[Shaddim]

I know these can get kinda prickly, but let's just have a nice chat about home audio. It doesn't have to be high-end, just the stuff we have and what we like. M'kay?

Plus, I want to move my discussion with Eug from the bowels of the PL.

Originally Posted by Eug 

Well, part of it was the looks/design, part of it was lack of availability locally, and part of it was the "merely" very good rating for its musicality.

Some suggest the SVS PB13-Ultra has cleaner music than the HSU, albeit for a higher price. That was my prime concern. Not only that though, it also looks better IMO, and there is a local dealer so I don't have to pay shipping. Plus I get a 5% discount since I'm a previous SVS customer, so the pricing isn't as high as it might have been for me.

Here are one set of comparative ratings (home theatre score/music score):

Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2200 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48)
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Acculine A-sub ($289 ID/SI): 85 points (provisional, currently out of production) (40-45)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)

Ideally I should have just kept the money in the bank, but you have to spend your money some time. After this, it will be my last speaker purchase for a very, very long time, unless I absolutely hate it or something. So I figure buying it now as opposed to 2 years from now (when I cash in my AAPL) can't hurt. It's not $10000 though.

If cost were a bigger concern, I'll probably get the AV123 MFW-15 instead, although that's several months backordered as well I think.

I can understand that, I'm very picky with bass and SVS are usually backordered for a reason, they have the best bang-for-the-buck in the retail subwoofer market. Lots of subs can get you below 20Hz but very few can do it and still remain musical in the mid-bass area. I'm actually surprised that a build similar to mine is rated so high (Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15), I think it's really nice for the price, something like $900 w/o amp, but I don't find it to be particularly musical. It's not bad, but I can tell that it lags a little behind my Wilson MAXX (upgraded to Series 2) towers, which is why I want a pair of Thor's Hammers..

I look at my speakers as a long term investment and I don't see myself trading up any time soon, if ever. Unless I find a crazy deal on a pair of Alexandria X-2s, which is highly unlikely.

[jebjeb]

Very nice with the MAXX's. What size is your room? What are you driving them with?

I currently have a pair of Meridian DSP5000's which I am currently selling. I am moving up to either some the Ascent, Odyssey or Vantage, all from Martin Logan.

Probably going to drive them with a Musical Fidelity A5cr power amp feeding from my Denon surround receiver. Will then look for a processor upgrade in the future.

Will see how things go over the next few weeks as I am moving house so that takes priority!

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

It doesn't have to be high-end, just the stuff we have and what we like. M'kay?

'Kay!

Amp: Harman/Kardon AVR347
CD/DVD: Harman/Kardon DVD23
Front speaker: Linn Keilidh
Centre speaker: Linn AV5120
Rear speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 9.1
Sub: Klipsch RW-12

I love it....my neigbours probaly don't!

[Mrjinglesusa]

Receiver: Yamaha V1700
Front L/R Speakers: Infinity Primus 360s
Center Speaker: Infinity Primus C25
Rear Surround Speakers: Infinity Primus 160s
Subwoofer: Infinity PS10
CD: 60 GB PS3 (allows for SACD playback)

Next Home Audio purchase will be a new subwoofer but not until we move to a bigger house. I get plenty of low frequency and bass with the Infinity.

[dav]

pre-amp: rotel rc-972
amp: rotel rb-981
speakers: vienna acoustics bach
sub: adire audio rava se

[Mastrap]

I just picked up a mid 70's B&O stereo in mint condition, with original speakers, for $100. Not high end in any way, but I like it. I also still use a 1955 Braun stereo amp with original speakers to listen to vinyl. Sounds good to me.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by jebjeb 

Very nice with the MAXX's. What size is your room? What are you driving them with?

I use a Krell FPB 700cx from an Integra Research RDC-7.1. My new HT/listening room is ~840 sq/ft.

[BadKosh]

Pre-Amps - DB Systems DB1a, Crown IC150a
Power Amps - DB System DB4, Crown PSA-2
Speakers - KEF 104aB (x4), JBL 4311 (x2)
Turntable FONS CQ-30
Tonearm - SME type 2 with type 3 fluid damper added
Cart. - Grace F9e Super, ClearAudio Virtuoso
Powerbook 12" as iTunes portal to 'big sound system'

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

I just picked up a mid 70's B&O stereo in mint condition, with original speakers, for $100. Not high end in any way, but I like it. I also still use a 1955 Braun stereo amp with original speakers to listen to vinyl. Sounds good to me.

How many watts does that Braun put out? I love vintage tube gear, amps like that have fantastic "personalities" all their own.

[Doofy]

Pre-Amp: Soundcraft Ghost.
Amp: In speakers.
Speakers: Mackie HR824.
Sub: Mackie HRS120.
Source: Mac Pro.

I ain't fussy.

[Shaddim]

Well, I'd imagine you largely use studio gear, considering your line of work.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Well, I'd imagine you largely use studio gear, considering your line of work.

Yep. One of these days when I figure out what all those names up there are I'm going to have to buy myself a proper hi-fi. Beyond Linn, Quad and a couple others I ain't got the slightest idea.

Any ideas which mags to read to get a better clue?

[Eug]

Living room system

Receiver: Sony STR-DG500
Fronts: Paradigm Monitor 7
Centre: Paradigm CC-150
Rear centres: not supported
Rears: none
Sub: none

Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD PVR
Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD player (wirelessly networked)
Toshiba 42HL67 768p 42" LCD TV




Home theatre room system

Receiver: Sony STR-DG800
Fronts: Paradigm Reference Studio 60
Centre: Paradigm Reference CC
Rear centres: none
Rears: Paradigm Titan (They used to be the Monitor 7 but I didn't have the room at this time.)
Sub: SVS 25-31PC, to be replaced by an SVS PB13-Ultra

Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD PVR
Xbox 360 with HD DVD drive (wirelessly networked)
Panasonic PT-AX200U 720p 3LCD projector
Cube and sometimes a MacBook (both wirelessly networked) hooked up to the projector too.




I also have multiple rooms with in-the-wall speakers, hooked up through two central receivers. The rooms each have their own volume controls.


I wanted the new SVS PB13-Ultra sub for its musicality. The older SVS 25-31PC doesn't cut it for that. It does provide some bass pressure for movies, but it doesn't really go below 22 Hz either. The PB13-Ultra should solve both problems, and looks better too.



Ironically, I don't listen to music much on my higher end system. The sub is for home theatre, but I just want tighter bass for that. Most of the music I listen to is either the radio at low volume through my in-the-wall speakers, or else my iPod.

P.S. I paid $129 for both of my Sony receivers on closeout. I've had a number of receivers, and they've all pretty much sounded similar to me. And yes, I've tested a $300 Pioneer against a $10000 Macintosh, side by side (using the same speakers). There were small differences, but the differences were way less than what was apparent with different speakers. So, I choose to spend my money on the speakers and other hardware and not so much on the receivers. I'll upgrade my main receiver for the home theatre later, but more for features than pure sound quality.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

How many watts does that Braun put out? I love vintage tube gear, amps like that have fantastic "personalities" all their own.

10 on each channel. But that's plenty for the room it lives in.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Yep. One of these days when I figure out what all those names up there are I'm going to have to buy myself a proper hi-fi. Beyond Linn, Quad and a couple others I ain't got the slightest idea.

Any ideas which mags to read to get a better clue?

Well, how much are you looking at "investing"?

My personal favorites are Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. It really depends on what type of audio person you are.

The most important aspect of home audio is your speakers. IMO, a person should spend a lot of time auditioning different types, brands, and models, then get the best you can actually afford (and then some). They are your system's "personality". Some people like a clinical, neutral sound, for them I'd recommend Paradigm, Vandersteen, and Wilson. Others prefer a laid back, relaxed sound, they might like Infinity or B&W. It all depends on taste and budget. Personally, I'm a Wilson guy for most things, but in the library I keep a 2 channel B&W system, with a tube amp, for vinyl.

Anyway, speakers are the main concern. After that, there's controversy. I believe that electronics make a difference, not as much as your monitors, but they do impact your sound. So I put a good amount of money into electronics. The problem is, there's a high rate of evolution in electronics. Maybe not so much in amplifiers, but in pre/pros and media players things are always in a state of change. That's why I tend to go with separates that are upgradeable, like those from Integra Research.

Personally, I don't buy into expensive cables, esoteric line conditioners, and those types of things. However, I do know people who swear by those things, and if that blows their hair back, so be it. That doesn't mean I don't have pricey cables, but they came with my speakers and were thrust upon me.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

10 on each channel. But that's plenty for the room it lives in.

There's really no reason to get a monster amp if you're listening to music in a smaller room, and 10 watts goes a lot farther than people think. Besides, those little tube jobs can fool you.

[hyteckit]

I have this:

JBL - 12" 500-Watt Powered Subwoofer - SUB 12

but I think I paid $150 for it a while ago.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

There's really no reason to get a monster amp if you're listening to music in a smaller room, and 10 watts goes a lot farther than people think. Besides, those little tube jobs can fool you.

True that. It's coupled with a 1970's DUAL turntable with decent cables and a NAD phono amp. It has a lovely, warm sound.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Well, how much are you looking at "investing"?

Dunno. Anywhere up to, say, $20k? $30k? <shrug>

Not right now though. Too busy with the "other" audio to listen for entertainment. And it looks like I'm gonna have to do some extensive research, no?

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

My personal favorites are Stereophile and The Absolute Sound.

Cheers. Will go read those.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

It really depends on what type of audio person you are.

Old school, I guess. Big hefty frightening speakers and stuff like that. A quick look on the Tannoy site gets me liking the Westminsters - they look like they'd sound like my cup of tea. I mean, I'm not really going to go play "I Am A Viking" on a set of dainty hi-tech jobbies now am I?

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

The most important aspect of home audio is your speakers. IMO, a person should spend a lot of time auditioning different types, brands, and models, then get the best you can actually afford (and then some). They are your system's "personality".

This is where I get confused.
Spent most of my life trying for speakers with no personality - the quest for the perfect flat, so to speak. To go choose some with personality will take some getting my head around.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Some people like a clinical, neutral sound, for them I'd recommend Paradigm, Vandersteen, and Wilson.

See, that's what I'm talking about. I've never heard of those brands.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Anyway, speakers are the main concern. After that, there's controversy. I believe that electronics make a difference, not as much as your monitors, but they do impact your sound. So I put a good amount of money into electronics. The problem is, there's a high rate of evolution in electronics. Maybe not so much in amplifiers, but in pre/pros and media players things are always in a state of change. That's why I tend to go with separates that are upgradeable, like those from Integra Research.

Personally, I don't buy into expensive cables, esoteric line conditioners, and those types of things. However, I do know people who swear by those things, and if that blows their hair back, so be it. That doesn't mean I don't have pricey cables, but they came with my speakers and were thrust upon me.

Yep. I'm up with all that side of things. Aside from brands, of course.

Cheers for the info and those links - will go study them.

[cjrivera]

Preamp: Rotel RSP-1068
Amps: Rotel RMB-1095 & RB-1092
DVD/SACD: Sony DVP-NS3100ES
Front: B&W 802N
Center: B&W HTM-1
Sides: B&W SCM-S
Rears: B&W 804N
BluRay: Sony PS3
Projector: Sony VPL-HS20

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Not right now though. Too busy with the "other" audio to listen for entertainment. And it looks like I'm gonna have to do some extensive research, no?

That's the best part. I love checking out new gear and visiting various hi-fi shops, but that's just me. I'll hang out at a store for hours, if they let me.

Old school, I guess. Big hefty frightening speakers and stuff like that. A quick look on the Tannoy site gets me liking the Westminsters - they look like they'd sound like my cup of tea. I mean, I'm not really going to go play "I Am A Viking" on a set of dainty hi-tech jobbies now am I?

Those sure are beefy. Not that I can say much, my Wilsons are almost the size of a refrigerator and weigh about 186kg each.

If you have a showroom on that side of the pond, I strongly recommend looking into Wilson's WATT or Sophia lines. They're rather large brutes with a great neutral sound.

These guys seem to be fairly close.

Home Page

[Person Man]

YouTube - Greek Audiophile

Wait until you get to the section where the men talk about how much money they spent on their sound systems. Then look at their wives' faces as they hear how much money they spent. Priceless.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

YouTube - Greek Audiophile

Wait until you get to the section where the men talk about how much money they spent on their sound systems. Then look at their wives' faces as they hear how much money they spent. Priceless.

I have a close friend who is extremely addicted, granted he's quite wealthy so it doesn't cause him financial hardship, but I know he's spent north of $500K on equipment. He spent almost a quarter million on his current speakers, a pair of Wilson WAMM VII. He has almost as much in his turntable (an SME 30) as I have in my entire main system, and each of his monoblock amps (Levinson No.33) were over $30k. So, when I think about the money I've spent, it doesn't make me feel as bad.

Do I think he's off his rocker? Maybe a little, but he's harmless and it makes him happy. I'll admit, it is fun to go over and listen to what he's put together. It really does sound better than any other rig that I've ever heard.

[jebjeb]

Doofy: I agree with all the advice Shaddim has offered but would add that you put Meridian on your list. Their DSP range of speakers are all fully active with built in DAC's so you can just feed them (up to two co-ax digital inputs) straight from a good sound card on your machine. It simplifies the whole setup a heap, if you only have digital sources.

Good neutral sound though.

I have spent quite a bit of time with some Wilson Watt/Puppy 5.1's and am a big fan.

Best British (if not world) hifi mag is HiFi News. HiFi+ is good as well but a little up-its-self in my view.

I'm off to audition some Martin Logan Vantage's tomorrow. Just hope I can get past the wife approval factor (that's why she is coming along!).

[Doofy]

Cheers for that info Jeb.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by jebjeb 

I'm off to audition some Martin Logan Vantage's tomorrow. Just hope I can get past the wife approval factor (that's why she is coming along!).

I'm not a huge fan of electrostats, though I did own a set of Magnepans for a while. They were really nice for Jazz and certain classical pieces. Do you have a lot of experience with electrostats?

[Shaddim]

So, here's the touchy subject. Are fancy cables "snake oil"? What about top (or even middle) tier electronics? $20+K speakers? Where is the point that something is hogwash (if a point even exists)?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

So, here's the touchy subject. Are fancy cables "snake oil"?

Heh. Let's have an argument about SUVs while we're at it.

From a studio viewpoint, as long as the cables are good, there's no point in spending extra moola on hyped ones. Yep, there's a major difference between average and good, but we don't bother with the difference between very very very good and very very very very good.

If we think about that, it makes the whole top end cable thing a little stupid. The most anal of audiophiles are paying thousands for cables to reproduce recorded information which we didn't put there in the first place because we don't use those same cables.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

What about top (or even middle) tier electronics?

Yep. There's a difference. Law of diminishing returns applies though, obviously.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

$20+K speakers?

Yep. Worth it.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Where is the point that something is hogwash (if a point even exists)?

I guess it's at the point I just mentioned - when you're into the realm of trying to reproduce stuff which isn't in the recording in the first place.

[CollinG3G4]

What kind of cables do I need to move a set of Soundsticks farther away from the accompanying sub?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Heh. Let's have an argument about SUVs while we're at it.

From a studio viewpoint, as long as the cables are good, there's no point in spending extra moola on hyped ones. Yep, there's a major difference between average and good, but we don't bother with the difference between very very very good and very very very very good.

If we think about that, it makes the whole top end cable thing a little stupid. The most anal of audiophiles are paying thousands for cables to reproduce recorded information which we didn't put there in the first place because we don't use those same cables.

On my rig (the main one with the Wilsons) I have some pretty high dollar cables mixed in with some mid-range, Transparent Reference XL and Silvercats. Not too long ago I was thinking about upgrading all of my cabling on that system to Transparent, just for the sake of completeness. It's almost like wanting to get some cool new rims for your car, kinda silly but in your mind you can almost justify the expense.

Yep. There's a difference. Law of diminishing returns applies though, obviously.

Is $5000 too much to spend for a 5% increase in performance? Most audiophiles would say "hell no", but I often have my doubts. It seems that whenever I get around my crazed, audio junkie, friends I start to get jittery and I want to tear down my stereo and start upgrading. The worst part is, I know it's irrational.

I guess it's at the point I just mentioned - when you're into the realm of trying to reproduce stuff which isn't in the recording in the first place.

There's quite a variance in what certain studios use, I've been to some where it's very minimalist and they use shockingly crappy gear. However, I've been to others where they have all manner of exotic monitors, amps, cables, etc.. It's difficult to discern where the middle ground is, if one even exists. A while back I had the chance to visit a top-tier sound effects lab and they had gear that would make almost any enthusiast drool. I asked them if they really needed Wilson speakers, Levinson amps, $10K speaker cables, and such, and they told me that since they're mixing for big studios they'd rather be guilty of excess than make mistakes. That made quite an impact on me.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Is $5000 too much to spend for a 5% increase in performance? Most audiophiles would say "hell no", but I often have my doubts.

Depends. How many hours do you have to work to make $5,000 ? Is the $5k the life savings or a couple hours' interest?

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

There's quite a variance in what certain studios use, I've been to some where it's very minimalist and they use shockingly crappy gear. However, I've been to others where they have all manner of exotic monitors, amps, cables, etc..

Of course. But whether it's chock full of SSL or got a home built board sitting on a beer crate, a few factors are almost always the same. Like the first link in the chain - the microphone cable. The most expensive my suppliers provide is about $5 per metre. Hazard a guess that if your interlink cable is pricier than this you're wasting money, since the detail lost in that initial cable run is never going to show up no matter how solid your silver core.

Don't let 'em fool ya - a lot of the gear in those big studios is to make the clients go "wow" (it's like nuclear proliferation during the Cold War) - everything ends up getting mixed on the crappy $200 Yamaha monitors anyways.

(Having said that, I wouldn't mind a Neve desk. With crappy $200 Yamaha monitors sitting on the meter bridge, of course. )

[Eug]

Got the SVS PB13-Ultra sub yesterday. Big improvement over my old 25-31PC, even just on initial testing. Even without proper calibration, the PB13-Ultra is much tighter bass.

The biggest annoyance is actually my closet door. It rattles. I think I'll put some weather stripping in it to tighten it up to stop the rattling.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

So, here's the touchy subject. Are fancy cables "snake oil"?

Yes and no. Usually they're much better built. Better shielding and better construction quality. That said, you don't need to spend $500 for an interconnect. Furthermore, high-end interconnects or speaker wires won't actually sound better. This has been shown time and again on blinded testing. The only times high-end interconnects or speaker wires have been "shown" to sound better in testing is with non-blinded testing. Placebo effect goes a very long way.

What about top (or even middle) tier electronics?

Yes and no. Often they're better built, and may have better components. That said, you don't need to spend $10000 for a good amplifier for a home theatre system. Also, audible differences in sound are not always obvious either even if an amplifier does have better components.

Like I said before I've compared a $300 Pioneer next to a $10000 Macintosh amp (using the same speakers - I don't remember the model). Did they sound different? Maybe, maybe not, but whatever the case it wasn't enough difference for me to justify the $9700 price increase. I'd much rather put (part of) the money into the speakers.

$20+K speakers?

Yes and no. I've seen a lot of $20k speakers that are more gimmick than actually being good. However, there is no question that an no-holds-barred 20K speaker setup using proper speaker design principles can easily top a similarly-designed $5000 system.

Oh and something I don't understand:

I've seen pictures of $50000 systems that look like that they were set up on the set of the Trailer Park Boys. To be honest, I'd rather have a $30000 system, and then spend the other $20000 on renovations to the room and/or new furniture.

[jebjeb]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I'm not a huge fan of electrostats, though I did own a set of Magnepans for a while. They were really nice for Jazz and certain classical pieces. Do you have a lot of experience with electrostats?

Quite a bit of experience. I just love the midrange they do. Just went and had a listen to some Martin Logan Vantage's and I think I am going to grab them. Just wonderful. I was surprised how good they were compared to the Summit's.

Just gotta find something to drive them now...

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Depends. How many hours do you have to work to make $5,000 ? Is the $5k the life savings or a couple hours' interest?

Of course. But whether it's chock full of SSL or got a home built board sitting on a beer crate, a few factors are almost always the same. Like the first link in the chain - the microphone cable. The most expensive my suppliers provide is about $5 per metre. Hazard a guess that if your interlink cable is pricier than this you're wasting money, since the detail lost in that initial cable run is never going to show up no matter how solid your silver core.

Don't let 'em fool ya - a lot of the gear in those big studios is to make the clients go "wow" (it's like nuclear proliferation during the Cold War) - everything ends up getting mixed on the crappy $200 Yamaha monitors anyways.

(Having said that, I wouldn't mind a Neve desk. With crappy $200 Yamaha monitors sitting on the meter bridge, of course. )

I've heard this before and it's partly why I've never gone insane in regards to cables, but I also have seen cheap cables that were the culprit when a rig sounded poorly. Usually, however, it's a bad or poorly soldered connector. A fairly wise audiophile once told me the secret to buying wires, and components in general, is a basic formula for spending.

A well balanced system is:

60% Speakers
30% Electronics
10% Cables and interconnects

Truth be told, I've spent much less than 10% on cables, more like 5%. So my breakdown would look more like: 65/30/5. Because of that I seem to always look at my wiring with a degree of suspicion. I've not skimped and went with bulk retail offerings, such as Acoustic Research or Monster, usually I'll only consider cabling that has been assembled by hand and have locking connectors. Also, a good friend of mine runs a local business named CatCables and I get decent discounts on his products.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I've heard this before and it's partly why I've never gone insane in regards to cables, but I also have seen cheap cables that were the culprit when a rig sounded poorly.

Oh yeah. There has to be a certain standard of cabling. But past that standard, the law of diminishing returns applies.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Usually, however, it's a bad or poorly soldered connector. I've not skimped and went with bulk retail offerings, such as Acoustic Research or Monster, usually I'll only consider cabling that has been assembled by hand and have locking connectors.

Make your own - that way you're sure there's no poor soldering.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Got the SVS PB13-Ultra sub yesterday. Big improvement over my old 25-31PC, even just on initial testing. Even without proper calibration, the PB13-Ultra is much tighter bass.

I'd imagine so, the difference in drivers is staggering. Also, I'm somewhat critical of cylinder subs for music. To me they tend to sound "boomy", which can be forgiven for movies but less so with other types of audio. That looks like a really good choice.

Yes and no. Usually they're much better built. Better shielding and better construction quality. That said, you don't need to spend $500 for an interconnect. Furthermore, high-end interconnects or speaker wires won't actually sound better. This has been shown time and again on blinded testing. The only times high-end interconnects or speaker wires have been "shown" to sound better in testing is with non-blinded testing. Placebo effect goes a very long way.

I've heard some differences when it comes to active cables with "exotic" circuitry, but I don't believe they always sound "better", just different. I can swap my Transparent Reference XL speaker cables (which retail for >$12K) for plain 12 AWG copper and I can tell a difference, even during blind testing, but it's not massive. Luckily I got those when I bought my Wilsons, because I'd never spend even close to that much for cabling.

Yes and no. Often they're better built, and may have better components. That said, you don't need to spend $10000 for a good amplifier for a home theatre system. Also, audible differences in sound are not always obvious either even if an amplifier does have better components.

Like I said before I've compared a $300 Pioneer next to a $10000 Macintosh amp (using the same speakers - I don't remember the model). Did they sound different? Maybe, maybe not, but whatever the case it wasn't enough difference for me to justify the $9700 price increase. I'd much rather put (part of) the money into the speakers.

I like massive amps, my Krell is a good example, and 1400 watts /ch isn't cheap no matter who builds it. I look at it as peace of mind, I know I'm not going to blow it up, no matter how much material I throw at it. More than likely it'll be operational long after I'm worm food.

In Atlanta I witnessed a horrifying experience at a show. A guy had hooked up an inexpensive "100 WPC" JVC receiver to a pair of B&W Nautilus 802s, I guess he was trying to prove a point regarding high priced electronics. The guy who owned the booth shouldn't have let him do it, so I guess it was mainly his fault.

Anyway, using the same cables, and properly connecting everything, he swapped the attached Classé amp for the JVC and ran a demonstration. He started out with a CD of soft jazz and it sounded fine, so I suppose he got cocky and put in a copy of the 1812 Overture. Now, the room we were in was large, probably 60'x130' with 40' ceilings and to get to a decent volume you needed a fair amount of wattage, especially for full-range speakers. It started out decent enough, so he cranked it up, but as the cannon blasts began the receiver clipped, hard, it was a very loud pop. All eyes went to the JVC receiver and it was silently smoking on the table. The receiver was toast, it went into protection mode never to return. However, far worse was the damage done to the B&Ws, they reconnected them to the demo amp and the left speaker crackled and rattled ominously. I thought the demonstrator and the guy who ran the booth were going to throw up.

Yes and no. I've seen a lot of $20k speakers that are more gimmick than actually being good. However, there is no question that an no-holds-barred 20K speaker setup using proper speaker design principles can easily top a similarly-designed $5000 system.

I agree completely, one of the best values in speakers I've ever listened to are the Swans Diva 6.2 set. They're very impressive and shockingly inexpensive, $3,600 for a 5 piece HT set. Think B&W Nautilus 700 series, but at a fraction of the price.

When it comes to >$20k speakers, however, it's mostly timbre and aesthetics. Almost all high dollar speakers sound good, but it's like picking between Mercedes, Lexus, and BMW. Each manufacturer has it's strengths and it comes down to what the consumer values.

Oh and something I don't understand:

I've seen pictures of $50000 systems that look like that they were set up on the set of the Trailer Park Boys. To be honest, I'd rather have a $30000 system, and then spend the other $20000 on renovations to the room and/or new furniture.

I've been puzzled over this too, a good example are many of the Greek audiophiles in a previous post. How someone can spend $100K and not build a dedicated audio room is beyond me. I guess with enough EQ and treatments you can overcome just about anything, but it'll never be perfect. Last year I decided to bite the bullet and add on a new HT/audio room from scratch and it's been the best money I've ever spent in audio.

Originally Posted by jebjeb 

Quite a bit of experience. I just love the midrange they do. Just went and had a listen to some Martin Logan Vantage's and I think I am going to grab them. Just wonderful. I was surprised how good they were compared to the Summit's.

Just gotta find something to drive them now...

Looks like they're pretty efficient, shouldn't require too much if your room isn't too massive. That Musical Fidelity A5cr should drive them without breaking a sweat. I have quite a few acquaintances who swear by Martin Logan.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Make your own - that way you're sure there's no poor soldering.

I'd considered this, and even built a couple pairs for fun, but I can get the CatCables for such a low price that the difference in cost was almost negligible. Plus, I'm not really big into the soldering thing, but that's just me.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I like massive amps, my Krell is a good example, and 1400 watts /ch isn't cheap no matter who builds it. I look at it as peace of mind, I know I'm not going to blow it up, no matter how much material I throw at it. More than likely it'll be operational long after I'm worm food.

In Atlanta I witnessed a horrifying experience at a show. A guy had hooked up an inexpensive "100 WPC" JVC receiver to a pair of B&W Nautilus 802s, I guess he was trying to prove a point regarding high priced electronics. The guy who owned the booth shouldn't have let him do it, so I guess it was mainly his fault.

Anyway, using the same cables, and properly connecting everything, he swapped the attached Classé amp for the JVC and ran a demonstration. He started out with a CD of soft jazz and it sounded fine, so I suppose he got cocky and put in a copy of the 1812 Overture. Now, the room we were in was large, probably 60'x130' with 40' ceilings and to get to a decent volume you needed a fair amount of wattage, especially for full-range speakers. It started out decent enough, so he cranked it up, but as the cannon blasts began the receiver clipped, hard, it was a very loud pop. All eyes went to the JVC receiver and it was silently smoking on the table. The receiver was toast, it went into protection mode never to return. However, far worse was the damage done to the B&Ws, they reconnected them to the demo amp and the left speaker crackled and rattled ominously. I thought the demonstrator and the guy who ran the booth were going to throw up.

Very good point. The speakers I've tested have always been at moderate volumes in relatively small rooms. I don't like listening to stuff loud, and I've never tried to fill humungous rooms. Furthermore, most of the speakers I've auditioned haven't been great at replicating deep bass... which means they have less power requirements (and fit my intended budget). However, It pays to have high-powered amplifiers if the speakers/room/listening require it.

However, for someone with something similar to my listening habits, often times a high end 1000+ Watt amp isn't really justified, especially if there is any budget constraint.

I've been puzzled over this too, a good example are many of the Greek audiophiles in a previous post. How someone can spend $100K and not build a dedicated audio room is beyond me. I guess with enough EQ and treatments you can overcome just about anything, but it'll never be perfect. Last year I decided to bite the bullet and add on a new HT/audio room from scratch and it's been the best money I've ever spent in audio.

My HT room isn't ideal, but l at least have one now. (The house I bought came with it.) It's nice being able to geek out one room, but keep every other room in the house free of home theatre geekery. That's why I bought that armoire for the living room. It nicely hides the geekery inside.

[jebjeb]

I ended up buying the Vantages. Huzzah!

Now I just have to wait until we exchange contracts on our new house and I can then move them over there and start doing the work to get them setup. They are currently sitting in their enormous boxes (about 6 feet high!) in the living room of the flat we're living in between house moves.

My one year old son is eyeing up those boxes for play time.