[siliconwarrior]

Well Kate, if the vast majority don't use or have never heard of something, it MUST be worthless.





















Wait a minute - aren't you on a Mac?

[Dave Brasgalla]

Originally posted by Kate:
Why didn't Apple simply announce a new Finder instead of coming up with a rehashed copy of not exactly genuine ideas? What would be the reaction if Apple decided to redo Aqua and imitate one of the popular GUIs found around here? Is this discussion not a bit too far on the Apple-is-always-doing-right side? I'm not sure it is, I'm not sure it's not.

I cannot get rid of the feeling my favourite company showed an unbecoming face. Could someone please convince me the opposite is true? Pretty please?

Any third-party developer who extends the functionality of the OS has to be on the lookout for something like this. Yes, Apple has a long history of doing this, which makes it even less surprising - at least to developers who have been paying attention. Now, if Konfabulator's revenue model had been reversed - give the engine away for free and charge for great widgets - they'd be fine. Just port the graphics.

By the way, I don't see anyone crying tears for NetNewsWire... but maybe that's in a different forum...

[rhythmicmoose]

Originally posted by optimus_prime:
anybody check the stock ticker on dashboard?
AAPL + 7.36 to 42.05
MSFT - 1.34 to 18.23

Even better, the calculator in the example video reads "1.337".

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Dave Brasgalla:
Any third-party developer who extends the functionality of the OS has to be on the lookout for something like this. Yes, Apple has a long history of doing this, which makes it even less surprising - at least to developers who have been paying attention. Now, if Konfabulator's revenue model had been reversed - give the engine away for free and charge for great widgets - they'd be fine. Just port the graphics.

By the way, I don't see anyone crying tears for NetNewsWire... but maybe that's in a different forum...

The NetNewsWire creators didn't complain about Safari's RSS support...in fact, they welcomed it. NetNewsWire serves a more advanced purpose than Safari will, just as Transmit and other FTP clients serve more advanced purposes than Finder's build-in read-only FTP. The people who will use Safari instead of NetNewsWire are the same people who wouldn't have bought NetNewsWire anyway.

Your point about Konfabulator's revenue model is a great one. It's not too late for them to change it

[Dragon T]

When I started this thread, I didn't imagine it would go in this direction at all.
(ok, well maybe I suspected it) =) LOL

When OSX came out, didn't we all go "this is really cool!... but wouldn't it be better with this feature as well?"
Lots of cool features were added... but many of our favorite features were left out.

So... some of the more skilled of us got creative and found ways to add the wanted features.
The add-on extras were created because it was something that was wanted in the system, but had been left out.
When an add-on is created and used, it is our way of saying to Apple "Hey, we want this feature in the OS!"

So... when Apple take the idea from an add-on and include it in the OS... it is their way of saying "Point taken, we should have included that." or "What a brilliant idea, that's worthy of including."

If the add-on designer/creator owned the idea, then Apple could only include it with the owners permission. In which case the creators would have full pockets and a smile.
If the add-on designer/creator didn't own it... they could still take it as a pat on the back.

I can't help thinking, (and I'm sure Arlo must be as well) if they copy Konfabulator, why didn't they copy Kaleidoscope?!!!

(side note: does Arlo like long names that start with K?)

[goMac]

They did. IIRC Arlo was hired by Apple and wrote the theme implementation on Mac OS 8.5. There was some scuffle were he was kicked out for NDA issues, which is why themes on Mac OS 8.5 died.

You might be able to google it.

[Dragon T]

This makes interesting reading:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06..._konfabulator/

[Anubis IV]

Originally posted by cube3:
In 2 years when OS X Puma comes

Just something I thought was kinda funny since Puma already came and went. I always forget though...was Puma 10.1 and Cheetah 10.0, or was it the other way around?

Anyway, as for my opinion (since it seems that's what everyone is offering up here), I think Apple IS directly ripping off Konfabulator, and honestly, it upsets me, but in the end it will have no effect on whether or not I purchase Konfab, Tiger, or any other software. When and if I upgrade to Tiger (I'm still not sold on upgrading to Tiger like I was sold on upgrading to Panther) I'll make my decision then on whether or not to use Konfab, Dashboard, or some other similar product, since I'll choose to use whichever one suits my needs the best. If Apple thinks they can rip off another product and do it better, it certainly doesn't hurt me in the end since it helps out the end user, but I do find it reprehensible nonetheless since it's immoral and bad business practice to rip off competitors (or in this case supporters) for your own good. In the end, I'm looking for whatever application, dockling, widget, or whatever works best for me, and if it's Apple's so be it. I don't like what they're doing, but there's nothing I can do about it, so I'll just go ahead and naively benefit from their disgusting display of a lack of ingenuity (at least in regards to this feature).

[cube3]

10.1

was supposed to be tongue in cheek :/

[Anubis IV]

Guess I missed I missed it...thought you were trying to be serious, so I wasn't looking for a joke in the midst of your post. Sorry about that.

[superfula]

So let me get this straight. Konfab ripped off Stardock's DesktopX, who got the idea from somewhere else. Now Apple brings in similar technology to Konfab, DesktopX and wherever else, and people are jumping on Apple's back about this? Konfab did the EXACT same thing with DesktopX. Konfab "stole" the idea, and now they are crying foul because someone else "stole" the idea they "stole"? I'm thinking the Konfab people are just jealous because Apple use the already-in-use idea, and made it better.


A bit off-topic....but I think Tiger looks like a much better release than what Panther gave us. IMO of course.

[cube3]

Originally posted by Anubis IV:
Guess I missed I missed it...thought you were trying to be serious, so I wasn't looking for a joke in the midst of your post. Sorry about that.

np I am always joking

[Chris O'Brien]

Originally posted by goMac:
Here's my rundown of stuff Tiger has picked up from Longhorn:

Longhorn sidebar/clock widget:



<snip>

Um, that clock looks a lot like the clock available with Panther and Jaguar (and before?) - although, admittedly, it does look a bit nicer. Seems like Microsoft picked it up from OS X, not the other way round.

[maziu]

Originally posted by Black Book:
Um, that clock looks a lot like the clock available with Panther and Jaguar (and before?) - although, admittedly, it does look a bit nicer. Seems like Microsoft picked it up from OS X, not the other way round.

That clock looks a lot like the clock on my wall, too. Maybe they've both been to my house!

[Jerome_69]

Apparently Dashboard is much more than K.
Look at what David Hyatt say in his blog

[WICKEDfour]

Originally posted by Jerome_69:
Apparently Dashboard is much more than K.
Look at what David Hyatt say in his blog

Indeed. The fact that Dashboard widgets are HTML/CSS/JavaScript is enough reason alone to make me strongly consider making Dashboard widgets; in contrast, I wouldn't even have considered trying to make K widgets. This difference is sure to give Dashboard another one up on Konfabulator.

[methnen]

I have to admit after reading Hyatt's blog I was felling less sorry for the Konfabulator guys.

Dashboard, if anything, sounds more like a more elegant version of Microsoft's active desktop rather than a complete copy of Konfabulator. And the fact that I, a lowly web artist, can conceivably make widgets now is pretty cool.

Jamie

[bluevertical]

yeah. thats a great article. i too am glad dashboard opens itself up to many more designers with it's use of standard 'web' technologies...
good days to come.
peace.
bv.

[Hobeaux]

interesting Konfabulator vs. Dashboard article (has this been mentioned already?)

http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/da...s_konfabulator

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally posted by Hobeaux:
interesting Konfabulator vs. Dashboard article (has this been mentioned already?)

http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/da...s_konfabulator

Yea, that should shut up Arlo and those who feel sorry for him. GREAT article.

[gbafan]

Originally posted by Hobeaux:
interesting Konfabulator vs. Dashboard article (has this been mentioned already?)

http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/da...s_konfabulator

I think my favorite part of this article was the discussion about how bloated K really is. I really really wanted to like K because of the coolness factor but the fact that each widget takes up it's own memory footprint was the deciding factor for me to stop using it.

I'm hopefully Dashboard won't have this memory overheard issue and if not, I look forward to using it.

[Anderton]

So..

Konf: Implented opensource Javascript engine, runs like a platform on the host computer, XML for making widgets.

Dashboard: Webkit (Quicktime, Java, Javascript, CSS, HTML, Flash, Shockwave, Apple script etc etc). For more advanced "gadgets" use Cocoa.

Well...

Another link: http://www.erikveland.com/arkiv/000743.php

[Kate]

Maybe this clears it up a bit:

"I just want to take a moment to clear some stuff up.

A lot of places have been writing up the Konfabulator versus Dashboard story, and a lot of them are taking choice sound bites from interviews and using them to make me sound like I've... well... lost my mind.

First off, I was never fired from Apple. The group I worked for was laid off and I was given a chance to go work somewhere else inside Apple. I had been there for quite some time and was ready to move on, so I took a voluntary layoff package. It was my choice to leave.

Next, we've never said the word widget was our creation. The word widget has been around forever and then some, but what we did do is coin it as a term for a small user created application that was specific in purpose. It's our document type, and we do feel it was uncouth of Apple to co-opt it. Also note that I make a habit of capitalizing it in the context of a Konfabulator Widget as I feel that it's always been a proper noun in this usage.

Regarding the conspiracy theory about Konspos� and prior knowledge of Dashboard, here's the scoop. We knew Dashboard was coming, and we'd been told by *many* people that it was being developed as a "Konfabulator Killer". We never knew the specifics of it other than it was rumored to be the exact same thing as Konfabulator integrated at the system level. We didn't know that it was going to be touted as part of Expos�, and we didn't know that their format was going to be closer to a web page than a structured XML file.

As for Apple having Dashboard technology in Copland or Mac OS 9, they didn't. My idea for Konfabulator was born from wanting to have a really simple run-time environment for people to develop small specialized applications that could look and behave however they wanted. The key point being that it is up to the user to make the cool Widgets. The user would know what they needed, and the user could then create that. The concept had nothing in the slightest to do with Desk Accessories, and it had absolutely nothing to do with Active Desktop. It was about empowering the user to make their own little apps that did what they wanted.

But what about Desktop X, you ask? I have to be honest, as far as I'm aware Desktop X wasn't anything like Konfabulator until after Konfabulator came out. During development someone pointed us at their site, and all I saw was an app that let you run applets in a controlled windowed environment. Heck, even after we released Konfabulator 1.0 there was an article on their site talking about how their app needed to be more like Konfabulator because we had "gotten it right".

Mind you, I've never said we were the first to introduce the concept of little apps running on your desktop that are informative rather than functional, what I have said is that we were the first to come up with a run-time environment closely integrated into the system where you could build your own little apps with no prior knowledge of a complicated programming language.

I'm truly and deeply impressed by the support our customers have shown us the last few days, and I'm glad we have such an incredible user base.

We have no plans to stop working on Konfabulator, we have no plans to abandon the platform, but what we do plan to do is strengthen Konfabulator's feature set, continue to work toward our cross-platform solution, and develop unique software that people can't live without.

Cheers,

Arlo Rose"

[Kate]

Originally posted by siliconwarrior:
Well Kate, if the vast majority don't use or have never heard of something, it MUST be worthless.

Wait a minute - aren't you on a Mac?

I am on a Mac, right, and I do not quite understand why you put a false quote into my mouth? I am also puzzled about that type of logic you were using to create that sentence.

There is no logical type of relation between "worth" and "minority usage" in that context and sure not one that could be called a conclusion, however you seem to propose that there is one of that kind.

You seem to try to show a false logic in one of my statements by inventing a statement , that you want to be seen as an original quote, that shows such ill logic.

You're poking fun on me

[olorin15]

Originally posted by Kate:
The word widget has been around forever and then some, but what we did do is coin it as a term for a small user created application that was specific in purpose. It's our document type, and we do feel it was uncouth of Apple to co-opt it.

I more or less agree with everything, except for this claim ...
Sounds to me like he is coining the dictionary definition of the word. What if he called them "Tools", would he then have the right to the word "Tool" as well? Sounds fishy ...