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hyteckit · Jan 15, 2008, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Unless you actually sit down and witness it, then the bragging stops and the jaw-dropping begins.

Um.. don't have the space and money for a 7.1 channel, $30k speaker system.

I'm happy with the DTS-ES 6.1 channel.

Shaddim · Jan 15, 2008, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

For seriously.

Oh, I'm sure it looks just splendid on a 20-30ish" HD set, while using it's built-in speakers, but, like I said before, that's not real HT, is it?

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

I know a lot of people with 50"+ HD sets, and they'll be able to tell too.

I know one person with a >50" set, and I don't exactly hang with the "Walmart crowd". It's not a huge deal because he has a Sony home theater system upconverting his AppleTV to 1080p..

Originally Posted by Shaddim

and it still doesn't have HQ 7.1 audio, which will kill it for all but the "McDonald's and Wal-Mart" type crowd.

Yeah. I don't actually know anyone with 7.1... Maybe the people I know with a movie theater in their basement and a multi-thousand DVD changer do, but they seem perfectly fine with DVD's on their 1080p projector...

Originally Posted by Shaddim

I'm sure your streaming HD will be "fine" on a small display with a pair of speakers, but that's not HT, is it?

I've done CSI over XBox Live on my friend's (who incidentally is the same only person I know with a >50" set) 57" 1080p Plasma, and it looked great and sounded wonderful on his 5.1. And he definitely is your above-average consumer.

Shaddim · Jan 15, 2008, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Um.. don't have the space and money for a 7.1 channel, $30k speaker system.

I'm happy with the DTS-ES 6.1 channel.

It's not that expensive, for a few grand you can enjoy full 7.1 and even have it professionally installed to take advantage of it. Won't take up more room than your present setup either. I'm just a hobbyist, and spend more than I should.

However, you don't even get DTS-ES 6.1 with the streaming option, and won't for a very long time.

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

It's not that expensive, for a few grand...

: chokes on his sandwich :

Your average consumer won't spend more than $2000 for a TV... You're saying they'll spend $2000 or more on a sound system?

Heck. I don't have 5.1, not because I can't afford it... but because I don't have room for it, and I don't have my own house and I can't really be annoying the neighbors.

Originally Posted by Shaddim

However, you don't even get DTS-ES 6.1 with the streaming option, and won't for a very long time.

I'm sure your average consumer will be all choked up when they find that out...

Shaddim · Jan 15, 2008, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

I know one person with a >50" set, and I don't exactly hang with the "Walmart crowd". It's not a huge deal because he has a Sony home theater system upconverting his AppleTV to 1080p..

That's really odd, and I doubt it's the norm. 50"+ sets, now that they're reaching the $1000 mark, are getting very common.

Yeah. I don't actually know anyone with 7.1... Maybe the people I know with a movie theater in their basement and a multi-thousand DVD changer do, but they seem perfectly fine with DVD's on their 1080p projector...

7.1 is moving into the new standard, especially since 7.1 receivers are now below $500. Also, since they have a decent setup, if your friends aren't jumping into HD disc content they're wasting their HD dollars.

I've done CSI over XBox Live on my friend's (who incidentally is the same only person I know with a >50" set) 57" 1080p Plasma, and it looked great and sounded wonderful on his 5.1. And he definitely is your above-average consumer.

Compared to HD disc setups, it wouldn't look or sound "wonderful". However, that's a TV show. Have them play the same movie on Xbox Live and BD (or even HD-DVD), then see how it goes.

Shaddim · Jan 15, 2008, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

: chokes on his sandwich :

Your average consumer won't spend more than $2000 for a TV... You're saying they'll spend $2000 or more on a sound system?

Heck. I don't have 5.1, not because I can't afford it... but because I don't have room for it, and I don't have my own house and I can't really be annoying the neighbors.

I'm sure your average consumer will be all choked up when they find that out...

Choke on this, they should. Your option is clearly inferior to all except the people who are watching on tiny displays and 2 speakers.

That's not HT, is it?

People who watch movies on their computer monitors w/o surround setups aren't who HD disc systems are aimed at. I'm sure you guys will be just fine with your streaming stuff.

Edit: I can go down to Best Buy or Circuit City and watch average consumers wheeling out big TVs and HT systems all day, it's a constant stream. Surely all those people aren't part of some "elite HT club". Plus, they have some type of HD disc player in the cart too.

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

That's really odd, and I doubt it's the norm. 50"+ sets, now that they're reaching the $1000 mark, are getting very common.

Um no. 40" is just starting to get to the $1000 mark. If you're lucky, you might be able to pick up a low quality HD monitor at 46" for $1000.

Originally Posted by Shaddim

7.1 is moving into the new standard, especially since 7.1 receivers are now below $500. Also, since they have a decent setup, if your friends aren't jumping into HD disc content they're wasting their HD dollars.

Seriously? Most people I know just managed to get onto 2.1... much less 5.1... I would agree that most prosumers have 5.1... but 7.1?

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Compared to HD disc setups, it wouldn't look or sound "wonderful". However, that's a TV show. Have them play the same movie on Xbox Live and BD (or even HD-DVD), then see how it goes.

I do play movies on XBox Live. I don't have a 5.1 system, but they look just fine and I have a 1080p TV.

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Choke on this, they should. Your option is clearly inferior to all except the people who are watching on tiny displays and 2 speakers.

Um, 720p and 1080p are nearly indistinguishable up until 40"... Even then it takes quite a bit for 720p to start looking bad. So again... I don't know what your definition of "tiny display" is.

I wasn't aware 5.1 from digital files only sounded good on stereo speakers.

Originally Posted by Shaddim

That's really odd, and I doubt it's the norm. 50"+ sets, now that they're reaching the $1000 mark, are getting very common.

Um no. 40" is just starting to get to the $1000 mark. If you're lucky, you might be able to pick up a low quality HD monitor at 46" for $1000.

Originally Posted by Shaddim

7.1 is moving into the new standard, especially since 7.1 receivers are now below $500. Also, since they have a decent setup, if your friends aren't jumping into HD disc content they're wasting their HD dollars.

Seriously? Most people I know just managed to get onto 2.1... much less 5.1... I would agree that most prosumers have 5.1... but 7.1?

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Compared to HD disc setups, it wouldn't look or sound "wonderful". However, that's a TV show. Have them play the same movie on Xbox Live and BD (or even HD-DVD), then see how it goes.

I do play movies on XBox Live. I don't have a 5.1 system, but they look just fine and I have a 1080p TV.

Originally Posted by Shaddim

That's not HT, is it?

No, you're talking about theatre. We're talking about home theatre, you know, the sort of setups average people have in their homes. 180 inch projection takes you far out of the realm of home theater.

Originally Posted by Shaddim

People who watch movies on their computer monitors w/o surround setups aren't who HD disc systems are aimed at. I'm sure you guys will be just fine with your streaming stuff.

Computer monitors? I don't think anyone said anything about computer monitors...

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 15, 2008, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

No, you're talking about theatre. We're talking about home theatre, you know, the sort of setups average people have in their homes. 180 inch projection takes you far out of the realm of home theater.

BS. Go browse through the AVS forums. 180" projection systems are TRUE home theatres. That's what "home theatre" means, a THEATRE in your HOME. A 50" display with a 5.1 surround sound system, while nice, is what many consider a budget home theatre. Since I don't have the room right now, I can't go the projection route so my 46" 1080p display will have to do - but I don't consider that a "home theatre".

hyteckit · Jan 15, 2008, 06:54 PM

I would like to know what sound system and TV people have on this forum.

I have a DTS-ES 6.1 receiver, Panasonic SA-HE100. 42" Westinghouse LCD HDTV monitor.

Don't have surround speakers set up. Just 2.1 now. The place I rent doesn't really allow for 5.1 channel sound system. Might need some speaker arms for the ceiling.

Shaddim · Jan 15, 2008, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Um no. 40" is just starting to get to the $1000 mark. If you're lucky, you might be able to pick up a low quality HD monitor at 46" for $1000.

Panasonic - 56" 1080p Rear-Projection LCD HDTV - PT-56LCZ70

and there are deals like that every day.

Seriously? Most people I know just managed to get onto 2.1... much less 5.1... I would agree that most prosumers have 5.1... but 7.1?

It's the new coming standard and it's only getting cheaper. Again, this is HT, 5.1 is just the starting point.

I do play movies on XBox Live. I don't have a 5.1 system, but they look just fine and I have a 1080p TV.

"Just fine", but on a cheap 56" HD set you can tell the difference.

Um, 720p and 1080p are nearly indistinguishable up until 40"... Even then it takes quite a bit for 720p to start looking bad. So again... I don't know what your definition of "tiny display" is.

42" is the starting size for HT. We are actually trying to mimic a theater here, that's the whole point? Ain't it?

I wasn't aware 5.1 from digital files only sounded good on stereo speakers.

Not as good as the sound from BD, not even close.

No, you're talking about theatre. We're talking about home theatre, you know, the sort of setups average people have in their homes. 180 inch projection takes you far out of the realm of home theater.

Even with a smaller set you can tell quite a difference, like that inexpensive 56" I pointed at above. 42" is the starting point for HT, along with 5.1 sound, your solution falls short in this. We are actually trying to mimic a theater here, that's the whole point? Ain't it?

Computer monitors? I don't think anyone said anything about computer monitors...

Sounds like your set isn't much bigger than a PC monitor, so I would guess it fits more into that area. What is it, 32"? That's great for cable HD TV and casual solo viewing, but it's not HT.

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

BS. Go browse through the AVS forums...

Let's just stop there and look for a place populated with normal consumers instead.

Normal consumers wouldn't even have space for 180" of screen space, even if they could afford it. Most homes don't even have a flat wall that could fit a screen that size.

Again, when you look at a 180" screen, you're looking at an actual full blown theater.

Shaddim · Jan 15, 2008, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

BS. Go browse through the AVS forums. 180" projection systems are TRUE home theatres. That's what "home theatre" means, a THEATRE in your HOME. A 50" display with a 5.1 surround sound system, while nice, is what many consider a budget home theatre. Since I don't have the room right now, I can't go the projection route so my 46" 1080p display will have to do - but I don't consider that a "home theatre".

Oh pish-posh, 46" is great. As long as you're throwing down 5.1 you have a real HT.

Now, I'm getting yelled at to come watch 3:10 to Yuma, I'll have to pick up on this talk later.

starman · 07:23 PM

You know, goMac, you throw all these goddamn numbers around like you have the pulse of the f'n country at your fingertips.

WHERE DO YOU GET THESE MAGIC NUMBERS FROM?

Show links.

EDIT: You seem to say that people aren't in touch with the "average consumer". Well, what IS the "average consumer"? To you, there's the AC with HD, the AC without AC, the AC with 5.1, the AC without 5.1. You're making my head spin with all these little niche AC classes you're pulling out of your head. You seem to use "AC" as some way of arguing with others.

Also, you don't have 5.1 and you're in this thread? Seriously, get back in the kiddie pool.

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Panasonic - 56" 1080p Rear-Projection LCD HDTV - PT-56LCZ70

You're recommending a DLP tv and you're complaining about compression?

Originally Posted by Shaddim

It's the new coming standard and it's only getting cheaper. Again, this is HT, 5.1 is just the starting point.

You are insanely out of touch with the average consumer...

Originally Posted by Shaddim

"Just fine", but on a cheap 56" HD set you can tell the difference.

A cheap 56" can hardly get a respectable black level, and you're telling me the user is going to notice compression? I find it hard to believe someone is going to buy a $1000 DLP and then splurge on a 7.1 surround system btw...

Originally Posted by Shaddim

42" is the starting size for HT. We are actually trying to mimic a theater here, that's the whole point? Ain't it?

I think mid 30's is the size for home theater to start at... but again... you don't seem to understand the difference between home theater and making an actual theater. The reason home theater is different than theater is because home theaters are typically much smaller...

Regardless, whether or not an 180" projection screen is home theater, a large majority consumers are way out of reach of these systems.

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Not as good as the sound from BD, not even close.

I'm glad you have a system where you can tell. A overwhelming majority of people don't.

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Even with a smaller set you can tell quite a difference, like that inexpensive 56" I pointed at above. 42" is the starting point for HT, along with 5.1 sound, your solution falls short in this. We are actually trying to mimic a theater here, that's the whole point? Ain't it?

I really have a hard time believing that. Again, DLP's are bottom of the barrel when it comes to image quality. I don't think someone with a DLP is going to complain about 720p, considering that's what they are going to watch their broadcast TV in.

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Sounds like your set isn't much bigger than a PC monitor, so I would guess it fits more into that area. What is it, 32"? That's great for cable HD TV and casual solo viewing, but it's not HT.

I have a 40" tv. LN-S4096. I would think your average PC monitor is anywhere from 17"-22"....

jokell82 · Jan 15, 2008, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by starman

You know, goMac, you throw all these goddamn numbers around like you have the pulse of the f'n country at your fingertips.

WHERE DO YOU GET THESE MAGIC NUMBERS FROM?

Show links.

EDIT: You seem to say that people aren't in touch with the "average consumer". Well, what IS the "average consumer"? To you, there's the AC with HD, the AC without AC, the AC with 5.1, the AC without 5.1. You're making my head spin with all these little niche AC classes you're pulling out of your head. You seem to use "AC" as some way of arguing with others.

Also, you don't have 5.1 and you're in this thread? Seriously, get back in the kiddie pool.

You don't actually believe Shaddim that 50"+ TVs are the norm now, do you????

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

You don't actually believe Shaddim that 50"+ TVs are the norm now, do you????

Of course he does. I would think that a large number of those >50" tvs out there are DLP's, which means that you probably aren't really going to notice compression issues...

icruise · Jan 15, 2008, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Of course he does. I would think that a large number of those >50" tvs out there are DLP's, which means that you probably aren't really going to notice compression issues...

Why is that?

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Show links.

Why should I bother? The biggest "link" I've had thrown at me is the AVS Forum, which is hardly the pulse of your average consumer.

Originally Posted by starman

EDIT: You seem to say that people aren't in touch with the "average consumer". Well, what IS the "average consumer"? To you, there's the AC with HD, the AC without AC, the AC with 5.1, the AC without 5.1. You're making my head spin with all these little niche AC classes you're pulling out of your head. You seem to use "AC" as some way of arguing with others.

The average consumer without the average consumer? That's an odd market segment...

HD is really just starting to get into mainstream. Broadcast TV is mostly SD, and HD stations are mostly 720p. Most games on game consoles run at 720p. Bluray and HD-DVD is a flash in the pan, and DVD's are 480i, with most people only up-converting them as high as 1080i. Most budget tv's are either DLP's (not so great image quality) or 720p (with 1080p just starting to get into the budget range).

With all this in mind, your claim that people are going to notice that their movies are in 720p with compressed 5.1 audio looks bass ackwards.

Originally Posted by starman

Also, you don't have 5.1 and you're in this thread? Seriously, get back in the kiddie pool.

How long will it be before the minimum sound system for entry in this thread becomes 7.1? Seriously, you look ridiculous. Again, if I lived in a place where I could have a 5.1 sound system with a nice sub woofer I would get one, but I don't. The disadvantage of being a student.

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 15, 2008, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

I would like to know what sound system and TV people have on this forum.

Sharp Aquos 46" 1080p LCD
Yamaha V-1700 Receiver
Infinity Primus 360s (L & R)
Infinity Primus C25 (C)
Infinity Primus 160s (Rear Surround)
Infinity Primus P10 (Subwoofer)
60 GB PS3 (Blu-ray & gaming)
Toshiba XA-2 (HD-DVD and SD DVD)
Apple TV (Streaming Music, Movies, & TV shows)

The XA-2 and PS3 are connected to the Yamaha via HDMI which outputs to the Sharp via HDMI. Apple TV is connected via component cables to the Yamaha then output to the Sharp via HDMI. Also have a COX Cable HD receiver connected via component to the Yamaha for HD TV shows.

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

Why is that?

DLP's typically don't have great black levels, the contrast ratio is usually lower... Honestly, online movies look loads better than broadcast tv. Of course, next thing you know Starman and friends will insist that no one can stand watching broadcast tv...

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 15, 2008, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Why should I bother? The biggest "link" I've had thrown at me is the AVS Forum, which is hardly the pulse of your average consumer.

I beg to differ. The people who post on AVS are the "average consumer" when it comes to home theatre. Your idea of an average consumer is someone who still buys CRT TVs that weigh 300 lbs. and doesn't connect the TV to any kind of external sound system. If we are talking about high definition video (i.e., Blu-ray and HD-DVD), HD sound (TrueHD, DTS MA, etc.), and home theatre, the "average consumer" is someone who is likely to post at AVS.

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

I beg to differ. The people who post on AVS are the "average consumer" when it comes to home theatre.

They most assuredly aren't. The people your average Best Buy sells 40" tv's to have never heard of AVS Forum.

If you'd like to say that your average consumer doesn't have what you define as a "home theater", then just drop the home theater talk. I'm talking about your average consumer.

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

Your idea of an average consumer is someone who still buys CRT TVs that weigh 300 lbs. and doesn't connect the TV to any kind of external sound system.

No, it's not. I think the average consumer buys LCD or Plasma TV's in the 30"-40" range. Look at the home electronics stores. They don't sell CRT's. They sell lots of 30"-40" Plasmas and LCD's. That will tell you what consumers are interested in.

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

If we are talking about high definition video (i.e., Blu-ray and HD-DVD), HD sound (TrueHD, DTS MA, etc.), and home theatre, the "average consumer" is someone who is likely to post at AVS.

If the Bluray and HD-DVD camps only care about people who care about TrueHD, DTS MA, or have any idea what these things are, then they are unlikely to succeed in the long term. This is what people have tried to tell the uncompressed audio police, but they haven't listened.

Yes, uncompressed audio is important for your needs. For a large majority of people uncompressed audio is not at all important.

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 08:24 PM

Here you go... average HDTV size in the UK (No U.S. data available) as of late last year is...

32 to 37 inches

HD News - Average TV size rises dramatically

Sharp is predicting that we might reach 60 inches as the average size around 2015...

jokell82 · Jan 15, 2008, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

I beg to differ. The people who post on AVS are the "average consumer" when it comes to home theatre. Your idea of an average consumer is someone who still buys CRT TVs that weigh 300 lbs. and doesn't connect the TV to any kind of external sound system. If we are talking about high definition video (i.e., Blu-ray and HD-DVD), HD sound (TrueHD, DTS MA, etc.), and home theatre, the "average consumer" is someone who is likely to post at AVS.

Home theater isn't defined as narrowly as you assume. About.com says:

A home theater can be something as simple as a 27-inch TV, a basic DVD player and/or HiFi VCR, inexpensive stereo or AV receiver, and speakers. Whatever type of system you end up with, as long as it provides the entertainment options you need and like, then it is your "Home Theater".

Just because I only have a 42" plasma doesn't mean I don't own a home theater.

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 15, 2008, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Just because I only have a 42" plasma doesn't mean I don't own a home theater.

I never said it did.

starman · Jan 15, 2008, 08:34 PM

It's funny how people assume things in here.

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 15, 2008, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

They most assuredly aren't. The people your average Best Buy sells 40" tv's to have never heard of AVS Forum.

According to YOU.

Originally Posted by goMac

If you'd like to say that your average consumer doesn't have what you define as a "home theater", then just drop the home theater talk. I'm talking about your average consumer.

And I'm saying your definition of the "average consumer" is severely limited if you only include people who shop at Best Buy and buy 30"-40" LCD or plasmas.

Originally Posted by goMac

If the Bluray and HD-DVD camps only care about people who care about TrueHD, DTS MA, or have any idea what these things are, then they are unlikely to succeed in the long term. This is what people have tried to tell the uncompressed audio police, but they haven't listened.

Exactly. Blu-ray and HD-DVD are not targeted to your definition of an "average consumer". Yet. High definition movies (i.e., Blu-ray and HD-DVD) are pointless unless you have a large (42"+) TV and a good surround sound system. You won't notice much difference between 1080p and 480i on a 32" LCD and you definitely won't get the full experience that TrueHD, DTS MA, etc. offer without at least a 5.1 sound system.

Originally Posted by goMac

Yes, uncompressed audio is important for your needs. For a large majority of people uncompressed audio is not at all important.

Uncompressed audio is not important for many people because they do not have the speakers or receiver to take advantage of it and have likely never heard how great it sounds compared to stereo sound coming out of their TV speakers.

jokell82 · Jan 15, 2008, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

I never said it did.

Although I replied directly to you, I meant that more for Shaddim. He's the one who thinks it's not a home theater (because it's not "theater" enough).

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

According to YOU.

Great. Post some market research then. I did. Otherwise it's just your word too.

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

And I'm saying your definition of the "average consumer" is severely limited if you only include people who shop at Best Buy and buy 30"-40" LCD or plasmas.

You're trying to limit the definition of average consumer now?

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

Exactly. Blu-ray and HD-DVD are not targeted to your definition of an "average consumer". Yet. High definition movies (i.e., Blu-ray and HD-DVD) are pointless unless you have a large (42"+) TV and a good surround sound system. You won't notice much difference between 1080p and 480i on a 32" LCD and you definitely won't get the full experience that TrueHD, DTS MA, etc. offer without at least a 5.1 sound system.

Then talk of Bluray or HD-DVD becoming mass market is useless, is it not?

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

Uncompressed audio is not important for many people because they do not have the speakers or receiver to take advantage of it and have likely never heard how great it sounds compared to stereo sound coming out of their TV speakers.

I like the features that come on BMW's. I'm sure if I sat down and drove one I'd be very impressed. Would I immediately rush out and buy one? Probably not. My Accord is more than good enough for me.

I hoping you understand why that is relevant to your argument.

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 15, 2008, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Although I replied directly to you, I meant that more for Shaddim. He's the one who thinks it's not a home theater (because it's not "theater" enough).

Actually I think you misinterpreted his post. I don't think that he meant that you need a 180" projection system to have a "home theatre".

starman · Jan 15, 2008, 08:52 PM

Great. You posted UK numbers

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 15, 2008, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

You're trying to limit the definition of average consumer now?

No, go back and read my posts. I'm saying that the "average consumer" interested in home theatre is someone who will research surround sound systems, high-definition video, HDTVs, etc. and likely come across and start posting at AVS. Hence, the "average consumer" interested in home theatre is not limited to someone simply buying a 32-40" LCD or plasma from Best Buy.

Originally Posted by goMac

Then talk of Bluray or HD-DVD becoming mass market is useless, is it not?

For now, yes. Both the HD-DVD and Blu-ray camps need to get early adopters and people who are serious about home theatre to adopt first. Then they can go after the people that you define as the "average consumer".

Originally Posted by goMac

I like the features that come on BMW's. I'm sure if I sat down and drove one I'd be very impressed. Would I immediately rush out and buy one? Probably not. My Accord is more than good enough for me.

I hoping you understand why that is relevant to your argument.

I do, but I don't think it's a good analogy. You don't seem all that interested in home theatre. Fine. I still fail to understand why you are so involved in this thread when you don't own Blu-ray or HD-DVD and have little interest in high-definition video and audio.

jokell82 · Jan 15, 2008, 09:07 PM

There are under 260,000 worldwide AVS forum users. There is no way you could say the "average" person interested in home theater knows about that site, let alone posts on it.

And I know anecdotal evidence means jack squat, but I know many people who have home theater systems that have no idea what AVS is. My father has a 50" Panny plasma and a very nice system that I helped him pick out, but he has no idea AVS exists.

hyteckit · Jan 15, 2008, 09:13 PM

I think there are more hidef TVs than surround sound setup.

Hidef video - around 10% consumers who really care.
7.1 sound - less than 1% consumers who really care

residentEvil · Jan 15, 2008, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

I would like to know what sound system and TV people have on this forum.

depending on the definition used for HT; i have two

In my theater...
Sanyo PLV-Z4 projector
Draper Onyx 106" HiDef Grey screen
Onkyo TX-SR803 receiver
Samsung HD850 dvd player
Polk Audio CS400i center
Polk Audio RT800i fronts
Polk Audio RT55i surrounds
Polk Audio PSW250 sub

(old photos: Index of /hta)

In my living room...
LG SuperSlim 32" CRT
Onkyo TX-SR803 (liked my other one; picked up another for dirt cheap online)
Sony PlayStation 3 (40GB)
Polk Audio RM6880 speaker system

(no photos)

I move the PS3 between the two; but for every day game playing, it is in the living room. Theater isn't in use right now until I get some new furniture...

hyteckit · Jan 15, 2008, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by residentEvil

depending on the definition used for HT; i have two

In my theater...
Sanyo PLV-Z4 projector
Draper Onyx 106" HiDef Grey screen
Onkyo TX-SR803 receiver
Samsung HD850 dvd player
Polk Audio CS400i center
Polk Audio RT800i fronts
Polk Audio RT55i surrounds
Polk Audio PSW250 sub

(old photos: Index of /hta)

In my living room...
LG SuperSlim 32" CRT
Onkyo TX-SR803 (liked my other one; picked up another for dirt cheap online)
Sony PlayStation 3 (40GB)
Polk Audio RM6880 speaker system

(no photos)

I move the PS3 between the two; but for every day game playing, it is in the living room. Theater isn't in use right now until I get some new furniture...

Dude, I think I saw your photos on AVS forum.

I have a Sanyo PLV-Z1 projector. Bought it way bad, when all the AVS guys say how great it is for the price. Sadly, I haven't used it for a while. Just as my place won't allow for me to set up for 6.1 surround sound setup, I couldn't get a projector and screen setup either.

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Great. You posted UK numbers

Great. Find me U.S. numbers and then get back to me. Until then, I've posted the next best thing. The U.S. market is not going to be terribly different than the UK market.

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

No, go back and read my posts. I'm saying that the "average consumer" interested in home theatre is someone who will research surround sound systems, high-definition video, HDTVs, etc. and likely come across and start posting at AVS. Hence, the "average consumer" interested in home theatre is not limited to someone simply buying a 32-40" LCD or plasma from Best Buy.

Honestly, I think your average consumer is likely to buy a 5.1 surround system in a box.

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

For now, yes. Both the HD-DVD and Blu-ray camps need to get early adopters and people who are serious about home theatre to adopt first. Then they can go after the people that you define as the "average consumer".

You mean if Apple doesn't beat them to it? Apple's going after the average consumer now. By the time Bluray gets to the average consumer it may be too late.

The AppleTV isn't really that hard for your average consumer to set up.

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

I do, but I don't think it's a good analogy. You don't seem all that interested in home theatre. Fine. I still fail to understand why you are so involved in this thread when you don't own Blu-ray or HD-DVD and have little interest in high-definition video and audio.

My point is there is reality to take into account here. I can completely afford a 5.1 audio system. My TV has optical audio out, and I have 5.1 sources to feed into my TV. I don't live in a place where I can put a 5.1 system or a subwoofer. That's reality. So no matter how nice a 5.1 system sounds, I won't be getting one until I move somewhere else. In the mean time, I bought a top of the line TV a year and a half ago, I've upgraded my network to gigabit to more easily handle HD video, and I'm buying a Mac Pro to archive a video. And no, I'm not using my TV's onboard speakers, I'm using some nice Bose stereo speakers.

Maybe if you'd like to talk to people who only have 5.1 surround systems you should head back to the AVS Forums.

(It's not like because I don't personally have 5.1 that I don't know people with 5.1...)

Shaddim · Jan 15, 2008, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by starman

You know, goMac, you throw all these goddamn numbers around like you have the pulse of the f'n country at your fingertips.

WHERE DO YOU GET THESE MAGIC NUMBERS FROM?

Show links.

EDIT: You seem to say that people aren't in touch with the "average consumer". Well, what IS the "average consumer"? To you, there's the AC with HD, the AC without AC, the AC with 5.1, the AC without 5.1. You're making my head spin with all these little niche AC classes you're pulling out of your head. You seem to use "AC" as some way of arguing with others.

Also, you don't have 5.1 and you're in this thread? Seriously, get back in the kiddie pool.

They're clueless and have no concept of what HT is, or why HT enthusiasts are excited about HD disc media. Hell, they don't even own a HT, but they want to argue with experts (yes, I'm a HT expert, I even get paid to set them up sometimes) about what constitutes such a setup. Again, they aren't HT owners, they aren't fans, they don't even qualify for such a discussion.

It explains their grousing about TV sizes, number of audio channels, and quality of the movies themselves. Clueless. What they don't realize is that HD discs were introduced to appeal to HT buffs and the dearth of new HT buyers exploding into the market. Otherwise, everyone would just stick with vanilla DVD and get a decent scaling player. They missed the boat over what BD and HD-DVD are about, and who is buying into it, HT lovers.

But, I guess the real hook is they're still bitter, angry, little people. Their format lost and now they're trying to hold on to anything or even find another enemy for Blu-ray, but the reality is that Blu-ray has absolutely won. It is the HD media of choice for HT for the next several years.

Will streaming HD video win, many years from now? Probably, once we all (80+% of users) have 100Mb fibre connections, but that's not tomorrow, maybe around 2015. I gotta tell ya though, it better be good, and it better match up in specs and quality, because by then every Tom, Dick, and Harriet Wal-Mart shopper will have 65" HD LCD sets and 7.1 audio.

Actually I think you misinterpreted his post. I don't think that he meant that you need a 180" projection system to have a "home theatre".

Of course they did, they want to avoid the issue here, which is that Blu-ray is the new king of HT media. You have a nice HT setup, HD discs are targeted at you and you'll benefit from them.

Just because I only have a 42" plasma doesn't mean I don't own a home theater.

Let's see, I said:

42" is the starting size for HT. We are actually trying to mimic a theater here, that's the whole point? Ain't it?

You're missing the boat, it's sailing over in that direction.

BTW, 3:10 to Yuma on BD is fantastic. It's a very worthwhile purchase.

Shaddim · Jan 15, 2008, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Great. Find me U.S. numbers and then get back to me. Until then, I've posted the next best thing. The U.S. market is not going to be terribly different than the UK market.

Honestly, I think your average consumer is likely to buy a 5.1 surround system in a box.

You mean if Apple doesn't beat them to it? Apple's going after the average consumer now. By the time Bluray gets to the average consumer it may be too late.

The AppleTV isn't really that hard for your average consumer to set up.

My point is there is reality to take into account here. I can completely afford a 5.1 audio system. My TV has optical audio out, and I have 5.1 sources to feed into my TV. I don't live in a place where I can put a 5.1 system or a subwoofer. That's reality. So no matter how nice a 5.1 system sounds, I won't be getting one until I move somewhere else. In the mean time, I bought a top of the line TV a year and a half ago, I've upgraded my network to gigabit to more easily handle HD video, and I'm buying a Mac Pro to archive a video. And no, I'm not using my TV's onboard speakers, I'm using some nice Bose stereo speakers.

Maybe if you'd like to talk to people who only have 5.1 surround systems you should head back to the AVS Forums.

(It's not like because I don't personally have 5.1 that I don't know people with 5.1...)

Again, completely clueless about the target audience for Blu-ray, and even HD-DVD for that matter.

residentEvil · 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Dude, I think I saw your photos on AVS forum.

I have a Sanyo PLV-Z1 projector. Bought it way bad, when all the AVS guys say how great it is for the price. Sadly, I haven't used it for a while. Just as my place won't allow for me to set up for 6.1 surround sound setup, I couldn't get a projector and screen setup either.

I've had an Epson PowerLite 7250 back in my loft with Comcast HD; one of the first installs in the city of Detroit...just in time for the Masters in what, 2000 I think it was, then the Sanyo PLV-Z2 and now the Z4 in my house. I really like the new Z2000 as it is full 1080p, but the Z4 does very well at 720p. Rather put the money into some nice furniture now...and someone to take photos of the theater. I suck with my digital point and shoot (well, I would suck with any camera...I think it is the user). I did all the work myself as far as construction/painting/carpet; had someone help with the drapes (still need to finish the bottom hem).

changed year; i think it was 1999/2000/2001; don't recall. probably 2000. i know i missed the super bowl in HD that year. sorta all blurs together around then

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

They're clueless and have no concept of what HT is, or why HT enthusiasts are excited about HD disc media.

Why do you keep talking about HT enthusiasts when other people are talking about the average consumer? I'm well aware that HD enthusiasts with their 180 inch screens and their glass 7.1 speakers and batcave themed home theaters will probably prefer HD-DVD/Bluray. I highly doubt my local 9 screen movie theater will be moving to the AppleTV either. But you simply don't get it. The average consumer does not have these things. To the average consumer, the AppleTV now represents very viable alternative to Bluray, HD-DVD, and the format wars in general.

There is a complete disconnect in what you are saying and what I am saying. Yes, for you and your fellow above 60" TV owners the AppleTV may not be the best option but for your average majority of the market consumer the AppleTV is a very good option.

Get it yet?

starman · Jan 15, 2008, 09:55 PM

I find it funny that goMac talks about "average consumers" not caring, but Best Buy will carve out a chunk of a store for Magnolia.

Good job, goMac, good job.

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by starman

I find it funny that goMac talks about "average consumers" not caring, but Best Buy will carve out a chunk of a store for Magnolia.

Have you ever been in a real Magnolia Hifi store? You know... not one inside a Best Buy store? Best Buy's Magnolia is not a high end store in the least.

jokell82 · Jan 15, 2008, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Let's see, I said:

You're missing the boat, it's sailing over in that direction.

Gotcha. I'll have to call my friend and let him know that his 37" TV does not qualify his setup as a home theater. Thanks for setting me and him straight.

Eug · Jan 15, 2008, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

There is a complete disconnect in what you are saying and what I am saying. Yes, for you and your fellow above 60" TV owners the AppleTV may not be the best option but for your average majority of the market consumer the AppleTV is a very good option.

Get it yet?

Except AppleTV isn't a good option for either group, judging by sales numbers.

But no, it's not because of the resolution.

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Except AppleTV isn't a good option for either group, judging by sales numbers.

But no, it's not because of the resolution.

No, it's been because of the sucky software. I completely understand why the AppleTV was a horrible solution before today, and I'm not saying it was a good solution before today. But I think going forward from today with the new software, and the support of all major studios from both sides of the format war it is a very viable solution, and I think we'll see sales increase.

I know quite a few people who were waiting until MacWorld to see what happened with the AppleTV, myself included.

Shaddim · Jan 15, 2008, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

Why is that?

I'll explain.

DLP's typically don't have great black levels, the contrast ratio is usually lower... Honestly, online movies look loads better than broadcast tv. Of course, next thing you know Starman and friends will insist that no one can stand watching broadcast tv...

For new DLP sets, this is crap. The black levels on most new sets are great, the one I pointed out earlier is one of the better units out there in it's price range.

Specs? Let's look at those.

3,000:1 contrast ratio. Now, more often than not, figures like this mean a little more than jack. Why? Because most manufacturers fudge these numbers horribly. However, in this case it's not too far off the mark, with a little research you can find that the model I pointed out reviews very well. It's a solid HD set with better contrast than many LCDs in it's size range.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 15, 2008, 10:09 PM

If you guys were trying to sell us on the idea that a HD-DVD player has to be under $100 for the masses to take it on what makes you think are willing to pay $230 + High Speed internet for something that lets them do little more than rent movies?

Many High speed packages also have unreasonable data caps that renting movies online isn't going to help. Also a year from now I bet the ISP's are going to want a slice of the pie for all the increased data.

goMac · Jan 15, 2008, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

For new DLP sets, this is crap. The black levels on most new sets are great, the one I pointed out earlier is one of the better units out there in it's price range.

New sets? Most manufacturers are discontinuing DLP's....

Originally Posted by Shaddim

3,000:1 contrast ratio. Now, more often than not, figures like this mean a little more than jack. Why? Because most manufacturers fudge these numbers horribly. However, in this case it's not too far off the mark, with a little research you can find that the model I pointed out reviews very well. It's a solid HD set with better contrast than many LCDs in it's size range.

Contrast ratios may be good but the black levels in DLP's are subpar. LCD's are better, and Plasmas destroy DLP. It's pretty obvious why this is, given that DLP's work by shining a giant light at the screen...