[bondsteel]

I predict that the MacBook Pro will have stunning battery life (i.e. five hours or more). At this point, it is the only reasonable outcome of this issue. Who believes that Apple does not know how long the battery lasts in a product that is supposedly shipping this week? Therefore, they must be saving the great news of the MBP's incredible battery for one last wave of positive press and excitement. There is evidence to support this theory: the unknown lithium polymer technology, as well as the extremely large battery size (judging from product photos) are two examples.

If the battery is average (or worse), it would have been easier to bury that issue under the euphoria of the original product announcement. To wait until everyone has received their order and then deal with the dissappointment of dismal battery performance hardly seems like a strategy that Apple would consider.

So maybe this is just another Jobsian PR stunt. Or maybe Apple was trying to hide the benefits of Lithium Polymer batteries from their competitors for as long as possible. Whatever the reason, I am personally looking forward to finally going all day with an Apple laptop without needing to keep it plugged in.

[Dork.]

Even if the battery lasts only 10 minutes, that's infinitely longer than the battery life on a G5 Powerbook.

[John123]

Originally Posted by bondsteel

I am personally looking forward to finally going all day with an Apple laptop without needing to keep it plugged in.

Dude, I want some of whatever you are smoking....

[harrisjamieh]

Originally Posted by bondsteel

I am personally looking forward to finally going all day with an Apple laptop without needing to keep it plugged in.

I look forward to being able to go all day on ANY laptop without needing to keep it plugged in. (though obviously I would somewhat prefer to be doing it on one running OSX )

[Kadman]

Originally Posted by harrisjamieh

I look forward to being able to go all day on ANY laptop without needing to keep it plugged in. (though obviously I would somewhat prefer to be doing it on one running OSX )

I think you have to first define "all day". If you mean 24 hours then we are a ways off, although you might be shocked to know that they have experimental notebook batteries that lasted over 1 month. If you define it as "a day's work", then it's already here. I've used an IBM X41 that had a 9+ hour battery in it. Although I didn't sit and clock it, I have easily used it for a business day without charging it.

[harrisjamieh]

Originally Posted by Kadman

I think you have to first define "all day". If you mean 24 hours then we are a ways off, although you might be shocked to know that they have experimental notebook batteries that lasted over 1 month. If you define it as "a day's work", then it's already here. I've used an IBM X41 that had a 9+ hour battery in it. Although I didn't sit and clock it, I have easily used it for a business day without charging it.

Wha?! A month!! That'll be the day!
Seriously, you got 9 hours out of that thinkpad? Thats what i'm talking about... something that can last a school/business day, or that will have enough power to last a plane journey from the UK to the US.

[sodamnregistered2]

Can't you can turn one of the cores off for better battery life?

[Kadman]

The direction Intel has been going for some time now is to use their speedstep technology. Basically when you are on battery power, it cuts the processor down dramatically and steps it up only when it needs to. In typical usage (browsing, document creation, etc.) the CPU can literally drop down to a few hundred Mhz. When you run a demanding app, it will "step" the CPU up to full power, but also consuming much more power with it. To be honest, I have no clue if the MBP will support Speedstep, but I would certainly hope so.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by bondsteel

So maybe this is just another Jobsian PR stunt. Or maybe Apple was trying to hide the benefits of Lithium Polymer batteries from their competitors for as long as possible.

Dell has been shipping LiPo batteries for at least 7 months, probably longer.

Originally Posted by Kadman

To be honest, I have no clue if the MBP will support Speedstep, but I would certainly hope so.

If the MBP doesn't support Speedstep, the battery will be lucky to last an hour and a half. I can't imagine why apple would disable Speedstep.

[harrisjamieh]

Originally Posted by mduell

If the MBP doesn't support Speedstep, the battery will be lucky to last an hour and a half. I can't imagine why apple would disable Speedstep.

Just a shot in the dark, as I have never heard of Speedstep before, but is there a chance it is software based, and hence will not work on the MBP due to there being no software written for it for Mac? Or is it a hardware feature?

I know I have seen screenshots of people disabling a core on the iMacs, so you could always do that on the MBP if it doesnt support Speedstep. (Just a side note, I have never been able to figure out how to disable a core on my core duo, anyone advise me how to, just wana experiment with it)

[terigox]

Originally Posted by harrisjamieh

Just a shot in the dark, as I have never heard of Speedstep before, but is there a chance it is software based, and hence will not work on the MBP due to there being no software written for it for Mac? Or is it a hardware feature?

I know I have seen screenshots of people disabling a core on the iMacs, so you could always do that on the MBP if it doesnt support Speedstep. (Just a side note, I have never been able to figure out how to disable a core on my core duo, anyone advise me how to, just wana experiment with it)

On my HP laptop I have a Pentium-M 1.5ghz, normally on battery it clocks down to 297mhz, and I get pretty decent battery life, about 4 hours playing music, usually the LCD cuts off after 20 minutes.

When I've loaded linux on it, I never got the stepping to work with the kernel, so I'm pretty sure its software based

[terigox]

EDIT: Double post =/

[Kadman]

Speedstep settings are usually controlled via the BIOS. For your HP you probably have to hit F2 at boot and the option is probably under an "Advanced" menu of some sort.

[terigox]

I wonder why it didn't work naturally in linux then

Or perhaps by default the linux kernel i was using was set to full speed ahead, which is why you need to load modules or make changes to slow it down... hrmmmm

[bondsteel]

By a "day", I meant 8 hours, give or take, of light duty use, with brief, random periods of sleep. Guess I was exaggerating a bit for dramatic effect. I'd be happy to get 4 hours.

mduell: I did not know that Dell used LiPo batteries. So much for that part of my theory.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by harrisjamieh

Just a shot in the dark, as I have never heard of Speedstep before, but is there a chance it is software based, and hence will not work on the MBP due to there being no software written for it for Mac? Or is it a hardware feature?

I know I have seen screenshots of people disabling a core on the iMacs, so you could always do that on the MBP if it doesnt support Speedstep. (Just a side note, I have never been able to figure out how to disable a core on my core duo, anyone advise me how to, just wana experiment with it)

Speedstep is done by the hardware/firmware, but the software needs to let it drop into the lower power states (C3, C4, and C4 plus or whatever they're calling it). Poorly designed software is why the Windows/USB2 power consumption bug exists.

[power142]

Originally Posted by terigox

I wonder why it didn't work naturally in linux then

Or perhaps by default the linux kernel i was using was set to full speed ahead, which is why you need to load modules or make changes to slow it down... hrmmmm

It does depend on the kernel you're using.... for example, PowerNow! (AMD) works well with 2.6 kernels (possibly before) on an Athlon64 with Cool'n'Quiet enabled.

[ururk]

Originally Posted by bondsteel

I predict that the MacBook Pro will have stunning battery life (i.e. five hours or more). At this point, it is the only reasonable outcome of this issue. Who believes that Apple does not know how long the battery lasts in a product that is supposedly shipping this week? Therefore, they must be saving the great news of the MBP's incredible battery for one last wave of positive press and excitement. There is evidence to support this theory: the unknown lithium polymer technology, as well as the extremely large battery size (judging from product photos) are two examples.

Hmm, not to burst your bubble, but I haven't seen any THICKNESS shots*, just width and height. So, they could have targeted 3 hours as the max runtime, and sized the thickness of the battery to make a 1" thick book.

Just speculation, which is of course, fueled by excitement, which naturally leads to wrong info.


*If you have, please share

[atc ben]

Or maybe the MBPs will only run for one hour on the battery and Apple will offer you an "upgrade" to two batteries. You'll all get an e-maill telling you that you have until the xth day to let them know how many batteries you want. This will, of course, postpone your ETAs for another month.

[Allenzi35]

Hi all, Lithium polymer is not that new of a technology. Apple has even used it before. Unless it has been upgraded or revamped, it is also not a reliable technology. The first ipod had a LiPolymer battery as well as the first model Compaq ipaq that I had. Both of them were crappy batteries that died prematurely. I hope that the outcome is different in the macbook because LiPolymer batteries have cause alot of ppl grief in the past.

[bondsteel]

Originally Posted by ururk

Hmm, not to burst your bubble, but I haven't seen any THICKNESS shots*, just width and height. So, they could have targeted 3 hours as the max runtime, and sized the thickness of the battery to make a 1" thick book.

Here's a picture of the MBP battery from Apple's technical specs page. Hard to tell the thickness, but it does not look particularly thin.

http://images.apple.com/macbookpro/i...ry20060109.png

[Tomchu]

The MacBook Pro batteries are 60 Wh batteries. Given the fact that a 1.83 GHz Core Duo has a typical power consumption of about 31 W (Intel data), I don't see the MacBook Pro lasting *anywhere* close to even 3 hours. I would say that with typical use, it would probably last 2 hours or so, given the fact that the video card, screen, and other components draw power as well.

My 12" iBook G4's batteries are 50 Wh. The iBook with the screen on the minimum setting, Airport on, and CPU idling draws about 9 W. This gives me ~5.5 hours of idle time according to OS X. The MacBook Pro has a much more advanced and higher-resolution screen, and a more powerful video card to boot -- that's also something to consider. You will *not* be getting 5 hours of real use out of a MacBook.

[TypeMRT]

Originally Posted by ururk

Hmm, not to burst your bubble, but I haven't seen any THICKNESS shots*, just width and height. So, they could have targeted 3 hours as the max runtime, and sized the thickness of the battery to make a 1" thick book.

*If you have, please share

"Battery: new lithium-polymer technology, stacked with the hard drive." Apple MBP Design page
When I saw it at Macworld the battery was definitely longer and wider, like the current 17" PB, but right under the HD close to the center front edge. Considering the MBP is only 1" and the HD is 9.5mm (0.37") + the lid (?) makes the battery really thin!

[bondsteel]

Originally Posted by Tomchu

The MacBook Pro batteries are 60 Wh batteries. Given the fact that a 1.83 GHz Core Duo has a typical power consumption of about 31 W (Intel data), I don't see the MacBook Pro lasting *anywhere* close to even 3 hours. I would say that with typical use, it would probably last 2 hours or so, given the fact that the video card, screen, and other components draw power as well.

An interesting analysis tomchu. One has to agree that your figures certainly indicate that we won't be getting five hours of battery life. Hopefully we'll get better than 2, though. The Acer TravelMate 4202WLMi Intel Core Duo is rated by Acer at 3 hours, and it uses a 44 Wh battery. Don't know if it actually gets 3 hours, though. A recent Tom's Hardware article (http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/01/...se/page23.html) measured average power consumption of the 2.0 ghz Core Duo at about 21 Wh, so I guess that helps a little. However, like you said, considering the (now even brighter) screen and other components, there seems to be no possible way that we will enjoy "stunning battery life" as I originally predicted.

[bondsteel]

Update: The Sony Vaio SZ160P/C notebook features a Core Duo T2400 (1.83 GHz) processor, 1GB DDR2 RAM, nVidea GeForce GO 7400, 13.3 widescreen display, integrated camera, etc. and Sony's Standard Capacity Lithium Ion Battery. This 6-cell battery is rated at 11.1V/5200mAH, or about 57.72 Wh if my calculations are correct. Unbelievably, Sony states, with the usual disclaimers, that this laptop configuration gets up to 7 hours with the standard battery (they even offer an additional battery that adds another 6-7 hours!). Their claim defies the logic of watts / hour consumption divided by battery size detailed by Tomchu above. Can 7 hours be possible, and if so, is there renewed hope for the MBP?

(http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...me=specs&var2=)

[terigox]

Originally Posted by bondsteel

Update: The Sony Vaio SZ160P/C notebook features a Core Duo T2400 (1.83 GHz) processor, 1GB DDR2 RAM, nVidea GeForce GO 7400, 13.3 widescreen display, integrated camera, etc. and Sony's Standard Capacity Lithium Ion Battery. This 6-cell battery is rated at 11.1V/5200mAH, or about 57.72 Wh if my calculations are correct. Unbelievably, Sony states, with the usual disclaimers, that this laptop configuration gets up to 7 hours with the standard battery (they even offer an additional battery that adds another 6-7 hours!). Their claim defies the logic of watts / hour consumption divided by battery size detailed by Tomchu above. How can 7 hours be possible, and if so, is there renewed hope for the MBP?

(http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...me=specs&var2=)

*gasp*

[zac4mac]

Cool, my MBP that's on its way some day is the same price as the Sony for more machine - I get a bigger screen, a faster processor, faster RAM, better video and a faster HDD. Sure sux how expensive Macs are...

[terigox]

I just found this link which does a review on an ASUS laptop with the T2500 (2.0ghz) duo, and they get between 3 hours and 3:45 in their testing, with many similar features.

[schalliol]

My expectation is that we'll see similar performance from the MBPs as the PowerBooks, though I doubt they'll ship one with less battery life than the existing 15" units.

[Dork.]

Here's what I think is happening:

Apple is planning on making extensive use of Speedstep to prolong battery life, but there are probably issues. Perhaps SpeedStep isn't performing as well as they'd like in OS X86 yet. Or, perhaps since SpeedStep appears to be application-specific, there are certain key apps which totally wreck it.

In any case, they might be coy about battery life right now because people are going to be getting varying results depending on what they're running, and they're going to be fixing things at the last minute. Some of these things might be application-specific (i.e. beyond their control if it's a 3rd-party app), and they don't want a class-action lawsuit over that. Other things might have to be fixed with a system update pushed out shortly after people get these in their hands. In none of these scenarios does it benefit Apple to release any specs about the battery performance other than "it has a battery. Have you seen the nifty new plug for it?"

[terigox]

That seems pretty likely Dork. Battery life or no battery life, it hasn't quelled the masses

[schalliol]

Apple usually does note how long the battery life is on the units upon introduction, so I don't know why they'd be coy "because people are going to be getting varying results depending on what they're running."

If Apple uses SpeedStep, I bet they'll call it something of their own.

[moodymonster]

http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=2693

There seem to be some reports saying there's a USB 2 bug that drains the battery on Core Duo systems. Dunno whether would affect Mac systems tho'

[schalliol]

I woudln't think so because it's going to be a different board for Apple.

[betasp]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=2693

There seem to be some reports saying there's a USB 2 bug that drains the battery on Core Duo systems. Dunno whether would affect Mac systems tho'

It is an ACPI windows driver issue. It won't affect OSX.

[lothar56]

My roommate's got an eMachines laptop, and he had to disable the speedstepping, because every time it tried to speedstep, the computer would shut off. And he thought I was dumb for getting an iBook...

[Tomchu]

SpeedStep is controlled by the OS kernel, as far as I know. The kernel knows the kind of load being placed on the system, and very quickly reacts by adjusting the processor. The hardware portion is responsible only for doing the actual dynamic multiplier/FSB/Vcore change, but it responds to the OS kernel's requests. This is why some Linux kernels will run your laptop full-force with the fans blaring -- because there is no SpeedStep compiled in, and the processor just runs (by default) at its highest speed.

I would assume that given Intel docs, and how quickly SpeedStep for the Centrino was implemented in Linux, that Apple has had no issues with it. They're a bunch of smart cookies over there.

[schalliol]

...and the guy at intel was pretty much kissing Jobs' ass at the keynote.

[power142]

Hey, I wouldn't rule that out if he was giving me as much high-profile business as he is

[amazing]

It's still very puzzling why Apple hasn't released any battery life estimates--after all, they're only estimates, there's never any software running when they list how long the battery lasts. That's the way they report industry-wide on laptop batteries, so why is Apple holding the figures back?

If indeed Jobs knew at MacWorld San Fran that the MBP was going to ship with a faster chip, then Jobs also knew that the display models were prototypes. So, if we hypothesize that he knew about the new chips that shipping models would have--does anyone doubt that Apple knew in January that the MBP would ship with different Intel chips in February?--after all, they'd have already been in production at the factory--meaning that he knew that he was hyping prototypes on stage. Since he didn't mention anything of the sort, that's some fairly questionable on-stage presentation. Sailing pretty close to the wind?

Yes, it's great to have the upgraded chip, but shouldn't he have mentioned that? How much of the advance-order sales were due to reports based on floor models and the reports from the showroom floor?

Before everyone jumps on their flamethrowers, pretend that MS had pulled something like that?
What would you be saying with that in mind?

[Kenstee]

Face the facts. If the MBP had really superior battery life vs. what they offer now Apple would be pushing this feature BIG time. They aren't.

Given their silence it would be safe to assume that battery life - for this Rev A at least - will most likely be on par with their current AL 15s.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Tomchu

The MacBook Pro batteries are 60 Wh batteries. Given the fact that a 1.83 GHz Core Duo has a typical power consumption of about 31 W (Intel data), I don't see the MacBook Pro lasting *anywhere* close to even 3 hours. I would say that with typical use, it would probably last 2 hours or so, given the fact that the video card, screen, and other components draw power as well.

The 31W "typical design power" for Core Duo means maximum, not at idle. My Dothan (27W TDP) based laptop draws as little as 10W with the screen on minimum brightness and all the peripherals turned off.

Originally Posted by Dork.

Apple is planning on making extensive use of Speedstep to prolong battery life, but there are probably issues. Perhaps SpeedStep isn't performing as well as they'd like in OS X86 yet. Or, perhaps since SpeedStep appears to be application-specific, there are certain key apps which totally wreck it.

Speedstep is not application specific, and does not care what apps you're running. All Speedstep cares about is running your computer in the deepest sleep state it can get away with.

Originally Posted by moodymonster

http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=2693

There seem to be some reports saying there's a USB 2 bug that drains the battery on Core Duo systems. Dunno whether would affect Mac systems tho'

That's a bug in the Windows USB2 driver, not in the platform; won't affect OSX at all unless they made the same mistake in their USB scheduling driver.

[amazing]

About Apple's USB drivers and battery life: Here's a link to a macosxhints.com tip

http://www.macosxhints.com/article.p...50808165343661
quote: "Like many 2005 PowerBook owners, I have been frustrated with the apparent bug in Apple's new USB trackpad driver on these machines which forces idle kernel_task utilization upwards of 7% at all times, dramatically reducing battery life, lowering system performance, and preventing the machine from cooling down while relatively idle. . . I decided to stop waiting and try to address the bug myself by simply removing Apple's trackpad driver from the equation . . . installing the SideTrack 1.2 trackpad driver fixed the problem completely, driving idle kernel_task utilization down as low as 1%. . . it is Apple's new 2-finger scrolling trackpad drivers in 10.4 which are to blame. . ."

[bondsteel]

Battery mystery deepens, though I guess we will find out for sure in a few days. The recently posted photographs of the MacBook Pro packaging reveals that the battery is not under the hard drive, as previously reported by Apple. See photo here: (http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne...307201&size=o). It appears that the underside of the trackpad is revealed after removing the battery, meaning that the battery is nearly as deep as the bottom case itself.

Doesn't someone in the forums live in Anchorage (most orders left China on the 18th and arrived in Alaska this morning at FedEx) so that they can test this thing once and for all?!

[Tomchu]

It's still only a 60 Wh battery. Check the Apple store. They already sell it as an extra, and they report on its power capacity.