[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

/facepalm

They're the Democratic Party, but they not been democratic for years.

Isn't our democracy centered around our constitution? You could make the argument that the Neocons have not been upholding the constitution, couldn't you? But, that would just contribute to the noise that is pointless and unproductive conversation, so I'll shut up...

[Shaddim]

One could also make the point that the Neocons aren't actually Republicans.

At this point, I just want to dig up Goldwater and prop him up in the Oval Office, even in his present state he'd do a better job than the 3 currently running (or the one holding the job, for that matter).

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

the Democrat party

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

It's the Democratic Party, by the way.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

they wish.

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

No, that's the name of the party.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

/facepalm

They're the Democratic Party, but they not been democratic for years.

Ah, the PL at it's best.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

they wish.

I think it's pretty apt, actually. Democracy is defined by Aristotle as one of the corrupt forms of government because it's a rule by mob system. The Framers detested Democracy because they held that classic view of it. Democrats are often demagogic populists who seek to give in to the base demands of the electorate.

It's the Republican party that sadly hasn't lived up to its name.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It's clear that you only listen to the liberal media. The actual name of the party is the Dimeocrat party.

Dimetapp Party?

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

They're the Democratic Party, but they not been democratic for years.

Democracy is mob rule. Since they control the House & Senate, I'd say it's pretty accurate.

I find it interesting that the Democratic Party's namesake and symbol were adopted from insults by the Whig party.

[besson3c]

Oh yeah, well the Republicans and Neocons *suck* and can't do anything right except mess up this country...

I think this post is apt to this rapidly devolving conversation...

P.S. you suck too.

[Shaddim]

Someone hasn't had his nap time.

[besson3c]

You're a nap.

[Shaddim]

From what I can tell, you're just a comment or two away from the mods singing you a lullaby.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Heh, I'm sure you had negative things to say about the Wright situation prior to this week's events, right? So, in other words, there is really nothing Obama could have done that would have avoided your criticism of this issue.

ha ha ha... read the whole thread again.

Obama could have denounced Wright from the start of the controversy. I said that about a half dozen times but I guess your reading comprehension is struggling again. Hell, he could have just addressed the congregation or even just his local constituency any time while he represented that community and avoided this situation.

If he had done ANYTHING that supported the ideals he claims to represent it would have gone a long way to show he had some actual conviction in those ideals.

No one actually believes that Obama was unaware of some of these controversial and divisive speeches Wright gave. Wright even acknowledged Obama spoke to him about the need to distance himself because of them at some point. Nothing Wright said this week was a departure from what he said in the past. In fact everything that precipitated yesterday's events was just Wright's explanation of his previous comments. Hardly new material to Barack.

Obama could not have only avoided my criticism but this whole mess if he just lived up to the standard he himself tells the public he embodies. Instead he showed an inability to stand up for those principles until he was shoved into the corner.
If he couldn't show leadership in front of one man who was like family to him even once over the course of 20 years it doesn't speak well of him or his character.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I fully respect your opinion, and I would love it if we could actually talk about those substantive issues that you disagree with. I feel like a knuckle dragging, bottom feeding simpleton sometimes in hashing out these political gaffes with you guys on this board, but at the same time I'm oddly compelled to them... Perhaps it's the stopping to look at a car wreck sort of thing.

This is the second time you've claimed that you'd actually like to discuss something more profound. You made leaps of conjecture regarding my distaste for Obama's candidacy as if I had some larger problem with facing race issues head on. I gave you a very thorough and thoughtful presentation of my problem with the rhetoric having had very personal experience and you essentially had nothing to say.

If you'd like to stop dragging your knuckles, simply pick them up from the ground. I'll be the lonely one walking around here with an upright gait when you're ready.

[Gee-Man]

Once again, The Onion is strangely prophetic in political matters:

POLL: BS Is The Most Important Issue for 2008 Voters

[Chongo]

It looks like this is going to have to be decided in Denver, after the first ballot
My Way News - Obama closing in on Clinton's advantage among superdelegates

WASHINGTON (AP) - Barack Obama is closing in on Democratic presidential rival Hillary Rodham Clinton's advantage among superdelegates, building on his lead in the primary race even as he faces troubled times.

Obama backer predicts victory in Hill war - Amie Parnes and Josephine Hearn - Politico.com

Capitol Hill insiders say the battle for congressional superdelegates is over, and one Senate supporter of Barack Obama is hinting strongly that he has prevailed over Hillary Rodham Clinton.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

This is the second time you've claimed that you'd actually like to discuss something more profound. You made leaps of conjecture regarding my distaste for Obama's candidacy as if I had some larger problem with facing race issues head on. I gave you a very thorough and thoughtful presentation of my problem with the rhetoric having had very personal experience and you essentially had nothing to say.

If you'd like to stop dragging your knuckles, simply pick them up from the ground. I'll be the lonely one walking around here with an upright gait when you're ready.

Well, I've asked several questions in this very thread about race, and nobody seems to have taken an interest in them, so I was sort of writing them off... Are you interested in responding to some of them?

[Chongo]

ABC News: Hillary Ally Switches to Obama; Expects Clinton 'Attack Dogs'

A former leader of the Democratic Party who last year endorsed Hillary Clinton with lavish praise has switched to Barack Obama — and now predicts that the Clinton "attack dogs" will be after him.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Well, I've asked several questions in this very thread about race, and nobody seems to have taken an interest in them, so I was sort of writing them off... Are you interested in responding to some of them?

Sure, I just ask that you not make me read through the entire thread to find them. Please ask them again and I will be more than happy to respond. For example, I found this on the last page;

I kind of hope that he does and gets people actually talking about race in a meaningful way, building on what Obama started with his race speech in Philly. It is nothing short of disgusting how the media/political opponents of Obama have turned Wright into a fanatical, angry, anti-American, anti-white person cult-like figure. I'm glad that Obama didn't denounce him, because there was nothing to denounce.

Obama did denounce Wright because as it turns out, the more Wright spoke in clarifying his initial messages, the more apparent it became that he is an absolutely fanatical, angry, anti-American, anti-white person cult-like figure. Wright's "ministry" was great for Obama's face-time in the black community, but it has now become a political liability. I've had the opportunity of listening to larger portions of his sermons and I found it interesting there was no Bible on his pulpit and no reading of any passages or claiming any biblical principle. His institution (the one that gave him a couple of mercedes among other things) is a cover for a political movement. One that Obama participated in for 20 years. I think it is disgusting too, but for completely different reasons. If you actually listen to full excerpts of Wright's sermons in context they become worse, not better. There is no excuse. There is no twist, no spin, and no defense evidenced by the lack of an ability to defend them in this forum. All I hear is; "they were taken out of context" when in context, they're twice as bad. These are messages of hopelessness, anxiety, hatred, and division. They are fruitful to no one, especially the black community.

The very fact that there are so many knee jerk reactions about Wright in and of itself is excellent rationale behind why we as a nation do need to start talking about these issues in productive ways. It is wrong to tear somebody like Wright down for trying, it is time we stopped pretending that this issue doesn't exist.

The "knee-jerk" reactions are very real and legitimate reactions to Wright's rhetoric. I have no problem discussing these issues in productive ways unfortunately, there is nothing productive about Wright's delivery. I tear people like Wright down because they are tearing down hundreds every Sunday.

[Eug]

If you DON'T have a swift "knee jerk" reaction to Wright's histrionics, then there's something wrong there. The guy is a loon.

[Macrobat]

Chongo, I think alot of that is behind-the-scenes arm-twisting by Dean & Co. They are constantly in the news biatching about how they want this primary over.

[lefty mclefty]

loon like a fox! and not that "news" channel you love so much...you people don't get it...the right, and specifically this administration, with the help of a majority in the senate and house for 6 years, have turned this country upside down, shaken it, and scooprd up all the goodies...in november, the people will speak... barack hussein obama!!!

[glideslope]

Screw all of you brainwashed Boomers, and generation WTF'ers. I'm voting for Ralph, and I don't give a **** who he draws votes from. So there!!!!!

[Buckaroo]

[Chongo]

I love this pic. From a German parade

[lefty mclefty]

stick a fork in him, he's done....with clinton!!! barack hussein obama, the next president of the usa!!! boo yaaa!

[Big Mac]

Barf.

[lefty mclefty]

you haven't lost your lunch until NOW???? the last 7 years have been a hurl fest!!! every day, a different scandal, a civil liberty removed, an atrocity committed against man and/or nature...you need to open your mind, your eyes, feel the change, embrace it!!! i will help you through it

[Chongo]

[lefty mclefty]

thats a nice change from cheneys snear, no?..... you've seen the bumper stickers: "mean people suck"...it's true!!!

[besson3c]

The one thing that these primary results confirm is that the most effective attacks against Obama involving Reverand Wright were not really all that damaging.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The one thing that these primary results confirm is that the most effective attacks against Obama involving Reverand Wright were not really all that damaging.

My older brother, who hate Obama and worships the Clintons, told me to search YouTube for Larry Sinclair. He is angry none of the networks are running that story.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The one thing that these primary results confirm is that the most effective attacks against Obama involving Reverand Wright were not really all that damaging.

Actually, I think Obama lost Indiana because of Reverend Wright. Exit polls suggested a fair number of people said it factored into the decision, and Clinton still only won 51:49.

[ink]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Actually, I think Obama lost Indiana because of Reverend Wright. Exit polls suggested a fair number of people said it factored into the decision, and Clinton still only won 51:49.

That, and Operation Chaos. Dittoheads could have easily made the 1-point difference; folks that will never vote for a DNC candidate in the general election anyway.

[OAW]

So in addition to leading in the popular vote, the number of states won, and and the pledged delegate count, it appears Obama has now taken the lead in the super-delegate count as well.

ABC News: Two Firsts: Obama Leads in Superdelegate Tally, Hillary Uses Race Card

Yeah, the Obama campaign is "toast" alright.

OAW

[spacefreak]

Looks like Obama is going to buy off Hillary and help her retire her campaign debt.

EDIT: Obama supporters miffed at plan.

Obama Wont Rule Out Easing Clinton Campaign Debt - The Caucus - Politics - New York Times Blog

[l008com]

You can't stop the "change" express.

[Eug]

Obama friend, fundraiser on trial for corruption in US - Yahoo! Canada News

CHICAGO (AFP) - A long-time friend and fundraiser of presidential hopeful Barack Obama was accused by prosecutors Monday of using his political clout to demand kickbacks, win government contracts and place associates in key state jobs.
ADVERTISEMENT

While Obama is not accused of any wrongdoing and has subsequently donated all the money raised by alleged influence-peddler Antoin "Tony" Rezko to charity, prosecutors have said that some of the kickbacks ended up in the Illinois Democratic senator's campaign coffers.

Obama is also under fire for entering a land deal with Rezko in 2005 when it was widely known that the real estate developer was under federal scrutiny, something Obama later called a "boneheaded" move.

The Rezko dealings have dogged Obama as he vies for the Democratic presidential nomination but have not yet had a major impact on his campaign.

That could change if Rezko is convicted of 24 counts of fraud, solicitation of bribery, attempted extortion and money laundering.

So does the above matter, or is it irrelevant?

My read of that is that it does matter, but not very much.

[besson3c]

Anything that creates the appearance of impropriety is relevant to some extent, but appearances don't always equal reality (especially when they are being pushed at the drum beat of somebody with a political agenda), and most importantly, the amount of coverage that a news organization like CNN tends to offer this stuff is nowhere close in proportion to the importance of this story.

Politicians do this sort of stuff (maybe sometimes unknowingly or unintentionally), but in the great list of possible scandals that actually make a difference to the American citizen, this one ranks pretty low. I actually think that legal sex scandals like having gay sex with a consenting adult in a bathroom also rank really low, so long as this individual is not simultaneously trying to author bills that go after gays that have sex

I'm sure we'll be hearing about these sorts of things for several months now. McCain has some of these same sorts of liabilities which I'm sure somebody has queued up. Oh joy, oh bliss! I hope the media shows some restraint this time around in refraining from sensationalizing, but I'm very pessimistic.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Can someone esplain something to me please: when the Wright thing first came up, Obama denounced the comments, but refused to denounce the man, and that's what he took flack for. Then when Wright went off the deep end last week (or whenever it was), Obama made some stronger denunciations, but he still explicitly referred to the comments or the words, not to Wright himself, and people accused Obama of changing his position, or not doing that in the first place. What's the difference? Did he actually say "Wright's a bad man" the second time and I just missed it?

[l008com]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Obama friend, fundraiser on trial for corruption in US - Yahoo! Canada News

CHICAGO (AFP) - A long-time friend and fundraiser of presidential hopeful Barack Obama was accused by prosecutors Monday of using his political clout to demand kickbacks, win government contracts and place associates in key state jobs.
ADVERTISEMENT

While Obama is not accused of any wrongdoing and has subsequently donated all the money raised by alleged influence-peddler Antoin "Tony" Rezko to charity, prosecutors have said that some of the kickbacks ended up in the Illinois Democratic senator's campaign coffers.

Obama is also under fire for entering a land deal with Rezko in 2005 when it was widely known that the real estate developer was under federal scrutiny, something Obama later called a "boneheaded" move.

The Rezko dealings have dogged Obama as he vies for the Democratic presidential nomination but have not yet had a major impact on his campaign.

That could change if Rezko is convicted of 24 counts of fraud, solicitation of bribery, attempted extortion and money laundering.

So does the above matter, or is it irrelevant?

My read of that is that it does matter, but not very much.

Isn't this old news?

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Can someone esplain something to me please: when the Wright thing first came up, Obama denounced the comments, but refused to denounce the man, and that's what he took flack for. Then when Wright went off the deep end last week (or whenever it was), Obama made some stronger denunciations, but he still explicitly referred to the comments or the words, not to Wright himself, and people accused Obama of changing his position, or not doing that in the first place. What's the difference? Did he actually say "Wright's a bad man" the second time and I just missed it?

There was no contradiction. YouTube - Fox News Creates Obama Contradiction That Isn't There?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Can someone esplain something to me please: when the Wright thing first came up, Obama denounced the comments, but refused to denounce the man, and that's what he took flack for. Then when Wright went off the deep end last week (or whenever it was), Obama made some stronger denunciations, but he still explicitly referred to the comments or the words, not to Wright himself, and people accused Obama of changing his position, or not doing that in the first place. What's the difference? Did he actually say "Wright's a bad man" the second time and I just missed it?

The difference is that before, Obama tried to say that the comments were taken out of context and he still knew Wright was basically a good guy and he wasn't going to turn his back on Wright or anything. But after Wright started with his super-crazy talk about the government genetically engineering HIV and suggested that Barack believed the same things, Obama said that Wright was no longer the same man he respected and strongly implied that he was going to cut ties. ("Whatever relationship I had with Wright is changed" were his exact words.)

[Captain Obvious]

Seriously?

Why can't his surrogates leave well enough alone? Do they really think its a good idea to inflame the public right before the DNC has to hold hearings on Florida and Michigan and there are just a few remaining primaries?

Not only will Fr. Lets-pretend-I'm-black get play on today's news cycle but tomorrow the Chicago archdiocese will have to chime in giving the story legs through the weekend.

Masochists. Every single one of them.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Just be prepared for your party to lose BIG in November, Besson.

Whoops...

[l008com]

Doh. Excellent thread resurrection!

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

[swrate]

A toast for Obama!


Congratulations America!

[Powerbook]

Like a German newspaper said:

Obama won, because he connected the people, positively and with the intent to unite. The hate mongers on the GOP campaign (not so much McCain himself, but he did not have full control) simply went on with the old division rhetorics they have been doing for decades.
Finally this time people in the U.S. did not let themselves being swiftboated!

PB.