[sek929]

Originally Posted by peeb 

I love these conversations.

I miss abe...

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by sek929 

That's actually NOT AT ALL what I was saying. I was agreeing with you that 90% of heavy vehicle owners don't need them. I was pointing out what kind of people do actually need them, people like me.

I wonder how quick the Big Three would change their bribing/lobbying for SUVs if States started requiring proof of employment for "work" vehicles under a certain MPG. If you want a huge traditional diesel or gasoline pickup or SUV that only gets 12 MPG, you have to be employed in construction, forestry, custodial, agriculture, or related field that actually requires that kind of vehicle. Otherwise, you need to pay a tax to offset the cost of cleaning up after you.

Outside of the United States, you can get reasonably efficient AWD/4WD vehicles. Wouldn't surprise me if you could get them in the States as well, but I haven't seen any.

[subego]

Originally Posted by sek929 

I miss abe...

If you're serious, I'm with you. If you ain't, that's a cheap shot.

[subego]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I wonder how quick the Big Three would change their bribing/lobbying for SUVs if States started requiring proof of employment for "work" vehicles under a certain MPG.

I think you have the cart before the horse there.

[peeb]

Ole pigeon, I think that simply paying for ALL road transport related costs (construction, policing, maintenance, eminent domain, environmental cleanup, medical care from pollution and road accidents etc etc) from gas taxes only would help a lot. It would certainly help people to understand the true costs of roads.

[sek929]

Have you seen Ford Explorers recently? Light Truck my ass!

My Sonoma is a light truck, and still averages 17MPG. If I worked at a desk my CAR would get 30+mpg.

What peeves me is the lack of viable Diesel options on the monstrous SUVs. Not only will it give you ungodly amounts of torque, but it gets better MPG than a big V8 or V10...which is another point of mine... V10, are you ****ing retarded? Whoever owns a V10 truck might as well go shoot themselves right now for not buying a diesel. Less torque and a MPG that would make a H2 owner wince.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by subego 

If you're serious, I'm with you. If you ain't, that's a cheap shot.

I've never seen eye to eye with Abe on, well, just about everything...but I would trade peeb out for him any day of the week. At least you could disagree with Abe on the grounds of a solid argument, with peeb I'd just rather he not respond to anything.

[peeb]

Because you get smacked down every time you post nonsense? If you can't take the heat, stop posting before you've thought things through.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by sek929 

At least you could disagree with Abe on the grounds of a solid argument, with peeb I'd just rather he not respond to anything.

Did you miss the latter part of abe's career where he switched to mocking people and dodging points rather than addressing them?

Edit: peeb's post above is a fantastic impression of abe's posts in the twilight of his PL career (sans winky).

[sek929]

See what I mean? Not only have I not said anything that has even been remotely 'smacked down,' I was actually agreeing with this dolt and he still attacks me.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Did you miss the latter part of abe's career where he switched to mocking people and dodging points rather than addressing them?

He's always been condescending and artful at the dodge. I didn't say I love Abe, but I'd rather have him in here than peeb.

[peeb]

I'm sorry Sek, I was thinking of this post, most recently, where you responded to my satire of people jumping to explain why they needed a huge truck with an explanation of why you need a huge truck. It made me laugh.

Originally Posted by sek929 

That's actually NOT AT ALL what I was saying.... I was pointing out what kind of people do actually need them, people like me.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by sek929 

He's always been condescending and artful at the dodge. I didn't say I love Abe, but I'd rather have him in here than peeb.

And while I didn't agree with it, it was a playful part of his style early on, but at the end, it seemed like he was doing it to purposefully spite and stymie anyone who was trying to poke holes in his (purposely) ridiculous logic.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by peeb 

I'm sorry Sek, I was thinking of this post, most recently, where you responded to my satire of people jumping to explain why they needed a huge truck with an explanation of why you need a huge truck. It made me laugh.

So you just skipped over the part that was relevant to your previous statements?

I knew If I came in here talking about how I like to use my 4x4 somebody would accuse me of not needing it. Instead we got this ridiculous back-and-forth.

[G Barnett]

Soooo, out of curiosity, why aren't folks who want dimmable fixtures looking into low-power LED bulbs instead of fluorescents? They've typically got better & whiter light, should be easier to dim, and are far longer-lasting than fluorescents. Even better, they don't flicker at that damnable 60hz (which I can see in my peripheral vision -- gives me headaches at times).

[peeb]

My point was that in any discussion of things that we can do as a society to reduce emissions, someone will leap in and say "But I can't do that!". You were right on cue.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by G Barnett 

Soooo, out of curiosity, why aren't folks who want dimmable fixtures looking into low-power LED bulbs instead of fluorescents? They've typically got better & whiter light, should be easier to dim, and are far longer-lasting than fluorescents. Even better, they don't flicker at that damnable 60hz (which I can see in my peripheral vision -- gives me headaches at times).

I've actually tried LEDs, and the light quality just isn't there yet. Brightness and directionality are both big problems. I use them for small tasks like nightlights on stairs where light quality is not important, but not for room lighting.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Outside of the United States, you can get reasonably efficient AWD/4WD vehicles. Wouldn't surprise me if you could get them in the States as well, but I haven't seen any.

Who makes a reasonably efficient AWD/4WD?

[sek929]

Originally Posted by G Barnett 

Soooo, out of curiosity, why aren't folks who want dimmable fixtures looking into low-power LED bulbs instead of fluorescents?

The enormous cost increase is my first guess.

[peeb]

Has anyone here seen an LED with comparable light quality to a fluorescent or incandescent for room lighting?

[subego]

Originally Posted by sek929 

I've never seen eye to eye with Abe on, well, just about everything...but I would trade peeb out for him any day of the week. At least you could disagree with Abe on the grounds of a solid argument, with peeb I'd just rather he not respond to anything.

While there's still room for improvement (as I imagine there is with everyone), I'd say peeb is at least 20 times better than he started out. He's very sharp, but needed to be coaxed away from using the blade on people rather than ideas. As I said, still room for improvement, but he clearly seems to have gotten the message, and is making adjustments as fast as someone who is as pissed-off as he is (in a political sense) can.

Not to take anything away from peeb, but Abe is truly special. I don't agree with him either, but (and I tried to come up with another word) he's the most honest person here.

What I mean by that is he's the only one here who really admits how scared he is, rather than cover it up with some destructive coping mechanism created to show the world how not scared he is, be that machismo, belligerence, denial, humor or what have you.

I learned more about the people I disagree with from him than anyone else, because he was the only one who admitted how he really felt, warts and all.

Just how straight of a shooter he is I think it puts everyone here to shame, myself included. This forum has suffered from his absence.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Did you miss the latter part of abe's career where he switched to mocking people

Considering how often he was mocked, switching to this in the twilight of his career sounds like restraint to me.

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

and dodging points rather than addressing them?

I prefer a dodge (which coming from him always struck me as a tacit admission of defeat anyways) to the ridiculous games of Twister these sorts of things often become.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by subego 

Considering how often he was mocked, switching to this in the twilight of his career sounds like restraint to me.

Sure, he was mocked endlessly, but I found it hypocritical that he mocked people that were trying to continue the debate.

Originally Posted by subego 

I prefer a dodge (which coming from him always struck me as a tacit admission of defeat anyways) to the ridiculous games of Twister these sorts of things often become.

I wouldn't consider that very honest. I also don't believe many of the positions he took up were honest. My biggest problem with abe was much of what he did was a facade.

Honestly, his endless dodging turned his threads into games of twister. It was like cutting off a lizard's tail.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Who makes a reasonably efficient AWD/4WD?

Subaru, Mercedes, Volvo, and Audi to name a few. If you get a diesel Volvo, you can push almost 55 MPG (and that's US MPG, not UK) highway, 37 MPG city. It has AWD and looks pretty slick.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Because you get smacked down every time you post nonsense? If you can't take the heat, stop posting before you've thought things through.

Have you taken me off ignore yet from the time I smacked you down?

[subego]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

I wouldn't consider that very honest. I also don't believe many of the positions he took up were honest. My biggest problem with abe was much of what he did was a facade.

Well, I did have to specify the honest, which is not necessarily the strongest praise.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that he had fake positions, though.

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Honestly, his endless dodging turned his threads into games of twister. It was like cutting off a lizard's tail.

Are you sure this isn't more an issue of unrealistic expectations on your part?

If you're aware of his propensity to dodge, and he starts dodging, what's the point of chasing him after you've had your say? The only thing I can think of is an assumption that he'll all of the sudden decide not to dodge.

If he does, we can be pleasantly surprised by it, but until that point...

[subego]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Sure, he was mocked endlessly, but I found it hypocritical that he mocked people that were trying to continue the debate.

This is factually correct, but this makes it look like it's the problem when it's only a symptom.

He doesn't like to admit he's wrong. Of course, no one does, but some can deal with it better than others. Likewise, especially for him, this isn't a good environment for people to work on overcoming that problem. The hypocrisy flows out of that, rather than being the problem itself.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by sek929 

... when we get the cheapest fuel in the world?

Not true.

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Not true.

What about "in the West"?

[ebuddy]

Yay. Our gas is cheaper than in Bulgaria.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

What about "in the West"?

Is Venezuela in the "west"?

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Is Venezuela in the "west"?

No. The West is in the traditional Cold War and post-Cold War sense of the five English-speaking countries, Western Europe, and the advanced, industrialized Asian countries (South Korea, Japan).

[Eug]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Has anyone here seen an LED with comparable light quality to a fluorescent or incandescent for room lighting?

I went looking for them...

Basically NOBODY sells actually usable ones locally. And by usable I mean ones that put out decent amounts of light. However, you CAN get them via mail order... if you're willing to pay almost $100 for a single light bulb. Well, maybe a little less, but you get the idea.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

No. The West is in the traditional Cold War and post-Cold War sense of the five English-speaking countries, Western Europe, and the advanced, industrialized Asian countries (South Korea, Japan).

I guess I forgot to add the smiley.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I went looking for them...

Basically NOBODY sells actually usable ones locally. And by usable I mean ones that put out decent amounts of light. However, you CAN get them via mail order... if you're willing to pay almost $100 for a single light bulb. Well, maybe a little less, but you get the idea.

ThinkGeek has these 75w equivalent bulbs for $60



ThinkGeek :: EarthLED Light Bulbs :: Additional Images

I'll admit I haven't tried them, but I have been looking into them for a few locations where I have to have a bulb burning 24hr/day. CFLs do NOT last as long as advertised and are a pain to dispose of environmentally. How many "average" people actually know you aren't supposed to just put them in the trash?

[Eug]

Well, are you really interested in spending $60 for a 75 Watt light bulb?

Even if you broke even 5 years later in electricity costs, that's quite a high up front cost, when comparable CFLs cost $4.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Well, are you really interested in spending $60 for a 75 Watt light bulb?

Even if you broke even 5 years later in electricity costs, that's quite a high up front cost, when comparable CFLs cost $4.

LEDs last >10 years. My current pace with CFLs running 24/7 is about 6 months (all brands). A few are still burning after a couple years, but only the ones that aren't on 24/7. The ones I need to keep on constantly don't have long lives. One lasted a couple weeks is all. Also, the quality of light CFLs give is horrendous, and the environmental impact is significant as well. We only need a few LED bulbs.

The cost will be worth it both financially and environmentally.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

LEDs last >10 years. My current pace with CFLs running 24/7 is about 6 months (all brands). A few are still burning after a couple years, but only the ones that aren't on 24/7. The ones I need to keep on constantly don't have long lives. One lasted a couple weeks is all. Also, the quality of light CFLs give is horrendous, and the environmental impact is significant as well. We only need a few LED bulbs.

The cost will be worth it both financially and environmentally.

The claimed lifespan of the LEDs I saw was 50000 hours. That's 5-6 years.

But remember, that's just the claimed lifespan, not necessarily real world, and the brightness diminishes with time.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by peeb 

My point was that in any discussion of things that we can do as a society to reduce emissions, someone will leap in and say "But I can't do that!"

Why shouldn't they speak up? Your first statement arguably boils down to excluding them from society. "We as a society can do X" implies that anyone who can't do X is not part of our society.

[Eug]

I'd gladly cover my roof with solar panels... if I could do it for under $10000.

Too bad it would cost 10 times that.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The claimed lifespan of the LEDs I saw was 50000 hours. That's 5-6 years.

But remember, that's just the claimed lifespan, not necessarily real world, and the brightness diminishes with time.

ThinkGeek says "can burn for 11 years".

[Eug]

Sounds about right. It's common to quote lamp life using 12 hours a day, so 50000 hours would be 11 years... of claimed life running half the time.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Why shouldn't they speak up? Your first statement arguably boils down to excluding them from society. "We as a society can do X" implies that anyone who can't do X is not part of our society.

What nonsense. I'm talking about things that many or most people can do, and the response is always that a minority of people cannot or will not do them, therefore, by implication, the suggesting is useless. It isn't that I think there are not people who live 3 miles deep who would not benefit from solar panels, simply that their existence does not mean that solar panels are not a good idea in general.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Sounds about right. It's common to quote lamp life using 12 hours a day, so 50000 hours would be 11 years... of claimed life running half the time.

Weird logic award of the day™.

[Eug]

Google is your friend.

The CL-3 has a life span of over 50,000 hours meaning you will be able to enjoy its amazing light output and energy cost savings for over 11 Years!

To put this into perspective:

One - 3 Watt EarthLED CL-3 costs approximately $1.30 to run per year at 12 hours per day. Since it was on for approximately 4000 hours it still has nearly 10 years of life!

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by subego 

I'm not sure where you got the idea that he had fake positions, though.

Some of his crazier threads, usually reg Lounge stuff.

Originally Posted by subego 

Are you sure this isn't more an issue of unrealistic expectations on your part?

I don't think expecting him to take on challenges in debate threads he started was unrealistic, no. If it was, the creation of the thread would be pointless (and this where he got himself banned because that's pretty much what happened at the end).

Originally Posted by subego 

This is factually correct, but this makes it look like it's the problem when it's only a symptom.

He doesn't like to admit he's wrong. Of course, no one does, but some can deal with it better than others. Likewise, especially for him, this isn't a good environment for people to work on overcoming that problem. The hypocrisy flows out of that, rather than being the problem itself.

Yeah, there's no reward for admitting you're wrong here. But I seem to recall him claiming he was fair and he'd admit when he was beaten (which he did at the beginning). I think this is part of the reason people would try to chase him down when he started dodging like a mad man. They wanted their advertised reward.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I'd gladly cover my roof with solar panels... if I could do it for under $10000.
Too bad it would cost 10 times that.

You're right that solar seems expensive, but that is because you are comparing the cost of solar (which gets few if any subsidy) to carbon fuels, which receive substantial public subsidy. The situation is even worse in the transport realm, but since the US has socialized the full costs of coal, oil etc, solar seems more expensive.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Google is your friend.

The CL-3 has a life span of over 50,000 hours meaning you will be able to enjoy its amazing light output and energy cost savings for over 11 Years!

To put this into perspective:

One - 3 Watt EarthLED CL-3 costs approximately $1.30 to run per year at 12 hours per day. Since it was on for approximately 4000 hours it still has nearly 10 years of life!

I was wrong. The savings are still significant and much better than CFLs.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I'd gladly cover my roof with solar panels... if I could do it for under $10000.
Too bad it would cost 10 times that.

You're right that solar seems expensive, but that is because you are comparing the cost of solar (which gets few if any subsidy) to carbon fuels, which receive substantial public subsidy. The situation is even worse in the transport realm, but since the US has socialized the full costs of coal, oil etc, solar seems more expensive.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by peeb 

You're right that solar seems expensive, but that is because you are comparing the cost of solar (which gets few if any subsidy) to carbon fuels, which receive substantial public subsidy. The situation is even worse in the transport realm, but since the US has socialized the full costs of coal, oil etc, solar seems more expensive.

1) I don't live in the US.
2) There are lots of subsidies for solar in the US. You can get as much as $20000 off an installation in the US... which would mean it would cost $80000 instead of $100000, or perhaps $60000 instead of $80000. Furthermore, you can even get paid by the state electricity provider when your solar setup generates net power for them.

Subsidies for solar abound, especially if you live in specific areas. However, solar still costs an arm and a leg for startup costs. I don't care so much about coulda woulda shoulda when it comes to my personal expenses and my house.

The bottom line is when someone says I should invest in solar or something for my home to help the environment, I have to wonder if they have any concept of the real world practicality.