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New Lion preview available (Page 2)
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angelmb
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Feb 27, 2011, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
I've got Lion Developer installed. It's sick!!!!!!! Mail kicks butt, the new scrolling, new launchpad, responsiveness, gestures and animations. It's just going to push Apple even further ahead. Reliability aside, best OS X eva.
Seconded… but the lotus flower desktop is MIA.
     
tonewheel
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Feb 27, 2011, 12:59 PM
 
I have Lion Developer installed. Working through the various features, I noticed that the BOUNCE feature in Mail has been removed. Too bad, as I used that from time to time.
     
PhilCat
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Feb 27, 2011, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by tonewheel View Post
I noticed that the BOUNCE feature in Mail has been removed.
Used here as well. A block feature instead?
     
freudling
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Feb 27, 2011, 05:06 PM
 
Spotlight: large preview pops up when mouse over on a search result. And, you can scroll through that preview all without leaving Spotlight.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 27, 2011, 05:14 PM
 
Did they improve the Safari full results window to rival what Tiger had?

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OreoCookie
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Feb 27, 2011, 05:27 PM
 
Apparently, they have switched to the Webkit2 framework which separates the UI process from the rendering process on the framework level. This help preventing UI freezes in case one of the rendering process of a webkit view crashes.
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Spheric Harlot
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Feb 27, 2011, 06:13 PM
 
Hey, despite the impression you get from all the hanging out here, some of us actually have work to do.

(the last betas I actually ran were DP3 and DP4, IIRC.)
     
freudling
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Feb 27, 2011, 06:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Did they improve the Safari full results window to rival what Tiger had?
Not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?

By the way, scrolling is inverted. Swipe downwards on the trackpad to go up, and up to go down. It's iPad style with elasticity.
     
- - e r i k - -
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Feb 28, 2011, 10:33 PM
 
Lion is fantastic. The most radical departure of OS X since Tiger. It is clear that Apple is serious about a touch based future for both their consumer appliances and professional conventional computers. The sliders are just one example of this. If you try Reeder for Mac it implements the same slider. (Yes, the icons cross-fade as you slide and probably should have been implemented better).

However everything in Lion is an improvement. Even the scrolling. After just a few hours use I was forced to get BetterTouchTools so I could invert the axis of my work Snow Leopard install. Everything is so incredibly tactile. Swiping in Safari, swiping through spaces and full-screen apps. The elastic scroll. It's just gorgeous to work with.

The downside is it makes custom UI app feel sluggish and awkward in comparison. Especially egregious is the new faux-lion Twitter for Mac. And not to mention: iTunes.

Everything else is an improvement. Full-screen apps remove all distractions and lets you focus on a single task at the time just as evolution has primed us to do. I can't wait for more apps to implement niceties like resume, versions, full-screen, recent documents in dock etc.

There are just so many improvements I can't even begin to mention them all. Heck, it even has system level support for emoji!

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Feb 28, 2011, 10:35 PM
 
Oh yeah. Spotlight is just about perfect now. Previews everything right from the menu. Smart searching in finder windows (search for pdf and you will have the option to search for filenames or kind).

Finally got it right. Even the Finder is f*cking fixed!

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turtle777
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Feb 28, 2011, 11:14 PM
 
Wow, that really sounds great.

It seems like Apple is playing the "under-promise - over-deliver" game with Lion.

-t
     
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Feb 28, 2011, 11:32 PM
 
No kidding from the sounds of it it's awesome. How stable is it? Do you think it could be used for every day usage?
     
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Feb 28, 2011, 11:40 PM
 
They are definitely under-promising with the preview page. I was a bit miffed with the anaemic sounding banner features, but it is the cohesive whole that makes this a much bigger upgrade than Snow Leopard (and even Leopard) was.

As for stability I am shocked at how stable it is for the very first developer release. I've used pre-release versions dating back to Mac OS 8 and there has never been this kind of stability or relatively bug-free experience from a first release. It feels more like a late beta or early RC. Most of the bugs are cosmetic (an animation here and there that doesn't feel right) or things you'd expect to break with any kind of upgrade (Dropbox, 1Password, Glims, Click2Flash, etc).

Two major exceptions though: Logic Studio and Parallels.

I am tempted to install it on my work computer as going back to Snow Leopard actually feels static and awkward after the fluidity of using Lion on a daily basis.

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Thinine
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Mar 1, 2011, 02:12 AM
 
Yes, I've noticed the fluidity of Lion as well. I don't know if it's an optimization thing or they just reduced the time certain animations are programmed to take, but it sure feels faster. I'd probably use it full time if I didn't have to get work done.
     
Salty
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Mar 1, 2011, 06:31 AM
 
Hmmm dropbox is the only thing I couldn't live without.
     
Big Mac
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Mar 1, 2011, 07:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?
There was a thread on it recently. Tiger had a much more sophisticated Spotlight full search results window than Leopard (or Snow Leopard). The results were organized into categories (much like the Finder now does for normal windows) instead of just being one long list.

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Oh yeah. Spotlight is just about perfect now. Previews everything right from the menu. Smart searching in finder windows (search for pdf and you will have the option to search for filenames or kind).

Finally got it right. Even the Finder is f*cking fixed!
So the Finder was finally freaking fixed? How so?

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Mar 1, 2011, 08:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
So the Finder was finally freaking fixed? How so?
The answer hinges on what you can agree on is actually broken.
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pendragon
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Mar 1, 2011, 08:39 AM
 
According to Apple Insider ( AppleInsider | Inside Mac OS X 10.7 Lion: Missing Front Row, Rosetta and Java runtime ), Rosetta will no longer be supported. Ergo, apps like Quicken 2007 and Addressix are doomed.

Will someone please verify or refute the demise of Rosetta?
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Big Mac
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Mar 1, 2011, 08:43 AM
 
Rosetta's demise has been widely reported. I didn't think they'd completely strip it so soon and that it would remain an optional install, but I was wrong.

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Mar 1, 2011, 09:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
So the Finder was finally freaking fixed? How so?
Fixed in the sense of a pet?

Rosetta is gone, and unless there is way more crying about it, it's not coming back. Doesn't surprise me in the slightest, although I was hoping for better.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
slugslugslug
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Mar 1, 2011, 01:25 PM
 
I don’t think I use Rosetta anywhere, but even to me it seems a bit early to can it.

I’m fairly surprised there isn’t more excitement about Resume. I’m often putting off Software Update updates and post-install restarts because I know I’ll get interrupted by a bunch of apps saying, “Wait, don’t quit me yet. What should I do with this thing?” And then after I restart I have to try and remember what I had open besides my Login Items (which gets harder to remember the more times you have to reattempt to log out). It’ll be great when most apps support the sort of ongoing state-saving that will make a restart feel pretty much like a sleep-wake cycle.
     
slugslugslug
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Mar 1, 2011, 01:29 PM
 
(nevermind, double post)
     
Big Mac
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Mar 1, 2011, 02:13 PM
 
How does Resume work interface wise? I hope it's an option and not a mandatory aspect of restarting.

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besson3c
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Mar 1, 2011, 03:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Rosetta's demise has been widely reported. I didn't think they'd completely strip it so soon and that it would remain an optional install, but I was wrong.

I bet the optional install was just for some pieces that were consuming space, but there has to be deep hooks and integration of Rosetta throughout the OS. This is not at all a trivial piece! Stripping out Rosetta seems on par with their strategy of making OS X more iOS-like, which I hope means lean and mean.
     
imitchellg5
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Mar 1, 2011, 03:54 PM
 
Has anyone noticed the iOS-like autocorrect in TextEdit?
     
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Mar 1, 2011, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I bet the optional install was just for some pieces that were consuming space, but there has to be deep hooks and integration of Rosetta throughout the OS. This is not at all a trivial piece! Stripping out Rosetta seems on par with their strategy of making OS X more iOS-like, which I hope means lean and mean.
I'm hoping Rosetta is going because they're implementing HFS3 and are taking the chance to kick out all the weird behavior from older versions, but really, I think they're doing it to cut down the testing target.

In related news: how how well does Parallels and VMware work with virtualizing 10.6?
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Mar 1, 2011, 05:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
I'm hoping Rosetta is going because they're implementing HFS3 and are taking the chance to kick out all the weird behavior from older versions, but really, I think they're doing it to cut down the testing target.

In related news: how how well does Parallels and VMware work with virtualizing 10.6?
I can't speak for VMware, but Parallels does a pretty good job with 10.6 Server. It won't let you use the Client version. Anyone who needs Rosetta can use that if they want to upgrade to Lion and still run the odd PPC app. The only problem with Server is that Apple artificially restricts some of the iLife apps from running on it (or at least they used to). But that shouldn't be an issue, since if you're going to use iLife, why not use it in 10.7?
     
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Mar 1, 2011, 07:10 PM
 
Right, the license thing about the server version. Well, I don't happen to own one, so that isn't good. Hm.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Mar 1, 2011, 07:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
I can't speak for VMware, but Parallels does a pretty good job with 10.6 Server. It won't let you use the Client version. Anyone who needs Rosetta can use that if they want to upgrade to Lion and still run the odd PPC app. The only problem with Server is that Apple artificially restricts some of the iLife apps from running on it (or at least they used to). But that shouldn't be an issue, since if you're going to use iLife, why not use it in 10.7?

Apple definitely needs a better virtualization strategy.
     
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Mar 1, 2011, 10:00 PM
 
Does virtualization of Server now go away because it's getting merged with Client?

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Mar 1, 2011, 11:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
The only problem with Server is that Apple artificially restricts some of the iLife apps from running on it (or at least they used to).
I'm on 10.6 server and iLife works fine. Same with 10.5 server.
     
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Mar 1, 2011, 11:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Does virtualization of Server now go away because it's getting merged with Client?

I was wondering the same thing. Apple must have something up their sleeve, because you can virtualize OS X Client in Virtualbox, so I imagine that somehow there are ways to virtualize it legally. To be honest, I'm unclear as to what the status is of all of this both legally and technologically, but I'm expecting that with this merge there will be some clarity provided, because I suspect that Apple has at least a few customers virtualizing OS X Server that would be a little put off if that was taken away from them.
     
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Mar 2, 2011, 12:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
because you can virtualize OS X Client in Virtualbox
Not anymore.

The newer versions of Virtualbox limit it to server, too.

Important notice regarding Mac OS X as Guest (View topic) • virtualbox.org
     
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Mar 2, 2011, 01:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Fixed in the sense of a pet?

Rosetta is gone, and unless there is way more crying about it, it's not coming back. Doesn't surprise me in the slightest, although I was hoping for better.
I am crying! Apple, listen... I have just a few things I need to run, and I think many folks have, that need Rosetta. Lean and mean is great, but Rosetta is already coded, and does not need to link with any of Lion's new stuff. Sure it would take some work, but it would make millions happy, I think.

I suppose I should go get the Magic Trackpad, I have a desktop
     
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Mar 2, 2011, 12:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by jmiddel View Post
I am crying! Apple, listen... I have just a few things I need to run, and I think many folks have, that need Rosetta. Lean and mean is great, but Rosetta is already coded, and does not need to link with any of Lion's new stuff. Sure it would take some work, but it would make millions happy, I think.
I really doubt that there will be millions affected by the loss of Rosetta from 10.7.
     
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Mar 2, 2011, 02:54 PM
 
Removing Rosetta is a complete d!ck move by Apple.
     
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Mar 2, 2011, 03:12 PM
 
That's uncalled for.
     
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Mar 2, 2011, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Removing Rosetta is a complete d!ck move by Apple.
You're entitled to your opinion, but the vast majority of people buying Macs (and I'm not talking about the people on Geek Forums such as these and other Mac-centric websites) probably won't even notice or care.

The current "outcry" over the removal of Rosetta is exactly the same as the outcry over removal of Classic from OS 10.5 and discontinuation of Classic as a standalone bootable operating system. That this is happening should come as no surprise since this is always how Apple has worked. And 6 months later, you never hear of the issue again.

Apple has always been aggressive about discontinuing support for older technologies.
     
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Mar 2, 2011, 11:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
Apple has always been aggressive about discontinuing support for older technologies.
No they haven't. Before the Intel switch, almost all old software had worked going all the way back to 1984. There was a time when we used to brag about this.

Anyway, if you think there aren't a huge number of people still using Office 2004 or Quicken 2007, then you may be in for a surprise.

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imitchellg5
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Mar 2, 2011, 11:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Removing Rosetta is a complete d!ck move by Apple.
I haven't installed it on either my iMac or MacBook Pro. After 6 years of Intel powered Macs, if your application doesn't support it, then I don't think it's a problem that falls into Apple's lap. In the case of Office 2004, it may be time to move beyond 7 year old applications.
     
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Mar 2, 2011, 11:32 PM
 
Perhaps Apple should create some sort of list of popular apps that won't work under Lion to prevent angry customers.
     
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Mar 2, 2011, 11:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Perhaps Apple should create some sort of list of popular apps that won't work under Lion to prevent angry customers.
See, the problem is it was so easy to make universal binaries, that that list is going to be mostly old versions of apps or discontinued/legacy apps. And in both of those cases, you either A.) don't upgrade or B.) have a dedicated computer for legacy apps.

It's really not a big issue. My only complaint would be Apple's axe-happy ways the past decade or so.
     
besson3c
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Mar 2, 2011, 11:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Brien View Post
See, the problem is it was so easy to make universal binaries, that that list is going to be mostly old versions of apps or discontinued/legacy apps. And in both of those cases, you either A.) don't upgrade or B.) have a dedicated computer for legacy apps.

It's really not a big issue. My only complaint would be Apple's axe-happy ways the past decade or so.

Oh, I don't think that Apple should be criticized for yanking Rosetta. Those waiting for free upgrades to apps to port to Intel probably are never going to get them, and there are some apps that are just ready to be discontinued anyway.

However, for those Quicken 2007 users and the like, a simple list of PPC apps, a refund policy, or something to help limit the number of people that upgrade without realizing that they will be left unsupported would probably be a good idea just as a courtesy sort of thing.
     
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Mar 3, 2011, 12:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
No they haven't. Before the Intel switch, almost all old software had worked going all the way back to 1984. There was a time when we used to brag about this.
Ok, I'll give you that. Perhaps it's more accurate to say Apple over the past seven years or so.

Anyway, if you think there aren't a huge number of people still using Office 2004 or Quicken 2007, then you may be in for a surprise.
I didn't say there aren't a huge number of people still using Office 2004 or Quicken 2007. But I also don't think that the absence of Rosetta in 10.7 is going to have a significant impact on sales of either 10.7 or new Macs, either.

I do think that expressing displeasure with the decision in childish ways is stupid, though. The best example is on Macintouch. Lots of people saying things along the lines of "I'm not going to buy 10.7 if Rosetta is not included nor will I buy any new Macs..." and "This is going to be Apple's Vista." Oh, please. That's not doing to do ANYTHING to convince Apple to reconsider the decision.

Those people who still rely on the ability to run PPC Macs have several options. 1) Don't upgrade to 10.7. 2) Upgrade to 10.7, but install 10.6 on a separate partition for those few PPC apps they need. 3) Maintain an older machine with an earlier installation of 10.6. 4) Buy Parallels or VMware (or use Virtualbox) and a copy of OS X Server 10.5 or 10.6 from eBay and virtualize it under 10.7. (There are hacks to circumvent those programs' restrictions and run the non-server versions in a VM but they aren't perfect). Just don't go whining about it.

The other thing to remember is that Rosetta is not an Apple technology. They licensed it from Transitive. Perhaps the original license is up? Still, it's more than "just moving it from 10.6 to 10.7" as some people seem to think. For whatever reasons Apple apparently doesn't think it's worth spending the time and effort to get Rosetta working under 10.7. I'm not surprised that Apple is removing Rosetta from 10.7. The writing's been on the wall (in my opinion) ever since it was made optional in 10.6.

Do I agree with the decision? No. But I can understand where Apple is coming from. I didn't agree with the decision to remove Classic from the PPC version of 10.5, either, but I understood why they would do it, too.
     
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Mar 3, 2011, 12:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Brien View Post
See, the problem is it was so easy to make universal binaries, that that list is going to be mostly old versions of apps or discontinued/legacy apps.
Um, no. If it was so easy to make universal binaries we would have seen Intel native versions of things like Microsoft Office and Photoshop a LOT sooner than they took to release them. But you're right about the list being mostly old versions and discontinued/legacy/abandoned apps.
     
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Mar 3, 2011, 08:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
No they haven't. Before the Intel switch, almost all old software had worked going all the way back to 1984. There was a time when we used to brag about this.
Oh I remember, good times, it was when Apple still wanted the Mac to be insanely great, instead of just good enough. It was a platform, now it is an appliance. Disposable.

If your Mac isn't working for you, get a new one. If your software isn't working for you, get new software. If that isn't working for you, perhaps you should just move to the dying technology of Windows. [/fanboi]

There was a time we used to brag about the Mac consistent UI as well.
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Mar 3, 2011, 09:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
In the case of Office 2004, it may be time to move beyond 7 year old applications.
So buying a $139 OS update will require also require buying a $200+ Office upgrade, even though newer versions of Office aren't worth the money to most people? But I'm sure Adobe and Microsoft are gleefully rubbing their hands together as we speak.

Then there's the stuff you can't upgrade. Lots of people keep older games on their machines, too. Those games will suddenly die forever. Looking on my system, there's only one PowerPC game there, Oni, which I've considered playing again. But in the past, I wasn't a big gamer. I'm sure lots of greybeards will be bitter about losing games forever in the name of saving Apple a few pennies.

I think it's simply insane that Apple will put more effort into running Windows on your Mac than keeping actual Mac software running. That's why I called this a pointless d!ck move.
     
turtle777
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Mar 3, 2011, 09:47 AM
 
Here's a novel thought: What if Apple provided virtualization for older OS X 10.6 in the way VMWare and Parallels provide Windows ?
Then you could run all your old software, albeit, a bit more disruptive than Rosetta.

-t
     
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Mar 3, 2011, 09:48 AM
 
10.6 Server works in Parallels…?
     
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Mar 3, 2011, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
10.6 Server works in Parallels…?
Yes, it does.
     
 
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