you look at the student pricing? yeah i can buy one, but they want 1200+ and 1500+ for them.

logged in for my university, university of illinois. what a rip

[SpeedRacer]

Cash... as a former iMac'er myself and knowing full well how much you may want to go UT on some poor Wintel-user's @$$ is there really a decision here?

The new iMac looks great and for another $600 will give you a nice Superdrive, but WTF not wait another 12 mo's when DVD-R drives drop their price pants like CDRWs did and sell at dealmac for a chump $299?

In the meantime you've got a machine with the ability to scale perfectly between a reasonable 1280 resolution in 2D work and 800 for 3D/gaming junk (no possible via la LCD) which you can dump a cheaper, faster, more versatile DVD-R/W drive onto via Firewire later. And you don't have those annoying Apple Pro Speaker rolling around your desk like you grandpa's favorite bowling ball everytime you bump the the table &lt;end Cube-speaker angst here&gt;.

What folks aren't quite seeing with the machine is that sometimes CRTs (even if older technology) just work better than their more expensive, lower-res, less versatile LCD siblings. The eMac offers everything the iMac does for $300 less, 442368 more pixels, and 18.7 more lbs.

If nothing else at least the eMac finally gives you a dam analog audio input jack!

Speed

[Maneki Neko]

Originally posted by mr_sonicblue:
<STRONG>

Doh, sorry. I completely misunderstood your post.

Has anyone actually seen one of these things in person? They don't offer education purchasing at the physical stores, so I wouldn't think they would display them there.</STRONG>

Do you have a college anywhere nearby? That would probably be your best bet, if you can find one with a halfway decent bookstore or technology center.

[Maneki Neko]

Originally posted by austeros:
<STRONG>whoa, did any of you look at the student pricing? yeah i can buy one, but they want 1200+ and 1500+ for them.

logged in for my university, university of illinois. what a rip</STRONG>

See if you can purchase through your school. I can purchase through my school's technology center, and get the institution pricing.

[Dan Szwarc]

I wonder if someone will figure out how to cram a DVD-R into the eMac case.

Although, since it is education only, I doubt too many of us "other" people (non-students, non-teachers, etc) will ever own or see one.

Neat concept though.

[Oneota]

Originally posted by RAzaRazor:
<STRONG>
The resolution doesn't make sense. I always run a 17" CRT at 1280x1024. Apple always manages to find a non-standard bastard resolution...</STRONG>

Hmm..doing some division, I find that 1024/768 = 1.33333

1280/1024 = 1.25

1280/960 = 1.333333

So it would seem that 1280x1024 is the "bastard resolution", since 1280x960 keeps the same aspect ratio. I run my Apple Studio Display 17" at 1280x960, and much prefer it to 1280x1024.

[Tigerabbit]

Originally posted by vmarks:
<STRONG>I did hear tell of a patch for iDVD2 that would let it use external drives, but I don't know anything about it, and can't verify that such a thing works.</STRONG>

I've seen it listed on Carracho (Napster-like file swapping, Mac-only), usually it's considered war3z.

Originaly posted by austeros:
<STRONG>whoa, did any of you look at the student pricing? yeah i can buy one, but they want 1200+ and 1500+ for them.</STRONG>

Yep, the $999 model is education institutions only and volume purchase only. If you're really determined, you can try to claim home schooling. I wouldn't.

[SirCastor]

Originally posted by Oneota:
<STRONG>

Hmm..doing some division, I find that 1024/768 = 1.33333

1280/1024 = 1.25

1280/960 = 1.333333

So it would seem that 1280x1024 is the "bastard resolution", since 1280x960 keeps the same aspect ratio. I run my Apple Studio Display 17" at 1280x960, and much prefer it to 1280x1024.</STRONG>

My Guess is this is what the card is capable of and what Apple includes with all their OS installations. This Resolution is only appropriate for the TiBook

[Drakino]

Agreed on the resolution part, glad Apple went with the normal 4:3 resolution of 1280x960. I'll run 1280x1024 on my LCD since it is a 5:4 "bastard resolution" one, and also properly scales lower resolutions. But I try to avoid running CRTs at 1280x1024. Damn XP and it's non hackable driver for the old Rage cards, I have to run my work CRT at 1280x1024.

[Miniryu]

Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:
<STRONG>why couldnt they just put a CDROM in the low end iMac and sell it for $999 ????? This just cripples the product line again. Apple needs to stick to the strategy of 2 Pro machines and 2 Consumer machines(i believe this model will be thought in text books five years from now), but apple keeps cluttering the product line so much, first with the cube, and now this.

Here is what they need to do..... get rid of the old iMacs(15" CRTs), focus on Consumers and Professionals, and then have a complete iteration of the education line with both a portable and a desktop (for institutions). Maybe having them with only CDROMS since most institutions dont want ppl watching DVDs.</STRONG>

You are stupid. Why should the eMac fit into Apple's consumer line? IT'S NOT PART OF APPLE'S CONSUMER LINE! It is for educators and students, who purchase their Macs at education-discount prices anyway.

Second, having them with only CD-Roms is studpid since these things are geared towards college students as well as to K-12 markets. College student would like to watch DVDs in their dorm room, and a 5th grade multi-media lab would benifit greatly to have CD-RW machines.

Seeing as how none of the people complaining about the eMacs are affiliated with education in any way I think you should all read a bit before firing off a response. This machine is exactly what people who work in schools have asked for, these are the people that like the machine, and these are the people that are now planning on purchasing these machines. So why would it fail?

[PowerMatt]

Originally posted by Miniryu:
<STRONG>

You are stupid. Why should the eMac fit into Apple's consumer line? IT'S NOT PART OF APPLE'S CONSUMER LINE! It is for educators and students, who purchase their Macs at education-discount prices anyway.

Second, having them with only CD-Roms is studpid since these things are geared towards college students as well as to K-12 markets. College student would like to watch DVDs in their dorm room, and a 5th grade multi-media lab would benifit greatly to have CD-RW machines.

Seeing as how none of the people complaining about the eMacs are affiliated with education in any way I think you should all read a bit before firing off a response. This machine is exactly what people who work in schools have asked for, these are the people that like the machine, and these are the people that are now planning on purchasing these machines. So why would it fail?</STRONG>

very well stated, i hope my school updates their labs with about 40 of these eMacs

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

Originally posted by keston:
<STRONG>The screen size is about the same 15 inc LCD &lt;-&gt; 17 inch CRT. </STRONG>

WRONG!

I don't know where this myth originated, but it's time to squash it.

Fact: Most 17" CRT displays have a 16" viewable area, including the eMac's CRT.

Fact: A 15" LCD display has a 15" viewable area, including the iMac's LCD display.

If you compare the viewable area's between the iMac and the eMac, you will see that the eMac's display has a greater viewable area, an extra inch as measured diagonally. This may not sound like much but it is quite noticable during usage.

The eMac also supports a greater resolution than the iMac; combined with the greater viewable area, this means that the eMac can display MUCH more workspace than the iMac. Many professionals also prefer CRTs for their color accuracy.

I think a convincing argument could be made that the eMac's display is superior to the iMac's display! LOL, time to put a 17" LCD on that iMac, Apple!

[Matsu]

<STRONG>It's really a split decision between the 17" CRT and the 15.1" LCD.

Apple says the VIS is 16" but if all other CRT's are any indication (even the high end ones) then that's slightly optimistic. The VIS (viewable image size) never equals the CRT size, ok so everybody knows that, but also, the stated VIS is ussually a little generous relative to the actual performance. Anyone hoping to get accurate geometry and convergence out to the corners will still have to back off the edges of the VIS a bit. 15.5 to 15.75 max. So in reality we're talking about a half inch difference. The LCD is far easier to look at for long periods of time (flicker free, better contrast, perfect & stable geometry) The CRT scales up and down better and is a smidge faster for games and video.

Remember, also, that the max res for eMac (1280x960) is at only 72Hz. That is the absolute minimum for flicker free performance. Many people will still see flicker at that speed when staring straight at the display and almost anyone will percieve flicker if they look at the display slightly askance. 1152x864@80hz is much more acceptable as you start to get comfortably out of the human ability to detect flicker at that point. And the most comfortable viewing setting will still be 1024x768 because it's at a much more comfortable 89Hz. A lot of people say they can't detect the difference, but they would nonetheless feel the differences. Try extended sittings at 72Hz and then at 85-90Hz, I can virtually guarantee you'll feel less eye strain on the days you use the higher refresh.

So Cash, if your mom's middle aged or older, wears glasses, or spends a lot of time reading text on the internet/typing reports etc, she'll probably be more comfortable with the LCD. And you'll get to burn some DVD's too! The iMac's LCD arm makes for better ergo's too. Good for your posture, neck, back, shoulders, wrists, and especially so for your Mom and Dad.</STRONG>

I just re-quoted myself in response to the idea that a 17" CRT has substatially bigger screen size. 16" VIS may be a FACT, but it's a slightly fudged one. I've never seen a CRT that maintains perfect focus and geometry to the exact edge of even it's stated VIS. When you consider the greatly reduced eye-strain coming from an LCD, and the increased flicker of 1152 and 1280 resolutions on a 17" CRT, you see that the real viewable quality of a 15" LCD is superior to the experience supplied by a 17" CRT.

From the perspective of display quality, even the resolution scaling advantages of the CRT are moot. Elsewhere, someone stated that you can raise the resolution for work and drop it down for play. It makes the least sense to raise it for work, where you are more likely to be affected by the flicker of the screen. If you raise it to play something fast paced (where you'll notice less flicker) then you'll pay a heavy price in frame-rates and slow down. So, unless the higher res has a fast refresh it isn't really great for work, and unless the video card can push a lot of polys and texture a higher ress isn't really good for gaming. The only real advantage of the CRT is better scaling BELOW 1024X768.

Also, the education prices (non-institution) for the eMac isn't that great next to the iMac. Buy the LCD machine, it's better, more efficient, and better for your eyes.

[gumby5647]

maybe its just me, but the eMac just doesn't look right unless it has the stand under it.

dunno....

[Richard Clark]

I'm a former teacher. To be quite honest I'm shocked that Apple wouldn't dumb down the eMac more. A CD-ROM is all that is needed. And to be honest for labs firewire won't be fully utilitzed by every unit. Smaller hard drive or no hard drives are needed. We're talking about using them in schools - networking. Use the netboot with OS X Server and control it from there. The Kids can buy the USB hd pens/keychains that plug into the keyboards if they want to store files somewhere. This would save a TON of money on machines.

In my opinion they should be configured as simple network machines without much pizazz to them (yes speed is needed but not all the extras like I mentioned above). And sell them for $500.00. Also don't allow students to buy this machine - make it strictly for the schools.

I see the reason for the eMac - durability. If schools bought flat panel iMacs they wouldn't survive two weeks (how do I know? - I'm a former teacher.)

I do think somebody at Apple wasn't using their head about screen size. I'm not going to get into or argue about the dimensions / size. All I'm going to say is that they should of been more concious of the consumer. Many have already mentioned that Apple has shot themselves in the foot (or other colorful descriptions).

To be honest - when I heard about the new eMac I had visions of the FrankinMacs that came out just before Jobs returned. Anyone remember those? Is this the Mini-FrankiMac???

Overall I don't mind the way they look. It just would be nice if Apple gave the schools what it needed instead of the extra fat. They would sell a heck of a lot more machines and keep their hold in the education market.

It's going to get interesting .......

[SpeedRacer]

<STRONG>I'm a former teacher. To be quite honest I'm shocked that Apple wouldn't dumb down the eMac more. A CD-ROM is all that is needed. And to be honest for labs firewire won't be fully utilitzed by every unit. Smaller hard drive or no hard drives are needed. </STRONG>

Speak for yourself. Last time i checked education meant more than just K-12. Given that you state you are a former teacher i'll try to clarify things: I work in IT for Higher Ed. Believe me, shipping a machine w/out a CDRW, Firewire, or hard drive is not only bad business for Apple, it's an absurd concept altogether. Why?

• Students are increasing usage of CDR/W media in order to store large Photoshop or video projects - these do not fit on even 250MB Zip media and $.05/CD media is a lot more attractive than $1/disk ZIPs for the average college budget. CDROM machines are good for kiosks. Leave CDRW for the labs and keep the floppies and 16MB pen-drives for the chump PC users.
  
• No Firewire? Are you kidding? Anyone involved in the actual ongoing upkeep of the software for a lab is well aware that Firewire is a godsend. It allows the installation of 2GB of data on a drive in just around 2 min and 34 seconds per machine. Running setup Applescripts post-install allows me to take a completely hosed machine in less than 10 minutes. And if i don't have our VST drive? Run a cheap FW cable between the Mac right next to it, boot the dead Mac into Target Disk Mode, and copy the entire hard drive over in ~ 5 minutes. I've tested this extensively. Not CDs, not 100BT switched networks, not even crossover-cabled gigabit ethernet is as fast and nearly as straight-forward as maintaining lab machines via Firewire. The fact that it's built into *every* Mac made is as important in education now as built-in ethernet was 5 years ago.
  
• No hard drive? Chalk me up to another AYKM? Thank god you'll never see this come out of Apple. Nevermind the fact that Apple is probably only paying another $20 for their cheapo 20GB drives, the idea that every lab in every educational institute across the country is equipped to run off of a network and Netboot is simply ludicrous. As great a concept as it sounds, I know of absolutely ZERO universities using Netboot (or even considering) using Netboot on anything but a specially-designed, brand-new, entirely closed/segregated, and 100% Macintosh switched 100BT network. Which in case you missed that geekspeak, comprises very, very few real-world lab environments. Even if you could get that up and running consistently, think of the hard drive as a $20 liability insurance against the sea of angry questions you'd have from students, teachers, and supervisors in that one rare occasion when your network goes down and every Mac on campus turns into nothing more than a 60lb paperweight.

<STRONG>

In my opinion they should be configured as simple network machines without much pizazz to them (yes speed is needed but not all the extras like I mentioned above). And sell them for $500.00. Also don't allow students to buy this machine - make it strictly for the schools. </STRONG>

eMac - 700mHz/G4/128MB/16"CRT/FW/USB/speakers/nVidiaMX2 - $999

iMac - 500mhz/G3/modem/20GB/128MB/14"CRT/FW/USB/speakers/Rage128 - $699.

Trust me, Firewire, optical drives, and hard drives aren't accounting for the $300 the difference here.
<STRONG>

I do think somebody at Apple wasn't using their head about screen size. I'm not going to get into or argue about the dimensions / size. All I'm going to say is that they should of been more concious of the consumer... Overall I don't mind the way they look. It just would be nice if Apple gave the schools what it needed instead of the extra fat. They would sell a heck of a lot more machines and keep their hold in the education market. </STRONG>

Apple's eMac pages:

This is where you might expect us to say that when we designed the eMac, we started with a blank sheet of paper. The fact is that we didn�t. We actually started the design process with a wish-list of desired features and attributes we put together after talking to scores of educators at schools and colleges around the country.

For example, you asked for a 17-inch screen � while making it clear that you didn�t want to have to buy new desks to accommodate a physically bigger computer. By the same token, you liked the idea of having a supercomputer in the classroom. You wanted your students to have the benefit of a PowerPC G4 processor but, it had to be affordable. You also wished for a computer with a space-saving design � and you insisted on not having to go out and buy new peripherals for it. To this last point, the good news is that thanks to Mac OS X, the eMac works with most of your existing printers and scanners. You can also use your Mac OS 9 applications in Classic mode. (1)

We listened, we paid attention, and we learned. The eMac is the result. We addressed the concerns of educators right down to the tiniest detail. Take the placement of the serial number and Ethernet ID, for example. It may not be a big deal in the corporate world or in homes, but inventory management is an issue in schools and colleges. So to help schools manage inventory, the serial number and ethernet ID are conveniently located on the inside of the optical drive door. And, thanks to the all-in-one design, you have fewer asset management tags to keep track of.

It�s true that the eMac�s design aesthetics are distinctly Apple-like. But the inspiration for the eMac came from you.

Enough said.