[Spheric Harlot]

I agree with your point about different devices for different needs, but with regard to the need for control:

A phone is a fundamentally different device from a computer.

We *expect* to have to administer a computer. And the operating systems have forty years of development behind them, and security concerns are basically known and can be combatted - by software design, updates, and by the users themselves: both through vigilance and through proactive use of protective utilities. And, if all else fails, you can take it off the network, run diagnosis tools, and nuke and pave.

The iPhone is a new platform, with security issues that may not be clear yet, it's a high-profile target with constant network access, there is no sensible way a user can be expected to "administer" it or to run protective utilities or diagnosis tools, and taking it off the network to nuke it is an option that should *never* be necessary (ideally).

It's a phone first and foremost, not a computer. And as such, it's subject to completely different customer expectations, priorities, and perception.

Up until the iPhone, Windows Mobile and Palm dominated the market, both of which were complete geek solutions for a tiny number of weenies who wanted a computer shrunk into their pocket and thus were not much annoyed to have something that needed to be operated like one. (And the BlackBerry, which is geared towards corporate email.)

The iPhone blew that market wide open and completely redefined it in terms of not a geek gadget, but an appliance.

[dpicardi]

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990 

If you honestly think you can type more accurately than me and quicker on an iPhone than a hard-keyboard.....i must then challenge you to a type off.

you are only kidding yourself.

This is a pretty ridiculous thread. The Pre, if it is successful, will not be because it has built in keyboard. It will be because it has legions of followers still hanging on to their palms and the "good old days" of PDAs.

What will likely doom the Pre however is the Sprint network.

Also, I owned a BB for years and would not want to go back to a physical keyboard. I had to use one the other day and I was surprised by how hard I had to push the keys to register a stoke. I have become so accustomed to the light tap of the iPhone I could never go back. And yes, I too am much faster on my iPhone than I was on the BB. Am I faster than you? Who really cares.

If the Pre were coming out on multiple networks or Verizon I think Apple would be a whole lot more concerned. As it stands right now I don't see a lot of people dumping their provider simply to have a Pre. Certainly not to the level people did for the iPhone.

Lastly, until they come up with system that rivals the Apps store, Apple has little to worry about. Apple has made a fantastic piece of hardware and an awesome OS, but it is the Apps Store and the multitude of developers that will continue to propel the iPhone to new heights.

[AppleGirl1990]

Not to knock anyone in this forum, but i run into people daily who have the iPhone and they tell me how they love the iPhone software, but it's difficult to type quickly on. However, it seems that everyone in this thread thinks its a super fast typing machine.

The problem is that i'm talking to Apple Lemmings, many who believe Apple, Inc. can do no wrong. Almost as if you worked for the Company and you are defending it. Look, I'm just as loyal to Apple and when they make a great product like the iPhone...I'm proud too.....but the keyboard is not easier to type on than a full functional hard keyboard. The general population has been saying this from day 1.

P.S. - i (of course) am talking about a full hard keyboard. not the half keyboards which share letters (as SOME Blackberry's have).

[-Q-]

Ah, the old, pathetic standby: when your lame-arsed argument fails, you start attacking the opponent and calling them a 'lemming' or 'apologist.'

Pathetic.

Next time, build a better point.

[-Q-]

Ah, the old, pathetic standby: when your lame-arsed argument fails, you start attacking the opponent and calling them a 'lemming' or 'apologist.'

Pathetic.

Next time, build a better point.

[Simon]

AppleGirl, I'm sorry but you're full of sh!t.

You have absolutely no experience of your own to offer. You have nothing to back up a single claim you made. Instead, you try to lecture a bunch of people who actually use iPhones every day on how somebody told you something about that device. Then when - what a surprise! - nobody gives that any credit you start calling people lemmings.

How about you either back up your claims with some substance or take a bug cup of STFU? You're on a Mac board so obviously you're going to be talking to people who a) use Apple products and b) like Apple products. So please, grow up. If you can't deal with the situation then get the heck out. Simple as that.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990 

The problem is that i'm talking to Apple Lemmings

Oh STFU, you troll.

You have Apple in your name, and accuse other's of fanboiism ? Get outta here.

-t

[AppleGirl1990]

Few Facts to throw out there!

1. The Palm Pre may work with Sprint & VERIZON. So the argument that it's on an inferior network like Sprint are thrown out the door as within 6 months of its launch it's gonna have multiple carriers.

2. Palm's upcoming Pre handset units contain native support for syncing with Apple's iTunes software as if they were built by the iPhone maker itself. Good to know this will work just as good as the iPhone regarding any sync issues.

3. Simon, I use the iPhone all the time (almost 3 times per week for multiple hours a day). Many of my friends have an iPhone and i'm always playing on theirs. So it's not like i don't know what i'm talking about.

4. Q, you can't deny that half the people in these forums would buy anything Apple sells and then claim it to be the best. The fact you are so upset over my statement tells me that you are probably one of these people. I bet you think the Apple Monitor is the best one on the market too? I dare you to venture out and purchase a 3rd party monitor.

5. and Turtle, I thought we had an understanding. Turtle, I am one of the biggest Apple Fanatics on the planet. That's one of many reasons i used Apple in my name. But i won't be BS'd into thinking that the iPhone touchscreen keyboard is awesome. It's been anything but since it was released. And if you did real typing (and i'm talking about multiple paragraphs of many sentences) you would quickly realize that a hard keyboard is better suited.

[0157988944]

4. You really can. In fact, MOST people on these forums are tech-savvy enough not to buy because of brand.

5. I've typed every response in here on my iPod touch (including this one) and did it way faster than I ever have on any BlackBerry.

Clearly YOU think the iPhone keyboard is inferior; power to you. But quoting a "great majority" and saying that people come up to you allt he time talking about how sucky the iPhone keyboard is (do you wear a sign that says "complain to me about iPhone" or something?) is just weak.

[AppleGirl1990]

When did fishercox join this argument?

[0157988944]

... a while back

[AppleGirl1990]

Everyone is so sensitive!

I'll let this thread die down. And in a few months after the release of the Pre and it's sales figures are released, we'll see how much money Apple lost out on.

Till then.......

[Simon]

Right. Clearly because every Pre sold will be because Apple wouldn't listen to you.

[Spheric Harlot]

...and of course, everybody who buys a Pre would have bought an iPhone otherwise.

You could also claim that Pre sales will show how much money RIM lost out on.

[0157988944]

Stop being sensitive, guys.

[Spheric Harlot]

Oh, I just get a kick out of fallacious "logic".

[pcryan5]

Originally Posted by Simon 

It's obvious you don't have an iPhone and hence have no idea what you are taliking ahout. It's preciesely because the iPhone's software KB has built-in error corection that typing accurately is not important. I type like crazy because I don't care about accuracy and mistakes, the iPhone corrects them anyway.

.... errr so we can assume you typed this particular message on your Pre right?

[AppleGirl1990]

Thank you PCryan5

[-Q-]

I'm typing this on my MacbookPro....connected to my 24" Dell LCD. Wrong much?

[0157988944]

Originally Posted by pcryan5 

.... errr so we can assume you typed this particular message on your Pre right?

Do you or AppleGirl have experience with the Pre that makes your argument any more valid?

Besides, there are plenty of other hardware keyboards that work the exact same way... in this argument whether you've used the Pre or not isn't really of much consequence.

[pcryan5]

LOL - WHOA! Just teasing Simon

not joining the (un)great debate!

[Simon]

Originally Posted by pcryan5 

.... errr so we can assume you typed this particular message on your Pre right?

How witty! The discussion was about hardware vs. software KBs. Nobody has any Pre experience here. Straw man argument.

Had you read my posts you'd now that I used Palm Treos for many years before I got an iPhone. I have a lot of experience with both hardware and software KBs. So yes, I am in the position to compare those two types of KBs. Contrary to some other posters here.

[Maflynn]

I have to agree with applegirl about typing on the virtual keyboard vs. a physical one. I use my iphone all the time and I'm pretty proficient in typing it. I found using one finger and banging away the letters appears to be the best approach but I am slower typing on that then when I owned a Blackberry.

With that said, would the iPhone be better with a physical keyboard and a virtual one. No, I think the sacrifices to the design to fit one in would negatively affect the overall design.

Also I know a number of people who use their iPhone quite often and feel the virtual keyboard isn't as good as a physical one.

[Maflynn]

Also I think the Palm Pre could be a hit for palm. I don't think its an iPhone killer, so far as I've read the early reports are the OS could bog down on some applications more readily then the iPhones, the phone feels cheap and plasticy and finally what will certainly hurt them the most.

It will cost people a $100 more then the iPhone. Why in the world would they sell something more expensive on an inferior carrier and expect to unseat apple. Granted they are offering a 100 dollar rebate but you cannot deny the fact that your bank account will be 100 dollars lighter after you walk out the store plus like any rebate program you'll have to wait at least 6 months to get the check.

[Simon]

I think in any event the Pre will determine Palm's future. If it sells well (which I think it probably will) it will give Palm an enormous boost. If OTOH it tanks Palm is history. That in itself should be an awesome motivation for the Palm folks.

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990 

AngelMB: Storm's software doesn't compare to the iPhone, if it did, i would have thrown it into the conversation mix.

For better or for worse everything compares one way or the other.

What do you mean by "Storm's software", software keyboard, available apps or the whole thing?. It is not terrific, not terrible, but a little disappointing for sure.

[AppleGirl1990]

MalFlynn, you rock!
Simon, you are correct....it will sell well and Apple is losing that income (despite what others have said).

[Simon]

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990 

Simon, you are correct....it will sell well and Apple is losing that income (despite what others have said).

Nonsense. How would you now who'd lose that income? Why Apple and not RIM? You're making a balloon statement and it's quite simply wrong.

[Stogieman]

1st Palm Pre review: great OS, poor keyboard

While the removable battery and the compact size of the phone are considered highlights, the plastic construction is regarded as "cheap." The keyboard is especially singled out as being too small for typical hands and having a texture that could prove to be a problem in long-term use.

[Spheric Harlot]

Oh, the irony!

Edit: The original review that the electronista article above is just regurgitating:
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/...lm-pre-review/

[AppleGirl1990]

Oh please. It says the keyboard is small. Did you expect it to be BIG?
Fact remains that it's no different than the small blackberry keyboard.

and Simon, the reason i say the income is lost from Apple (not RIM) is because the RIM software sucks. If you were buying a phone for it's OS, you would get the iPhone. If you were buying a phone for the keyboard, you would get a blackberry. And if you wanted a combo, you get the Pre (or hopefully a future version of the iPhone with a built in keyboard....are you hearing me Apple!).

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990 

Oh please. It says the keyboard is small. Did you expect it to be BIG?
Fact remains that it's no different than the small blackberry keyboard.

No, it says the keyboard is BAD.

Originally Posted by TFA

Keyboard:

It’s really not good. My hands aren’t that big (I can type faster than you could ever dream on a BlackBerry, iPhone or E71) and my thumb literally takes up 3 or 4 keys on the keyboard. There’s less space in between each key than say, a BlackBerry Curve 8300 keyboard, and the texture takes some time to get used to. It’s a rubberized coating kind of like the Centro and Treo Pro, and while the keys are a bit harder (better), the coating could possibly get irritating as usage increases. It’s really such an important area that couldn’t afford to be messed with and we’ll admit it… we’re a little let down. You’re going after the big guns here, and this is kind of disappointing.

You can’t compete with RIM in the keyboard area and you can’t compete with Apple in the soft-keyboard area, so how are people going to enjoy using your product when the data entry isn’t perfection? It’s like buying a brand new Ferrari, but getting an Accord steering wheel. It’s not the end of the world, but it isn’t greatness.

[Salty]

OK Apple Girl, I have a BlackBerry Curve as well as the iPhone. I can type just as fast on each, though the Curve is faster on the bus. The iPhone is fast standing still... but frankly most of the time if I have something to say I don't need to type quite as fast as I do on a computer. In fact sometimes on a computer I actually stop to think of what I'm going to say believe it or not.

Fact is Apple doesn't need the annoying textual spewage market, that market can keep their BlackBerries... most people don't like those people

And I think with the 3.0 software by the time Christmas rolls around both Belkin and Griffin will have hardware slide out keyboards for the iPhone available that'll plug into the dock connector. But the fact is the software keyboard is pretty dang great, and if you get the hang of it you can type just the same way you do on a BlackBerry.

The problem is most of the iPhone users you talk to are probably too lazy to figure out how their phone works.

As for needing to kill Paul, I think if anything Apple would prefer Palm to gain a level of market control over that of Microsoft or RIM. Fact is a former Apple Exec is practically running Palm today. Palm and Apple are pretty well on the same page, and I think both can battle it out for market share and drive each other to improve. I think you're going to also see some good stuff coming from the Android developers. The great thing about the cell phone market is that NOBODY controls the whole shot, the biggest force is Nokia who in Europe are gonna get their ass handed to them by the other manufacturers finally having Android to develop on, and in North America it'll probably end up being RIM and Apple as the major players, with Palm and Android taking 3rd and 4th place in mind share. And yes I do see windows mobile as a joke that needs to die.

I also think in North America Symbian will probably never catch on, I was just training on an E71 the other day and compared to a Blackberry or an iPhone everything is just too confusing to be worth using.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

No, it says the keyboard is BAD.

Why am I not surprised?

-t

[bballe336]

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990 

Oh please. It says the keyboard is small. Did you expect it to be BIG?
Fact remains that it's no different than the small blackberry keyboard.

and Simon, the reason i say the income is lost from Apple (not RIM) is because the RIM software sucks. If you were buying a phone for it's OS, you would get the iPhone. If you were buying a phone for the keyboard, you would get a blackberry. And if you wanted a combo, you get the Pre (or hopefully a future version of the iPhone with a built in keyboard....are you hearing me Apple!).

How can you stick up for a company (palm) that you have insulted multiple times in this thread?

The blackberry OS sucks? Blackberry's are the best selling smartphones of all time, RIM must be doing something right. Maybe they don't play a lot of games but if you do any sort of email or business work on your phone you want a blackberry.

If you had some reasonable statistics then this thread could have lead to a good discussion, however all of your arguments have been based upon your personal opinion (which isn't one that is widely held), and apple isn't hearing you because a hardware keyboard wouldn't garner more sales.

[Simon]

While the removable battery and the compact size of the phone are considered highlights, the plastic construction is regarded as "cheap."

This is something I don't get. Why are they calling the Pre compact? Last time I saw a video clip of it together with the iPhone I was stunned to see it's about twice the thickness of the iPhone. The iPhone surely isn't tiny, but if the Pre is twice as thick it's a monster and nowhere near "compact".

[Spheric Harlot]

It's a lot less wide and less tall, and quite a bit lighter.

I gather from the article that it feels a lot more compact than the iPhone.

[Simon]

Yeah, here we go. Googled the specs.

Palm Pre
Screen: 3.1"
Width: 2.3"
Height: 3.9"
Thickness: 0.67"
Weight: 4.76 ounces

iPhone 3G
Screen: 3.5"
Width: 2.4"
Height: 4.5"
Thickness: 0.48"
Weight: 4.7 ounces

The iPhone is actually (marginally) lighter than the Pre. The width is also about the same. The real difference is the Pre is 0.6" shorter, but 40% thicker.

So by overall volume the iPhone is smaller. By 14% actually.

[Spheric Harlot]

Huh.

[Simon]

Yeah, startling.

[Eyenigma]

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990 

But for serious typing, nothing beats a built in keyboard.

I'll race you. I am faster on the iPhone than I ever was on a Blackberry or Palm Treo. You just have to trust it more. Let your fingers go faster than you think you can, iPhone is pretty good at catching most of your errors.

[dpicardi]

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990 

Everyone is so sensitive!

I'll let this thread die down. And in a few months after the release of the Pre ....

You'll see the Pre was DOA.

The New price of $99 for the 8GB 3G iPhone just cemented its death.

Just watched the CNet Video review of the Pre...guess what one of their biggest complaints was of the device...

Wait for it...

The built in keyboard... Too funny. The review complained that the keys were too small even for her small hands...

[frdmfghtr]

Hardware keyboard...software keyboard...you use what you like.

I would bet money that there will not be a hardware keyboard from Apple anytime soon. Recall from Jobs' initial keynote introducing the iPhone, that one of the biggest FLAWS in smartphones was the hardware keyboard. As long as Jobs runs Apple, there won't be a built-in hardware keyboard as he won't allow a flaw to be purposely added to the iPhone.

As far as lost marketshare goes...would the R&D and manufacturing costs that go with adding a hardware keyboard be made up in additional sales? It may make a small segment of the market happier, but if it's not cost-effective, it won't happen.

[cSurfr]

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990 

Few Facts to throw out there!

1. The Palm Pre may work with Sprint & VERIZON. So the argument that it's on an inferior network like Sprint are thrown out the door as within 6 months of its launch it's gonna have multiple carriers.

2. Palm's upcoming Pre handset units contain native support for syncing with Apple's iTunes software as if they were built by the iPhone maker itself. Good to know this will work just as good as the iPhone regarding any sync issues.

1. You said it yourself. The Pre MAY work with Verizon. . . so 6 or 7 months from now, you can use that as an argument. . . in 2010 when the AT&T exclusive with the iphone runs out, the iPhone too MAY work on verizon. Yipee!

2. Your "syncing natively with iTunes" Is because they reverse engineered the way the iPod syncs with iTunes and used that. If you had read any of the recent news about this, you would see that the Pre tells iTunes that it is in fact, an iPod. Apple can change this at any time... Pre syncing with iTunes. . . Broken.

Keep typing on your Pre, Blackberry, or whatever you choose. But don't think that just because YOU don't like the software keyboard that it's horrible. I've had them all. Treo 650/680, Blackberry 8700/8900/Bold/Storm. None of them compare with the iPhone as far as speed, functionality, ease of use. I was turned off by the blackberry due to lack of tools on the mac. I don't have the desire to install windows on my machine just to update the software on my device. And as far as the Pre. . . well, it was just released, we don't know if and or when there will really be any applications available for it. Why would I leave the 50,000 apps behind for a product that has literally no support right now, save facebook and twitter?

For a hardware keyboard with keys that are smaller than half the size of a Tic-Tac? One that I have to slide open to use? One that has no landscape support what-so-ever? How usefull is landscape mode on the Pre, when I have to turn the phone to type, and then turn it again to use it in landscape? Doesn't that really seem kind of pointless? Do design people even think of things like that?

Enjoy your Pre.

[cSurfr]

One more thing. . . If the software keyboard is so horrible, why do you think that RIM has developed two versions of the Storm? Of course, we all know they failed miserably with their first attempt at the "iPhone Killer", and their next iteration will more than likely fall short as well. There has yet to be one company to dethrone the iPhone, and it's not even about that. Apple wasn't looking for global domination, watch the keynote when it was introduced. If Apple were to make a hardware keyboard, it would go against everything that the iPhone is, and has been from the beginning.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by cSurfr 

One more thing. . . If the software keyboard is so horrible, why do you think that RIM has developed two versions of the Storm? .

I don't think anyone is saying that a virtual keyboard is horrible but rather if done right (and BB has done it right on many of their phones) a hardware keyboard is superior to a virtual one. I don't think putting a hardware keyboard on the iPhone would work and it would destroy its lines, size and usefulness.

[Mike Pither]

Originally Posted by Simon 

You're overestimating yourself.



Because you have barely any typing experience on an iPhone.

I have yet to meet a single person who types a lot on his iPhone and doesn't think it's the fastest typing he's ever done on a phone or PDA. It's just like switching to OS X - once you switch you never go back.

The only people who criticize the iPhone's software KB are people who
a) haven't ever used an iPhone
b) used an iPhone at a store for about 2 minutes
c) go by the name Steve Balmer.

The fact that everybody who uses it heavily loves it indicates Apple got it just right (once again).

a) my boss has one for about a year and still says he prefers his blackberry keyboard.

I also know so one who switched to a Mac with OSX and 6 months later went back to Windows.

I think they are both mad but there are people like them out there!

[::maroma::]

Okay, can we all please stop making statements that "[X] keyboard is superior to [Y] keyboard"? Its purely opinion, nothing more. Just because someone prefers a hardware keyboard over a software keyboard, doesn't make the hardware keyboard superior for everyone else. Its all about whatever you like best.

But now that the cards are on the table for the Pre and the iPhone 3.0, I think the iPhone is still the better player here. The new features really canceled out most of the Pre's bragging rights just a few days before. Palm has a lot of catching up to do still, and as long as Apple stays focused and keeps giving us great new features, I don't see the Pre dethroning the iPhone any time soon. And I don't see any huge sales losses for Apple because the Pre is on the market. The buzz for the Pre died out in less than 2 days after the launch.

I think with 3.0 and the $99.00 3G price point, the iPhone stands to gain even more market share rather than lose market share to the Pre. Apple made the right moves in my opinion.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Mike Pither 

I also know so one who switched to a Mac with OSX and 6 months later went back to Windows.

The exception proves the rule.

[Spheric Harlot]

Users complain about poor Pre hardware | Phones | iPhone Central | Macworld