[macintologist]

I think this is the best one I've seen of yet. It refutes the "Hitler was a leftist' position. Clearly, he was a reationary rightwinger. He's a different type of rightwinger than the fiscal conservatives.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Political science charts and graphs are all trying to reduce something very complex, contradictory, and multidimensional to a simple two dimensional form. A complex and colorful chart is no more predictive than the simple linear left-right scale. In both cases, they are full of assumptions and the author's choices about how to represent what he or she is trying to convey.

In other words, you are looking at an illustration of someone's opinion rendered as a graphic. It's not a tool for deductive proof of anything.

[DBursey]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Political science charts and graphs are all trying to reduce something very complex, contradictory, and multidimensional to a simple two dimensional form. A complex and colorful chart is no more predictive than the simple linear left-right scale. In both cases, they are full of assumptions and the author's choices about how to represent what he or she is trying to convey.

In other words, you are looking at an illustration of someone's opinion rendered as a graphic. It's not a tool for deductive proof of anything.

Very well put.

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by DBursey:
Very well put.

What he ^^^ said.

[budster101]

Yep to what Simey wrote.

[Buckaroo]

Yeah, what Simey said.

[Zimphire]

What everyone said about what Simey said.

[Edit] Graphically that was a pretty chart

[budster101]

Thread is gettting interesting again... (EDIT)

[SimpleLife]

And is that not true for anything falling under classification?

Comparing oranges and apples is simple on the basis of color with binary parameters.

But once we start defining with more specificity and include more parameters, any comparaison using a binary judgement fails.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by macintologist:
It refutes the "Hitler was a leftist' position.

LOL. anybody who claims hitler was a "leftist" is as ignorant as a russian mailorder bride.

not only would you have to be a complete and total idiot to believe this, but also ignorant of the most fundamental underpinnings of political philosophy.

[Millennium]

Trying to once again absolutize the inherently-relative notions of political left and right, I see. And as usual, you're going so far as to try and project "good" on the Left and "evil" on the Right. It's nothing if not predictable.

There is no such thing as a "proper analysis" of political ideologies. They're too complex for that. Any attempt at analysis is going to oversimplify things, pretty much by definition. The current "Left" is by no means the only side guilty of this; its current opposite is guilty, and their predecessors are no better than they. All sides have done this more or less constantly throughout history. It's how they keep people from realizing what a load of crap the whole game is and just thinking for themselves for a change.

[budster101]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
LOL. anybody who claims hitler was a "leftist" is as ignorant as a russian mailorder bride.

not only would you have to be a complete and total idiot to believe this, but also ignorant of the most fundamental underpinnings of political philosophy.

Anybody here,



I guess someone should have told Hitler. ](Link)

There are a number of links, but you go and Google it yourself. I'm sure you'll find many others to support your claim...

So, tell me more of this political philosophy thingy... oh forgot, LOL.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by budster101:
So, tell me more of this political philosophy thingy... oh forgot, LOL.

sure.

hitler hated "international socialism" probably more than he hated jews. see, what you, and a lot of neo-conservatives, don't get, is that an absolute essential part of leftist ideology involves a sense of international solidarity. and this makes NATIONAL socialism the exact opposite of (international) socialism.

sure, it's easy to pick and choose in order to formulate a bullsh!t argument about political history (neocons seem to do this all the time). but unfortunately (for them) there are history books, and they are full of hitlers "statements" concerning his feelings about the "left".

oh, yeah, and here (glad to be of service):

linky [in german]

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by budster101:
Anybody here,



I guess someone should have told Hitler. ](Link)

There are a number of links, but you go and Google it yourself. I'm sure you'll find many others to support your claim...

So, tell me more of this political philosophy thingy... oh forgot, LOL.

That is what we call a "wolf in sheep's clothing".

A rose is a rose by any other name but appearances are always misleading I suppose.

[Zimphire]

Yeah Just like the left say Hitler was a Christian too..

I know how it goes.

[budster101]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Yeah Just like the left say Hitler was a Christian too..

I know how it goes.

Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda, noted:


"The Fuhrer is deeply religous, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race... Both [Judaism and Christianity] have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end, they will be destroyed."

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by budster101:
Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda, noted:


"The Fuhrer is deeply religous, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race... Both [Judaism and Christianity] have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end, they will be destroyed."

Adolf Hitler: �Ich tue nur, was die Kirche seit f�nfzehnhundert Jahren tut, allerdings gr�ndlicher.� (Aus "Mein Kampf" )

Adolf Hitler: �Der Nationalsozialismus ist weder antikirchlich noch antireligi�s, sondern im Gegenteil, er steht auf dem Boden eines wirklichen Christentums.� (Anm.d.Red.: kirchlichen Christentums)

�So glaube ich heute im Sinne des allm�chtigen Sch�pfers zu handeln: Indem ich mich des Juden erwehre, k�mpfe ich f�r das Werk des Herrn.� (Der Katholik Adolf Hitler)

Ich bewundere das Christentum und werde es f�rdern. (Adolf Hitler zu Bischof Berning)

Es ist strenge Gewissenspflicht eines jeden Christen, das entartete Judentum zu bek�mpfen. (Bischof Gf�llner von Linz, 20. Jh.)

Wir verkennen manches Gute der neuen Weltanschauung (der Nazis) nicht. Wir finden aber beim n�heren Zusehen, dass es in ihrem Besten Kopie des Christentums ist. (Der Erzbischof von Freiburg Konrad Gr�ber an den Papst, 1944)

Ich w�nsche dem F�hrer nichts sehnlicher als einen Sieg. (Papst Pius XII.)

http://www.kirchenopfer.de/dieopfer/konzilsbeschluesse/

[Zimphire]

Roberto, it's a known fact Hitler was trying to do away with Christianity.

[Dimethyltrypt]

So what is wrong with the chart. I think it was one of the best left/right chart I've seen.

[DBursey]

The chart was a real treat graphically, though I thought someone could have photoshopped in the lens flare effect, fer old times sake.

Ditto to what everyone's saying about what simey said, as well as their concurrence with my views on said sayings, as earlier said.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by DBursey:
Ditto to what everyone's saying about what simey said, as well as their concurrence with my views on said sayings, as earlier said.

Say again?

[budster101]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:

schwach

(Link)

Here is your, how do you learned people say in German? Proof...

JA

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by budster101:
/unqualifizierter schwachsinn...

fresse!

linkster

[Anders]

Originally posted by budster101:
schwach

(Link)

Here is your, how do you learned people say in German? Proof...

JA

Note the use of superscript. Clearly a forgery.

Joking aside. Hitler doesn�t fall into the categories of left and right so noone can say "he was your man".

As some said above its just too simple to try to frame ideas like above. The classic way of organizing ideology, at least here, is in three poles, liberalist, socialist and conservative and even that picture is too simple...

[Millennium]

Hitler's actual religious beliefs are difficult to classify. He was not Christian himself, but was not above manuipulating the Christian churches of his day in order to win support for his cause; he used them as another form of propaganda. The claim that he was trying to do away with Christianity may have some truth; he doesn't seem to have made any efforts to do so in his day, but given his public views on the subject it would probably have been one of his next targets after the Jews.

Whether or not Hitler was actually atheist is unknown, but he was known to be heavily into the occult.

Was Hitler 'right' or 'left'? Truth be told, he was neither. His ideology contained many elements which both sides might lay claim to, but when everything is taken together he fit none of the 'right' or 'left' patterns from before or since his day. He was his own entity, an original thinker. He was insane, and his views were twisted because of that, but they were his views, and no one else's. Although this wasn't a new concept, it wasn't common enough that people were equipped to deal with it. He could credibly sell himself to all sides of the spectrum, by playing up those beliefs of his which resonated with their own while downplaying those which did not. That's how he was able to take and keep the kind of power he did; everyone on every side thought he was theirs. It was a dishonest tactic, but an extremely effective one.

So no, he's not the Left's man, and he's not the Right's man. But for those of us who stay out of that game, he's our man. He's probably the darkest example to date of what truly original political thought can be and do. Does that mean that original thought isn't worth the risk? I don't think it means that. But it is something that anyone who tells both sides to go **** themselves is going to have to deal with.

[bubblewrap]

He was able to play both sides. Then take complete control.
Those who can control both sides are the most dangerous.
There is no balance.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Hitler's actual religious beliefs are difficult to classify. He was not Christian himself, but was not above manuipulating the Christian churches of his day in order to win support for his cause; he used them as another form of propaganda. The claim that he was trying to do away with Christianity may have some truth; he doesn't seem to have made any efforts to do so in his day...

very astute analysis (as usual). i believe though that he was at least in principle influenced by-, and favorable of some aspects of christianity.

which of course in no way reflects on christianity in and of itself.