[voodoo]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Personally, I think Microsoft is the far lesser evil.

Name one example in the past where Microsoft is the lesser of any two evils. I can't think of any.

V

[Eug]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I was referring to the HDi interactive menu system pushed by MS on HD-DVD.

HDi Interactive Format - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

V

Ironically, Disney helped develop HDi, but now is exclusively Blu-ray (partially because of "promotional considerations").

----

Blu-ray 2-for-1 sale beats Transformers HD DVD this week - 51 : 49

Home Media Magazine is reporting a narrow Blu-ray disc sales victory for the week ending Oct 21, disputing Paramount's previously released sales numbers for HD DVD edition of 'The Transformers.'

According to the just-published report, Blu-ray won the week by a thin margin that amounts to 51% of the high-def discs sold, versus 49% for HD DVD.

Paramount issued a press release projecting record-breaking first-week sales of 190,000 units. Home Media Magazine disputes Paramount's numbers, estimating the actual number of units that sold through to consumers as closer to 115,000.

Some have theorized that Blu-ray's strong showing for the week in the face of such strong sales for 'The Transformers' is attributable in part to a series of "buy one get one free" offers extended by Disney at such leading retailers as Best Buy, Circuit City and Amazon.

[*TL]

Even with it's biggest title ever, HD DVD can't top Blu-ray in disc sales for even a week.

[Eug]

Is there an echo (with a 30 minute delay) in here?

[*TL]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Is there an echo (with a 30 minute delay) in here?

Nope, just a browser window that hadn't updated....

[jokell82]

That difference in disc sales is a bit fishy to me. But overall a good week!

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by *TL 

Even with it's biggest title ever, HD DVD can't top Blu-ray in disc sales for even a week.

I know that's rough. Anyway, I hope spiderman 3 doesn't sell better as that movie seriously sucked.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I know that's rough. Anyway, I hope spiderman 3 doesn't sell better as that movie seriously sucked.

I bet the Trilogy will be a big seller. And despite sucking, 3 made a hell of a lot of money in the theaters, so it may be a big seller too.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Name one example in the past where Microsoft is the lesser of any two evils. I can't think of any.

V

Huh? I don't think I need to cite historical precedent. As far as the format war goes, Microsoft has an interest in making HD-DVD work well on the PC, while Sony has no such interest. (For example... managed copy on Bluray was not part of the 1.0 spec..)

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Huh? I don't think I need to cite historical precedent.

Esp when not relevent. I think you were referring to this specific instance. But then again I could be wrong.

As far as the format war goes, Microsoft has an interest in making HD-DVD work well on the PC, while Sony has no such interest. (For example... managed copy on Bluray was not part of the 1.0 spec..)

MS has an interest in making all their software work on anything. If they could sell Windows for toaster ovens they would.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Esp when not relevent. I think you were referring to this specific instance. But then again I could be wrong.

MS has an interest in making all their software work on anything. If they could sell Windows for toaster ovens they would.

Indeed, and when it comes to the HD optical formats, that's good.

Sony has a history of making seriously terrible PC software.

Originally Posted by jokell82 

I bet the Trilogy will be a big seller. And despite sucking, 3 made a hell of a lot of money in the theaters, so it may be a big seller too.

Yes, I think 3 sucked too, but you're right. It did make a lot of money, and furthermore, it got similar critical reviews to Transformers.

In truth, I think the story for Transformers also sucked, but I found it didn't matter, partially because the movie didn't actually take itself seriously IMO, and it's superfun ride.

OTOH, SM3 took itself far too seriously and while it may have impressed certain critics in its goal, I think it just failed miserably to execute as a popcorn flick. That said, my opinion doesn't really matter that much. Overall it got OK reviews and it made a crapload of cash.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Eug 

It would seem Circuit City is paying attention. CC now has it for $197.99.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Huh? I don't think I need to cite historical precedent.

That would be the only thing you could do to help your argument that Microsoft *can* be the lesser of two evils.

Originally Posted by goMac 

As far as the format war goes, Microsoft has an interest in making HD-DVD work well on the PC, while Sony has no such interest. (For example... managed copy on Bluray was not part of the 1.0 spec..)

Microsoft has in interest in making HD-DVD work well on Windows with their particular DRM so Microsoft can be in control of moving media.

Don't confuse the format with the content.

I couldn't care less which format wins. They're both passable.

I care more which entity will control the DRM scheme, because that's the reason there is a format war. Not because of the format. Because of the DRM.

V

[jokell82]

And Sony has an even higher interest in BD because they would then be the content owners and the hardware suppliers. They would own every link in the chain. That's a much scarier thought than Microsoft winning IMO.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

And Sony has an even higher interest in BD because they would then be the content owners and the hardware suppliers. They would own every link in the chain. That's a much scarier thought than Microsoft winning IMO.

Not to me. Microsoft is an entity to use and discard when their resources no longer benefit.

They are not to be given any chance of monopoly status. It is in their nature to abuse it.

V

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Not to me. Microsoft is an entity to use and discard when their resources no longer benefit.

They are not to be given any chance of monopoly status. It is in their nature to abuse it.

V

That's every company ever, though. Microsoft has less of a stake in entertainment to even be considered a threat for a monopoly.

Sony, on the other hand...

[goMac]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Not to me. Microsoft is an entity to use and discard when their resources no longer benefit.

They are not to be given any chance of monopoly status. It is in their nature to abuse it.

V

I think both companies are pretty evil. However, Microsofts goal is to force me to buy a computer. Sony's goal is to force me to buy a PS3.

Guess who's scheme I like better?

[icruise]

How are you forced to buy a PS3 if Blu-ray wins?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Eug 

What does that have to do with anything? We already know that historically, the Japanese market often doesn't follow the market elsewhere.

The prime example of this is beta. Beta did well in in Japan, but VHS dominated elsewhere. Beta was Sony, and VHS was JVC, and they're both Japanese companies.

And, don't forget Laserdisc.

I love my Pioneer Elite CLD-97, but the format never really did catch on anywhere except Japan.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by icruise 

How are you forced to buy a PS3 is Blu-ray wins?

Because, following through with what's been said, if Microsoft won and HD-DVD gained control of the marketplace, Microsoft's evil scheme would be to force me to be part of their ecosystem, which is the computer ecosystem. Sony would force me into the PS3 ecosystem. I would rather side with Microsoft because I know at least they will be for making HD-DVD work well with computers (and this is why HD-DVD has managed copy). Sony is for pushing PS3's with Bluray.

[icruise]

You've got it exactly backwards. Sony's "master plan" is not to get everyone to own PS3s. The PS3 is only being used as a vehicle for the promotion of Blu-ray. Once stand-alones get down in price, Blu-ray on the PS3 will be no more relevant than DVD on the PS2 was after the first year or two.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

You've got it exactly backwards. Sony's "master plan" is not to get everyone to own PS3s. The PS3 is only being used as a vehicle for the promotion of Blu-ray. Once stand-alones get down in price, Blu-ray on the PS3 will be no more relevant than DVD on the PS2 was after the first year or two.

I agree.

I will note though that DVD was already firmly established before the PS2 even came out (at least in North America). While I believe both helped each other, I think that DVD helped the PS2 much more than the PS2 helped DVD (at least in North America).

In contrast, the PS3 is of key importance for Blu-ray.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Because, following through with what's been said, if Microsoft won and HD-DVD gained control of the marketplace, Microsoft's evil scheme would be to force me to be part of their ecosystem, which is the computer ecosystem.

What *are* you talking about? Because it sure isn't what I was talking about or even insinuated. Read, comprehend, post.

Microsoft has no interest in selling you a computer, BTW. They want you to buy a Windows licence. What you do with it is largely irrelevant to MS.

This is no 'ecosystem' battle. There is no hidden war between 'computers' and 'consoles'. WTF?!

This is only about Microsoft's latest attempt to gain a foothold in HD media. This isn't the first time and probably not the last.

I for one won't help them, but the fact is if HD-DVD 'wins' somehow it will result in a tentative and rather lame foothold, but a foothold none-the-less. Microsoft is so hopeless in these kinds of battles that even Apple - a minor player in the computer 'ecosystem' could kill their WMA as a viable commercial music container and DRM management and managed to keep QuickTime alive against Microsoft's best efforts to kill it at the same time.

It doesn't matter one squat which format 'wins' in the end to consumers. We'll always pay some corporation for the privilage to 'own' a movie on a plastic disc. I just personally hate Microsoft and their pathetic attempts of survival in the next decade that I'd really prefer to see them fail here. I'm confident they will. One way or another.

V

[jokell82]

The funny thing is, none of that changes if Blu-Ray wins.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

The funny thing is, none of that changes if Blu-Ray wins.

Exactly. No change is preferable to Microsoft.

V

[thetman]

in case anyone cares, leopard now reads my hd-dvds from 360 hd-dvd drive but of course dvd player wont play them.

[icruise]

It didn't do that before?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

That would be the only thing you could do to help your argument that Microsoft *can* be the lesser of two evils.

Again he was talking within this context. I don't which part of that you seem to be failing to grasp.
In this context, MS IS the lesser of the two evils. In other things they may not be. MS is willing to support either format. Sony wants a monopoly and will only support it's own. (Until it's defeated, and they start making VCR players and ta.. er I mean HD players and media)

Just like every other time they have pushed their own proprietary format. History does repeat itself.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

It didn't do that before?

It did not. The Xbox 360 HD DVD drive would be recognized in Tiger, but Tiger didn't natively understand the disk format for commercial HD DVDs. You could see DVDs and such in the drive, but it would simply choke on HD DVDs.

Leopard adds the ability to read the newer HD DVD (and Blu-ray) UDF disc format used on commercial discs. However, DVD Player.app still can't play commercial discs from either format. (DVD Player.app can play some non-DRM'd HD DVDs though, but it could already do this in Tiger. DVD Player.app has no support at all for Blu-ray however.)

[jokell82]

Just watched Transformers and am very happy I didn't spend more than $5 on it. It looks and sounds great, but what a stupid movie.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Again he was talking within this context. I don't which part of that you seem to be failing to grasp.
In this context, MS IS the lesser of the two evils. In other things they may not be. MS is willing to support either format. Sony wants a monopoly and will only support it's own. (Until it's defeated, and they start making VCR players and ta.. er I mean HD players and media)

Just like every other time they have pushed their own proprietary format. History does repeat itself.

We've been through this before, but how is Blu-ray more proprietary than HD-DVD? If Sony wanted to be the only BR manufacturer, or if BR only worked on Sony products, then it would be proprietary. How is Sony's position with BR different from Toshiba's with HD-DVD? I don't think you even know. A lot of people's arguments are simply knee-jerk reactions to what they think they know about Sony.

[pooka]

Not mine. My arguments are based on Sony's documented history of draconian format controls and abuse.

[icruise]

Can you explain what you mean (and why it is worse than Microsoft's own history of anti-competitive behavior)?

[Eug]

Blu-ray is not more proprietary than HD DVD. IMO, they're equality proprietary.

IMO Blu-ray has the disc space advantage, but HD DVD has the real-world advantage of lower implementation costs (and thus lower retail cost), as well as the real-world advantage of having superior overall specifications in even the cheapest entry-level HD DVD players as compared to Blu-ray. (ie. No crappy 1.0 profile-like HD DVD players exist.)

[icruise]

I think you can make a case for the technical advantages of both formats, or the advantages one might have over the other in terms of studio support. It's when people start saying that one format or the other has the moral high ground, or that Blu-ray is somehow analogous to, say, UMD movies (which are proprietary, and not a very good idea either) that things get questionable IMHO.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by icruise 

You've got it exactly backwards. Sony's "master plan" is not to get everyone to own PS3s. The PS3 is only being used as a vehicle for the promotion of Blu-ray. Once stand-alones get down in price, Blu-ray on the PS3 will be no more relevant than DVD on the PS2 was after the first year or two.

Sure, but you have to admit Sony's end goal is to get you to buy a bunch of electronics for your TV, one of their TV's, one of their speaker systems, etc... Sony certainly wants you to buy one of their standalones, if not the PS3.

I would rather have a format designed by someone that doesn't care what AV hardware I use or where I should be playing the movie. Sony has a vested interest in making me use Sony gear, and I don't like that.

[icruise]

So I assume you're not a Mac user then... After all, Apple has a vested interest in getting you to buy their hardware.

Edit: Anyway, my point is that I don't see how Toshiba and Sony are different in this respect. They're both in almost identical positions with regard to the formats that they're backing.

[jokell82]

The biggest difference is that since Toshiba doesn't own a movie studio, they aren't as concerned with all the DRM nonsense - they do enough to satisfy the studios but don't go overboard. Sony, on the other hand, has a vested interest in completely locking down everything that touches a Blu-Ray disc. They have content that needs protecting. They'll be the ones that push disabling unauthorized hardware or requiring certain connections to view content. It may not be happening right now, but if Sony wins it's a real possibility.

[Eug]

Toshiba HD DVD player for $169.95 at Sears on Black Friday

I don't know which model though. I'm guessing the A2.

EDIT:

Nope. It's the A3.

[jokell82]

And it comes with 2 movies in the box. That's a crazy deal!

[Eug]

This is becoming a major blitz.

Costco has the HD-D2 (which is Costco's version of the A2) for $199, but with a free HDMI cable in the box.

Amazon has the HD-A2 for $197.99, with free shipping.

[Chongo]

CC does as well. I just got $62 back from BB on their price match

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

The biggest difference is that since Toshiba doesn't own a movie studio, they aren't as concerned with all the DRM nonsense - they do enough to satisfy the studios but don't go overboard. Sony, on the other hand, has a vested interest in completely locking down everything that touches a Blu-Ray disc. They have content that needs protecting. They'll be the ones that push disabling unauthorized hardware or requiring certain connections to view content. It may not be happening right now, but if Sony wins it's a real possibility.

The DRM is there because of the Studios. For example, New Line, they are slow to release films on HD-DVD due to region coding (DRM). If the players have no DRM they will get no studio support. DRM exists for the studios not the hardware makers. If we had hardware free DRM, like we would all want, Toshiba, Apple Microsoft would now be offering it. The problem is you'd have a DRM free device with no support from any studios and a company going under because they can't make any money off it.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

The DRM is there because of the Studios. For example, New Line, they are slow to release films on HD-DVD due to region coding (DRM). If the players have no DRM they will get no studio support. DRM exists for the studios not the hardware makers. If we had hardware free DRM, like we would all want, Toshiba, Apple Microsoft would now be offering it. The problem is you'd have a DRM free device with no support from any studios and a company going under because they can't make any money off it.

That's what I said - Toshiba has enough DRM to satisfy the studios. But Sony *IS* a studio, so they'll go overboard with the DRM seriously limiting consumer rights all to "protect" their content.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

That's what I said - Toshiba has enough DRM to satisfy the studios. But Sony *IS* a studio, so they'll go overboard with the DRM seriously limiting consumer rights all to "protect" their content.

While amusingly paranoid of you, Sony isn't all that monolithic.

They're not above suing themselves: Sony vs. Sony

“Historically, this has not been a tightly-linked organization, and they have had rather autonomous business units, says Wharton management professor Daniel Levinthal. “My sense is, there’s a bit of a North America/Japan split that corresponds to the content and hardware pieces of their business.”

V

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

That's what I said - Toshiba has enough DRM to satisfy the studios. But Sony *IS* a studio, so they'll go overboard with the DRM seriously limiting consumer rights all to "protect" their content.

Fox is the one that wanted the heaviest DRM, actually. Thats why they went dormant for so long until it was ready. Not saying Sony didn't, I have no idea. I DO know Sony isn't the only one to blame in this. You might want to get more hands to point fingers at a few companies.

[pooka]

Ahem....

ARccOS Protection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Before I get accused of being a pirate...again... Please note it prevented several hardware players from working properly (ie: my Xbox).

Sony is just about the only studio to go above and beyond the call of dicktitude.

[exca1ibur]

Fox went on a 6 mo vacation, and Disney got slow on Bluray until better protection was included, BD+ So add in two more fingers. New Line has an issue with region coding. Bottom line... if the demand by the studios weren't there, we'd live in a DRM free world. We all agree that will NEVER happen.

[jokell82]

Well I wonder what Fox and Disney will do now that BD+ is cracked:
SlySoft claims to have cracked BD+, naysayers fall quiet - Engadget HD

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Eug 

It did not. The Xbox 360 HD DVD drive would be recognized in Tiger, but Tiger didn't natively understand the disk format for commercial HD DVDs. You could see DVDs and such in the drive, but it would simply choke on HD DVDs.

Leopard adds the ability to read the newer HD DVD (and Blu-ray) UDF disc format used on commercial discs. However, DVD Player.app still can't play commercial discs from either format. (DVD Player.app can play some non-DRM'd HD DVDs though, but it could already do this in Tiger. DVD Player.app has no support at all for Blu-ray however.)

Even if that last sentence of yours is wrong (Unprotected non-commercial content in the right format can be played back from Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs) I have been telling you the rest of that for months back when I was breaking my awesome NDA.