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cmeisenzahl · Dec 8, 2005, 09:24 PM

Just found this:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=57

"Now I'm hearing that FireWire is gone completely from the new Intel iBooks that are coming next month, but its loss should come as a surprise to no one, given Apple's moves of late. A little birdy told me that the new Intel PowerBooks will lose FireWire 400 completely and retain only one FireWire 800 port as a concession to video professionals."

slugslugslug · Dec 8, 2005, 11:58 PM

On the one hand, I did find it a little odd that they dropped FW from the nano and the 5G, since it's been just under 3 years since they even started moving to USB 2 on Macs. But on the other hand:

It costs that much less on materials and engineering to only have to deal with one interface on the iPod. More potential iPod buyers probably have USB2 than FW. So if they're gonna pick one, why not USB?
All Macs come with iMovie included. Most DV cameras still use FireWire. If they sold a Mac without FW, they'd be saying, "Check out the easiest home movie software on any platform. But, oh yeah, you can't use it on the Mac you just bought."
Jason O'Grady (who wrote the linked post) runs PowerPage, which used to have the occasional, um, fact. But lately, its record has been about as good as MacOSRumors.com

I don't think they're gonna drop FW.

harrisjamieh · Dec 9, 2005, 02:41 AM

No way, no way, no way, never going to happen. end of story.

TheoCryst · Dec 9, 2005, 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by harrisjamieh

No way, no way, no way, never going to happen. end of story.

Yes, but remember how shocked the world was when the original iMac had no floppy drive AND no PS/2 ports? Apple has never been afraid to prune its systems, while including all-new ones to replace them. Maybe they have something else up their sleeves that they have not shared. After all, they seem to be pretty good at keeping secrets over there. (Intel OS X for four years? Who saw that one coming?)

iREZ · Dec 9, 2005, 05:01 AM

no FW is the stupidest thing apple could do....bye bye iMovie for anybody who doent own a powerbook or powermac according to mac rumors...LAAAAAAAMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

iREZ · Dec 9, 2005, 05:01 AM

double post....

mduell · Dec 9, 2005, 05:12 AM

Maybe we'll see e.SATA in place of the other FW ports; that would be awesome. What do you need more than one FW800 port for?

RevEvs · Dec 9, 2005, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by TheoCryst

Yes, but remember how shocked the world was when the original iMac had no floppy drive AND no PS/2 ports? Apple has never been afraid to prune its systems, while including all-new ones to replace them. Maybe they have something else up their sleeves that they have not shared. After all, they seem to be pretty good at keeping secrets over there. (Intel OS X for four years? Who saw that one coming?)

Lack of PS/2? I think you mean ADB

slugslugslug · 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Maybe we'll see e.SATA in place of the other FW ports; that would be awesome. What do you need more than one FW800 port for?

That depends. Does connecting 1394a & b devices to the same bus throttle the faster ones down to the slower rate? 'Cause if it does, you need more than one b port in case you have a fast device that needs all its speed.

But anyway, the only-FW800 scenario is for PowerBooks. The blog post said that iBooks won't have any FireWire. Again, given that iMovie comes with every Mac and DV camcorders overwhelmingly used FireWire, the post is almost certainly wrong.

Speaking of which, I have this vague recollection of some truly preposterous prediction that O'Grady made in the last year or so, but don't remember what it was.. Anybody rember the last big PowerPage rumor controversy?

Edit: I've been looking around some, and I can't seem to find anything really egregious (as in, "This brand new product with these specs this Tuesday guaranteed!"). I mean they said in March that Apple was developing a really small portable Mac, but didn't give a release date or even say that it would definitely become a shipping product. So I may have to retract a bit of my smack talk if I don't suddenly remember their transgressions..

Ron Goodman · Dec 9, 2005, 01:01 PM

No Firewire, and probably no Open Firmware, means no Target Disk Mode, one of the most useful things Apple offers. Is there any kind of replacement in the works?

Ron Goodman · Dec 9, 2005, 01:01 PM

No Firewire, and probably no Open Firmware, means no Target Disk Mode, one of the most useful things Apple offers. Is there any kind of replacement in the works?

harrisjamieh · Dec 9, 2005, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by TheoCryst

Yes, but remember how shocked the world was when the original iMac had no floppy drive AND no PS/2 ports? Apple has never been afraid to prune its systems, while including all-new ones to replace them. Maybe they have something else up their sleeves that they have not shared. After all, they seem to be pretty good at keeping secrets over there. (Intel OS X for four years? Who saw that one coming?)

Yes but with the floppy disk example and the ps/2 ports, there were alteritives that were widely used. Give me an example of a standard for video capture that is widely used other than firewire? There are none, firewire IS the standard for video capture, end of. If Apple didnt include a firewire port, that would mean they were phasing out firewire (maybe on their entire product line) , which would not happen at this moment in time! Many people use all sorts of macs for video editing, and how they get the video onto the computer in the first place is through firewire!

sheer · Dec 9, 2005, 01:42 PM

A lot of audio interfaces are now firewire (my MOTU 828 for a start) so Apple risk alienating not just video enthusiats and pros. Not good when you're trying to sell your pro software (Logic, Soundtrack, FCPro/Studio, Shake) and hardware to them. Plus there's the Digidesign crowd (who seem to be getting frustrated with Apple and I can see a change in direction there). I see too many people with expensive 3rd party hardware (which doesn't get replaced very often) using Macs for Apple to go and dump one of their (in part) innovations. Plus it's better than USB2 (higher sustained transfer rates with fw HDs for a start). However IIRC usb is an Intel innovation.

slugslugslug · Dec 9, 2005, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by sheer

A lot of audio interfaces are now firewire (my MOTU 828 for a start) so Apple risk alienating not just video enthusiats and pros. Not good when you're trying to sell your pro software (Logic, Soundtrack, FCPro/Studio, Shake) and hardware to them. Plus there's the Digidesign crowd (who seem to be getting frustrated with Apple and I can see a change in direction there)...

That's interesting but I think not as compelling an argument as the camcorder one. FW audio interfaces are expensive, and the people who buy them are on the whole more tech-savvy than the camcorder target market. They probably wouldn't buy an iBook and then later be surprised to find that it doesn't work w/the audio interface they were about to get. Camcorders are supposed to be for anyone with a family (or an amateur pr0n habit). These people are more likely, overall, to buy a computer and then be really cheesed off when they find that it won't work with the oodles of camera models that had already been on the market.

I think if audio-production folks complained about a FireWire-less iBook, Apple would say, "why aren't you people buying PowerBooks to go with that high-end gear?"

Regardless, I don't see the FW iBook happening </broken-record>.

Oh, unless Apple also releases the world's awesomest camcorder ever, with USB2 control. (And no, I don't actually think there's any way that would happen...)

scottiB · Dec 9, 2005, 03:10 PM

My word...this rumor is being spread like wild firewire <rimshot>

Anyway, O'Grady needs some more hits, so he pulls a Dvorak, and talks in broad, inane strokes, and we eat it up. This rumor is bullsh_t. Will. Not. Happen.

If Apple pulls FW from iBooks, Mac minis, and iMacs, then they might as well stop loading them with iMovie.

SpaceMonkey · Dec 9, 2005, 03:12 PM

I think that if (as the rumor suggests) Apple keeps one FW800 port, then they're making the right move by dropping FW400, despite the possible incompatibility this introduces for owners of older iPods. The price of FW800 peripherals has been dropping recently, making it an ever-more reasonable option for people like myself who prefer FW for things like external hard drives (and aren't FW800 ports supposed to be backwards-compatible with FW400 devices?

). At the same time, nudging the Mac platform towards more USB 2.0 standardization helps keep Apple peripherals (like the iPod) priced competitively.

mduell · Dec 9, 2005, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Ron Goodman

No Firewire, and probably no Open Firmware, means no Target Disk Mode, one of the most useful things Apple offers. Is there any kind of replacement in the works?

I don't know of any reason why Target Disk Mode couldn't be done with USB and EFI. I don't know that it will be implmented, but I can't think of any deal breakers.

tooki · Dec 10, 2005, 02:47 PM

I can: USB doesn't work that way. Ever notice how a regular FireWire cable has the same plug on both ends (4 or 6 pin doesn't matter, in this case)? Ever notice how USB cables always have different plugs on each end? It's cuz USB can't work two ways: a gadget is either a USB host, or a USB device. A single port cannot do both (look at USB printers with PictBridge ports: they require two separate USB buses to do it). So to do USB target disk mode, you'd need a whole separate USB controller with a different external port.

At that point, you may as well just do FireWire, which is already pretty much standard on PC chipsets already -- in other words, free.

tooki

Helmling · Dec 10, 2005, 04:05 PM

While I can see why Apple would give up FireWire on the iPods--though I still don't like it--one must hope they would not suddenly forsake one of their key feature advantages.

mduell · Dec 10, 2005, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by tooki

I can: USB doesn't work that way. Ever notice how a regular FireWire cable has the same plug on both ends (4 or 6 pin doesn't matter, in this case)? Ever notice how USB cables always have different plugs on each end? It's cuz USB can't work two ways: a gadget is either a USB host, or a USB device. A single port cannot do both (look at USB printers with PictBridge ports: they require two separate USB buses to do it). So to do USB target disk mode, you'd need a whole separate USB controller with a different external port.

You can buy USB A to USB A cables; there's no requirement that one end be USB A and one end be USB B. While the USB connection is logically host and device, the USB OTG suppliment allows devices to switch roles without a hardware change (it's done in software). I've seen migration kits for Windows PCs that include some software and a USB cable.