[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by Eug 

MS buying up strategic ad space:



(Click to enlarge)

[ink]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

I'm selling my Wii.

You know... you can keep more than one system... It's what most of us do.


I'm also throwing in my vote for PS2 as the best system ever. I've owned pretty much every console from the Atari 2600 to now, and I can't think of a better one. The PSX comes in second place, and then the SNES in third.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by ink 

You know... you can keep more than one system... It's what most of us do.


I'm also throwing in my vote for PS2 as the best system ever. I've owned pretty much every console from the Atari 2600 to now, and I can't think of a better one. The PSX comes in second place, and then the SNES in third.

If I had planned to do that and just saved money at the beginning, I could've. But I wasted that money I could've spent by taking losses in trade ins. Dumb, of course, but I can't change that now. In terms of software, it's also cheaper for me to have one system.

Ahhhhh, maybe I should've made the "best console ever" into a poll. But the mods here seem to think we have enough video game threads, and I agree with them.

[Hawkeye_a]

Beleive it or not, im seriously reconsidering getting a Wii. Why ?....

-Not region free
-AA batteries in controller, which means i have to get a battery recharger, unlike the XB360/PS3
-VC games being tied to a particular Wii console. (ie you cant put them on an SD card and carry them to a friend's house.... ala iPod w/ Music)

The graphics/sound/power of the console are not an issue for me.... but that region locking is really annoying in this day and age. i dont see why i have to wrestle with the hardware to play games ive legally paid for from different regions. (U.S., Australia). i have to give Kudos to Sony for their region free gaming stance.

Apparently i can get "freeloader" for the GCN (which will work with the Wii)...but that just pushes the price up even more for a feature that SHOULD have been on the console out of the box. Not to mention that it's like a "hack" which is rather inelegant imo.

Oh well..lets see.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

-Not region free

I'll admit it would be nice for it to be region-free, but region locking is the norm for console games (portables are an exception). The PS3 is the ONLY console in recent memory that has no restrictions in place. With older systems, the cartridges were different shapes, then they moved to discs and it became harder to defeat. So I'm not sure why this is a specific knock against the Wii.

-AA batteries in controller, which means i have to get a battery recharger, unlike the XB360/PS3

The Xbox 360 also uses AA batteries unless you buy the separate rechargeable battery.

-VC games being tied to a particular Wii console. (ie you cant put them on an SD card and carry them to a friend's house.... ala iPod w/ Music)

Yeah, I guess. I personally don't ever see myself doing this.

Apparently i can get "freeloader" for the GCN (which will work with the Wii)...but that just pushes the price up even more for a feature that SHOULD have been on the console out of the box. Not to mention that it's like a "hack" which is rather inelegant imo.

Just to clarify, that only works for Gamecube games and not Wii games, and there have been some conflicting reports about it as well (some versions not working).

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

-VC games being tied to a particular Wii console. (ie you cant put them on an SD card and carry them to a friend's house.... ala iPod w/ Music)

It's pretty understandable why Nintendo did this. If they allowed games to be played on other Wii's, no one would buy VC games and everyone would just copy them instead.

And honestly, I can't think of a time in which I'd say "Gee... I really want to play the original Zelda at my friend's house. I wish I could take it with me." There are going to be some games that everyone owns, such as Mario Kart, and those will be the games everyone will want to play together anyway.

Speaking of Mario Kart, is anyone else excited for online Mario Kart on the Wii? You know they're going to do it...

[starman]

And what if your Wii dies? You have to buy them all again?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

And what if your Wii dies? You have to buy them all again?

Nintendo already said in that event they will let you redownload all your games again for free.

Edit: Or you can back them up on an SD card.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by starman 

And what if your Wii dies? You have to buy them all again?

Way to jump to conclusions.

[the_glassman]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Way to jump to conclusions.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Nintendo already said in that event they will let you redownload all your games again for free.

I don't remember that. Do you have a link?

When I had to call Wii in they told me I would have to back stuff up including VC games or it would be gone.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

I don't remember that. Do you have a link?

When I had to call Wii in they told me I would have to back stuff up including VC games or it would be gone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Console_(Wii)

"Games downloaded from Virtual Console library will be stored on Wii's built-in 512MB flash memory and additional downloads may be stored on SD cards. If the internal memory is filled, Virtual Console games can be deleted to create more room. If the player wants to play those deleted games at a later date, they can be downloaded again at no additional cost. The Virtual Console games are locked to the Wii they were bought on, so a player cannot play their Virtual Console games on another Wii by simply swapping the memory cards. In the event that a Wii is damaged and the Virtual Console games can no longer be played, Nintendo will provide support."

Best link I could find just from a quick Google search.

[starman]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Way to jump to conclusions.

Why am I jumping to conclusions?

iTunes makes you do it.
The conversation above didn't distinguish ACCOUNT or MACHINE.

[icruise]

You're jumping to conclusions because you're assuming something without evidence. I haven't tried it yet, but I've read in multiple places that you can redownload your games. I can try it later if you like (I still have Zelda copied to an SD card, so it shouldn't matter if I delete it from the console in any case).

I think all of the consoles' download services allow redownloading (and really, iTunes should too).

BTW I'd still like to know how you managed to get your 1080i-only TV to play PS3 games that only support 720p (like Resistance, from what I hear). Or are you enjoying your PS3 in glorious 480p?

[Hawkeye_a]

-Freeloader. well i just need that for GCN games...im permanently here in Australia, so all my games for the Wii and VC will probably be Ozzie region coded. but i do have like 8 GCN games id like to still play on the one console. it feels like a 'hack' but it would be acceptable.

-VC. have a DRM in place like iTMS w/ iPods, except for SD cards. im not advocating coping by any means. but what i would like is if a couple of friends who have VC games come over with their SD cards...we can just fire up the game and play. thats all.

-i didnt know the XB360 used AA batteries as well. i was hoping for a NDS Lite style replacable&rechargagable battery where you plug it into the console to recgarge...while playing ala PS3.

I'm still on the fence for now. my mind will probably be made up once i try the console for myself and see what it has to offer..... graphics/control wise'. If freeloader works for my GCN games....it'll be a solution...not a favorable one, but a solution none-the-less.

Having said that, i am eager to try this controller. This is a platform for Nintendo to release it's software on primarily.having never played through any mario game and Zelda WW being the only Zelda game ive ever played..... i think at the price they are asking...it would be a great opportunity for me to play Super Mario Bros (NES, SNES) mario 64, all the older Zeldas, the new Mario and the New Zelda. All that might make it worthwhile.....coupled with a few great third party titles.... let's see. ill try it, try freeloader at my local store(where he agreed to let me try all this before i buy).... and if im comfortable with the controller, ill pick up the console, battery pack, freeloader, excite truck and zelda. the Australian launch is a week from today.

[goMac]

Honestly, I think next year we'll see a "Premium" Wii. I'll have an upgraded GPU capable of pushing Wii games at 720p, maybe maybe 1080p (seeing as how the XB360 and the PS3 still have trouble with 1080p), capable of playing DVD's, and it'll probably include a controller with a rechargeable battery pack.

I think Nintendo just wanted to get the Core Wii system out first that most people would be buying, which is fine by me. Every other company out there builds products this way, I don't see why this is a problem for Nintendo.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

-i didnt know the XB360 used AA batteries as well. i was hoping for a NDS Lite style replacable&rechargagable battery where you plug it into the console to recgarge...while playing ala PS3.

The Play & Charge kit allows you to do exactly that, but as I say, it's an additional expense.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

-i didnt know the XB360 used AA batteries as well. i was hoping for a NDS Lite style replacable&rechargagable battery where you plug it into the console to recgarge...while playing ala PS3.

You can buy an official play and charge kit for your 360 that takes the place of your battery pack and charges back up while hooked up to a USB port. This is what you're looking for. It costs $20.

[icruise]

Beat ya!

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Beat ya!

Say it again...

[Eug]

Originally Posted by NYK Ace 

but then i read these reports that the ps3 wont work with 1080i only sets (which i have) and theres no way id pay $600 unless i could get it in high def on MY high def tv

Originally Posted by starman 

Works fine on mine.

Originally Posted by icruise 

Your TV is a 1080i-only set? Because the PS3 is supposed to downconvert to 480p on sets that do not support either 720p or 1080P (i.e. early HDTVs).

Originally Posted by starman 

Yup. 1080i only. It's a few years old.

Originally Posted by goMac 

Zelda's a gamecube game, so it's not showing the Wii's graphics.

I think next year the games that are more fully baked for the Wii will start to show off what kind of graphics we can really expect from the Wii.

Originally Posted by starman 

All it does is 480p and has a crappy video card. Sorry, it's not happening. Seriously, what DO you expect?

That's what you get on a 1080i-only HD TV with Resistance for the PS3. That's why several pages ago I asked if you had tried Resistance yet.

Only 1080p games will display at 1080i. Any 720p games like Resistance will downscale to 480p.

[ink]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Honestly, I hope next year we'll see a "Premium" Wii....

Fixed.

(And I hope so too)

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ink 

Fixed.

I don't really care myself as I've been fine with 480p.

Nintendo has already dropped hints they might do this, and it would follow what Nintendo has been doing with the DS. Upgrade the hardware gradually over time.

Nintendo already said that it wasn't that they were against HD, it was just they didn't have the time to work on it... for now.

And it would shut the SWG's up.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by goMac 

And it would shut the SWG's up.

No it wouldn't -- he'd bitch twice as much because he bought the early crappy model, and I think he'd be right. Nintendo's product upgrades have always been relatively minor. Color variations, a more compact portable system or a nicer screen. Sure, the jump from the DS to the DS lite was pretty major, but the essential game play, graphics, and so forth remain exactly the same. You don't expect a huge jump in capabilities like that, I personally hope that they don't do it. Either bump up the resolution via a software update (if such a thing is actually possible) or don't do it at all.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by icruise 

No it wouldn't -- he'd bitch twice as much because he bought the early crappy model, and I think he'd be right. Nintendo's product upgrades have always been relatively minor. Color variations, a more compact portable system or a nicer screen. Sure, the jump from the DS to the DS lite was pretty major, but the essential game play, graphics, and so forth remain exactly the same. You don't expect a huge jump in capabilities like that, I personally hope that they don't do it. Either bump up the resolution via a software update (if such a thing is actually possible) or don't do it at all.

I don't think it would be an upgrade in the way the DS Lite was. I could see Nintendo charging $350 for a premium version, while keeping the "Core" around for $250.

[ink]

Originally Posted by icruise 

I personally hope that they don't do it. Either bump up the resolution via a software update (if such a thing is actually possible) or don't do it at all.

But it's OK to have 2 versions of the 360 and the PS3?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ink 

But it's OK to have 2 versions of the 360 and the PS3?

Not to mention the rumored 3rd version of the XB360 coming with an HD-DVD drive and HDMI.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by icruise 

No it wouldn't -- he'd bitch twice as much because he bought the early crappy model, and I think he'd be right.

Bingo. Not to mention all the "Wii" games I already have that look like crap next to the later "Wii HD" games.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by ink 

But it's OK to have 2 versions of the 360 and the PS3?

Yes because it doesn't mean you need better built games AND you are offered each model at the same time not a year apart.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Yes because it doesn't mean you need better built games AND you are offered each model at the same time not a year apart.

You wouldn't have to have "better build games". A higher spec'd Wii would just create a framebuffer with a different resolution and do some tricks to make games think they're drawing at 480p, while in reality they'd be rendering into a 720p framebuffer, therefore upping the quality and eliminating those jaggies you do so much love to talk about.

QED

[Eug]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Not to mention the rumored 3rd version of the XB360 coming with an HD-DVD drive and HDMI.

This is unlikely, even in 2007.

Originally Posted by goMac 

You wouldn't have to have "better build games". A higher spec'd Wii would just create a framebuffer with a different resolution and do some tricks to make games think they're drawing at 480p, while in reality they'd be rendering into a 720p framebuffer, therefore upping the quality and eliminating those jaggies you do so much love to talk about.

Not gonna happen.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by ink 

But it's OK to have 2 versions of the 360 and the PS3?

Well, I think it's dumb to have two versions of those too, but the different versions of the Xbox 360 and PS3 have the exact same capabilities when it comes to playing games. (The Core Xbox 360 just doesn't have all of the accessories as the Premium, and the 60GB PS3 basically just has some extra multimedia features over the 20GB). A hypothetical Wii HD and Wii SD would very different systems.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

This is unlikely, even in 2007.

I would bet on E3 2006. It wouldn't even surprise me if Nintendo didn't already have a few prototypes. The software work to get this working with existing Wii games is very little. The only thing you'd need to do is getting higher speed PowerPC processor, a higher speed ATI graphics card, stick em on a Wii board, and you'd be done. The case would have to be a bit bigger, but that doesn't necessarily take long to do either.

I just don't see a software update to get the Wii working at 720p happening. I could see it happening for the less graphically intense games on the Wii, like Twilight Princess, but I don't see it happening for games like Metroid Prime 3. Perhaps on the current Wii they could do an update for select games. But otherwise, it would have to be a hardware update.

[ink]

Originally Posted by goMac 

You wouldn't have to have "better build games". A higher spec'd Wii would just create a framebuffer with a different resolution and do some tricks to make games think they're drawing at 480p, while in reality they'd be rendering into a 720p framebuffer, therefore upping the quality and eliminating those jaggies you do so much love to talk about.

It wouldn't even need to be a "trick" per se; games are written to libraries that handle the dirty task of rendering a scene to the screen (see upgraded PSX games on the PS2). The game itself has no idea if its running at a specific resolution.

Here's a name for the new Nintendo console: WiiWii

I think the odds are low that it will happen though; but... Sony and Microsoft are doing it, so why not?

[Jawbone54]

To make such a drastic change after launching a system on the premise of gameplay and innovative controls over graphics would be like admitting defeat. It just doesn't seem very likely to me.

[ink]

Originally Posted by goMac 

higher speed PowerPC processor

That will not happen. That would imply two sets of software for the Wii, and would never fly.

Upgrading the output capability, and the GPU can be game-agnostic; but the processor is not.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ink 

It wouldn't even need to be a "trick" per se; games are written to libraries that handle the dirty task of rendering a scene to the screen (see upgraded PSX games on the PS2). The game itself has no idea if its running at a specific resolution.

Well, whatever library the games are written in, they've got to obtain a framebuffer from the Wii, through the Wii's OS. The Wii gives them a "pretend" 480p framebuffer, but actually takes the data it's given, does some simple math magic, and renders it into a 720p context.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ink 

That will not happen. That would imply two sets of software for the Wii, and would never fly.

No it doesn't, as I am explaining. This is how the other systems also run old games at higher resolutions.

[goMac]

To try to explain better, real time rendered 3D graphics are, by nature, made from vectors. This makes them very easy to resize to different resolutions.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Not to mention the rumored 3rd version of the XB360 coming with an HD-DVD drive and HDMI.

That sounds pretty tasty actually.

Also, Nintendo should not upgrade the specs of the machine to the point where you will have two different versions of games for the "same" console. this will totally alienate the already installed userbase, and will definately drive people into the XB360 and PS3 camp.

The gameplay seems to be the big focus, and it apparently has proved to be awesome...albiet a few hardcore gamers who are obviously reluctant to change. What Nintendo needs to do now, is show off what the Wii is capable of graphically/sound/power/online wise...... the GameCube had Rogue Leader which was quite awesome i nthe graphics/sound/power wise.

I think Nintendo has passed the initial hurdle(the biggest one it had) of the reaction to the controller....and its obvious that a lot of work went into ensuring that the experience would be "seamless". But lets not forget....it's not all JUST ABOUT gameplay....having nailed the controls, they need to start focusing on the other aspects as well.

Im not asking for PS3/XB360 caliber graphics, but i would like games where the concept of polygons,textures,Ai dont even enter my mind while playing the game..... WindWaker and RE4 accomplished that perfectly...and thats what i want. i dont want to have to pause and wonder why everything looks so "blocky" or just buy a game cause it's running in HD, etc. i just want games that appear seamless...the controller definately lends itself to that notion, now i think if they can crank out GCN X2 graphics and power....ill be more than satisified.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

That sounds pretty tasty actually.

It does. I'm planning on buying the XBox 360 next year, but there is one that includes an internal HD-DVD drive, you'll have a hard time keeping me from buying one right away.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

That sounds pretty tasty actually.

goMac has a good imagination.

If you're waiting on one of those, you're gonna be waiting a very long time.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

goMac has a good imagination.

If you're waiting on one of those, you're gonna be waiting a very long time.

It makes sense for competing with the PS3 and is a relatively minor upgrade. Sticking in an HD-DVD drive is not hard to do. I think we'll see it with the 60nm XBox 360.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by goMac 

To try to explain better, real time rendered 3D graphics are, by nature, made from vectors. This makes them very easy to resize to different resolutions.

Being an OpenGL programmer..... vectors are resizable in a 3D scene. the VRAM is what determines what your maximum resolution will be cause each frame is rendered and stored there before being pumped out to the display.

if you want a game running at 30fps or 60 fps, you need to take into account how much memory each frame will take up at those resolutions, while having vertex geometry, polygon geometry, textures, etc...all sitting in the VRAM.

resizing vectors inside a 3D scene doesnt mean you automatically get to change resolutions that is being output. Also.... screen resolution and polygon count and texture resolutions and screen size all have to be just right.... for exaple... Mario64 might look great on a DS screen...cause of the resolution and size of the sscreen, but you cant just scale the vector geometry up, increase the resolution being output and expect it to look just as good on a HD display.

It's definately a RAM/VRAM issue with the Wii not being HD capable. having said that 480p widescreen is more than adequate for most of us.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Eug 

goMac has a good imagination.

If you're waiting on one of those, you're gonna be waiting a very long time.

I think its definately possible.... all microsoft has to do is limit publishing games on DVD-DL and thats it. if they keep the same price points they have now with the built in HD-DVD ill pick one up.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

It's definately a RAM/VRAM issue with the Wii not being HD capable. having said that 480p widescreen is more than adequate for most of us.

Exactly. This is why I doubt the current Wii hardware is going to cut it. It's going to need probably a 1400 mhz processor and somewhere between a 300-400 mhz video card with at least 128 megs of vram.

The textures aren't going to look HD quality. Nintendo, if they really wanted, could perform an update on the existing Wii software and add the ability for a game to query what the real resolution they are running at is and pick and choose different textures. Nintendo would then require compatibility with 480i-720p.

I don't think the resolution of the textures is really the main idea of upgrading the Wii though. On 480p they look pretty gosh darn good. It's just eliminating the jaggies really that upgrading to 720p is about.

Nice to see a fellow OGL programmer. I did a lot of OGL in high school as my high school had capstones (and mine was coding game engines). I'm a few years out of practice though. I never did OGL at a University level. Maybe when I go back next year.

[Hawkeye_a]

Or if the GPU permitted (which i friggon hope it does in this day and age) implement FSAA in games.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

I think its definately possible.... all microsoft has to do is limit publishing games on DVD-DL and thats it. if they keep the same price points they have now with the built in HD-DVD ill pick one up.

Aye, there's the rub.

MS has two options:

1) Release it with the HD DVD drive in fall 2007 for $399.
2) Release it with the DVD drive in fall 2007 for $299-349. <-- Much smarter move.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by goMac 

You wouldn't have to have "better build games". A higher spec'd Wii would just create a framebuffer with a different resolution and do some tricks to make games think they're drawing at 480p, while in reality they'd be rendering into a 720p framebuffer, therefore upping the quality and eliminating those jaggies you do so much love to talk about.

QED

Up-converting looks no where near as good as the real thing. Not to mention it won't add better textures. Also you don't need any "Frame buffer tricks" to fool the game, my TV up-converts any signal it gets to 720p and it involves no tricks or buffers. Even though my TV is up-converting the Wii to 720p it still looks like a total blur.

Stop coming off as such an expert on HD when you don't own a single peace of anything HD.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Up-converting looks no where near as good as the real thing. Not to mention it won't add better textures. Also you don't need any "Frame buffer tricks" to fool the game, my TV up-converts any signal it gets to 720p and it involves no tricks or buffers. Even though my TV is up-converting the Wii to 720p it still looks like a total blur.

It's not the same up-converting as what your DVD player does. Your DVD player is up-converting a bitmap. I'm talking about up-converting 3D graphics, which are vectors. This is somewhat similar to how resolution independent UI's work. The program doesn't know it's rendering it's UI at a different resolution, but yet the interface is rendered at a higher resolution.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Stop coming off as such an expert on HD when you don't own a single peace of anything HD.

Maybe it's possible I've done 3D programming on another high resolution device like... ohhh... I don't know... a computer?

Gee. I have 4 screens right in front of me that are all at least 720p capable. Nope. Don't know anything about variable resolution graphics though.