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Wiskedjak · Mar 27, 2007, 01:29 PM

Unproduced Galactica 1980 story regarding Starbuck, his apparent death, his "evolution to a higher plane of existence", and a third party influencing events.
The Wheel Of Fire

reader50 · Mar 27, 2007, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by xi_hyperon

...
On an aside, I hope the podcast isn't late this week. I want insight.

Ron Moore is supposed to record the podcast sometime today, so we hope to get it tomorrow. I'm withholding comment too until after listening to the Podcast.

Eug · Mar 27, 2007, 02:01 PM

TV Week: RD Moore thinks of BSG in SD, not HD

TVWeek: There's a real difference watching "BSG" on Sci Fi and when it airs on UHD months later in HD and 5.1 Surround Sound. Has this lag time been frustrating that viewers aren't watching the original airings the way it was shot?

Mr. Moore: I don't see it that way. We don't cut it in HD. When I sit in the Avid room, it's not in HD. As a practical day-to-day matter, there's no reason for me to be watching it in HD. ... When it comes out on UHD months later, I'm usually sort of surprised. "It's gorgeous! Look at that, you can see the reflection on the glass and everything." My head isn't geared toward HD at all.

analogue SPRINKLES · Mar 27, 2007, 02:05 PM

So what song exactly was that the 4 were hearing and when was it recorded originally?

Visnaut · Mar 27, 2007, 02:11 PM

"All Along the Watchtower" by Bob Dylan

One thing that bugged me was that even though the lyrics were from that song, the song they hear playing in their head and the covered version at the end don't sound at all like the original melody. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like the same lyrics sung to a rather different song. Especially with the sitar.

If you watch the episode, you can catch bits of the lyrics in the final four's dialogue. Like when Tigh is in Adama's quarters, and Adama leaves for the courtroom, Tight whispers "There must be some way out of here". And the ending sequence of course with each character saying a line of the song before they meet up.

I really wonder what the connection means.

Stogieman · 02:25 PM

The song is called "All Along the Watchtower" by Bob Dylan. The version we heard in the last episode was performed by a band called Bt4. At least that's what it said in the credits. I can't seem to find them in the itunes store.

scottiB · Mar 27, 2007, 02:22 PM

All about "AAtW" by Bear McCreary - BSG composer:

Blog

analogue SPRINKLES · Mar 27, 2007, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by bstone

I really wonder what the connection means.

I am trying to figure out how, when, why they got this song in their head. If the song is 40 years old they could be 40 light-years away from earth and this is how long it takes to travel to their current location.

Or, this song was programmed into their head at birth meaning it happened at least 40 years ago by our calendar.

Either way it somewhat proves when they find earth it will have a similar history and perhaps even the same timeline as we are in right now. So when they do get here it is 2008ish.

Then again:
"I happened to catch Ron Moore in the hallway at Universal and, in a brief conversation, got everything I needed to know. I learned that the idea was not that Bob Dylan necessarily exists in the characters' universe, but that an artist on one of the colonies may have recorded a song with the exact same melody and lyrics."

andi*pandi · Mar 27, 2007, 02:55 PM

well then that's a copout.

I think they were trying to obscure the song, I thought for a second from the tune it was Satisfaction slowed down a ton. They wanted us to wonder like the characters were supposed to be doing.

OreoCookie · Mar 27, 2007, 03:49 PM

There are all kinds of versions of this song …

Peter · Mar 27, 2007, 03:51 PM

amazing episode!

SirCastor · Mar 27, 2007, 03:54 PM

FINALLY... iTunes got their act together yesterday afternoon, and between work and school I was able to watch it and catch up with the rest of you.

Having already read most of the comments here, I wasn't terribly surprised by much. The episode definitely had a lot of jumping points for next season, I'm a little irritated that Season 4 won't begin for another 9-10 months now. A couple of thoughts:

* I'd like to see Baltar's lawyer again. He was a really interesting character. His leaving the cane seemed important. Maybe he's the fifth Cylon

* I don't care where Kara got her dang Viper. I don't think that she's the 5th Cylon. I think she's something else. Maybe the lead singer in a bad cover band.

* I really really really hope that they don't pull crap like arriving at earth and it's present day 2007/2008.

* Now that we know who 4 of the remaining 5 cylons are, I want to see further programming kick in. Not "shoot your CO in the gut" programming, but as they get closer to Earth, a further understanding of their purpose, etc..

* We need to see more Zarek, he's an under-utilized character this season.

* Speaking of Zarek, when he made that executive order authorizing the execution of collaborators, Roslin was all pro-trial then. Now when Baltar's on trial, she would just as soon have the thing rigged.

* Speaking of Roslin, what happened to her right before the power outage?

Eug · Mar 27, 2007, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by SirCastor

* I really really really hope that they don't pull crap like arriving at earth and it's present day 2007/2008.

Moore has already gone on record to say they're bringing back the flying motorcycles.

* Speaking of Roslin, what happened to her right before the power outage?

She was suffering a brownout, just like the ship had a blackout moments later. It took a split second for her backup power to kick in.

goMac · Mar 27, 2007, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Moore has already gone on record to say they're bringing back the flying motorcycles.

She was suffering a brownout, just like the ship had a blackout moments later. It took a split second for her backup power to kick in.

Lol. I'm assuming both these comments are wrapped in invisible sarcasm tags.

If they brought back anything from Galactica 1980 I might just stab myself.

goMac · Mar 27, 2007, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by SirCastor

* I'd like to see Baltar's lawyer again. He was a really interesting character. His leaving the cane seemed important. Maybe he's the fifth Cylon

We talked about this at work. The current theory is that it could have been Grandfather Adama's cane. He remarked that he liked taking objects from people to know them better. It could have been he wanted to feel closer to Grandfather Adama for the trial.

analogue SPRINKLES · Mar 27, 2007, 04:07 PM

[QUOTE=bstone;3337725]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Well done. All it needs is an FTL drive (whatever that might look like).

Eug · Mar 27, 2007, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Lol. I'm assuming both these comments are wrapped in invisible sarcasm tags.

If they brought back anything from Galactica 1980 I might just stab myself.

Heh. Technically, he did actually say they are dusting off those flying motorcycles though.

Originally Posted by goMac

We talked about this at work. The current theory is that it could have been Grandfather Adama's cane. He remarked that he liked taking objects from people to know them better. It could have been he wanted to feel closer to Grandfather Adama for the trial.

I interpreted this to mean (possibly) that he was playing the sympathy card. He was hurt, but not as badly as we were led to believe. ie. Honesty is not always the best policy. That ties in with the conversation he was having with Lee.

62 reasons

scottiB · Mar 27, 2007, 04:10 PM

I believe the cane was a carryover from the injuries in the attempt on his life. He used it gain sympathy from the tribunal (and perhaps Lee). Once he didn't need it, he left it behind.

Eug beat me to it

analogue SPRINKLES · Mar 27, 2007, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

We talked about this at work. The current theory is that it could have been Grandfather Adama's cane. He remarked that he liked taking objects from people to know them better. It could have been he wanted to feel closer to Grandfather Adama for the trial.

Huh? I thought the whole point of it was to show how far he would go to win by faking a limp and gaining sympathy from the tribunal.

goMac · Mar 27, 2007, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by scottiB

I believe the cane was a carryover from the injuries in the attempt on his life. He used it gain sympathy from the tribunal (and perhaps Lee). Once he didn't need it, he left it behind.

Eug beat me to it

Oh you're right. Somehow I thought he had always had the cane.

Wiskedjak · Mar 27, 2007, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

I am trying to figure out how, when, why they got this song in their head. If the song is 40 years old they could be 40 light-years away from earth and this is how long it takes to travel to their current location.

Except, of course, in our reality, the Bt4 version of "All Along the Watchtower" isn't 40 years old. In which case, they could be only a few days from Earth, events could be taking in the future and they could be anywhere between a few days and hundreds of years from Earth, or they could be in an alternate reality from ours where Bob Dylan actually sounds good.

analogue SPRINKLES · Mar 27, 2007, 06:26 PM

To me it is becoming clear that there is some 3rd party running the show that we don't know the identity of yet. Well "God" but who or what that is nobody knows.

I think whoever this is will probably be the same person who controls head six, head baltar and Head leoben. The same person most likely is the one who put the music in the final 4's heads also.

It is almost like there are "Evil Cylons" meant to chaise humans into getting humans to earth, "The Cylon hating final five" who protect humanity down to their core and despise regular Cylons, and the "Head" characters that play referee. There are also "Chosen ones" like Starbuck and Baltar who have an important role. Starbuck to help humans find their way and Baltar to start the whole process and play protector to the Hybrids while unintentionally also coming off as the bad guy.

Whatever the master plan is it seems they all need each team doing their part or things would have ended long ago.

Gankdawg · Mar 27, 2007, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

To me it is becoming clear that there is some 3rd party running the show that we don't know the identity of yet. Well "God" but who or what that is nobody knows.

Probaby Q.

xi_hyperon · Mar 27, 2007, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Gankdawg

Probaby Q.

"It's time to put an end to your trek through the stars"

jokell82 · Mar 27, 2007, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

no one likes my "it was the bogie Starbuck saw that exploded, not Starbuck" theory?

No, because you can clearly see that it was Starbuck's ship. Watch the episode again.

goMac · Mar 27, 2007, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

No, because you can clearly see that it was Starbuck's ship. Watch the episode again.

Why are people so insistent upon this when Battlestar Galactica is a show where you can never trust your eyes?

Just because you saw Starbuck blow up doesn't mean it happened. Just because you can see Starbuck flying a Viper doesn't mean she is real.

jokell82 · Mar 27, 2007, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Why are people so insistent upon this when Battlestar Galactica is a show where you can never trust your eyes?

Just because you saw Starbuck blow up doesn't mean it happened. Just because you can see Starbuck flying a Viper doesn't mean she is real.

Because unlike other instances in the show where you can't trust your eyes, there is NO evidence that what we saw was anything more than what we really saw. Now, whether or not something happened to Starbuck before/during/after the explosion is another issue altogether. But there is no reason to believe it wasn't Starbuck's ship that blew up.

goMac · Mar 27, 2007, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Because unlike other instances in the show where you can't trust your eyes, there is NO evidence that what we saw was anything more than what we really saw.

Sure there is. Starbuck isn't blown up. There is plenty of reason to re-examine that scene.

Helmling · Mar 27, 2007, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Why are people so insistent upon this when Battlestar Galactica is a show where you can never trust your eyes?

Just because you saw Starbuck blow up doesn't mean it happened. Just because you can see Starbuck flying a Viper doesn't mean she is real.

It's your assumptions you can't trust on BSG.

That Viper really blew up. I did like he said and watched the sequence on YouTube. He's right, that Viper and Kara inside is toast.

This makes me more certain of my theory (not mine alone) that Kara's in Lee's head. She's essentially Lee's 6 now.

scottiB · 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

well then that's a copout.

I think they were trying to obscure the song, I thought for a second from the tune it was Satisfaction slowed down a ton. They wanted us to wonder like the characters were supposed to be doing.

I was spoiled to all get out for the finale, and when Tyrol told Anders that the song was like something from childhood, I imagined "AAtW" would be lyrics to a nursery rhyme or children's song that was carried through the centuries, but no one knew the origin (like Ring-Around-a-Rosie was thought to have been about the Black Plague--though that's not true). We'll see how it plays out.

I really disliked the version in the episode at first viewing, but it's grown on me -- except for the singing. The vocalist is Bear McCreary's brother, and he carries out the last consonant of a phrase way too long ("There's too much confusionnnnnnnnnn....").

The tune needs Dio.

Don Pickett · Mar 27, 2007, 11:04 PM

Well that was a pleasant surprise: the courtroom stuff was dumb, but the cylon revelation was a nice touch. I'm looking forward to the new season.

Helmling · Mar 27, 2007, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Sure there is. Starbuck isn't blown up. There is plenty of reason to re-examine that scene.

Like what exactly?

I just watched it. Flame consumes the nose of the Viper. We see the explosion and there is at least one really big piece of debris flies out of the area of the engine.

Methinks the Viper is atomized. Kara's an ascended being or something--her body was smooshed.

olePigeon · Mar 27, 2007, 11:40 PM

I hope Badger... err, I mean Cain makes a reappearance.

goMac · Mar 27, 2007, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Helmling

Like what exactly?

I just watched it. Flame consumes the nose of the Viper. We see the explosion and there is at least one really big piece of debris flies out of the area of the engine.

Methinks the Viper is atomized. Kara's an ascended being or something--her body was smooshed.

She could be, but it's still silly to trust that scene when we have reason to doubt it.

Chuckit · Mar 28, 2007, 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Sure there is. Starbuck isn't blown up. There is plenty of reason to re-examine that scene.

If we don't believe anything we see on the show, conjecture is pointless — we have nothing on which to base it. I find it more simple to believe that both things are true: Kara's raptor blew up and Kara somehow managed to come back in some form after doing so. (After all, Not-Leoben said she was going to the place between life and death, didn't he?)

Helmling · Mar 28, 2007, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

If we don't believe anything we see on the show, conjecture is pointless — we have nothing on which to base it. I find it more simple to believe that both things are true: Kara's raptor blew up and Kara somehow managed to come back in some form after doing so. (After all, Not-Leoben said she was going to the place between life and death, didn't he?)

Your point is well taken. Given those remarks and the allusion to a special destiny, I really think it's clear that Kara did not physically escape the Viper explosion so much as spiritually escape it. As I noted above--way above--it's virtually impossible that they would be able to sustain the narrative arc of searching for Earth and the mystery of what Earth is with Kara coming back on board bodily as part of the crew after having been there. She is not what she used to be. My best guess is that she will be a manifestation that only Lee can see. An anti-6 in an anti-Baltar.

Helmling · Mar 28, 2007, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

She could be, but it's still silly to trust that scene when we have reason to doubt it.

Again: that "reason" would be what exactly?

Naaaaak · Mar 28, 2007, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by SirCastor

* I'd like to see Baltar's lawyer again. He was a really interesting character. His leaving the cane seemed important. Maybe he's the fifth Cylon

I think he is one of the most interesting characters of the series. 5th cylon, I doubt, however.

Originally Posted by SirCastor

* I really really really hope that they don't pull crap like arriving at earth and it's present day 2007/2008.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by SirCastor

* Speaking of Zarek, when he made that executive order authorizing the execution of collaborators, Roslin was all pro-trial then. Now when Baltar's on trial, she would just as soon have the thing rigged.

Good catch. Seems like this season missed some important continuity details.

Helmling · Mar 28, 2007, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

I hope Badger... err, I mean Cain makes a reappearance.

Yeah, Firefly!

Wiskedjak · Mar 28, 2007, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by SirCastor

* Now that we know who 4 of the remaining 5 cylons are, I want to see further programming kick in. Not "shoot your CO in the gut" programming, but as they get closer to Earth, a further understanding of their purpose, etc..

My guess is that they won't have "programming" and that they'll spend most of the next season trying to figure out what their purpose is.

Eug · Mar 28, 2007, 08:28 AM

Out of the 4 new cylons, none were willing to tell Admiral Adama that they were.

Originally Posted by Helmling

My best guess is that she will be a manifestation that only Lee can see. An anti-6 in an anti-Baltar.

I sure hope not.

analogue SPRINKLES · Mar 28, 2007, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

Out of the 4 new cylons, none were willing to tell Admiral Adama that they were.

Probably because if they told them in the middle of a massive cylon attack they'd be doing a bellflop out the nearest airlock in no time flat.

xi_hyperon · Mar 28, 2007, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Probably because if they told them in the middle of a massive cylon attack they'd be doing a bellflop out the nearest airlock in no time flat.

I think if Tigh had confessed, Adama would not have believed him anyway. He probably would have just concluded his friend had finally lost what few marbles he still had.

Eug · Mar 28, 2007, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Probably because if they told them in the middle of a massive cylon attack they'd be doing a bellflop out the nearest airlock in no time flat.

Nah. Adama would just stick them in the brig.

Especially Tigh. Tigh has frakked up seriously a few times (imposing martial law, etc, and then there's also the drunkeness), but he has never done anything serious against Adama. Coming forward and admitting this before anything happened would mean a lot to Adama methinks. Adama already realizes that not all Cylons are mortal enemies.

Plus, the airlock thing is Roslin's schtick.

Originally Posted by xi_hyperon

I think if Tigh had confessed, Adama would not have believed him anyway. He probably would have just concluded his friend had finally lost what few marbles he still had.

That's why I think they should have gone as a group, and explained what happened.

Anyways, I suspect one big reason they didn't say anything because it's uninteresting to have all your main characters stuck in jail all the time.

andi*pandi · Mar 28, 2007, 10:39 AM

there's also the possibility they're wrong, isn't there? There could be other reasons for hearing music--cylons put chips in their heads, they've been marked by the gods, etc. If I were them I'd be cautious about this.

olePigeon · Mar 28, 2007, 10:48 AM

Isn't Chief and Cally's kid a hybrid, then? So why is Hera still so important?

Makes me question if they're really Cylons. They passed Baltar's Cylon test. I'm sure the Doc and Baltar can test them again.

Helmling · Mar 28, 2007, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

there's also the possibility they're wrong, isn't there? There could be other reasons for hearing music--cylons put chips in their heads, they've been marked by the gods, etc. If I were them I'd be cautious about this.

Woah, that just reminded me. It was Tyral (spelling?) who found the temple with the Eye of Jupiter. What's really going on? How can the Cylons be so intimately linked to the quest for Earth?

All this has happened before...I'll go ahead and voice the lingering fear that there really isn't a plan and that Moore cannot possibly cash all the checks he's written with this show over the last three years. It's a possibility, but this show has impressed and surprised and challenged me so consistently that I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and ride along until the bitter end.

Eug · Mar 28, 2007, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Isn't Chief and Cally's kid a hybrid, then? So why is Hera still so important?

Makes me question if they're really Cylons. They passed Baltar's Cylon test. I'm sure the Doc and Baltar can test them again.

Who did Baltar test anyway?

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

there's also the possibility they're wrong, isn't there? There could be other reasons for hearing music--cylons put chips in their heads, they've been marked by the gods, etc. If I were them I'd be cautious about this.

Yet, instead of being cautious, they are being reckless.

It's clear to them that they are either Cylons or else something else very, very weird is going on, but they have chosen to ignore it.

At least Baltar got himself a CT scan.

andi*pandi · Mar 28, 2007, 11:35 AM

the only one I remember baltar testing was Boomer. And it came out positive but he lied to her.

analogue SPRINKLES · Mar 28, 2007, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

Nah. Adama would just stick them in the brig.

Especially Tigh. Tigh has frakked up seriously a few times (imposing martial law, etc, and then there's also the drunkeness), but he has never done anything serious against Adama. Coming forward and admitting this before anything happened would mean a lot to Adama methinks. Adama already realizes that not all Cylons are mortal enemies.

Plus, the airlock thing is Roslin's schtick.

That's why I think they should have gone as a group, and explained what happened.

You're right on all counts but the timing wasn't right. Picture it, the ENTIRE fleet just lost power and 4 baseships appear. If you were Tigh and you just figured out you were a Cylon along with the deck cheif you really think that would be the best time to tell your 40 year friend and commanding officer that you are the enemy... especially with the whole crew and Roslyn standing there?

I think they all want to live through the next 20 minutes till they jump, regroup with the other members and talk about how they are going to deal with this dilemma and not get themselves killed or cause panic. That is exactly what I would do.

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

there's also the possibility they're wrong, isn't there? There could be other reasons for hearing music--cylons put chips in their heads, they've been marked by the gods, etc. If I were them I'd be cautious about this.

Yup. Who knows they could be HYBRIDS from the last time this went down. "All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again".

They think the music is from their childhood but the question remains on why do they all hear it at this point in time? There must be something happening to make things switch into gear.

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Isn't Chief and Cally's kid a hybrid, then? So why is Hera still so important?

Makes me question if they're really Cylons. They passed Baltar's Cylon test. I'm sure the Doc and Baltar can test them again.

Yes his kid is a Cylon hybrid but remember these final 4 are not the run in the mill skinjobs that can't get sick, project and resurrect when they die. They seem totally human in every way.

The reason Hera is so important is because not even the other Cylons know who the final 5 are so they don't know the chiefs baby is a hybrid. Also his child is not a pure Cylon/Human hybrid but a Final Five Cylon/Human which may not be as important for some reason even if they know.

The Cylons also refer to Hera as "The FIRST human/Cylon child" or "The first of Gods new generation" as if #1 makes it more important somehow.