Originally posted by TampaDeveloper:
Does sugar make chocolate cake? No. But add the rest of the ingredients and it does.

The question is can you make a cake without the sugar? Not a good one. Just like kids can become violent without video games.

If a child has "ingredients" of becoming violent, it's the parents' responsibility to get help for them.

Before video games, it was rock music. If it wasn't rock music, it was Dungeons and Dragons, if not that, it was certain books. Parents have long blamed everyone but themselves for failing to get help for their children.

[andi*pandi]

a 4 year old has a right to his innocence, and being scared of an semi-violent ad doesn't make him abnormal.

Whether the mom should have lobbied for the ad removal or not is another point, on the one hand I can see that she should have told her son it was just a story, makebelieve, whatever--however, I can also see that maybe the bus is the way they have to get to work/daycare, and she was sick of having to have a battle every day or be late or make a scene on the bus.

My 2 year old is scared of the grasshoppers in Bugs Life, yet was fascinated to see real grasshoppers. Kids know reality from make-believe--that doesn't make it any less scary.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by TampaDeveloper:
Another thing is, its one thing to reflect reality. Its entirely another thing to add violent fantasy to reality. I hear the "the world is violent, therefore lets add more" argument and it just doesn't hold water. Shouldn't we be trying to reduce what exists, not creating more?

That isn't what society wants. It used to be ok to have things like "public executions". On a Sunday morning Mom and Dad and "A" amount of children would sit though a 2 hour long (or more) sermon and then go to the gallows and watch a criminal get hung. That was totally acceptable, the kids probably even laughed or threw stuff at the condemned.

Times changed and it seems that we still crave that kind of "entertainment". But it is the way in which we get it that has changed. It would be considered barbaric to watch a man get his head chopped off but if you create it on a computer, give it a storyline and allow the person watching to decide at what angle he/she would like to cut through the "person's" neck then it is just fine.

I'm not trying to bad mouth games, I love violence just as much as the rest of society. Halo (muliplayer), great game, Max Payne, I thought it was awesome.

I just trying to say that before you arbitrarily throw out terms like "normal" "abnormal", realize that it's definition has and never will be, absolute.

That being said I thought the story was hilarious and regardless of how "refreshing" I stated it was in my previous post it doesn't change the fact: that kid is gonna get his @ss kicked so bad.

[badidea]

Originally posted by starman:
I'm making a point - just because that mother's kid is scared why should the ads be taken down?.

Don't be so f*cking sarcastic because you obviously haven't looked at the problem from BOTH SIDES.

The kid's father could have come after him with a knife. See?

Mike

I didn't see you making this point in your post!
I never said that I wanted the poster to be removed!

My post was referring to Zimphire's statement that this (4 year old) child would need help!

You referred to my post with your statement that your own 4 year old daughter wouldn't be scared giving me the impression that you also think that the other child therefor is not normal and needs professional help...

That's just stupid!

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by TampaDeveloper:

So coming back to violent video games, look at some of the reasons why it could mess up someones values... and these are just off the top of my head;

1) Condition's someone to become more comfortable with violent death. As an example of conditioning; I grew up in the outer suburbs. I had friends that lived closer to downtown Detroit. Now, I had no problem associating with kids in richer suburbs, and I had no problem associating with kids in lesser suburbs. But I would not hang around with kids from the downtown area because they were drastically different than me. They did drugs/worse drugs, they were more violent, they had societal values that I didn't hold. But my friend whom lived closer to the downtown area had no problem hanging out with downtown kids. On the other hand, he would not hang around with kids that were from the richer suburbs, for much the same reasons I didn't hang around with kids from downtown. What I'm trying to point out is that our daily lives condition us to see things as normal or abnormal. Putting a violent game in front of a kid subconsciously conditions that kid to see certain things as normal that perhaps he should see as abnormal.

2) Time spent playing video games is time away from the family. If its not something thats educational or serves a practical purpose, then its unnecessary. There are plenty of ways for kids to find enjoyment besides these types of games. I think he's better off spending time with his family (assuming a reasonable family. I understand that video games are an escape from reality for many). I have the same arguments against TV. Its too easy to come home from work, flip on the television, and ignore the real relationships in our lives.

3) Kids have a tendency to exaggerate. So, if something is within the norm, then their exaggerations are plausable extensions of that norm. An exaggeration of playing marco-polo in the pool is "I hid underwater for 4 minutes while my friends got tagged IT." An exaggeration of playing a FPS game might be something much more violent, again pushing that norm.

4) Society does not see its own problems. Its easy for us to point to the problems of other societies. But rarely are we able to identify the glaring problems with our own. I just feel its better to error on the side of caution than on the side of recklessness.

1) Thats not conditioning, its adaptation. Kids are extremely adept at it. This is why its important for them to have a good environment to grow up in.

2) Agreed. More parents should limit their kids time on games. I would say its better to get them involved in other things than simply tell them to get off the games.

4) They aren't problems. They are.. quirks. My society says public executions are wrong but many dont. I could argue up an down on either side but when it comes down to it both work for the society.

3) Parents should keep an eye on what types they own, not just glancing at what types they play. Talk to their friend's parents an find out what they play.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by ambush:
Dude shut up. He's a ****ing kid. I would probably be scared too.

Man... like get a ****ing grip on things and please stop posting here. Whatever you post is a waste of precious HD space and bandwidth.

LMAO!! Damn, you're pathetic. Ooooo... did the pictures scare little ambush too?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by soul searching:
The D did that because it was too large.

[TampaDeveloper]

Originally posted by Beewee:
...
I just trying to say that before you arbitrarily throw out terms like "normal" "abnormal", realize that it's definition has and never will be, absolute.
...

I agree with all of what you say. This sentance solidifies my thoughts on the whole thing. You're right. Theres no "normal" and "abnormal". Thats why each person should be very careful what the contribute to the world, since everything they do influences the "norm". Put that way, promoting violence (disregarding any arguments as to what promotes violence) is kind of like peeing in your own bathwater.

That being said I thought the story was hilarious and regardless of how "refreshing" I stated it was in my previous post it doesn't change the fact: that kid is gonna get his @ss kicked so bad.

You shouldn't be so proud of that. The kid might come to the conclusion that mom was wrong to be such a passivist and come to school the next day with a gun in his hand.

[Myrkridia]

Originally posted by TampaDeveloper:
No. First of all, I'm talking about violent video games, not video games in general. But even if we're talking about violent video games, I would argue no. I don't think that violent video games, alone, are capable of twisting someones mind to violent tendencies. But if you put them in a world who's values are completely screwed, and there are violent tendencies anyhow, then you are creating a recipe. Does sugar make chocolate cake? No. But add the rest of the ingredients and it does.

Ok ok ok. You're confusing me here. In your first post you say "I cannot think of better psychopathic-training material than these games,(FPS's) as evidence by the number of people who go off the deep end as a result of playing them."
Then in response to Zimphire's "You think video games turn most kids into psychos?"
you say "No. First of all, I'm talking about violent video games, not video games in general. But even if we're talking about violent video games, I would argue no." Well which is it? First you call it psychopathic-training, then say, oh but the psychopathic training doesn't breed psychos.

Next you go onto to say "I don't think that violent video games, alone, are capable of twisting someone's mind to violent tendencies. But if you put them in a world who's values are completely screwed, and there are violent tendencies anyhow, then you are creating a recipe." Which world are you speaking of? The societal world as a whole, or the microcosm that the child lives in (the family)?

So am I suppose to believe that out of all of the kinds of things that some kids have to deal with on a day to day basis: drugs, school, trying to fit in, pressure from parents to succeed or parents that are never there for them, sex, violence in the paper, violence in the news, bullies, etc. That after all of those pressures and societal stresses or as you called them "ingredients"; all you have to do is add a touch of "FPS" and BOOM! You've got a killer on your hands?


The paragraph that talks about "Time spent with video games is time away from the family" is true. In that, time spend playing video games IS time away from the family. Unfortunately this is not a perfect world, and spending actual quality time with one's family is at best a luxury that many don't get to experience. But any psychologist will tell you straight up that finding an escape from reality is a good thing and often times, healthy. Provided it's in moderation. My biggest worry are the kids that don't have an outlet for their frustrations. Take me for instance, I use exercise as a way to rid myself of stress, but I've also been known to release my frustrations by taking a shotgun and blowing the heads of a few unsuspecting zombies or throwing a grenade under an ambulance. I don't think I've become any more or less psychotic from that. Now if I didn't have those options readily available, logically the only place to "vent" would be in the real world.

I do agree with what you said for #4 many times we don't see the problems in our own lives because in my opinion, humans by nature are self-motivated creatures.
We are always wrapped up in what we are doing and rarely look at those who depend on us. Whether it be for advice, or just to be someone to talk to.

And if I ever have children, I intend to right beside them when they pop off their first virtual 9 mm round into the head of an enemy soldier, so I can say "Oh right in the face! Nice shooting Tristan!"

[TampaDeveloper]

Originally posted by Myrkridia:
Ok ok ok. You're confusing me here. In your first post you say "I cannot think of better psychopathic-training material than these games,(FPS's) as evidence by the number of people who go off the deep end as a result of playing them."
Then in response to Zimphire's "You think video games turn most kids into psychos?"
you say "No. First of all, I'm talking about violent video games, not video games in general. But even if we're talking about violent video games, I would argue no." Well which is it? First you call it psychopathic-training, then say, oh but the psychopathic training doesn't breed psychos.

Next you go onto to say "I don't think that violent video games, alone, are capable of twisting someone's mind to violent tendencies. But if you put them in a world who's values are completely screwed, and there are violent tendencies anyhow, then you are creating a recipe." Which world are you speaking of? The societal world as a whole, or the microcosm that the child lives in (the family)?

So am I suppose to believe that out of all of the kinds of things that some kids have to deal with on a day to day basis: drugs, school, trying to fit in, pressure from parents to succeed or parents that are never there for them, sex, violence in the paper, violence in the news, bullies, etc. That after all of those pressures and societal stresses or as you called them "ingredients"; all you have to do is add a touch of "FPS" and BOOM! You've got a killer on your hands?

Yep, I totally waffled on that. The truth is I don't know. I started thinking yes, FPS games are really dangerous. Then I thought its a little silly and an overreaction. But truth be told, I don't know how dangerous it is for the human psyche. It just as stupid for me to be certain that it will cause psychos as for other to be certain that it wont cause psychos. I know that the human mind is way more complex than what people tend to think it is. I'm old enough to have done some really stupid things on the premise that I could handle it.

So yeah, I don't know. But I do know that games are converging on reality. The graphics keep getting better and more realistic. Probably 3d stuff will be the norm. Then what? Virtual feeling, etc. These issues that seem silly don't seem silly anymore when you consider how fragile people are. Game makers don't seem to put alot of thought into that. They put their thought into what games make the most money. Unfortunately, it isn't the "see how many people you can help" game that sells, its the "see how many people you can kill" game.

That said, ask me again tomorrow and I'll give you a different answer.

[soul searching]

Originally posted by TampaDeveloper:
Yep, I totally waffled on that. The truth is I don't know. ...

This must be a first around here. You could have just danced around what Myrkridia pointed out, but you didn't. You even admitted that you don't know. Takes great cajones to do that. Good job

[Hash]

i think we have deviated from the original theme. There is NO connection with videogames. The story goes like this:

There is a big [scary or at least not very pleasant] picture of a man, with a big knife and it scares a 4-year old boy, who has to stare at it every time he has to ride a bus. He finds it uncomfortable.

I think it is very natural and there is no reasons to be surprised.

[mrfrost]

Originally posted by Myrkridia:


And if I ever have children, I intend to right beside them when they pop off their first virtual 9 mm round into the head of an enemy soldier, so I can say "Oh right in the face! Nice shooting Tristan!"

You're going to name one of your kids Tristan? ???

[Randman]

Actually I think it's the mum that's screwed in the head. If she was a better parent, then she'd talk to the kid and work through his fears (if he actually had them).
If it's just the mother being a ninny and transferring her own twisted perceptions on the kid and making noise, someone should slap her.

That said, it must be a pretty safe line. I would think that some of the people on the line (or especially hanging at the entrance/exists) would be far more scarier than a PoP.

Heaven forbid, an advert for Alien vs Predator or LOTR on dvd are ever shown.

[ambush]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Is that you John Wayne... is this me?