[deathvole]

(It was either post here or the OS X forum, hope this is appropriate. Rather long.)

Ever had to put up with friends/coworkers talking about how expensive Macs are compared to a Wintel box? Of course you have. For an item like the G4 iBook the "Mac Markup" doesn't exist in my opinion (for what you get). But Average Joe is still looking at $599 Dell boxes and comparing that with a $1600 desktop Mac and saying "no way I can afford it".

Four words: Total Cost of Ownership.

You'll likely pay the same price (or more) for that Wintel box regardless. The cheap Dell/Gateway/etc. will simply involve repairs, reinstalls and downtime (not to mention your own time).

I've had a Gateway/Win2K for 3 years, a Dell/XP for less than 1 year. Both kept up to date with latest Win patches, virus defs, and scanned regularly.

Yesterday my Dell box started going unstable. Again. Diagnostics found nothing wrong. Put on my grounding wriststrap and reseated the cards (back into same slots) and DDR modules. It then gave me a "Plug & Pray Config Error" and now can't even start up.

Sure you can get in-warranty work done. If you don't mind your machine being gone for a week. Or more. Useless. In-home support? Have you seen the guys who show up? MSCE one-week-wonders of minimal use.

Both my Dell and Gateway have had extensive part swaps. The Gateway's power supply died in the first year. So did the harddrive. The Dell's floppy drive died in the first 5 months, then the harddrive died. Last summer while downloading patches for a fresh Win2K install, I was hit with a worm in the relatively short time it took me to download the very patches that would have protected my system from the worm.

Then there are the Macs. A venerable 7600, a Sawtooth G4 and my new iBook. Never had a bad component or system failure. The stuff just works. Never lost a workday to them. Even the 7600's original drives still hum along to this day (though I gave it a CPU upgrade for performance.)

If I include my lost work time on Wintel equipment and OS failures/reinstalls, that $699 Dell has far oustripped the cost of even a new G5.

Granted, anecdotal evidence makes for poor statistics, and even Apple has produced a few snafus. But on the Bell Curve of Reliability it's Mac all the way for me.

Macs are cheap if your time is valuable.

Cheers,

-DV

[djohnson]

Ummm.... Sounds like bait to start a fight, but I will bite I do tech support for cable/internet and all we get are windows calls. Something is always happening to them!Macs may have say 2% of the market share, but we get about 0.001% of our calls are mac related. This is because they just work. Take this for example:

I bought my beige G3 in summer of 98. My wife bought her compaq in summer of 99. We still use the G3(plus upgrade) everyday. The compaq has been sitting there, not evem turned on, for about 9 months or so... It is unusable. Of course it cost about half of what my mac did, but then we have had to replace it since then. Oh and we are replacing the computer that I am using now tomorrow when the parts come in!

Mac are cheaper then PC's! Oh and this should probably go in GD...

[fizzlemynizzle]

If it's a hardware problem in your Dell you can't count that against Windows TCO. You'd have the same downtime if you were running Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris X86, etc.

[ryju]

[I Me Mine]

I never understand the need for these "let's rally the troops!" kind of posts.

You're aiming at the wrong target - who of us here is going to switch from a Mac to a Mac?

[bimmerphile]

This is one of the arguments I always tell people that say "Macs are so much more expensive"

Well, parents, what about when your son moves out and you have to pay someone to fix yer box

[deathvole]

Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
If it's a hardware problem in your Dell you can't count that against Windows TCO. You'd have the same downtime if you were running Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris X86, etc.

Fully agree in the case of pure hardware problems. And that's exactly the point I was going for. Cheap Wintel boxes aren't really cheaper than a Mac in the long run. And since Average Joe Consumer isn't beating down Dell's door for low-end linux boxes.... ;-)

When Average Joe Consumer is comparison shopping, they typically aren't comparing $2K boxes to $2K boxes. They see that big blue "$599" in a Dell ad and wonder my Macs are so "expensive".

So for them, Windows == low-end box.

-DV

[deathvole]

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
I never understand the need for these "let's rally the troops!" kind of posts.

Not rallying any troops. Just reminding folks who run into "Macs are expensive" comments from friends/coworkers that they might want to point out something more than "Macs are easier to use" and "Macs are cool". Macs are also cost-effective in very real terms.

And when you're the one stuck doing tech support for relatives, it's good to be able to counter the "I'm saving $$$ with this cheap Dell" argument.

-DV

[-Q-]

Originally posted by deathvole:
And when you're the one stuck doing tech support for relatives, it's good to be able to counter the "I'm saving $$$ with this cheap Dell" argument.

Isn't that the truth? I have a current list of 'clients' (i.e. - non-paying family members who expect me to fix their stupid machines) but I've made it clear that anyone else, family member or not, they have to pay me if they want me to support their windows crap. And at $100 an hour, their Dell machine gets mighty expensive quickly - especially with all these recent 'security' updates.

[BigDaddy]

I have a Sony 1.6 P4 running XP pro for right at 2 years own 24/7 without any problems. I also have 2 iBooks so I have to disagree. XP with a good virus program is hard to beat.

[djohnson]

I must agree XP has made windows slightly better... The hardware from some vendors is crap. I like quality, that is why I build my own windows systems. Now when I get my dual 3Ghz G5 w/ 23" display

[Commodus]

I remember this one observation someone made that summarizes what a lot of Mac users believe: "Macs are only expensive if you place no value on your time."

Now that's not always true, but it's shocking the degree to which weird stuff happens with Windows computers (even custom-built, well-maintained ones) that doesn't happen with Macs. At work I often have to deal with what look like connection problems that turn out to be core Windows networking files going haywire. That just doesn't happen with Macs, or if it does it's so rare that we virtually never see it.

Not to mention that on a Windows PC these days, you pretty much have to have at least a few security measures in place: a firewall (or router), an antivirus app (or a non-standard e-mail client), and a pop-up blocker and/or anti-spyware app. Most of that won't come with the system, and it's the "wow, such a deal at $399!" people who'll get burned when they find out that they may have to pay extra just to avoid an infection.

[jasonsRX7]

Think about if Apple sold a $599 iMac without a built LCD. I don't think anyone could complain about Mac prices then. If they can sell eMacs for $799, they ought to be able to do it. I can see where that would cut into the Powermac profits, but then again, since I've become a semi-switcher, several of my friends have said they'd like to try out a Mac, but aren't willing to put $1700 or more into it. And they don't want to pay $700 on ebay for a 4 year old system to play with.

So if you think about it, people who are really into PCs don't have a lot of options when it comes to switching. Either they give up a lot of expandability to stay in the price range they're used to, or they plunk down a LOT more money than they're used to paying to get a Powermac.

[BenRoethig]

I have had nothing but trouble with the Compaq 8000Z. More than my Performa 5200, 350mhz B&W G3, and 933mhz iBook combined.

[-Q-]

Originally posted by BigDaddy:
XP with a good virus program is hard to beat.

The fact that you have to add 'with a good virus program' proves my point entirely.

I've spent entirely too much time helping friends and relatives download and install Ad Aware, Spybot and AVG. Not to mention the myriad security updates that come out, sometimes 200 days AFTER MS has been told about them (WTF is up with that???).

So a machine running XP is easy to beat: Dual G5 running OS X.

[DrBoar]

We three guys share a room at work. The one PC guy was shocked how expensive a iMac was compared to Dell box.

Then I used the configurator att Dell.com to have the features of the iMac matched on the Dell: Replacing the 17" CRT with a high res TFT, replacing the CDRW with a DVD burner and so on. The price was within 5% of the iMac...

With a PC I do get a much larger selection of applications, like good WWII flight simulators and there are chaper duron/celeron boxes out there but you get what you pay for

[redJag]

Anyone that uses the "expensive" argument and buys a pre-built computer is being ridiculous. Dell, Compaq, etc etc, all cost very nearly as much as an Apple.

[esc]

I have had hardware problems with Macs in the past, but have always had the machines under AppleCare and everything was covered (having the display die on my Ti PB after 1.5 years would have been expensive and the hard disk on an old Pismo died)

The total cost of ownership can be much lower on a Mac if you value your time at anything about minimum wage. An MD friend had to pay for almost 50 hours of emergency work to deal with the worms of August in his 5 partner practice. There was so much demand (my Dr friend had to shut down for two days) that the going rate was $250 an hour for help. Pretty spendy if you ask me.

I help about a dozen people run their Macs (mostly family members who aren't terribly computer literate). Despite the number I have no problem keeping up with an occasional call here and there. When people ask me for help on a new machine I tell them it is $100 an hour for Windows and free if they run OS X. About a half dozen people switched to Macs.

[carrots]

I am writing this on my girlfriend's Dell laptop. I personally have a B&W G3/400 and a 400Mhz Lombard Powerbook. The laptop I am currently using is less than 9 months old. It does not see hard use- it's never been used as a mobile, it sits on a desk and is used for general computing tasks. My PB, on the other hand, goes with me everywhere, banging around in a book bag, has been dropped a few times, and goes through general hell. In the 5 years that this thing has been around, the only thing that has gone wrong is that the keyboard cable wore out and I had to replace the keyboard. This Dell I am using now is having trouble with the trackpad, and from the feel of the case, I wouldn't trust it to last too long under the stress I put my laptop through... and it's almost 2 inches thick! It also cost about the same as a nice 14" iBook, and those things are built like tanks. Which is the better value? Not to mention the minor tech support type things I have had to do on it, like virus stuff, removing all the crappy "trial version" software that came pre- installed(Apple provides its full versions of similar stuff for free)and running Ad-Aware/ Spybot regularly.

[Trytti]

I have a PCP 240 since '97, now upgraded and running continuously since SETI in '99 with no hardware failures. Of course it is at least an Apple designed motherboard. Few software issues. Another family member has a Dell since '98 with only minor hardware failures, but have had continual problems with software. Which cost a lot of money over time.

For instance, if you update Microsoft Windows and you didn't buy it from Dell, you have just given up your software technical support. You have to buy the vendor's version to keep the warrenty valid.

[Axsimulate]

I own a computer repair business. I see some problems with Macs, but they are generally minor. Some are related to the HD going bad and you can't really blame Apple for that.
However, PCs have a lot of problems although XP has solved some of them, but XP still can't escape the virus problem. 85-90% of all my service calls with PCs are virus related. Most PC users don't update their virus software because they don't want to shell out the money, and get infected. Sometimes virus software can't undo the problem and the HD must be reformated, sometimes even the partition must be blown away (boot viruses are pretty nasty), and the OS reinstalled. Of course when that happens all their data is lost, if they didn't have a good back up, which is the case the majority of the time. How much is your time worth? How much is your data worth?
That's what I tell my customers looking at new a computer. Of course I always suggest a Mac, because you can't put a price on peace of mind.
TOC? The Mac wins hands down, because the PC isn't even at the starting gate.

[bojangles]

Last June, the president of the company I was working for gave me a call and said something to the effect of, �You said if you had a faster computer you could do Flash stuff, right?� Well, he was exactly right. In general, my 1.7GHz Dell wasn�t nearly as fast as the 266MHz G3 I have at home, and the Dell (running Win2K) went in fits: it would be perfectly stable for four days, then crash five times in a day, then be perfectly stable for the next three days until it started repeatedly crashing again. Anyway, the point is that he just so happened to call me two days after the G5 was announced, so I put together a proposal.

The �Macs are so expensive�_people may not believe this, but a comparable Dell was TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS MORE than the top-of-the-line, Dual-2GHz Power Mac G5! Needless to say, not even the president�who had spent the last ten years getting rid of the Macs on which his predecessor had built the company�could argue with the logic. And then I saved another $1,000+ on peripherals and software by playing hardball with the vendor.

On a side note, about a week after my G5 came in, my old Dell�along with three other Win2K-based machines in the factory�became severely corrupted and wouldn�t allow anyone to log in. Even reinstalling Windows didn�t help. I (being the company�s technical specialist) had to reformat all three hard drives, destroying significant amounts of personal files. (Thank goodness all work-related stuff was confined to the network.)

Second side note: in October, the company announced a round of layoffs and my head was among those on the chopping block. By December, it became apparent that no one left at the company knew how to use the high-end software on the G5 and I was able to buy the whole system off them in exchange for two-thirds of my consulting fees (which are more than triple my former hourly rate, anyway). I�m typing this on my very own dual-2GHz G5.

[yoyoman]

A dell for 599 that is with out a monitor right? i see one for 399 with a celeron cpu. I just cutomised a dell to have the similar of a emac. Its the same practically the same dang price. 758 dollars for a 17 inch screen 80 gig hd 128 megs of ram p4 combo drive no graphics card and xp pro.
a emac for 849 dollars. g4 128 ram 80 gig hd combo drive. And apple' site is so simple just like there computer dell's site, on the other hand man, I went threw like 8 pages of things they wanted to sell me just to total it up. so right off the bat with out toc its much similar in price. Next bugs and viruses you talk about I just spent about something worth over 40+ hours to fix and upgrade this ladys pc box. Just a pain in the rear end. Then to fix it upgrading it cost almost as much as trading it in and payin the difference of like 200 bucks for a emac. So when you think about it they cost the same pracitcally. I mean heck a hd is a hd its not like they make special ones for pc and special ones for mac and the price is differnet . A wd is a wd. A toshiba is a toshiba its the same prices aren't differnt. Its more than just that. It's the whole package. And o yes legacy ports who in the right mind is going to use a ps2 port still or a parallel port. Get with the program here. LEGACY.

[pdot]

Originally posted by Commodus:
I remember this one observation someone made that summarizes what a lot of Mac users believe: "Macs are only expensive if you place no value on your time."

I agree with this immensely. I helped my sister build a solid computer for about $450 (sans monitor) a year ago and I am the one who has to troubleshoot everything. The hours I spent on running updates and configuring the software, etc....it's insane. Everything worked fine for a few months so I know it's not the hardware. Windows is just a pain when something goes wrong. And there's no way I'm going to put linux on that thing.

[h00ligan]

While I totally agree that with TCO the prices of macs and pc's come a lot closer.. pc's still give you a lot more hardware for the dollar, and apple still has to get prices down if they want to increase market share.

I would also like to adress 2 of teh slams you made in your post.

1 week wonder MCSE's

Any MCSE working as a tech for dell, used braindumps to get it. As a certified apple technician, mcse, ccna, ccnp, i will still tell you the MCSE test were the hardest of the lot.

Getting a worm when you downloaded the patches. I quick trip tot the ip filtering tab would have prevented that. While there are flaws.. there are ways to deal with them.

Last but not least.. if mac os X had even 40 % of the home or business user market.. there would be a lot more people trying to exploit it. While windows is fundamentally less secure... if you have a clue what you are doing.. attacks aren't as easy as people believe.. and given that mostly it is script kiddies.. they will move on if they hit a wall. Now for a server.. no way.

That said, i prefer os x to linux and windows.. but they all have their places.. and being a zealot for any platform can only lead to malinformation and disappointment.

just a couple cents.

Originally posted by deathvole:
(It was either post here or the OS X forum, hope this is appropriate. Rather long.)

Ever had to put up with friends/coworkers talking about how expensive Macs are compared to a Wintel box? Of course you have. For an item like the G4 iBook the "Mac Markup" doesn't exist in my opinion (for what you get). But Average Joe is still looking at $599 Dell boxes and comparing that with a $1600 desktop Mac and saying "no way I can afford it".

Four words: Total Cost of Ownership.

You'll likely pay the same price (or more) for that Wintel box regardless. The cheap Dell/Gateway/etc. will simply involve repairs, reinstalls and downtime (not to mention your own time).

I've had a Gateway/Win2K for 3 years, a Dell/XP for less than 1 year. Both kept up to date with latest Win patches, virus defs, and scanned regularly.

Yesterday my Dell box started going unstable. Again. Diagnostics found nothing wrong. Put on my grounding wriststrap and reseated the cards (back into same slots) and DDR modules. It then gave me a "Plug & Pray Config Error" and now can't even start up.

Sure you can get in-warranty work done. If you don't mind your machine being gone for a week. Or more. Useless. In-home support? Have you seen the guys who show up? MSCE one-week-wonders of minimal use.

Both my Dell and Gateway have had extensive part swaps. The Gateway's power supply died in the first year. So did the harddrive. The Dell's floppy drive died in the first 5 months, then the harddrive died. Last summer while downloading patches for a fresh Win2K install, I was hit with a worm in the relatively short time it took me to download the very patches that would have protected my system from the worm.

Then there are the Macs. A venerable 7600, a Sawtooth G4 and my new iBook. Never had a bad component or system failure. The stuff just works. Never lost a workday to them. Even the 7600's original drives still hum along to this day (though I gave it a CPU upgrade for performance.)

If I include my lost work time on Wintel equipment and OS failures/reinstalls, that $699 Dell has far oustripped the cost of even a new G5.

Granted, anecdotal evidence makes for poor statistics, and even Apple has produced a few snafus. But on the Bell Curve of Reliability it's Mac all the way for me.

Macs are cheap if your time is valuable.

Cheers,

-DV

[Link]

OS X is like a high end mercedes with auto transmission. Easy to use for anyone yet very powerful.

Windows is like a beat up ford fiesta with a jaguar v8 bolted onto it.





Come on, it's like going to walmart.. ok see that hairdryer? Sure it's $5 cheaper but it'll blow up in your face too!

See the reason windows has 95% of the market is that about 95% of those users call AOL when their computer stops working and get mad, accuse aol that "AOL BROKE MY COMPUTER! I"M GOING WITH INTERNET EXPLORER FOR NOW ON!"

You get the idea.....

The other 5% are mostly "home brew athlon rigz" that are housed in cheftec or antec (or generic ripoffs of said) cases.

[yoyoman]

link you make no scence. jag is owned by ford.


and apple isn't that much more expensive read what i posted or go to dells site and do what I did price compareson rigt now.

[SillyMe]

I just GOTTA chime in.

Folks who buy PCs using cost as the primary basis deserve what they get.

Case in point, my brother. He got a new Dell one year ago this month. So far, he has reinstalled Windows XP and all of the software six (6) times. Most of the time the shareware and weird installs that get him. Things just NEVER work right, and it's a god awful mess. He bought a Dell thinking he'll get a turn-key with an easy restore. NOPE! Dell sold him a box with such crappy components (they claim the sound card is a SB Live 5.1.. it's really a DSP card that doesn't work with SB's own drivers), that he has practically replaces the video card and sound card. That means he has to download, install, and sometimes configure drivers. Even the ethernet card needs a separate driver. Sheesh, what friggin year is this? Not to mention move back his "Documents and Settings files." It's really a pain to watch.

My iBook 600, which I bought from a guy for $1000 cash two years ago, has had no reinstalls until last week (for Panther). It has been a ROCK... slammed around, used, abused, squeezed, and pushed hard all of that time. No lockups, and no blue screens. And guess what, when Panther was done installing, all I had to do was put on Office, iLife, and my favorite utilities. No muss, no fuss, just get it, sync with dot mac, and get back to work.

People who fart with PCs and Windows obviously don't value their own time.

[Macman069]

Somehow I doubtthat a G3 266 was on par with a P4 1.7 ghz. Cmon now.

[xaos]

The first thing I do with people who complain about the price of a Mac is show them how much used Macs sell for on eBay. The average Wincrap box is worth about 25-30% of it's original purchase price after a year, while a Mac holds close to about 70% of it's value during that same time period. The less money you have, the less you can afford to throw away on a Wintel box. Then after you show them what they can do with it without any additional software investment, and how much time they will save by not having to do silly things like virus scans and defragging (not to mention constantly repairing broken Windows installs), and they get the picture pretty quickly.

[eddiecatflap]

..i agree 1000000%

..had macs since 1992 , never had a single hardware problem , and only one minor software one.

..last week my bro' got a dell D800 from his work - haha - oh dear , what a pile of junk , you guessed it , stopped working after 3 days

[Macanoid]

when you are talking about Total Cost of ownership, you're talking mostly about companies, not individual users. Also, you have to look at the big picture. The cost of hardware is almost never relevant, they're a given, known fact.
Support and maintenance however is something completely different - that's where windows loses big time! (just look at the big sicurity leak in XP this week - that's costing companies A LOT of money!)

here a few very interesting links on the subject (from my personal) archive:

10464.net

[yoyoman]

like i siad look at my price chart price wise they are practically the same. Every thing else that comes with it hands down apple wins but still just look at the inital cost.

[cc_foo]

Originally posted by Commodus:
I remember this one observation someone made that summarizes what a lot of Mac users believe: "Macs are only expensive if you place no value on your time."

The phrase I've heard is: PCs are cheaper, if your time is free.

[bojangles]

Originally posted by Macman069:
Somehow I doubtthat a G3 266 was on par with a P4 1.7 ghz. Cmon now.

I agree that it sounds ridiculous�I never would have believed it if I hadn�t experienced it myself!

Please recognize that I�m not saying the G3 beat out the P4 in everything; on most high-end stuff, the one-year-old Dell smoked the five-year-old G3 (as would be expected). But on a day-to-day basis, the G3 running Jag felt generally snappier than the Dell/Win2K, and the G3�s startup times blew the Dell away! Maybe it�s the older, smaller software that generally inhabits the G3, but you�d think the Classic layer would slow that down. The point is that I�m not talking about benchmarks here; I�m talking about my personal user experience. Take Flash, for example: the reason the president was willing to get me a new computer for something as (relatively) simple as Flash is because probably half the time I tried to access a menu (on the Dell), the menu would flicker for anywhere from 5-30 seconds before I could actually select anything. The G3�s not a speed demon (any more), but I never had issues like that.

And just as an aside, before the 1.7GHz P4, my at-work machine was a 350MHz PIII�based Dell. With that computer, just double-clicking a layer in Photoshop would freeze the computer for 5-6 minutes while it thought about it�a process that the G3 handles in a second or so.

I don�t claim that any of this makes sense in theory; I�m just reporting the facts.

[bojangles]

Originally posted by Macanoid:
when you are talking about Total Cost of ownership, you're talking mostly about companies, not individual users. Also, you have to look at the big picture. The cost of hardware is almost never relevant, they're a given, known fact.
Support and maintenance however is something completely different - that's where windows loses big time! (just look at the big sicurity leak in XP this week - that's costing companies A LOT of money!)

Amen, brother. About three months after I started with the company I�ve been talking about, the president got a brand new Dell server instead of an XServe. The XServe would have cost $3,000 vs. $2,000 for the Dell, so he figured he was getting a deal. Unfortunately, the guy that came to hook it took charged $120/hr for about twelve hours of getting Win2K Server up and running, installing additional licenses, setting up a hardware firewall that wound up not working with the system, setting up a different hardware firewall that wasn�t quite as good, etc., etc., etc.. If that had been the end of it, it wouldn�t have been that big a deal, but after a month, the server started having major issues. We lost of $20,000 in downtime, plus had to pay both the guy that originally set it up and another guy above him to come out and fix it.

TOC is an amazing thing�.

[Macanoid]

Originally posted by bojangles:
Amen, brother. About three months after I started with the company I�ve been talking about, the president got a brand new Dell server instead of an XServe. The XServe would have cost $3,000 vs. $2,000 for the Dell, so he figured he was getting a deal. Unfortunately, the guy that came to hook it took charged $120/hr for about twelve hours of getting Win2K Server up and running, installing additional licenses, setting up a hardware firewall that wound up not working with the system, setting up a different hardware firewall that wasn�t quite as good, etc., etc., etc.. If that had been the end of it, it wouldn�t have been that big a deal, but after a month, the server started having major issues. We lost of $20,000 in downtime, plus had to pay both the guy that originally set it up and another guy above him to come out and fix it.

TOC is an amazing thing�.

Not only that, but X-Serve comes with OSX Server and unlimited users. For every user on an Win-Server you pay at least $ 100. So if your company has, say, 500 users, that's another $ 50.000 in licensing fees. That's a lot of money down the drain for less functionality!!

[365]

Originally posted by bojangles:
Please recognize that I�m not saying the G3 beat out the P4 in everything; on most high-end stuff, the one-year-old Dell smoked the five-year-old G3 (as would be expected). But on a day-to-day basis, the G3 running Jag felt generally snappier than the Dell/Win2K, and the G3�s startup times blew the Dell away!

I have a 700mhz G4 iMac ( cost �1250 ) and a 2.4Ghz P4 Compaq desktop ( cost �1000 BUT with a Compaq 18" TFT monitor ). The Mac has by FAR the superior OS and is my computer of choice ( waiting for the revB G5 towers ) but the Compaq walks all over.. well actually it embarrases the iMac for speed.

My wife is a technophobe and on the occassions that she does use the computers she always mentions how much faster the PC is. Like a lot of others she doesn't understand the issues of which OS is better, she does a little web browsing, sending email or writing a letter, to her the choice is a no brainer, go with the faster and cheaper machine. Most on these forums are passionate about their computer but to the majority, computers are just another household appliance.

[macintologist]

I hear about all these Windows nightmares but it isn't the case at my school. We have 2 labs filled with P4 and Celeron PCs. They are all custom built, have optical mice, no graphics necesary (it's a school), 17" monitors, all running Windows 2000 Professional. You have to log-in in order to use one and every time you do it "resets" the settings back to the student default settings. In fact, logging into Win2k is far faster than logging into OSX. The OS is snappy (Win2k doesn't have eye candy like OSX), Photoshop runs very well on the 2 ghz p4s, Flash, Office, Director et al all work great. there haven't been any problems with these computers both hardware and software wise in the last year and a half, and they all costed including monitors about 600 dollars each. I think the Celerons were cheaper. No they don't have FW or nice graphics, nor iLife, but their role is to be workstations for students so they really don't need that. I've never owned a Windows machine so I don't know what it's like but this is my impression from using them everyday.

[milhaus]

I'm sorry, but posts like these only serve to inflame PC trolls and make them think that Mac people are dummies.

First of all, TCO varies depending on your level of computer savviness. Most of the components, minus the MB and processor, in a Mac are stock and will fail at the same rate as PC components, given the assumption that you have control over this. This is why people need to build their own machines, or at least select their own components.

Number two: virus checking, ad-aware and spybot are necessary investments of time - but if you are savvy enough to schedule them once, you're not really doing anything except clicking a few buttons. Is that worth $$$$? Not really.

Number three: many of these posts are saying "nothing ever goes wrong with a Mac." Ummm . . . have you read the forums? Apple is great, but there's lots of hardware related issues with them as well. iBook, powerbook especially, but I can cite lots of f-ups on Apple's end as well.

Number four: If a P4 1.7 Ghz is slower, at anything, than a 233mhz G3, there's something wrong with your system.

Lets be honest here:
Windows XP is mediocre. If you know anything at all about computers, you should be able to keep it stable and fast. However, you cannot fix how ugly it is, how non-intuitive, and how bad its multitasking is. The arguments about Windows and stability apply to corporations because of the number of naive users using their boxes.

Panther is amazing. It is beautiful, fast, and stable; it is well designed and intutive. It can multitask. That is what you're paying for, and you are paying extra for it. And for me, that is absolutely worth $500.

That is what I would point out about the comparison. I'm in the middle of a self imposed exile from my Macs (on a daily basis that is) to so that I can really appreciate the differences. I've had very few problems (no more than I had with my various macs) with my three Winblows machines, and with various add-ons, they look very similar to OS X. My one main complaint is with the multitasking - what a joke . . .

[no use for a nick]

Originally posted by macintologist:
You have to log-in in order to use one and every time you do it "resets" the settings back to the student default settings. In fact, logging into Win2k is far faster than logging into OSX.

Sounds like great Windows sys-admins to me. When you start talking about labs at schools, the computers will only be as great to use as the sys-admins are who configure them. I'm the Mac sys-admin for a private University and I'd venture to say our OS X configuration is as good as our Windows setup when it comes to things like maintaining default settings, login times, etc.

[bojangles]

Originally posted by no use for a nick:
Sounds like great Windows sys-admins to me. When you start talking about labs at schools, the computers will only be as great to use as the sys-admins are who configure them. I'm the Mac sys-admin for a private University and I'd venture to say our OS X configuration is as good as our Windows setup when it comes to things like maintaining default settings, login times, etc.

Exactly. When I was at Purdue, they were phasing out Macs in many departments because they were �always crashing.� (These were mid-�90s models, mind you, but even so�.) Every time I went into a Mac lab, I would reboot as many computers as I could with the space bar down and disable several superfluous extensions (eg. five different graphics card drivers, three different ethernet drivers, etc.). The machines were always rock solid after that, but every night at midnight, they were right back to the default (read: wrong) configuration.

[ottawadave]

Originally posted by macintologist:
I hear about all these Windows nightmares but it isn't the case at my school. We have 2 labs filled with P4 and Celeron PCs. They are all custom built, have optical mice, no graphics necesary (it's a school), 17" monitors, all running Windows 2000 Professional. You have to log-in in order to use one and every time you do it "resets" the settings back to the student default settings. <.....snip!>.

When I was in IT we did the same thing. All machines, though, were exactly the same, and we had a clone image built with our setup (different classes). The same was true for our manufacturing. You never wanted to do support on a computer in the clean room because of all the trouble you had to get it out of the room, fix it, then get it "clean" and back into the room.

In this latter case, the systems were completely locked down though.

However, this was only a small portion of our population. Everyone else' system was a real nightmare at times (if you wanted to fix it vs recloning it).

Nightmares are not so common anymore and the systems reasonably reliable. We purchase business class machines (they cost pretty much the same as a Mac). These are not in the same category as a $500 clone! You really do get what you pay for. With SMS forcing automatic updates and recloning instead of fixing, the desktop TCO cost is considerably lower than it was 5 years ago.

I find it interesting that many people have commented on how much better Linux is. From an OS perspective, assuming you don't mess with it, this seems to be true. On that argument, on a TCO basis, this should easily beat any Mac. That assumes that the $500 clone is built with the same reliability as most Macs (sometimes, you do get lucky)

Apple is most competitive in the server realm. Not having to pay for client licenses, and the wonderful server administration software really drives down the TCO. Installing Linux on a "PC" server would bring things closer together, but then you might not have as nicely integrated a system as an XServe.

In conclusion, I do believe that the TCO argument is blown out of proportion, especially when you purchase good hardware. It's not enough to make big business migrate back to Macs.

BTW, our house is PC-free zone. I like Macs a lot. For individuals who don't have a large corporate infrastructure to support them, or who don't know a lot about maintaining a computer, they are a much better choice. I'm glad I can spend my time on our home computers doing real things (and not re-installing software and battling virus'). YMMV.

[w1bmw]

Well, parents, what about when your son moves out and you have to pay someone to fix yer box [/QUOTE]

Let's see, $100 for the neighbor kid to come over once every 6 months and re-install windows vs. the $500 a month in food, $350 a month in utilities, and the shame of having a 32 year old virgin in your basement? If I could get my son to move out, I'D GLADLY PAY THE KID NEXT DOOR TO FIX THE COMPUTER!

[rjwill246]

It's funny when you read, as was stated somewhere above that XP is now so good, even easy- with updates, virus detection etc. What about when you buy XP and install it at home? I just did for my HTPC. Interesting. I put in a DVD- nothing happened. Same thing for the CD. I had to buy PowerDVD, find and install WinAmp, WMP etc. Unbelievable.
Wi-Fi card? Did it find and automatically configure to my Airport Base Station? Nope. Completely unintuitive. Anything as good as the iLife suite? Not as far as I could tell then and have since not found any comparable apps.
I added a Sony color printer and the choices I got, after a long winding pathway I must say, didn't find the printer even though the drivers were there. I had to browse and go through many screens of 'next' before 'finish' showed up- what's with that?
It has been a good exercise doing this because I really see how far Windows users have to go to get still-not-close to the Apple experience.
Even after one week, on and off, of trying everything he knows how to do my buddy in OZ is still going nuts trying to configure his camera with AIM 5.5 so we can video chat. By contrast my son in Brisbane hooked up his iSight and we were 'on' in less than 3 minutes... that's the time it took to get his .Mac account up and running and configure iChat AV. I hope before the end of the year my friend in Adelaide will have his connection working. His TCoO? He is forever buying and upgrading his PCs. All I know, is it's way more costly than my Macs. Of course, he won't buy a Mac 'cause he still insists that they cost too much. And he gets a lot of enjoyment out of de-fragging, re-installing, cleaning his HD, adding SRPs etc. As for me, I prefer video-editing, writing my next book, using Photoshop and sometimes helping many friends (though not their not-so-welcome- referrals of others) tring to solve their Windows problems. You cant win!

[I Me Mine]

Originally posted by rjwill246:
find and install WinAmp, WMP etc. Unbelievable.

Definitely unbelievable. XP comes with WMP.

[Rave]

Newsflash!!!

Macs *are* more expensive! (with a few exceptions)

Deal with it and move on.

The rest is just fluff.

Peace

[Macanoid]

have you read any of the above at all??

[Rave]

Originally posted by Macanoid:
have you read any of the above at all??

Me?
Yeah.... Sorry...

It's true!

[Petrie]

Like Pactrick Norton said on The ScreenSavers' the other night - 'There are two kinds of computer users; those who love their Macs and those who are aggravated by Windows.'