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ls -al · Jul 21, 2002, 10:06 PM

Frankly all the talk of .Mac is getting dull. Jaguar is almost upon us, we pretty much know what features are in. It's time to once again look forward. Post your vision of OS X v10.3

Personally here's what I want to see:

Core technologies

- Top notch security including iApps
- Quartz to support PDF 1.4.
- Quartz to support remote display � la X Window System -NSHOST
- Open GL 2.0
- BSD 5.0
- Java 1.4
- AppleScript 3.0 perl, javascript, ruby & python bridges
- Database FileSystem with soft-updates
- Inkwell 2.0
- Instant Boot technology. Boot in < 5 seconds on new systems
- POSIX compliance tested
- System wide API for Synchronization
- Open API for .Mac
- Quicktime 7.0 with video conference APIs
- VoIP and Telephony support in the system
- Kick ass Speech to text. Come on, Victoria, Bruce and Zarvox have languished far too long!
- Revamped Gaming API with peripheral and Rendezvous support.
- Increased Windows compatibility what more is needed?
- Kick ass Core Audio what's missing here?
- Gecko in the system. XUL support Is this a good idea?
- Component technology
- System wide thesaurus and grammar check support.

System Folder

- Revamped file hierarchy. All unix directories inside /System. Pervasive linking for unix directories like /usr, /var, /etc
- Ability to create a bootable folder by dragging System and Library folders.
� Automatically place items dropped into /Library in their respective places.

Networking

- Support for Active Directory and Sun NIS
- Pervasive Rendezvous. In as many apps as possible. For instance Rendezvous enabled Chess.app for multiplayer support

Or in iPhoto to share albums/pictures. Rendezvous support in Games and in iCal.

Finder

- Metadata galore!
- Industry wide standard to eliminate .extensions!!
- Smart Folders ala 'Smart Playlists'. The finder will automatically fill the folder based on criteria.
- Customizable folder badges/labels!
- Built in indexing daemon watching over all your files/saves.
- Finder which understand People, Places, Projects and Things, ala Six Degrees.
- Workflow improvements in Finder. Ability to synch two folders.
- Ability to use toolbar as a true shelf for storing multiple items (ala the NeXT hand with cards).
- Mount SFTP volumes!
- Optional Virtual desktops
- Ability to attach applescript to volumes.

iApps

- XML config files for all iApps. API for manipulating all iApps
- Videocon and voice chat on iChat. White board support?
- Plug-in API for iChat to support multiple services.
- iPhoto 2, speed enhanced UI.
- Exchange/Lotus Notes/Meeting maker support in iCal. Make iCal far better than Exchange!
- Better iApps interoperability
- New iApps, a new Audio iApp?
- Compositing in iMovie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ?
- System wide scheduling assistant?

Mail

- Rock solid Exchange support including .pst files.
- S/MIME, MD5, PGP?, SpamCop reporting
- Bring back Lip Service from the NeXT days
- What else is needed here? It seems very capable in 2.0?

.Mac Note I want to see these much before X 10.3!!!

Webmail
- Synch Addressbook with Webmail
- Spell and grammar check for Webmail
Homepage
- New address: username.mac.com
- Blogging tool! Easy way of posting time stamped data.
- Guestbook capability
- More templates
Backup
- Ability to restore with original create/mod dates!
- Backup to drive or network!
iCal
- Ability to send SMS messages to a mobile phone
iSync
- Do not require .Mac to do this.

Of course, cool new hardware releases are always great!

KaptainKaya · Jul 21, 2002, 10:25 PM

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Already??

ls -al · Jul 21, 2002, 10:29 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Already??<hr /></blockquote>Would you rather discuss .Mac instead?

Shame · Jul 21, 2002, 10:39 PM

-Snappy.

-But you'll now need 128MBs of graphics memory.

timster · Jul 21, 2002, 10:57 PM

Java 1.4 will most likely appear long before 10.3 does. The beta for 1.4 is already being tested by people who do java development and have access to the Jaguar seeds.

-tim

hmurchison2001 · Jul 21, 2002, 11:14 PM

ls -al Great post. I'll just add mine to your Catagories.

Core technologies

OpenGL 2.0
And Ope <a href="http://www.khronos.org/openml/index.html" target="_blank">OpenML</a> nML Support

DTS and Dolby AC3 Decoding in Core Audio
More pervasive use of Altivec
Comprehensive Power Management

Networking

Top Notch LDAP
Very fast Stack
Dual Nics standard
Load Balancing
Support for NIS(even though Solaris is moving to LDAP)
Clustering option.

Finder

Workspaces
Best of Breed user accounts with fast switching.
Gui mode levels Fast-low eye candy etc.
Tabbed Dock- with a button that allows you to drag and drop a file or whatever to perfom an Applescript.
Locking MIME types.

iApps

iMidi. Simple MIDI app based on something like Logics lite app.
Built in Synth API for small Soft Synth.
iTranslate- Translates Doc formats and Language.

Mail

Small Server with Exchange like features.

KaptainKaya · Jul 22, 2002, 12:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ls -al:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Already??<hr /></blockquote>Would you rather discuss .Mac instead?

<hr /></blockquote>Good point

I'd like to see something that blows Windows out of the water. I don't mean UNIX, Rendezvous, Inkwell...Something new, fresh, and that will take Apple into the lead once again. Then again, who wouldn't?

krove · Jul 22, 2002, 01:38 AM

So the combination of Rendezvous, UNIX, and Ink aren't enough?

Has everyone forgotten the Dock?!?

Dock Features that are a must:
-Drag and Drop into dock folders (navigate menus, etc)
-Ability to create separators (and somehow label the sections)
-Multiple docks (hit a key and dock switches to show new group of icons)

I don't think the dock has to become very complicated, as its purpose is fairly simple as it is. I just think we need better organization and customization tools for the Dock.

Codename · Jul 22, 2002, 01:40 AM

Each subsequent OS X release's codename has correlated to a progressively slower big cat. We had Cheetah, then Puma and now Jaguar. I proclaim that OS 10.3 shall be known as Fat Tabby� and here's a pict.

Psst! Don't tell Apple Legal you saw this!

<img src="http://www.tubcat.com/other_cats/kraks_watching_squirrel.jpg" alt=" - " />

Notice the lack of bloat.

besson3c · Jul 22, 2002, 01:56 AM

- Java 1.4

I think Java 1.4 is already being beta tested

- Database FileSystem with soft-updates

This is a big one! I think OS X will greatly stabilize with a filesystem like ext3....

- Instant Boot technology. Boot in less than 5 seconds on new systems

What's the point? Ideally, you should rarely have to reboot....

- System wide API for Synchronization

Synchronization of what? Just curious as to what you mean...

- Component technology

What is this?

- Support for Active Directory and Sun NIS

We already have ADS support, and hopefully Jag will let us to browse SMB machines authenticated to ADS....

- Built in indexing daemon watching over all your files/saves.
- Finder which understand People, Places, Projects and Things, ala Six Degrees.

Could you explain what you mean?

- Workflow improvements in Finder. Ability to synch two folders.

Kind of like a Unix hard link?

- Mount SFTP volumes!

This would be fantastic? Any word of whether we'll get this in Jag? It looks like only FTP is mentioned on Apple's site, if I recall.

- Rock solid Exchange support including .pst files.

I think as far as we would be able to get here is to replace Exchange, which may be possible once iCal comes out (providing your accounts are listed on an LDAP server). It would be nice to import .pst files though.

iSync
- Do not require .Mac to do this.

It doesn't now, does it? (i.e. you don't need .Mac to sync your address book with your iPod)

Interesting list!

- Dual Nics standard

What do you mean? Do you mean Apple should ship Macs with 2 ethernet cards?

- Load Balancing
- Clustering option

Obviously these are better (and cool) features suited for Mac OS X Server...

- iMidi. Simple MIDI app based on something like Logics lite app.

This would be really cool... a creative market I'm looking forward to seeing what Apple can contribute with.

Mail
- Small Server with Exchange like features.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think this is a bad idea... As I said, I think iCal (if it is compatible with Exchange's calendaring like its name would suggest), and LDAP directory services are the way to go rather than having a monolithic server managing all of this, IMHO.

Let's keep these lists coming!

Emotionally Fragile Luke · Jul 22, 2002, 01:57 AM

All I want is a less stupid Dock.

kman42 · Jul 22, 2002, 02:11 AM

An iSchedule (I hate to even suggest the name) app.

All system-wide scheduling needs is a gui to cron and some unix calls in useful apps like Backup, Virex, the iApps, and anything else that wants to play. AppleScripts/Perl/Python scripts could all be called from the app (obviously). A good number of apps respond to AppleScripts, and UNIX calls could be written so that people could do stuff when not logged in. I think it would really help jumpstart scripting on OSX.

kman

spacefreak · Jul 22, 2002, 03:13 AM

Price: $159.00 (usd)

ls -al · Jul 22, 2002, 06:09 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by besson3c:
-

- System wide API for Synchronization
Synchronization of what? Just curious as to what you mean...

- Component technology
What is this?

- Built in indexing daemon watching over all your files/saves.
- Finder which understand People, Places, Projects and Things, ala Six Degrees.

Could you explain what you mean?

iSync
- Do not require .Mac to do this.

It doesn't now, does it? (i.e. you don't need .Mac to sync your address book with your iPod)
<hr /></blockquote>Regarding Synchronization:

It would be good to have access to the iSync API, so that I am not forced to use iCal or AddressBook. For instance, I may want to use Daylite or Now Up to date (theoretically, I am not a masochist) as my primary PIM. These apps should be able to directly sync with a multitude of devices w/o writing conduits for each one!!!

Also, SyncML supports synching two computers over IP. But Apple in its infinite wisdom needs .Mac to do this!

Component technology

Windows has OLE/ActiveX. Apple had OpenDoc. Both are/were far from perfect. What we need is OpenDoc2 of some kind. I am nnot talking about a return of the document centric interface, but a few standardized components such as tables/spreadsheets would be nice. Here's a link explaining <a href="http://www.byte.com/art/9602/sec14/art8.htm" target="_blank">component technologies</a>

Indexing daemon

Instead of requiring a scheduled indexing of your files (I don't know anyone who uses find by content anymore), have a daemon which watches over all file opens, saves and file transfers. Use the indexing daemon to background index the files, so that your index is up to date. Much like the Mail indexing.

A system that understands people, places, things...

The basic premise is that the system understands relationships between locations, people, messages and files. Together, these are the cornerstone of everyday projects. For instance, the system should track, who I sent a particular file to, or who sent me a file, or the last e-mail exchange I had with someone on a particular project. By tracking these relationships, interesting patterns emerge.

Some of the things it can help you with include:

� Locate files with similar names or file revisions
� Show all email threads related to any file or person.
� View all the files a person has sent you, regardless of where those files are stored on your computer.
� Create dynamic, self-updating projects.
� Find misfiles or attachments quickly without searching desktop folders.
� Navigate and open any message, file or person on your desktop in one click.

This becomes a reality when you have a database FS. All this information can be stored as metadata. For example, a file can contain metadata about who worked on a file, revision dates, received by e-mail from, transfered to, and an expanding gamut of information. Projects are essentially smart folders which utilize metadata about people, places, messages and objects.

<a href="http://www.creo.com/sixdegrees/news_weblog.html" target="_blank">Here is an interesting web log on the subject.</a> It was written by Zach Niles, who was the chief architect of Quark back in day (he left the company in frustration...) to work on six degrees. Six degrees to an extent is a hack, but a wonderful hack. It depends on Entourage DB capabilities to implement its functionality. Ideally, all this metadata should be stored in the system.

Some snippets from the article

<blockquote>quote:<hr />utilizes something fundamental to most everyone's worldview: relationships. Typically software only shows container relationships. The Finder and the Windows Explorer simply show the contents of folders. Email applications show messages that are contained in a folder or account. This is a way of organizing the world in terms of a hierarchical construct called a tree view. Most species show an understanding of hierarchies in terms of the social or genealogical ordering of people, not the arbitrary containment of things. In the tree view, things at the root aren't the most important or the oldest ancestor, they just contain other things. As an example, compare the personal relevance of your company's organizational chart versus your company's web site architecture map. Six Degrees doesn't have a tree view for a reason, it isn't a natural way to view the world.

Outside of the computer, people constantly make sense of the world by how things are related. Recently I was cleaning my office and found a book on sushi making. I can remember the kind person who let me borrow it. I can remember the conversation I had with her about making sushi rice. I can remember this conversation also included a debate about the best sushi restaurant in town. I can remember a conversation I had with a friend at the Sushi Den where he and I talked about high altitude cooking. That reminded me I was going to let him borrow the sushi-making book the next time he was in town. The interesting thing is, for the life of me I can't remember why I put the book on the back of my desk and not on my bookshelf. My mind is much better at remembering how things are related than where things are kept.

Recently I was looking for a report about email usage, that I received some time last year. I had no idea what the document was named and I only vaguely remembered it was a PDF document. I did a find file on all the PDFs on my machine that showed me hundreds of documents. I didn't recognize any of the files as the one I wanted. Then I remembered that I sent the document to our marketing manager. In Six Degrees I focused on her in the Legend and it showed me all of the messages, files, and people we had in common. The list of files contained about 15 PDFs. After opening a few of them I found the document I needed. The name of the document you ask, 20010420-02. I didn't feel too bad about forgetting that.

<hr /></blockquote>

[ 07-22-2002, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: ls -al ]

Appleman · Jul 22, 2002, 06:18 AM

Speed, speed, and speed!

Diggory Laycock · Jul 22, 2002, 06:40 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kman42:
An iSchedule (I hate to even suggest the name) app.

All system-wide scheduling needs is a gui to cron and some unix calls in useful apps like Backup, Virex, the iApps, and anything else that wants to play. AppleScripts/Perl/Python scripts could all be called from the app (obviously). A good number of apps respond to AppleScripts, and UNIX calls could be written so that people could do stuff when not logged in. I think it would really help jumpstart scripting on OSX.

kman<hr /></blockquote>Have you tried Cronnix? <a href="http://www.koch-schmidt.de/cronnix/" target="_blank">http://www.koch-schmidt.de/cronnix/</a>

sgrup · Jul 22, 2002, 06:59 AM

and how about multiple desktops incorporated in 10.2 rather than having to use 3rd party software?

s

Cotton · Jul 22, 2002, 08:45 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> iCal
- Ability to send SMS messages to a mobile phone <hr /></blockquote>from <a href="http://www.apple.com/ical" target="_blank">iCal</a>page:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Be notified of upcoming events on screen, by email or text messaging to a mobile phone or pager<hr /></blockquote>

pliny · Jul 22, 2002, 09:49 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ls -al:
Frankly all the talk of .Mac is getting dull. Jaguar is almost upon us, we pretty much know what features are in. It's time to once again look forward. Post your vision of OS X v10.3

System Folder

- Revamped file hierarchy. All unix directories inside /System. Pervasive linking for unix directories like /usr, /var, /etc
- Ability to create a bootable folder by dragging System and Library folders.
� Automatically place items dropped into /Library in their respective places.

<hr /></blockquote>great list--I'm surprised this especially hasn't been implemented yet.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by krove:


Has everyone forgotten the Dock?!?

Dock Features that are a must:
-Drag and Drop into dock folders (navigate menus, etc)
-Ability to create separators (and somehow label the sections)
-Multiple docks (hit a key and dock switches to show new group of icons)
<hr /></blockquote>I saw this on the Applescript site the other day--dock scripts for 10.2 dock sets. <a href="http://www.apple.com/applescript/scripts/scripts.00.html" target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/applescript/scripts/scripts.00.html</a>

Ken_F2 · Jul 22, 2002, 11:33 AM

Lots of great ideas in this thread! Did anyone mention fast user switching?
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
- Dual Nics standard

What do you mean? Do you mean Apple should ship Macs with 2 ethernet cards?

- Load Balancing<hr /></blockquote>Well, the newest PC chipsets are incorporating dual NICs. It allows you to connect your cable modem to one computer, and then use the other NIC to share the Internet with another computer. Of course, there's always wireless, but some people actually want to take advantage of that gigabit networking (without having to buy a separate router/switch).

Also, load balancing between dual cable/dsl Internet connections would be quite cool. The routers that do this well tend to be difficult to setup, and they cost $$$$$$.

adamtki · Jul 22, 2002, 11:51 AM

- Fast UI. I don't know why but the UI stil feels slightly sluggish compared to windows. I work on both platforms and I still feel the difference.
- Multiple desktop sessions. So someone else can log in without me having to log out. This will work well with the next feature.
- Built in remote desktop!
- Customizable UI, including being able to turn off the fancy UI.

I think the version after 10.2 is a great opportunity for Apple to revamp the core features of the OS so that it can be clean and super responsive. I'm sure there were some compromises in internal design since Apple was rushing to get 10.0 out the door. Personally, I wouldn't mind waiting a whole year to see the next version. Apple could have minor releases in the meantime.

moss514 · Jul 22, 2002, 11:57 AM

...And a partridge in a pear tree!

biscuit · Jul 22, 2002, 12:05 PM

I think the biggest and best addition to 10.3 (Fat Tabby�) would be some sort of database/journaling filesystem. As pointed out above, so many more things are possible with extensive metadata and on-the-fly indexing. This all assumes of course that we'll have a speedy Finder able to utilise it all (and hopefully all other apps too).

This needs to be done ASAP, so that we can get rid of file extensions forever!

biscuit

sadie · Jul 22, 2002, 12:12 PM

Some excellent ideas here, and some ludicrously futuristic ones as well. Both are good.

I especially like the idea of Apple moving around the unix stuff. The messy legacy underpinnings of Darwin are a real problem. Using the power of unix, doesn't have to mean putting up with the 20-year old mess that other unices have left us with.

I think Darwin should diverge from other unices into a much more futuristic system.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Gecko in the system. XUL support Is this a good idea?<hr /></blockquote>No, it isn't. The desktop is not a webpage, and contrary to Microsoft's expectations, it never will be. At least, not mine.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />- Metadata galore!
- Industry wide standard to eliminate .extensions!!
- Smart Folders ala 'Smart Playlists'. The finder will automatically fill the folder based on criteria.
- Customizable folder badges/labels!
- Built in indexing daemon watching over all your files/saves.<hr /></blockquote>Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep! How many times do we need to say this? I do hope Apple really is listening.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />API for manipulating all iApps<hr /></blockquote>AppleScript, you mean?

And wow, that is one big cat.

ls -al · Jul 23, 2002, 02:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sadie:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Gecko in the system. XUL support Is this a good idea?<hr /></blockquote>No, it isn't. The desktop is not a webpage, and contrary to Microsoft's expectations, it never will be. At least, not mine.
<hr /></blockquote>No, no I mean as a standard API for embedding into other apps. Replacing the current HTML rendering API.

Also here's what has been lost in the OS 9-OS X transition

1. Scheduled wake up and shut down. Does anyone miss this? Especially in the presense of fast wake-up and always on?

2. Graphic Calculator (was very cool). Although as 3rd party app from PacificTech it was mildly useful.

3. Document security. IMHO replaced by the superior AES encrypted disk images.

4. Themes. I doubt they'll be back.

5. Chooser. Autorecognition of devices. Back with Rendezvous.

6. "My voice is my password" Remember that

7. Game sprockets. QD3D/ RAVE. Although this died a long time ago.

8. Location manager. This would be really cool....

9. Theater mode sound support.

In addition, here's some ideas for new features:

Integrated Download manager based on cURL that can be used by all apps..
HFS+ support for rsync and a nice UI for rsync/cron.

JLL · Jul 23, 2002, 03:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Codename:
 <img src="http://www.tubcat.com/other_cats/kraks_watching_squirrel.jpg" alt=" - " />
<hr /></blockquote>Fat cat looks at fat squirrel.

BlackGriffen · Jul 23, 2002, 04:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ls -al:
 System Folder

- Revamped file hierarchy. All unix directories inside /System. Pervasive linking for unix directories like /usr, /var, /etc
<hr /></blockquote>Not gonna happen (I hope). They're invisible now, what advantage do you hope to gain from moving them in to /System ? putting /bin and /sbin in to /System would be like moving /Applications in there. /usr also shouldn't be moved because it is the equivalent of /Users (contains local info and applications, including its own bin and sbin directories). Moving them won't improve drag and drop, because you'll need to make sym-links in the destination anyway. The /private directory could probably be moved, but what's the point? Especially since it contains a lot of information that would make more sense in the /Library directory. You'd also need to recreate the sym-links to /private/etc and /private/var if you try to drag and drop a system folder that you've moved /private in to.

You've also got the kernel at /mach.sym and/or /mach_kernel. IIRC, the kernel needs to be in the / folder, so the best Apple could do for you there would be to add a hard link to the file in /System to help support drag and drop (you'd still need to make a new hard link once you've moved it, though, so what's the point?).

All in all this sounds like a pretty bad idea to me.

BlackGriffen

gerbnl · Jul 23, 2002, 04:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
- Component technology

What is this?
<hr /></blockquote>Yeah!

OpenDoc done right this time

ls -al · Jul 23, 2002, 05:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ls -al:
 System Folder

- Revamped file hierarchy. All unix directories inside /System. Pervasive linking for unix directories like /usr, /var, /etc
<hr /></blockquote>Not gonna happen (I hope). They're invisible now, what advantage do you hope to gain from moving them in to /System ? putting /bin and /sbin in to /System would be like moving /Applications in there. /usr also shouldn't be moved because it is the equivalent of /Users (contains local info and applications, including its own bin and sbin directories). Moving them won't improve drag and drop, because you'll need to make sym-links in the destination anyway. The /private directory could probably be moved, but what's the point? Especially since it contains a lot of information that would make more sense in the /Library directory. You'd also need to recreate the sym-links to /private/etc and /private/var if you try to drag and drop a system folder that you've moved /private in to.

You've also got the kernel at /mach.sym and/or /mach_kernel. IIRC, the kernel needs to be in the / folder, so the best Apple could do for you there would be to add a hard link to the file in /System to help support drag and drop (you'd still need to make a new hard link once you've moved it, though, so what's the point?).

All in all this sounds like a pretty bad idea to me.

BlackGriffen<hr /></blockquote>Completely disagree.

The issue at hand is transportability. And perhaps one of elegance. In OS 9 you can make a bootable drive by dragging a system folder to a drive. In OS X it is complicated because of the directory structure. Here's what I suggest.

Put everything in /System upon first boot automatically create the necessary symlinks to /usr, /bin, /sbin, /var, etc... The system automatically creates these symlinks if they are not present! A Self healing System Folder would be great. Also, the /System should be able to recreate/reset the permissions on boot, I've seen too many bad installers screw up the permissions in /System/Library.

It really shouldn't effect anything. In case you didn't realize /cores, /etc and /tmp are already Symlinks! And directories like "Cleanup At Startup" and "TheFindByContentFolder" are automatically created on startup.

Mongrel · Jul 23, 2002, 05:35 PM

My 10.2 Prediction - .mac will come home.

OS 10.2 will only run on Macs shipped in December 2003 and beyond... Instead of a power button, they'll have a built-in card slider, like a pay-at-the pump gas station. We'll get charged $6.00 to turn on or reset our computers. Each additional user on that machine adds .50 to each boot fee.

Steve will justify this by asking, "How often do you really need to restart Mac OS X anyway?"

<img src="http://thermobiostar.tripod.com/photos/finalp_mac.jpg" alt=" - " />

Maybe a visual would help... heh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[ 07-23-2002, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Mongrel ]

CharlesS · Jul 23, 2002, 05:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ls -al:
 System Folder

- Revamped file hierarchy. All unix directories inside /System. Pervasive linking for unix directories like /usr, /var, /etc
<hr /></blockquote>Not gonna happen (I hope). They're invisible now, what advantage do you hope to gain from moving them in to /System ? putting /bin and /sbin in to /System would be like moving /Applications in there. /usr also shouldn't be moved because it is the equivalent of /Users (contains local info and applications, including its own bin and sbin directories). Moving them won't improve drag and drop, because you'll need to make sym-links in the destination anyway. The /private directory could probably be moved, but what's the point? Especially since it contains a lot of information that would make more sense in the /Library directory. You'd also need to recreate the sym-links to /private/etc and /private/var if you try to drag and drop a system folder that you've moved /private in to.

You've also got the kernel at /mach.sym and/or /mach_kernel. IIRC, the kernel needs to be in the / folder, so the best Apple could do for you there would be to add a hard link to the file in /System to help support drag and drop (you'd still need to make a new hard link once you've moved it, though, so what's the point?).

All in all this sounds like a pretty bad idea to me.

BlackGriffen<hr /></blockquote>What are the advantages? Well, for one, all the folders that you need root access to mess with are all in one place - /System. Secondly, the folders won't need to be hidden anymore - the only things that need to be hidden will be the mach files and a bunch of symlinks, so you don't have hundreds of MB's of hidden files anymore, with the result that, for example, users can Get Info on everything on the root level of their hard drives and not have a whole lot of space come up unaccounted for (I know, for example, that this would confuse the hell out of my dad if he were using OS X). Having the UNIX folders in /System would make the file system organization cleaner and simpler - all the non-user-modifiable files in one place, simple and easy to understand, without having to have prior knowledge of UNIX and without needing to resort to the kludge of hiding files to let the user know he's not supposed to modify those folders.

Secondly, and more importantly, you could use drag-and-drop to copy a System Folder. Sure, the Finder would have to be updated so that it would ask you for your admin password to do this. It would also need to automatically make some soft links (and one hard link for mach_kernel) afterwards. This isn't so bad when you think about it - in OS 9, the system actually didn't only copy the files when you copied a System Folder either - it automatically blessed the folder and set the disk's boot blocks.

CharlesS · Jul 23, 2002, 05:44 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ls -al:
Here's what I suggest.

Put everything in /System upon first boot automatically create the necessary symlinks to /usr, /bin, /sbin, /var, etc... The system automatically creates these symlinks if they are not present! A Self healing System Folder would be great. Also, the /System should be able to recreate/reset the permissions on boot, I've seen too many bad installers screw up the permissions in /System/Library.

It really shouldn't effect anything. In case you didn't realize /cores, /etc and /tmp are already Symlinks! And directories like "Cleanup At Startup" and "TheFindByContentFolder" are automatically created on startup.<hr /></blockquote>This would be neat if it were possible, but the mach_kernel would have to be modified in such a way that it could run from /System instead of needing to be at the root. This could probably be done, theoretically, since mach_kernel is open-source, but I'm not sure it has much chance of happening, unfortunately.

Having the Finder create this stuff on moving the System Folder is a good second, though, and is similar to blessing the folder under 9.

Jerommeke · Jul 23, 2002, 05:52 PM

price:

$ 25.00 per day of usage.

RyanG3 · Jul 23, 2002, 06:18 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Appleman:
Speed, speed, and speed!<hr /></blockquote>I second that!!!
Hopefully some killer, cutting edge hardware to help the speed cause!! I must say the hardware we have now is just fine for Word, but when crunching video, more speed would be help save time.

iRei · Jul 23, 2002, 08:12 PM

optimized code
speed
better compilers
altivec as much as possible
video drivers as good as pc ones
FreeBSD 5.x
multiple workspaces

ls -al · Jul 23, 2002, 11:16 PM

Guys, most the suggestions seem to be incremental improvements, more speed refined dock etc. None of you have any big ideas?

Post some zany and fun stuff that should make it to 10.3!

pooka · Jul 24, 2002, 12:58 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ls -al:
Guys, most the suggestions seem to be incremental improvements, more speed refined dock etc. None of you have any big ideas?

Post some zany and fun stuff that should make it to 10.3!<hr /></blockquote>How about real freakin open/save dialogs. I would much rather pay $130 for that vs iCrap. Just my opinion.

Jasoco · Jul 24, 2002, 02:37 AM

Ok, here's something I'd like to see. I mean REALLY see in the next update.

You guys know AppleScript, right?

Well, whenever you run a script you have to launch it and watch it bounce a couple times. WHAT IF, and it's a big IF, the Script Runner was built-in to the OS. What kind of uses would this have?

Well, think about this. IMMEDIATELY RUNNING SCRIPTS.

Now. One good use would be with iTunes. Make scripts that Pause/Play, Next and Back that act in realtime. I would put these in a DragThing Dock and make my own remote floating above the rest of the OS. OR, place the scripts on the FKeys so when you hit F1 it pauses, F2 rewinds, F3 next and so on. All without having to wait for the Script to load. I've not seen many good utilities to control iTunes that work how I want them to.

I mean, it's only natural the "Script Runner" app be built-in.

jock · Jul 24, 2002, 04:00 AM

I for one like the function of find by content, so I would not like to see that thrown out.
1.I would also like to see some sort of Novell client login, that way you could plug a mac into any common network, just think how many people that will not have the excuse that a mac is not compatible!
2. Better support for proxy servers namely microsoft!
3. Calander to sync with outlook/entourage and use the pst file.
4. Better SCSI support for older scanners, yes Umax thats you!
5. Appleworks to have a real database that actually works with Access, this might not be too far off as I see there is an ODBC manager in X.2
just my 2 cents

sadie · Jul 24, 2002, 04:19 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jasoco:
I mean, it's only natural the "Script Runner" app be built-in.<hr /></blockquote>I'll vote for that. If you think of a script as a kind of program, then loading another program first is just silly. The same goes for all the other forms of language you can write for.

And I definitely would like to see a rearranged /System folder. It would just make the system so much neater.

In fact, maybe once we've collected all the ideas people have, we should have a vote? See what people really want from it? (but not until after we have the ideas collected - don't want to miss half of them out, do we?)

JKT · Jul 24, 2002, 05:12 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ls -al:
- Smart Folders ala 'Smart Playlists'. The finder will automatically fill the folder based on criteria.
- Customizable folder badges/labels!<hr /></blockquote>The Smart Folders idea would be incredible. You'd never have to navigate a Save dialogue again - just save your Appleworks file to the Desktop and it would be whisked off to your "Newly created AW files" Smart folder automatically. File management would be a breeze - want to locate all the image files you created in July 2001? Just create a Smart folder that is set to contain aliases to them all.

How difficult would this be to implement with the current file structure - would it be a way to bypass the need to create something anew like the BeFS?

For future features I'd like to see, I'll stick in my new Finder view idea that I posted in another thread:
<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/jtyzack/.Pictures/newfinderidea.png" alt=" - " />

How it would work: The .graffle file highlighted in red in the middle is the document I've been working on. I've inserted various bits of text, images, etc from numerous files spread all over my disk(s), and I want to find the source document for one of the images I inserted, but I've forgotten what it is likely to be. This Finder view shows the heritage of that .graffle file and the files/text I inserted into it. I would be able to navigate up the various links (represented by the arrows) to get to e.g. the source .Tiff (in the bottom left) for the .JPEG that I inserted into my original .graffle file. Contextual menu options would allow me to show that .Tiff in a normal Finder window or open it, etc, or I could travel further down the links to see what other documents I used that .Tiff in. Etc, etc.

korn · Jul 24, 2002, 05:23 AM

Smart Folders ala 'Smart Playlists'. The finder will automatically fill the folder based on criteria.

This would work ith certain files, but not with most files � If you upload music into itunes without an internet connection , you wont have the information on that file that the smart playlist uses to recognise the file , meaning you have to fill in manually this info � with your average file , created by yourself , this info has to be added manually as no internet database could have that info � this would not safe time at all �� what could be possible is that the finder ads info to thee files everytime the file is saved and moved etc � a computerbased file info database would build up and would start to guess what you want to do with files � i doubt this is a usefull feature and it also has some dangerous side effects � default folder is a much cleaner and simpler solution � apple should buy and build df in the finder �

CharlesS · Jul 24, 2002, 05:55 AM

JKT: Could Smart Folders possibly be implemented using AppleScript Folder Actions? You can do some pretty neat things with AppleScript...

sadie, ls -al: If you want to see the reorganized /System folder, send feedback to Apple. I've sent mine a long time ago. They need to fix the Installer to respect symlinks; other than that, it's perfectly feasible and trivial to do this.

JKT · Jul 24, 2002, 06:17 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CharlesS:
JKT: Could Smart Folders possibly be implemented using AppleScript Folder Actions? You can do some pretty neat things with AppleScript...<hr /></blockquote>I honestly haven't got the foggiest - Applescript is something of a black box to me. But if it can, then I want to know how

ls -al · Jul 24, 2002, 06:23 AM

I just sent my feedback to Apple on the /System organization. Anyone interested in this drop a line back to Apple!

The Jackalope · Jul 24, 2002, 11:15 AM

I predict that it will come with incessant bitching from users.

kman42 · Jul 24, 2002, 11:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by korn:
 Smart Folders ala 'Smart Playlists'. The finder will automatically fill the folder based on criteria.

This would work ith certain files, but not with most files � If you upload music into itunes without an internet connection , you wont have the information on that file that the smart playlist uses to recognise the file , meaning you have to fill in manually this info � with your average file , created by yourself , this info has to be added manually as no internet database could have that info � this would not safe time at all �� what could be possible is that the finder ads info to thee files everytime the file is saved and moved etc � a computerbased file info database would build up and would start to guess what you want to do with files � i doubt this is a usefull feature and it also has some dangerous side effects � default folder is a much cleaner and simpler solution � apple should buy and build df in the finder �<hr /></blockquote>Of course it could work with most files. Most files have a name, a creator, an extension, a creation date, a modified date. Just that bit of metadata would be useful in a smart folders scheme. Then imagine if Apple really did implement a database-like filesystem ala BeOS. Metadata out the wazoo!

I can envision this right now. Smart folders have a little badge on them (just like iTunes playlists) to prevent users from getting confused. Perhaps smart folders should only contain aliases, similar to iTunes playlists which are just aliases to the Library. Any thoughts on that? I can see pros and cons.

kman

ls -al · Jul 24, 2002, 05:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kman42:
[QUOTE]

I can envision this right now. Smart folders have a little badge on them (just like iTunes playlists) to prevent users from getting confused. Perhaps smart folders should only contain aliases, similar to iTunes playlists which are just aliases to the Library. Any thoughts on that? I can see pros and cons.

kman<hr /></blockquote>A smart folder is essentially a dynamic view into the filespace (technically a database query matching certain criteria...). In essence a smart folder does not contain anything. It is just a dynamic snapshot of the filespace. A smart folder should not move a file around. If a file is updated it is automagically reflected in the Smart folder.

CharlesS, yes you can setup quasi smart folders using FolderActions. But it is a kludge at best. Real smart folders will require a some kind of a database (not necessarily a DBFS, BeOS contrary to popular myth did not have a true DBFS).

Once you have a database, metadata starts to play a very important role. For example you can add multiple tags to a file. These could include information like:

Last opened on, File received from, File uploaded to .., File forwarded to. Each application which manipulates the file can add its own meta-data to the file. For example Photoshop may add Colorspace, last printed on, CMYK seperation parameters, etc as meta-data.

The user can use the metadata to create folders such as: All files created in the last week, belonging to the project "Corporate collateral", received from the printer which had transparency issues.

Or files received or modified in the last week, that are greater than 200 MB, and were marked TBD.

Of course, it would be much cooler, if a standardized platform independent extensible file metadata format was adopted, much like ID3 tags!!

Until then smart folders will be partially useful...