[theolein]

I read through this thread last night and was honestly a bit shocked to see so many have this problem. I have had one system freeze with OSX in 3 years, and was under the impression that the OS was more stable than this.

I see people have taken different approaches to fixing this problem, and I do hope that everyone had notified Apple, so that they will get their butts on the problem.

What I would suggest in the mean time is that people with this problem post their OS version and hardware setup, plus any non standard software such as haxies that they have running. Perhaps that way one could see if there was a correlation between the various setups. Who knowa, perhaps everyone with the problem uses the same printer, or mouse or even airport?

What one could also perhaps try is to create another user and try using that for a while and see if the problem also occurs there.

My own suspicion is that one of the drivers that comes with OSX has a problem. I doubt that it is a specific application problem, such as iTunes. My guess is that it is perhaps a network driver or combination of drivers.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by Toutgood:
I have isolated the problem for me: stop using itunes with the usual illustrator/photoshop/dreamweaver or flash setup. Not a real solution but no freezes in the last few weeks. Could be something else though...

The same here I've been doing heavy scanning+photoshop the last two days without any problems while listening to the radio or CD's. I then put on iTunes and boom! a few hours later complete lockup resulting in loss of work. :brick

And I don't buy the RAM thing, it's quite impossible that such a large number of people have their RAM fail instantly upon using 10.3.

[siMac]

OK, here's my setup:

Hardware.
iBook Dual USB 700MHz (always mains connected).
384MB RAM (128 Factory, 256 Crucial).
iPod 3G 20GB, almost always connected.
Contour optical USB mouse, always connected.
Airport Card.
D-Link DWB 120M USB Bluetooth adapter, frequently in use, but not always present during a freeze.

Software.
OS X 10.3.5.
.Mac active.
'Haxies': ShapeShifter, Fruitmenu, WindowShadeX, ClearDock.
PrefPane Based Apps: Growl, Little Snitch, Salling Clicker
Other continually running apps: Quicksilver, MenuCalendarClock, BuddyPop, Adium.

Conditions under which freezes occur.
iTunes has always been running when a freeze has occured, however, as Apple so frequently point out, an app shouldn't crash the system due to protected memory, but I suppose could be triggering a system-level problem that causes the freeze.

Outgoing network activity seems to be a common factor too. Freezes seem to occur either whilst using a BitTorrent or P2P client, whilst uploading to my iDisk, or similar.


Due to the differing setups I've already read about in this thread I'm ever more inclined to believe that there is indeed a common problem with the MacOS core/kernel which can be set off by a number of different triggers.

[siMac]

Originally posted by theolein:
I do hope that everyone had notified Apple

Oh they know all right.

They know to the point of deleting threads like this one from their discussion boards.

[bells0]

i get this too on my rev B D1.8, 9600Xt and 2gig Ram G5

last night it happened whilst playin MOH AA.

unfortunately it also happened whilst i had a mate round and i was busy bragging how cool Macs were and that they never crash.......................

[ajsedlak]

Regarding my instances of the start-and-stop freeze, I've been freeze free for a couple of weeks now since disabling crash reporter. Ideally, I will zero my drive soon, but being a work computer, I'm rarely in a position to take the time to do this. In the meantime, this appears to be working. Others getting this particular freeze may want to try it.

[Busemann]

Originally posted by bells0:
i get this too on my rev B D1.8, 9600Xt and 2gig Ram G5

last night it happened whilst playin MOH AA.

unfortunately it also happened whilst i had a mate round and i was busy bragging how cool Macs were and that they never crash.......................

that doesn't sound like the same issue. if it freezes in games, its more often than not the game that is the culprit.

[theolein]

How many here use haxies?

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by theolein:
How many here use haxies?

I don't use them. Never have.

[Spliff]

Originally posted by siMac:
Conditions under which freezes occur.
iTunes has always been running when a freeze has occured, however, as Apple so frequently point out, an app shouldn't crash the system due to protected memory, but I suppose could be triggering a system-level problem that causes the freeze.

Outgoing network activity seems to be a common factor too. Freezes seem to occur either whilst using a BitTorrent or P2P client, whilst uploading to my iDisk, or similar.

Due to the differing setups I've already read about in this thread I'm ever more inclined to believe that there is indeed a common problem with the MacOS core/kernel which can be set off by a number of different triggers. [/B]

For me, iTunes has nothing to do with my freezes. Everytime I've had a freeze, there have been only two common factors:

1) Heavily fragmented hard drive with 5-6 swap files (I have 512 MB RAM), less than 4 GB of free space, and small contiguous free space fragments (under 150 MB in size).

2) Heavy network activity and downloading, either running a bittorrent app or a Usenet reader (downloading binary files).

Defragging the drive stops the freezes for 2-3 weeks until the fragmentation gets bad. Apple's comments about Panther systems not needing to be defragged are plainly wrong.

[theolein]

The only application that has ever caused anything close to a freeze on my old system was bittorrent. If I was running a big download on bittorrent, it would make other network apps such as ichat freeze up on occasion.

So who here uses bittorrent then? And how full were your harddrives?

[Powaqqatsi]

No Bittorrent here, 1GB of RAM and 9,21GB free on the internal 40GB and 26GB free on the 160GB external FW drive. iTunes is playing 75% of the time when the freezes occur.

[theolein]

I suppose this question has often been asked, but have you checked the panic.log to see if anything is noted there or perhaps all the logs?

[Spliff]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
No Bittorrent here, 1GB of RAM and 9,21GB free on the internal 40GB and 26GB free on the 160GB external FW drive. iTunes is playing 75% of the time when the freezes occur.

It really looks like a file system bug that is triggered by the behaviour of certain apps. There may be other factors (disk fragmentation) that can contribute or encourage a system freeze, but they are not the sole or primary trigger.

Do you have iTunes sharing turned on? I wonder if iTunes is carrying out periodic network activity when the system locks up.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by Spliff:
It really looks like a file system bug that is triggered by the behaviour of certain apps. There may be other factors (disk fragmentation) that can contribute or encourage a system freeze, but they are not the sole or primary trigger.

Do you have iTunes sharing turned on? I wonder if iTunes is carrying out periodic network activity when the system locks up.

Nope iTunes sharing is off. 9 out 10 the freezes occur while using Photoshop+iTunes so it's just disk intensive apps that trigger it if you ask me. Not necesserely network activity. Internet is always on but mostly only Safari with light browsing and/or MSN.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by theolein:
I suppose this question has often been asked, but have you checked the panic.log to see if anything is noted there or perhaps all the logs?

Nothing in the logs.

I have disabled crash reporter yesterday so I'll report if that fixes something.

[badidea]

I have read this thread every once in a while but never read ALL of it!
The impression I now have is that there a two different problems discussed here:
- people who do have problems with apps that have a memory leak and therefor create lots of swap files which bring the OS to stop responding but will wake up again if you just wait long enough (like me)!?
- people who see a similar behaviour but the system will never ever come back to live, nomatter how long you wait!?

Am I right?

I do have this swap file problem quite often, mostly with apps like bitorrent, deep vaccum or mlmac!
I have also had a swap file problem with Butler (a menu app) or it was a problem with the combination of Butler and something else (however, disabling Butler solved it) - anyhow, right after a cold startup the system started to create one swap file after another and I often had to wait about 10-15 minutes until I finally could start doing anything!

[Spliff]

Originally posted by badidea:
I have also had a swap file problem with Butler (a menu app) or it was a problem with the combination of Butler and something else (however, disabling Butler solved it) - anyhow, right after a cold startup the system started to create one swap file after another and I often had to wait about 10-15 minutes until I finally could start doing anything!

I've stopped running Butler. Something about my system didn't feel right when it was running. LaunchBar works for me now.

[tuqqer]

As I posted earlier, for the past 2+ weeks, I've had my first sweat-producing problem with my G5 2Ghz: Hard Freezing, where the only thing that moves is the mouse, and the only way out is a Hard Restart.

After the longest troubleshooting foray in my Mac career, I found the fix.

Short answer: it was software (not RAM, not hardware, not USB ports)

Long answer: below, outlined in the first bug report I ever filed, to the software manufacture. Chances are close to nil that anyone else in this thread uses the same software, but I think that it's encouraging that the fix was software related. Bottom line: INSTALLED OSX SOFTWARE can, in fact, cause your G5 to freeze. Period.


BUG REPORT
Wednesday, October 21, 3:06PM,

Hello Parliant,

After doing a very thorough testing procedure over the past 2 weeks, we need to report a severe bug in PhoneValet (http://www.parliant.com/)

We are requesting a response back to this, so we know if it's
1. a known issue;
2. if there are any suggestion for further testing;


Below is thorough documentation (the problem, and the procedure that we followed) --

��� We purchased PhoneValet Message Center on September 3rd, 2004

��� We installed it as soon as we got it, around September 6th.

��� Our system is:
-- G5 2Ghz, purchased new from Apple March 2003
-- OS 10.3.5
-- 2.5 Megs of original Samsung RAM
-- All Apple updates installed (we run the Updater daily)
-- Dual 20" Dell LCDs
-- PhoneValet connected to a Pertech 7 port Hub Master

��� The morning after installing PV (over 2 weeks ago), the screen froze. Only the mouse would move. Nothing was clickable. No keys worked, therefore Force Quitting didn't work. Dock didn't work. The only solution was to do a Hard Restart (holding down the G5 tower's Power button).

��� It's important to note that we had never had a Hard Freeze (as we're calling it) before. Not even once. Also, since installing Panther, we haven't had one kernel panic.

��� Our first thought was that it was a fluke. When we got a second Hard Freeze a few hours later, we immediately suspected keyboard or USB problems, so we switched to another USB hub. When we got a third Hard Freeze later that day, we started doing a huge number of tests. Here is what we did, roughly in the order we did it:

��� Run software diagnostics and maintenance
-- DiskWarrior 3.0.2
-- TechTools Pro 4.0.3 (the longest full suite of repairs available, the one that takes 3 hours)
-- memtest (to check the RAM)
-- Onyx (which includes basic maintenance such as removing caches and running cron scripts)
-- Reset PRAM

We ran the above software numerous times over the course of the last 14 days.

��� RAM:
-- We removed all the RAM, including the original two 256 chips.
-- We replaced first just the 256s. Ran for 2 hours, and got a Hard Freeze.
-- We then replaced it with two 512s. Ran until the next morning, and then a Hard Freeze
-- We then replaced it with the other two 512s. Hard Freeze again the next morning.

���_New Hard Drive and New OS:
-- Our G5 has an identical internal second drive (7200 rpm 160 gig) that we use for backup, called Drive 2.
-- We zeroed this Drive 2, using Apple's original Panther Disks
-- We installed Panther, and then ran all of the Updates.

��� Newly installed software, carefully chosen:
-- We then installed Office 2004, ran its updates.
-- We installed our printer drivers (all downloaded from each site, to be sure they were latest)
-- We copied over ONLY the Documents folder from the other drive (about 7 Gigs in size)

We then used this Drive 2, and for the first time in a 9 days, we were problem free for 24 hours. Then 48 hours. Then on the morning of the 3rd day, we installed PhoneValet. Ten minutes later, we got the Hard Freeze again.

We removed PhoneValet, and the G5 ran all day without a glitch.

That was yesterday. We've been up and running since.
�,� ��`�� �,��,� ��`�� �,��,� ��`�� �,��,� ��`�� �,��,� ��`�� �,��,� ��`�� �,�
[END OF LETTER TO PARLIANT]



Amazing experience. Wasted all that time, when I should have suspected the new software. Just loved the PhoneValet so much that I think I was in denial. Also, I just didn't think a piece of sofware could hard freeze the system like this. Man, what a lesson. I would've bet good money that it was RAM, or a video card, or something else other than what it was.

One good thing out of it: it's always a cool thing to do a fresh zero'd install. Everything does feel lighter, zippier. I think my sex life is better, and my car runs smoother, too.

Sure hope this helps someone in this list. I certainly don't think all of these G5 freezes are software related, but I would bet that many are. I don't understand memory leaks, and software that can shut an entire system down like this, but there you go: it happened.

My suggestion: zero your drive, and start fresh.

[siMac]

Please stop calling them G5 freezes.

It has nothing to do with the processor, there are people experiencing them on G4s and I run a G3.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by tuqqer:
text

It is possible that this software gave you problems, but I'm sure that almost nobody here has this software installed. And as said above, they are NOT G5 freezes, most people are having them with G4's and G3's.

In my case it has nothing to do with new software. I didn't install anything new since I've been having these freezes (except for maybe an update here and there). It's really the OS that's ****in something up.

Anyway, good that you got yours fixed.

I think I'm going to do a fresh install this weekend, my system is starting to act really weird. Photoshop won't unhide for example, it still works but it doesn't show the windows when I unhide it. My external HD was unmounted this morning when I woke him up. After logging out and in my menu extras and clock didn't load... Too much weirdness for me. I don't like the idea of doing a reinstall because it wastes countless hours but I think it's wise to do it.

[siMac]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
Photoshop won't unhide for example

I've always found that all the Adobe apps can be flaky when it comes to hiding/unhiding in OS X. They like to hide but they won't always come back, no matter what you do.

I don't know if it's a related problem or not.

[tuqqer]

I think I'm going to do a fresh install this weekend, my system is starting to act really weird. Photoshop won't unhide for example, it still works but it doesn't show the windows when I unhide it. My external HD was unmounted this morning when I woke him up. After logging out and in my menu extras and clock didn't load... Too much weirdness for me. I don't like the idea of doing a reinstall because it wastes countless hours but I think it's wise to do it

I didn't relish the thought of zeroing the drive myself. All I can say is that I'm very, very glad I did.

Do report back with your results. Be sure not to add your apps back in too quickly!

And thanks for the correction, that G3s and G4s are also experiencing these hard freezes.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by siMac:
I've always found that all the Adobe apps can be flaky when it comes to hiding/unhiding in OS X. They like to hide but they won't always come back, no matter what you do.

I don't know if it's a related problem or not.

No, it's probably not related but it's annoying nonetheless and this is another reason for me to think about a reinstall.

[willrob]

>>Nope iTunes sharing is off. 9 out 10 the freezes occur while using Photoshop+iTunes so it's just disk intensive apps that trigger it if you ask me. Not necesserely network activity. Internet is always on but mostly only Safari with light browsing and/or MSN.<<

I believe iTunes uses a disk buffer when playing, and if Photoshop's stratch disk is also on the same drive there can be a conflict� add the systems VM swap files and you have a recipe for disaster.

I moved PS's scratch to a second drive, and my iTunes library to yet another drive (I have all four drive bays in my G4 filled). So I've never had a freeze while iTunes was ripping or playing or burning and other disk intensive activities are going on.

For me the culpret, as I posted earlier, was having the nap feature turned on with dual processors. I now only use it with single processor which is all I need for tasks like browsing or writing�the fans stop spinning and the computer temp drops to 99�.

[badidea]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
...
My external HD was unmounted this morning when I woke him up. After logging out and in my menu extras and clock didn't load...

Not to make you nervous but some weeks ago I had similar behaviour with a HD (not mounting) - it died a few days later!!!

Your menu extras problem also sounds familiar! Do you have Fruit Menu installed?
I had lots of problems with it (menu extras not loading), disabled it for a long time (everything was fine then), then reinstalled it because I couldn't live without it and the problems didn't come back yet - don't know what helped though!

[theolein]

I took a quick look at tugger's software/hardware equipment site, parliant, and noticed the following: It's a combination of hardware (USB device) and software (application and driver for the USB device). My guess is the same as my original one:

The device driver, which is a kernel extension, is at fault.

There is another thread going where the guy has kernel panics and is running a load of external firewire and usb devices (hard drives, motu etc). The highest probability is that the device drivers are causing the problem. That is why I asked people to post their hardware configs, since I found it strange that enough people are having this problem to make it newsworthy, but not enough to make it a generally acknowledged OSX OS problem.

Powaqqatsi: What is your hardware/software config? Do you have any external devices that have their own drivers? (You mentioned an external drive) Have you any special software that installs drivers or interacts with the hardware? Have you looked at the manufacturers' sites to see if there are any firmware or software upgrades?

Just wondering.

The reason that I think the problem lies with device drivers is because they operate within the kernel memory space, so to speak, and therefore have the capacity to trash the kernel whereas normal userland software should not have access to kernel memory space, and while they could cause massive memory leaks and lock the system up because of that, they shouldn't be able to crash the system.

There are some analysis tools in the Developer tools, which I think some of you have already used, such as shark and thread viewer, which should allow you to see if there are memory leaks. Also, running top in the terminal or activity monitor should allow you to see which aplications are running wild.

[tuqqer]

Interesting info, theolian. Thanks. Although all of this is way beyond my knowledge, the idea that a device driver gets installed deeply into the system (kernel extension), allows me to understand how a piece of software could lock down the entire computer.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by willrob:
>>Nope iTunes sharing is off. 9 out 10 the freezes occur while using Photoshop+iTunes so it's just disk intensive apps that trigger it if you ask me. Not necesserely network activity. Internet is always on but mostly only Safari with light browsing and/or MSN.<<

I believe iTunes uses a disk buffer when playing, and if Photoshop's stratch disk is also on the same drive there can be a conflict� add the systems VM swap files and you have a recipe for disaster.

I moved PS's scratch to a second drive, and my iTunes library to yet another drive (I have all four drive bays in my G4 filled). So I've never had a freeze while iTunes was ripping or playing or burning and other disk intensive activities are going on.

For me the culpret, as I posted earlier, was having the nap feature turned on with dual processors. I now only use it with single processor which is all I need for tasks like browsing or writing�the fans stop spinning and the computer temp drops to 99�.

Photoshop's cache is on the external hard drive, my music is on the same external hard drive.

Originally posted by badidea:
Not to make you nervous but some weeks ago I had similar behaviour with a HD (not mounting) - it died a few days later!!!

Your menu extras problem also sounds familiar! Do you have Fruit Menu installed?
I had lots of problems with it (menu extras not loading), disabled it for a long time (everything was fine then), then reinstalled it because I couldn't live without it and the problems didn't come back yet - don't know what helped though!

I think you just made me nervous But I'm not too worried. And nope I don't have FruitMenu installed (never had it either). I'll tell you what happened:

Like I said Photoshop didn't want to unhide, so I force quit it. But it's still in the dock not responding, I open the terminal and did a Kill+PID Photoshop disappeared from the "top" process list but remained in the dock. I then killed the dock, same thing, photoshop still there. I logged out and back in an then the menu extras and clock wouldn't load. Everything was fine after a reboot.

If this stuff happens again I'll be worried.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by theolein:
Powaqqatsi: What is your hardware/software config? Do you have any external devices that have their own drivers? (You mentioned an external drive) Have you any special software that installs drivers or interacts with the hardware? Have you looked at the manufacturers' sites to see if there are any firmware or software upgrades?

PowerBook Titanium 867 with original 40GB 4200rpm HD, 1GB RAM (2x512), AirPort card (not in use 95% of the time, hardwired to the internet through the gigabit ethernet port). External 160GB LaCie HD, no drivers needed for that one. USB hub, Epson Stylus Photo 750 printer, Canon 3200F scanner, iMic, Bluetooth thingy, Original Apple USB keyboard from my old PowerMac G4 (small keyboard), Logitech MX300 mouse. iPod mini (never attached when crashes occur).

The thing is that I had all of this stuff months ago when I didn't have these crashes. The crashes just started to occur all of a sudden. No new hardware/software added except for updates. The OS and every app on my machine is up to date.

[bells0]

Originally posted by Busemann:
that doesn't sound like the same issue. if it freezes in games, its more often than not the game that is the culprit.

nope - it does it out of games, this was the instance i was showing my mate the desktop and apps, think was imovie that caused it to crash with mouse movement, volume control etc but nothing could be opened/shut/stopped.

[siMac]

As long as we're suspecting kernel extensions, I did a search (visible and invisible items) for '.kext' on my system which turned up two third party kernel extensions:

TDIXController.kext - installed by Toast.
ODKUControl.kext - part of Little Snitch.

Anyone else got either of these?

[bremner770]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
PowerBook Titanium 867 with original 40GB 4200rpm HD, 1GB RAM (2x512), AirPort card (not in use 95% of the time, hardwired to the internet through the gigabit ethernet port). External 160GB LaCie HD, no drivers needed for that one. USB hub, Epson Stylus Photo 750 printer, Canon 3200F scanner, iMic, Bluetooth thingy, Original Apple USB keyboard from my old PowerMac G4 (small keyboard), Logitech MX300 mouse. iPod mini (never attached when crashes occur).

The thing is that I had all of this stuff months ago when I didn't have these crashes. The crashes just started to occur all of a sudden. No new hardware/software added except for updates. The OS and every app on my machine is up to date.

That's interesting, my set up is very similar albeit without all the external peripherals. I have a PowerBook Titanium 800 with original 40GB 4200 rpm HD, 1GB RAM (2X512), Airport card (in use all the time). I'm now convinced that the root of my problem was when I was connected to an original graphite base station whilst using any version of Airport drivers newer than what were supplied with 10.3. As mentioned earlier in the thread, I have since replaced my base station with an Airport Express and no longer experience the freezes and have been able to successfully upgrade to the latest Airport drivers.

When you do use Airport what do you use as a base station? If not using Airport have you tried disabling the network configuration so that the card isn't active?

Just a stab in the dark, but you never know.

[theolein]

Originally posted by siMac:
As long as we're suspecting kernel extensions, I did a search (visible and invisible items) for '.kext' on my system which turned up two third party kernel extensions:

TDIXController.kext - installed by Toast.
ODKUControl.kext - part of Little Snitch.

Anyone else got either of these?

I doubt those would be any real problem. Toast is used by a lot of peope and they would have noticed problems by now. Little Snitch's kext might be a problem, but I somehow doubt it, for the same reason as the toast one: A lot of people use it.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by bremner770:
When you do use Airport what do you use as a base station? If not using Airport have you tried disabling the network configuration so that the card isn't active?

Just a stab in the dark, but you never know.

WHEN I use airport it's either with an Airport Extreme basestation or on the wireless network ay my university and I don't know what they use. But the thing is that I rarely use AirPort so I can't really comment on AirPort influencing the lockups yes or no. When I'm not on AirPort the AirPort card is completely disabled.

[Big Mac]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
WHEN I use airport it's either with an Airport Extreme basestation or on the wireless network ay my university and I don't know what they use. But the thing is that I rarely use AirPort so I can't really comment on AirPort influencing the lockups yes or no. When I'm not on AirPort the AirPort card is completely disabled.

What version of the AirPort software do you have installed? I think some people claimed (earlier in the thread) that upgrading to the newer versions of AirPort caused the problem for them, even though they were not using AirPort cards.

[d0ubled0wn]

Originally posted by theolein:
I took a quick look at tugger's software/hardware equipment site, parliant, and noticed the following: It's a combination of hardware (USB device) and software (application and driver for the USB device). My guess is the same as my original one:

The device driver, which is a kernel extension, is at fault.

I have to agree with this. The last time I experienced a hard lock up (several months ago) was when I was scanning a document into Photoshop and listening to iTunes. Scanner is a usb Canon N650U. I wanted to blame iTunes since it was a new version at the time and I'd never had a problem scanning documents. But then again, I don't scan a lot of documents either. A badly written driver is most likely the cause.

[Powaqqatsi]

3.4.3 the latest.

BUT... I just opened System Profile (to look up that version number) and I saw something weird under Extensions:

AppleAirPort
AppleAirPort2

hmmm

AppleAirPort = version 3.1 and is LOADED
AppleAirPort2 = version 3.4.3 and is NOT LOADED

what's up with that, why is an older version of the AirPort kext loaded ? (and still on my system..)

[Toutgood]

ditto.

Anyway, just threw the tantrum of the century after a hard freeze (was opening a word doc and... )

I'm sooooooooooo sick of this. No word from Apple? This problem doesn't exist, even though it will likely exist for a whole goddamn year???


AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGHHH!

[theolein]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
3.4.3 the latest.

BUT... I just opened System Profile (to look up that version number) and I saw something weird under Extensions:

AppleAirPort
AppleAirPort2

hmmm

AppleAirPort = version 3.1 and is LOADED
AppleAirPort2 = version 3.4.3 and is NOT LOADED

what's up with that, why is an older version of the AirPort kext loaded ? (and still on my system..)

Possibly airport was running or not running, depending on the conditions needed by the updater to update the software, when you installed the update. On my system, I also have Airport and Airport2, but both are 3.4.3 (They don't say which version of 3.4.3 however), but Airport2 is loaded. I had Airport off when I installed the update.

Perhaps you should look for instructions to unload the extension by hand, and load the new one and see what happens.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Toutgood:
ditto.

Anyway, just threw the tantrum of the century after a hard freeze (was opening a word doc and... )

I'm sooooooooooo sick of this. No word from Apple? This problem doesn't exist, even though it will likely exist for a whole goddamn year???


AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGHHH!

What is your hard and software setup? Do you have lots of peripherals? Do you have Airport, and if so, what software version?

[Toutgood]

Let's see: Tibook 1 ghz, 768mb ram running 10.3.5. Latest updates of everything.

Wacom and Epson drivers:both essential. Happens in all sorts of situations. I've had this computer, and the ram for nearly 2 years. Problems started occuring this summers, after months of flawless performance even under 10.3. I hadn't receently installed anything, I am sure.

I've been through this entire thread, tried different stuf.

There is NO consensus, no proven fix. No single app that causes it. Happens with lots of network activity, as it does with little. The one common demoninator seems to be when I'm doing lots of work, with lots of apps open. This was never a problem under Jaguar.

No word from Apple either. I've investigated my options, and it seems that re-switching may be my only solution at this point.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Toutgood:
Let's see: Tibook 1 ghz, 768mb ram running 10.3.5. Latest updates of everything.

Wacom and Epson drivers:both essential. Happens in all sorts of situations. I've had this computer, and the ram for nearly 2 years. Problems started occuring this summers, after months of flawless performance even under 10.3. I hadn't receently installed anything, I am sure.

I've been through this entire thread, tried different stuf.

There is NO consensus, no proven fix. No single app that causes it. Happens with lots of network activity, as it does with little. The one common demoninator seems to be when I'm doing lots of work, with lots of apps open. This was never a problem under Jaguar.

No word from Apple either. I've investigated my options, and it seems that re-switching may be my only solution at this point.

The common denominators could in fact be more than just running loads of apps. Possibly it could be a problem with 10.3.5, since that came out this summer, or it could be a problem with RAM, since RAM can age, although it's rare. Those two would be my primary guesses and the wacom or epson drivers having a problem with 10.3.5 would be my second guesses.

I don't suppose you have Applecare anymore do you? Couldn't you ask Apple to look at the machine if you do? It would be a pity if you would switch back because of some small glitch that was eventually traced to broken hardware or a bad driver.

[tuqqer]

Theolein,

I wouldn't give up quite yet. I would try the zero'ing of the HD, and reinstalling of the OS. I'd bet money that with a zero'ed drive, and just Panther 10.3.5, your computer would never have the freeze again. I'd bet money it was software.

Hey, it's worth a shot

[theolein]

Originally posted by tuqqer:
Theolein,

I wouldn't give up quite yet. I would try the zero'ing of the HD, and reinstalling of the OS. I'd bet money that with a zero'ed drive, and just Panther 10.3.5, your computer would never have the freeze again. I'd bet money it was software.

Hey, it's worth a shot

Uhm, it's not me, it's toutgood who's having problems. With three Mac laptops, a Lombard 333MHz G3, a TiBook 667MHz G4 and my new 15" AlBook 1.33GHz G4, running from the OSX PB to OSX 10.3.5, I've had exactly one hard freeze in four years, and no kernel panics.

But, otherwise I agree. Toutgood would probably be best advised to zero the drive and do a clean install.

That said, wacom does mention the following with regards to upgrading the OS with a tablet driver installed:

NOTE: If you have upgraded your Macintosh operating system with the tablet driver installed, your tablet may not respond until you uninstall the driver, restart the system and reinstall it into the upgraded operating system.

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by theolein:
I read through this thread last night and was honestly a bit shocked to see so many have this problem. I have had one system freeze with OSX in 3 years, and was under the impression that the OS was more stable than this.

I see people have taken different approaches to fixing this problem, and I do hope that everyone had notified Apple, so that they will get their butts on the problem.

What I would suggest in the mean time is that people with this problem post their OS version and hardware setup, plus any non standard software such as haxies that they have running. Perhaps that way one could see if there was a correlation between the various setups. Who knowa, perhaps everyone with the problem uses the same printer, or mouse or even airport?

What one could also perhaps try is to create another user and try using that for a while and see if the problem also occurs there.

My own suspicion is that one of the drivers that comes with OSX has a problem. I doubt that it is a specific application problem, such as iTunes. My guess is that it is perhaps a network driver or combination of drivers.

there is a program out there that is guranteed to cause your machine to freeze up after a couple of "window resizes" ..

www.giofx.net
it's a 3D app for OpenGL and it's really cool, and shows of the power of the GPU you are using, however it seem to have a memory leak which causes the entire computer to freeze. This typically happens when you re-size the window while viewing one of the 3D effects.

[Toutgood]

Originally posted by theolein:
Uhm, it's not me, it's toutgood who's having problems. With three Mac laptops, a Lombard 333MHz G3, a TiBook 667MHz G4 and my new 15" AlBook 1.33GHz G4, running from the OSX PB to OSX 10.3.5, I've had exactly one hard freeze in four years, and no kernel panics.

But, otherwise I agree. Toutgood would probably be best advised to zero the drive and do a clean install.

That said, wacom does mention the following with regards to upgrading the OS with a tablet driver installed:

Zero my drive and do a clean install? That's one heck of a solution there! I could, of course do that, and I might just. But I have read on this forum of people doing the same, ans STILL getting the freeze.

I have naturally unistalled my drivers,and got the freeze. I'm starting to think it's a vm issue, or something. I'm sad that Apple can't at least acknowledge it. An acknowledgement would go a long way for me, here.

edit:

and one more thing. BOTH my mom and girlfriend have switched, buying a powerbook and ibook. Both have experienced the problem at least a couple times. My girlfriend hardly has anything on her ibook- and it only had the factory installed 256 mb ram. Ditto for my mom, and her 512 mb. Neither are power users with lots of apps open. Both use airport, but I myself have had the problem with airport TURNED off. Is it still something we've done? My gf's ibook has NO peripherals, except the usb mouse she uses....

[tuqqer]

whoops. thanks for the correction, Theolein

Zero my drive and do a clean install? That's one heck of a solution there! I could, of course do that, and I might just. But I have read on this forum of people doing the same, ans STILL getting the freeze

Actually, it IS a heck of a solution, toutgood. Since starting Mac'ing in 92, it's still the best solution to fixes over the years that I've found. You won't find it as troublesome as you may think. It will definitely take less time and frustration than what you have been (hey, and I was) going through. Chances are you can do it in one afternoon. I always find it quite satisfying: you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what exactly is in your computer, and what is not. You also know you're getting a factory fresh Mac.

I disagree, though, with the statement that "other people have done it and they're still getting freezes." I read all of these 600+ posts, and I didn't see anyone who had 1. zero'd the drive, 2. installed Panther and all updates, and 3. added nothing else for a few days.

That #3 step is crucial. It is the only way to determine if it is a software issue. Now I cheated and put in Office 2004 within the first couple hours, 'cause I felt it was not the problematic software. But I left every single thing else out for the period of time that I had beforehand been experiencing freezes.

Regarding your mom and GF's Macs: did they get them used, or brand new? Also, what peripherals do they have attached (i.e., what printers, etc.). Also, if you can, give us the entire list of software (other than what comes with Apple's install disks).

Again, I'd bet money you'd see the problem go away with a factory fresh install! Hang in there !

[Toutgood]

Originally posted by tuqqer:
Regarding your mom and GF's Macs: did they get them used, or brand new? Also, what peripherals do they have attached (i.e., what printers, etc.). Also, if you can, give us the entire list of software (other than what comes with Apple's install disks).

Brand.new. Explain that. I don't have their entire list of software though, but w're dealing with fairly straightforward stuff. My Mom installed Photoshop cs, and Office 2004

I will probably end up doing the clean install, as I said. It's not something I was looking forward to with this ultra stable OS, though. It just irks me that this issue is not acknowledged by Apple. But I'm past waiting for a solution. I'll try a clean install when I'm finished with a couple projects. Until that time I'm forced to do most of my intensive stuff on the pc.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Toutgood:
Brand.new. Explain that. I don't have their entire list of software though, but w're dealing with fairly straightforward stuff. My Mom installed Photoshop cs, and Office 2004

I will probably end up doing the clean install, as I said. It's not something I was looking forward to with this ultra stable OS, though. It just irks me that this issue is not acknowledged by Apple. But I'm past waiting for a solution. I'll try a clean install when I'm finished with a couple projects. Until that time I'm forced to do most of my intensive stuff on the pc.

Hi Toutgood, I can perfectly understand your frustration, as a problem like this can absolutely ruin the Mac and OSX experience for a new switcher user (or even a seasoned veteran, for that matter), and I can very well understand your aggravation that Apple doesn't want to recognise that there is a problem.

That said, Toutgood, please listen to my experience with my single hard freeze that I had. Strangely enough, in all the years that I've had OSX running, from the Public beta to OSX 10.3.5, on my previous Laptops (The Lombard and the TiPB), I never ever had a single hard freeze. BUT, I never had OSX originally on those systems. I alway had to install it first, since the Lombard originally only had OS8.6 on it and the TiPB came with 10.1 and I immediately installed 10.2 Jaguar onto it as I had just bought Jaguar. And when I got Panther, I backed up my data and formatted the drive and installed Panther clean.

Then, last month I bought my new Al15" Laptop. As with all Macs it came with the software pre-installed, but only one partition, which I do not like since I believe in seperating data and the OS on different partitions. In any case, when I first booted with the original install, Software update downloaded all the new updates, and after it had finished installing all of them it wanted to reboot, as is normal. Since I was going to reformat the drive in any case, I didn't immediately reboot but first played with some of the original software such as Omni Graffle and GarageBand. Then, when I finally was about to reboot, the machine froze solid as many have reported here. Only a hard reset could reboot it. (At the time I wasn't sure whether the problem was the known problem that the system sometimes hangs after an update or something new)

At the time, I was a bit worried, but I rebooted eventually, selected the Install DVD, rebooted again, formatted the disk with 4 partitions, and installed Panther in the first partition and all my data in the second, my software packages in the third and movies and audio stuff in the fourth.

Since then I've never had anoher problem.

I would agree with Tugger that reformatting the drive and perhaps even partitioning it and reinstalling the OS and then getting all the updates is a very good idea.

Also, if it works, we'll be one step further in being able to show Apple that there is some problem with their factory install process, in which case Apple will have to acknowledge it sonner or later.