[l008com]

So I had a thought for a 'better' transfer case & transmission system. It was born out of my desire to have a 2-low in my S10. When you're towing a boat up a steep but paved surface, the low range would be nice, but 4WD in trucks like that is for off-road use only.

So anyway, a typical truck has what my truck has. A 4 speed automatic transmission, connected to a 3 setting transfer case. You have 2 high, 4 high and 4 low. Pretty nifty. But when you think about it, 2 low could be handy. You wouldn't use it THAT much, but you don't use 4 low very much either. And why is the transfer case dealing with highs and lows, isn't that the transmission's job.

So here's what I thought of that would be a much better setup. A simpler transfer case. Just 2 and 4. No gear reduction at all, just a straight 1:1 in and out, all it would do would be to disable and enable 4 wheel drive. Then we have the transmission. Take 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear out of the current four speed, and make them 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th in a 5-speed automatic. Then for 1st gear, give it an extra low first gear. Transmissions have those fancy computer chip thingies in them these days. So the transmission could simply not use 1st gear when you were in drive. It would just use 2nd and up like it was a 4 speed. Then when you used the primary gear shifter, to switch from regular drive to low drive, THEN the transmission would use 1st gear. And ideally, it would totally adjust it's shifting curve to give you an overall much lower-geared experience.

I feel like that would be a much better and much more logical setup for a basic pickup/truck-style-suv with 4 wheel drive.

I would be interested to see what the gear ratios are of my 4 speeds in high and in low. I've been doing a lot of research into Internally Geared Hubs for mountain bikes, and one thing I've learned is that when you take out the duplicate gears in a 27 speed bike drive train, you have a lot fewer gears than you think you had. I suspect my setup would be more efficient since you're only going through one gear reduction and not two. But there's a lot going on in these systems to that may not really be the case.

[imitchellg5]

There have been vehicles with 2LO. I believe that the early '90s F-250s had it, and I'm pretty sure that my dad's '89 Ranger had 2LO.

I don't think your suggestion about the transmission would work, a transmission can't do the job of a transfer case per se.

[l008com]

What do you mean? The only job the transmission would be taking from the transfer case, is the extra gear lowering. And I know a transmission can do gearing, cause thats what they do. There would still be a transfer case to deal with, transferring. I've never seen a truck before that had 2 lo. But yeah I wouldn't be surprised if there were SOME. But there are few.

[bstone]

I had a 1989 Chevy S10 Blazer as my first car. I loved it. I sometimes used 4HIGH and never used 4LO except for when I wanted to see what it would do.

[Phileas]

My 1964 Landrover had 2High/4High/2LO/4LO. 2W/4W and High/LO were controlled by two different levers, independent from each other. I never saw the need for 2LO, whenever I wanted to get stuff done I just dropped into 4High.

I think I only ever once dropped into 4LO, that was on a steep hill during a blizzard. I had no problem getting up there, but I had been forced to pull over and stop by a number of cars sliding back down the road. I was in deep snow and dropped into 4Low to make sure I was getting enough traction without the wheels spinning. Locking the diff also helped of course, together with the original off-road army tires.

The look on the other driver's faces was priceless, as the old Landy pulled up that street as if on rails while everybody else was sliding into trees, ditches, each other...

[l008com]

Lo isn't really for snow anyway. 4 high gives you just as much traction, and 4 low is going to make it easier for your tires to slip. low range is for off-roading, or heavy hauling, or both. The last time I used 4-low, was when I had to back my boat & trailer up to the top of a dirt hill that was covered in pine needles. The super low gear muscled right through. But you can't use 4 wheel drive on pavement (not the kind of 4wd trucks have), so if this hill was paved, it would have been nice to have a 2 low.

[ChrisF]

Originally Posted by l008com 

But you can't use 4 wheel drive on pavement (not the kind of 4wd trucks have), so if this hill was paved, it would have been nice to have a 2 low.

You can certainly use 4WD on pavement; the concern is that as part time systems have no center differential, you'll cause undue wear on the driveline trying to steer around corners. Towing a boat straight up a ramp is not going to be a problem and it's done all the time.

[l008com]

Originally Posted by ChrisF 

You can certainly use 4WD on pavement; the concern is that as part time systems have no center differential, you'll cause undue wear on the driveline trying to steer around corners. Towing a boat straight up a ramp is not going to be a problem and it's done all the time.

That would work great on well-designed boat ramps. The person who designed the boat ramp I use, didn't realize that you have to turn around before you can back into the water. And you have to do a sharp 90° turn before you're on level ground. It's also not very steep so I don't need low range anyway for my little boat, but I'm just saying. 'Round these parts, theres really no such thing as a straight road or ramp or driveway.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by l008com 

Then for 1st gear, give it an extra low first gear. Transmissions have those fancy computer chip thingies in them these days. So the transmission could simply not use 1st gear when you were in drive. It would just use 2nd and up like it was a 4 speed. Then when you used the primary gear shifter, to switch from regular drive to low drive, THEN the transmission would use 1st gear.

A 1st "granny gear" was common on manual transmission in pickups. It was common to start out in second.

[sek929]

My father's old 88 F150 had a first gear that was certainly a 'creeper' gear. You could easily start the truck off in 2nd, unless it was filled with trash or staging...which it often was.

Correct me if I'm wrong, which I usually am, but isn't the 'tow' button on most 2WD vehicles more or less a 2LO setting? Our work van has a trailer button that you are supposed to turn on when carrying weight and I assume it lowers the gearing somehow.

Another thing about driving in 4WD on pavement. I had my Sonoma set to 4HI without noticing it for a half hour or so on dry roads and the transfer case ended up getting stuck in 4WD, it did not want to switch back. I had to let the truck cool down for a bit before I could coax it out of 4HI.

[l008com]

I think most "tow" buttons are just a software thing. It shifts the transmission later, keeping it in lower gears longer, which should make it easier to tow. Also usually only full size trucks have that tow option. Man oh man I wish my S10 had that. Towing on the highway is not easy. I really wish the truck had those goofy paddle shifters for a 'manual-like' experience. Those are lame in cars, but they would be really good in a tow vehicle.

[sek929]

My Sonoma is always upshitfting incredibly early. I think it has something to do with attempting to make the fuel economy less horrible but it can be a real pain at highway speeds when I have to slam on the accelerator just to get a downshift. I've never towed anything with it, but I have put close to the max payload weight many times and though the engine has plenty of power to move it around the gearing can be so damn annoying.

[OreoCookie]

Color me stupid, but why won't the 4 Low setting work just as well (or perhaps better since the power is transferred to four wheels instead of two)?

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Color me stupid, but why won't the 4 Low setting work just as well (or perhaps better since the power is transferred to four wheels instead of two)?

Originally Posted by ChrisF 

You can certainly use 4WD on pavement; the concern is that as part time systems have no center differential, you'll cause undue wear on the driveline trying to steer around corners. Towing a boat straight up a ramp is not going to be a problem and it's done all the time.

Originally Posted by l008com 

And you have to do a sharp 90° turn before you're on level ground.

.....

[glideslope]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

A 1st "granny gear" was common on manual transmission in pickups. It was common to start out in second.

Had a 78 Bronco 351W with a Granny Gear 1st. 1st in 4Lo was unbelievable. I had 31X12 A/T's on it. I'd swear when I dropped the psi down to 20lbs on pavement I could pull the garage off my parents house!

[phantomdragonz]

It's not feasible for a production car manufacturer to add that to their vehicles because of the risk of breakage, or the added cost of making the rear driveline withstand that much torque. If you find yourself needing to go into low range to tow something with a light duty truck (Even an F350 is technically a light duty truck) you should be using a medium duty or larger truck. and even then 4wd low is what you want because the sheer weight of the truck will not provide enough traction and you will end up spinning all 4 tires in 4low if you cant tow it in 2/4hi. 4low is for slow technical movements, not for towing ability.

Aftermarket solutions are available for the offroading community, Something I know a decent deal about.
all jeep wranglers (excluding the rubicon) have an aftermarket part that will give them that capability
Toyota trucks with the 4cyl gear driven transfer case can have that ability (I have it in my truck)
There are probably others but thats all I know about.
Advance Adaptors Atlas transfer case line has the ability to do 4 low in the front or the rear or both, handy for very technical rock crawling.

To touch on some points here, oreo cookie and laminar are pointing it out well, but here is the rub. YOU CAN TURN AND DRIVE IN 4WD ON PAVEMENT!!! it does create bind, it does increase wear on parts but the truck is built so that it can withstand it, just dont do it all the time or you will have premature failure due to wear.

so if you need to run up a boat ramp in 4low and turn 90* DO IT, you should not have any failure of your truck.

For example, I have lifted my toyota truck (used to have a jeep wrangler too) and put large tires on it (35") this creates a lerge lever arm on the axles, creating lots of bind in the entire driveline.... I go to Moab Ut every year and spend an entire week in 4 low, most of it on the slickrock [basically sandstone read:sandpaper (Lots of traction)] my tires literally squeel and almost bark on the surface because of the binding action due to being in 4low Here is an example this squealing/barking noise is the tires slipping on the rock. and releasing the binding action. The driveline should be able to take it.

you are advised not to run 4wd on pavement due to this binding causing wear and odd driving feedback, it's not because the truck will break from short term usage.

So in conclusion, 4wd low is there for a reason, use it when you need it. Just dont use it for extended periods on pavement.

-Zach

[Snow-i]

You guys are making me miss my 5 speed 93 explorer with push button 4x4 and hi/low . Alot.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

.....

Alright. But even then, I still don't understand: aren't trucks that offer a lower gear made to withstand this type of use? Especially if you use it only occasionally? And why can't you supposedly use 4WD on the road? We do it all the time here (we have tons of snow in Bavaria and Austria) since you have more traction on snowy and icy roads.

(Not that I'm a car expert.)

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Alright. But even then, I still don't understand: aren't trucks that offer a lower gear made to withstand this type of use? Especially if you use it only occasionally? And why can't you supposedly use 4WD on the road? We do it all the time here (we have tons of snow in Bavaria and Austria) since you have more traction on snowy and icy roads.

(Not that I'm a car expert.)

phantomdragonz did a better job of explaining it than I could.

[sek929]

I could drive for days and days with 4HI set, but taking turns is going to squeal my tires and put unnecessary strain on the drivetrain. If you are driving on snow/ice covered roads then you could drive for a year in 4WD as the tires are not gripping the road like they would on dry pavement..

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Alright. But even then, I still don't understand: aren't trucks that offer a lower gear made to withstand this type of use? Especially if you use it only occasionally? And why can't you supposedly use 4WD on the road? We do it all the time here (we have tons of snow in Bavaria and Austria) since you have more traction on snowy and icy roads.

(Not that I'm a car expert.)

On dry roads. If you're on the road and it's snowy, go for it. Dry roads just stress the system harder, and plus it's dry, so why would you need to be in 4WD?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

On dry roads. If you're on the road and it's snowy, go for it. Dry roads just stress the system harder, and plus it's dry, so why would you need to be in 4WD?

To have better traction, I suppose. I haven't heard of any of these limitations apart from vehicles designed specifically to go offroad (which excludes most SUVs these days ). There are plenty of Passats, Audi A4s, A6s, BMW 3- and 5-series with 4-wheel drive which are mostly always on. (On earlier Audis, you could switch them off.)

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

To have better traction, I suppose. I haven't heard of any of these limitations apart from vehicles designed specifically to go offroad (which excludes most SUVs these days ). There are plenty of Passats, Audi A4s, A6s, BMW 3- and 5-series with 4-wheel drive which are mostly always on. (On earlier Audis, you could switch them off.)

That's not 4 wheel drive, it's all wheel drive. They typically have a viscous or other differential between the front and rear wheels. Most trucks and truck-based SUVs with a real transfer case have a solid connection between the front and rear wheels.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

To have better traction, I suppose. I haven't heard of any of these limitations apart from vehicles designed specifically to go offroad (which excludes most SUVs these days ). There are plenty of Passats, Audi A4s, A6s, BMW 3- and 5-series with 4-wheel drive which are mostly always on. (On earlier Audis, you could switch them off.)

None of those are 4WD, for reasons that Laminar explains. AWD systems have a center differential which allows each axel to travel at speeds independent of each other, getting rid of any excess stress on the system.

[l008com]

So back on topic. My "system" would be just as capable yet more flexible, than current truck based 2wd system. Agree or disagree?

[imitchellg5]

I don't think it's really needed. How many truck owners actually ever use 4WD? And then how many actually use 4LO? And how many are in situations often enough where you would want to use 2LO? I imagine it's a very minute number.

[l008com]

Most people use 4wd at some point in the winter. And I think most people that use a truck to tow, will at some point use 4 low. But my system really wouldn't make the drive train any more complicated. But it would give you more options so those that would want a 2 low could get it. No ones going to use it often, but most people who buy trucks in the first place, buy them for the occasion they need a bed, not because they're going to fill up the pickup every day. (work trucks excluded)

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by l008com 

Most people use 4wd at some point in the winter.

What percent is "most?" In what geographical areas?

And I think most people that use a truck to tow, will at some point use 4 low.

What percent is "most?"

But my system really wouldn't make the drive train any more complicated.

Because you're an engineer experienced in drivetrain design?

But it would give you more options so those that would want a 2 low could get it.

What percent of buyers want a 2-low? Will the cost of R&D, manufacturing, added materials, added weight, added design complexity, additional FMEA, and added operational complexity be offset by the benefits of having a 2-low?

No ones going to use it often, but most people who buy trucks in the first place, buy them for the occasion they need a bed, not because they're going to fill up the pickup every day. (work trucks excluded)

What percent of trucks are bought as "work trucks?" What percent of trucks are used as designed (hauling, towing, etc.) occasionally? What percent of trucks are bought as status symbols and never used as designed?

I'd bet that Ford, GM, and Chrysler know a teeny bit more about the answers to those questions than you do.

[l008com]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

What percent is "most?" In what geographical areas?



What percent is "most?"



Because you're an engineer experienced in drivetrain design?



What percent of buyers want a 2-low? Will the cost of R&D, manufacturing, added materials, added weight, added design complexity, additional FMEA, and added operational complexity be offset by the benefits of having a 2-low?



What percent of trucks are bought as "work trucks?" What percent of trucks are used as designed (hauling, towing, etc.) occasionally? What percent of trucks are bought as status symbols and never used as designed?

I'd bet that Ford, GM, and Chrysler know a teeny bit more about the answers to those questions than you do.

Sooooo your saying you think it's a bad idea because if it was a good idea, it would have been done already?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by l008com 

Sooooo your saying you think it's a bad idea because if it was a good idea, it would have been done already?

As previously mentioned, it's been done before, and isn't done now. The role of the truck has changed in the last 20 years from being a vehicle that people used to haul and tow with to being a vehicle that is used to haul 5 year olds and their little league football gear down to the park. I'd reckon in fact that the majority of trucks now will never find one of their tires off pavement, will never town a trailer, and if then only a pop-up camper, and will never have 4WD engaged beyond getting into the Macy's parking lot.

[phantomdragonz]

It was done already, they phased it out in the mid 80's because engines were stronger and people wanted to go faster so they changed the ratios in the transmissions so you could go 80mph while still having 5 gears. The ones with the granny low had a final drive ratio of 1:1 and not today's more common overdrive .68:1 (guessing the ratio)

Not to mention semi trucks have 18+ foreword gears for the reason you are talking about. But that's no longer a light duty truck...

Basically your idea is moot with today's drivers and trucks. 4wd low is the solution today.

[sek929]

I use 4WD quite frequently in the winter. Ever try driving a small pickup in 2WD on icy roads? I'll also use it on the jobsite where we need to bring in materials to someones yard and not rip up their grass, in 2WD I'd be spinning the rear tires but in 4WD I can smoothly drive across a well manicured lawn.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

That's not 4 wheel drive, it's all wheel drive. They typically have a viscous or other differential between the front and rear wheels. Most trucks and truck-based SUVs with a real transfer case have a solid connection between the front and rear wheels.

So in English, you distinguish between the two? Wow, learnt something today. In German, there is no such distinction, Allradantrieb (AWD) is the same as Vierradantrieb (4WD) -- if your vehicle has four wheels. (If it has more, you need to be more specific.) Some vehicles with all-wheel drive here allow you to lock the center differential though.

[sek929]

AWD over here means an 'always on' system whereas 4WD is something you have to set when you want added traction.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by sek929 

AWD over here means an 'always on' system whereas 4WD is something you have to set when you want added traction.

Same round here.

4x4 - all wheels drive all the time (when switched on)

AWD - 4 wheels can drive but only when the car detects slippage.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

AWD - 4 wheels can drive but only when the car detects slippage.

I think you're talking about a different type of AWD used by Honda and Toyota which is FWD until slippage is detected, in which case the car shifts power as need be. Other AWD systems are 50/50 split (or another percentage) until there is slippage, in which case the center diff is able to shift power.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I think you're talking about a different type of AWD used by Honda and Toyota which is FWD until slippage is detected, in which case the car shifts power as need be. Other AWD systems are 50/50 split (or another percentage) until there is slippage, in which case the center diff is able to shift power.

There are plenty of different systems: BMW, for instance, puts more emphasis on the rear wheels (presumably to give it the feel that resembles its RWD models) while VW puts a lot more emphasis on the front wheels.

[sek929]

I believe the ratio for most BMWs is something like 80/20 rear/front until more traction is needed.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by sek929 

I believe the ratio for most BMWs is something like 80/20 rear/front until more traction is needed.

It's 25/75 front/rear. Some Audis are the same way, others are 50/50 (like all Subaru).

But the system I was talking about isn't true AWD or 4WD. The split during normal driving is 100/0 front/rear, and only under slippage will it transmit any power to the rear.

[BLAZE_MkIV]

How far/ fast do you need to go to get the boat in/out of the water. It's not like your driving hundreds of miles at highway speeds. Sure when your off road the wheels can slip a little to deal with the different distances traveled but I doubt you're traveling far enough while turning to cause a problem.

[phantomdragonz]

Originally Posted by sek929 

AWD over here means an 'always on' system whereas 4WD is something you have to set when you want added traction.

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

4x4 - all wheels drive all the time (when switched on)

AWD - 4 wheels can drive but only when the car detects slippage.

These quotes are correct, do not confuse AWD with 4WD they are marketed as almost identical, but the real world application reacts very differently to slippery situations.

the viscous coupling/center differential is required on an AWD vehicle to eliminate bind. These are also called "full time 4WD". This is where the confusion begins, its not a "true" 4WD system.

Part time 4WD is another name for the type of 4WD you get from a truck or Jeep, This is the true definition of 4WD. Trucks like these have transfer-cases and are usually Real Wheel Drive (RWD) when the transfer-case is in 2WD. This is the situation where bind is created and drivers are instructed to never use it on pavement. As I have said before, you can use it on pavement but increase tire wear and driveline wear will result from EXTENDED usage on pavement.

some vehicular examples of these two systems.

AWD
-Subaru
-Audi
-BMW (most)
-some SUVs
-any other car besides the old subaru Brat

4WD
-Trucks
-Jeeps
-Landrovers
-Some SUVs

SUVs crossed both lines, the Mercury Mariner was AWD, the Ford Explorer came in both varieties (I think) and even some jeep grand cherokees came in AWD versions.


AWD has some major weaknesses, in SOME systems it is still capable to spin 1 tire even though the rest of the three are on solid ground with good traction, usually the viscous coupling will try and transmit some of that power to the axle is that is slipping (front or rear) but some systems dont work that way. A part time system will by design give you a "50/50" split. So if your rear axles are on black ice (no traction) your front will pull you as if there was no problem, because both the front and rear axle are being spun at the same speed. and AWD system would spin the slipping axle more then the axle that has traction, causing the engine to rev higher and once all 4 gained traction again it would jerk due to the tires regaining traction, on a slippery surface this jerking action can initiate a slide on it's own.

I hope that makes sense.

dont get me wrong AWD is flawed, but I would LOVE to have a Subaru STi with a lockable center diff, I would get the benefit of AWD on pavement, and then once on dirt or snow I could lock it up and really move.

The STi is my dream car, but I need to get out of college and into a career for that to happen.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by phantomdragonz 

some vehicular examples of these two systems.

AWD
-Subaru
-Audi
-BMW (most)
-some SUVs
-any other car besides the old subaru Brat

4WD
-Trucks
-Jeeps
-Landrovers
-Some SUVs

SUVs crossed both lines, the Mercury Mariner was AWD, the Ford Explorer came in both varieties (I think) and even some jeep grand cherokees came in AWD versions.

WJ: AWD (100% rear unless slip) until low, then 4WD.
XJ: 2High, 4WD, AWD, 4Low.

It's all completely variable even within models. Some XJs came without AWD (basically used the TJ case), some with. Some WJs came with the aforementioned system, some with the XJ system.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

It's 25/75 front/rear. Some Audis are the same way, others are 50/50 (like all Subaru).

But the system I was talking about isn't true AWD or 4WD. The split during normal driving is 100/0 front/rear, and only under slippage will it transmit any power to the rear.

I think this is how Ford does it on the Fusion and Taurus. I could take 15 seconds and Google it, but I'm lazy.

[Cipher13]

I use 2 Low most days of the week (at boat ramps).

Part-time 4wd with freewheeling hubs up front. Keep them unlocked, and there's your 2 Low.

(Mine is a 75-series troopy).

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by phantomdragonz 

These quotes are correct, do not confuse AWD with 4WD they are marketed as almost identical, but the real world application reacts very differently to slippery situations.

To make matters even more confusing, some earlier Audi quattros and many SUVs here (and to my knowledge the modern Land Rovers fall under that category as well) do have a viscous coupling, but it can be locked. Since most non-2WD cars (for a lack of a better term) spend most of their time on-road, this seems very sensible to me.

[is not]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

It's 25/75 front/rear. Some Audis are the same way, others are 50/50 (like all Subaru).

But the system I was talking about isn't true AWD or 4WD. The split during normal driving is 100/0 front/rear, and only under slippage will it transmit any power to the rear.

Our ML is 50:50 as is on any ML , unless you go for the 63AMG that is 40:60.

[Snow-i]

My g35 is 100/0 r/f. And on snow, it automatically changes to 50/50 as long as you're going downhill (direction the car is facing does not matter). If I wasn't unemployed atm I'd buy some stock 17s and throw some blizzaks on there, but I can't justify it without steady income. Makes me wish I didn't give away my explorer .

By the way, here's a pic of me sittin on my ride

[l008com]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

My g35 is 100/0 r/f. And on snow, it automatically changes to 50/50 as long as you're going downhill (direction the car is facing does not matter). If I wasn't unemployed atm I'd buy some stock 17s and throw some blizzaks on there, but I can't justify it without steady income. Makes me wish I didn't give away my explorer .

By the way, here's a pic of me sittin on my ride

I had blizzaks on my RX8. The RX8 drove better in the snow than any 4x4 i had owned. As long as there wasn're more than say 6 inches of snow on the roads. They don't make them in the size i need for my camaro though, so I had to get scorpions. Which seem to be just about as good as the blizzaks

[Laminar]

Love the Blizzaks.

Drove straight out of this, plowing the road with my front bumper:




I miss having snow tires, I'll probably get a set or two next season.

Link

While most motorists sliding out of control will tell you that winter tires are too expensive for them to justify, I believe in a simple truth that completely contradicts this claim. Winter tires are cheaper than insurance hikes and bodywork. And you can't put a price on your safety. Most quality winter tires will offer a tread-life of three to four years before replacement is necessary, so divide the purchase cost over three to four years when you budget for them. Since you never drive your winter tires through the summer you can effectively cut down on their wear and this allows you to enjoy both winter traction, and an entertaining, fun-filled summer with a set a performance summer tires.

And consider that your summer tires don't wear in the winter, so their life is extended as well. The true cost of winter tires is the one-time cost of wheels (steel wheels are cheap) and the difference in price between your summer and winter tires.

[l008com]

I paid $750 for my snow tires, and I fully expect them to last 5 years, possibly longer. I do pay $80 to get them mounted and unmounted, because I don't want to buy a second set of wheels. I'd rather just have the snow tires on my one set of wheels. But for a sports car and/or a rear wheel drive car, snow tires are a necessity.