[macroy]

Ok - bear with me here..... here's the age old question I guess. I have a Honda and an Acura that used to be serviced by an independant shop specializing in Hondas. Great shop - except now that I've moved, they're not really feasible to use anymore. So in looking around, there are no independants that specialize in Hondas around me. However, my new next door neighbor happens to own his own shop (no specialization).

Here's the question... obviously warranty repairs I'd use the dealer since it'd be no charge. But for routine/scheduled mainenance, and non warranty repairs - what are your feelings with independants that do not specialize (i.e. my neighbor)? Does it matter? In doing some research - I'm hearing conflicting thoughts - one side says that generic independants won't do as well of a job because they may not have the code readers or diagnostic software for your make/model (and that even non-specialized shops are dying out because cars are so complicated to diagnose these days) ... But the other side is stating that a car is still a car, and the software is fairly cheap, so most will be able to do the job even if they don't specialize.

Given the lack of honda specialists... I'm actually considering the dealer if I can't get a warm and fuzzy about the non-specialized shops. I know I can just ask my neighbor... but given we just met, I rather not pose that question yet as it can be taken as me questioning his skills/capabilities.

[turtle777]

I dunno.

I happen to go to my dealership for everything. I have no clue about cars, so I can't judge who might have a clue or not. So I have to hope that the dealership has more expertise and doesn't just rip me off.

-t

[Doofy]

Depends on the bit of the car I want sorting.

Regular maintenance? Any old reliable generic garage.

Engine work? Specialist only. I've had a fair few engines screwed up from taking them to generic garages and I've learnt my lesson about that.

[Railroader]

Around here every shop specializes in GM cars so it's a non-issue for me. One of the benefits of driving what 75% of the people around here drive.

There are a few shops that specialize in certain foreign brands, but they don't seem to do very well around here.

[gargamel123]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Around here every shop specializes in GM cars so it's a non-issue for me. One of the benefits of driving what 75% of the people around here drive.

There are a few shops that specialize in certain foreign brands, but they don't seem to do very well around here.

Do you make school busses? My bus is currently broken

Oh and the reason there are so many GM shop around there isn't due to the amount of people driving them it is because they are always in need of repair.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by gargamel123 

Do you make school busses? My bus is currently broken

Oh and the reason there are so many GM shop around there isn't due to the amount of people driving them it is because they are always in need of repair.

GM's school busses are complete ass... They get really poor economy, and break down all the time. Their manufacturing must have really taken a turn for the worse, because back in the day you could drive one around town and all the kids would be happy. Nowadays, it's hard to find one where the windshield wipers don't fall off (literally).

Somebody should fix their assembly lines.

[ghporter]

I'm with Doofy; for an oil change or tire rotation, it is far less critical who you take the car to than, say a brake job or (shudder) a timing belt change. Yes, I said brake jobs are shop-dependent. It's all well and good to say that brakes are brakes, but if the shop doesn't have exactly the right pads, what are they going to do? If they are careful, they'll properly retorque the caliper bolts, properly manage the brake fluid (ever compress a caliper piston without remembering that you just topped off the fluid two weeks ago? Bad stuff!), and even do a short rolling test to make sure both that the brake fluid is getting to the brakes (scary if they don't!) and that there's no pulling from a pad that isn't properly seated.

And my Honda goes to the dealership for ANYTHING that involves hardware under the hood. Honda has proven to be a stand-up company when it comes to their service, at least for us. We had one of our cars in for a regular valve timing check, and just after we got it back, the engine started sounding like they'd put marbles into the valve cover. We took it right back and it turned out that the distributor had decided to start falling apart at just that moment. Honda (not the dealer) ate $600 worth of parts and labor on that because of the particular timing of the failure. Yes, I'm pretty well a permanent Honda customer.

[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

GM's school busses are complete ass...

The folks who drive the GM busses are complete ass too.

Originally Posted by macroy 

I'm actually considering the dealer if I can't get a warm and fuzzy about the non-specialized shops.

Why exactly would you avoid the dealer in the first place? It is true that some dealerships are crooks and routine maintenance is often done by mechanics in training, but look on the bright side, they have all the parts in stock and at least somebody in the shop should know your make inside and out.

[besson3c]

I'm sick of GM dealers telling me I need to change my oil and do all this other stuff. I paid good money for my car, it shouldn't need to be babied like that, and people shouldn't tell me what to do with my car. I don't need to oil my old school bus, so I shouldn't have to oil my car.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by iMOTOR 

The folks who drive the GM busses are complete ass too.

It's not the consumer's fault that GM can't make a good school bus. I know this person who bought a GM school bus one time, and they shipped it with four obviously different sized tires! How lame is that?

[gargamel123]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It's not the consumer's fault that GM can't make a good school bus. I know this person who bought a GM school bus one time, and they shipped it with four obviously different sized tires! How lame is that?

That happened on my bus too. No wonder GM can't make any money they are too busy replacing tires.

[Railroader]

nevermind...

[gargamel123]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

nevermind...

nice reply

[centerchannel68]

Basically, a good shop is a good shop is a good shop. They'll all have certified mechanics, or guys who have been fixing cars their whole lives, so I really don't see how it's an issue, ESPECIALLY if it's something as 'common' as a honda or acura. Almost anybody can work on them, they're not very complex cars in comparison to anything else, so it should be a non issue. All cars function pretty much the same.

When my SVX was stranded in the UP years ago, I got it repaired at a place that worked on anything, and they worked on it fine, actually better than that, they showed me all the things WRONG with whoever had recently done the timing belt screwed up, including a cracked timinng belt case, a regular standard bolt just screwed right into my block instead of a metric one, and a cracked radiator neck from overtightening the radiator hose....

All of these 'mistakes' were caused by the previous shop that worked on my car: DON MILLER SUBARU, the subaru dealership in Madison, WI.

Anyway, if you had some weird car, like a pretty rare car with awd with and a boxer engine that was only used in just that car and transmissions were super complex and cost almost 4 grand, then yeah.... I can see why finding someone who's worked on one before is worth it, but even then it's not really a big deal. Almost any shop is going to have access to 'alldata', a computer based subscription that allows mechanics access to the repair manuals for almost anything, even my SVX.

As for 'specialized code reading' software, that's just bullshit. All cars built after 1994 are OBD II compliant, which means they are all unversal in nature. OBD 1 was a more proprietary system that you needed to decode using factory information, but taht was only used in the late 80s early 90s. Anything post 1993ish has OBD II, which is very easy to read.

In summary: No. It doesn't matter. Especially for a freakin' honda/acura.

[gargamel123]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Basically, a good shop is a good shop is a good shop. They'll all have certified mechanics, or guys who have been fixing cars their whole lives, so I really don't see how it's an issue, ESPECIALLY if it's something as 'common' as a honda or acura. Almost anybody can work on them, they're not very complex cars in comparison to anything else, so it should be a non issue. All cars function pretty much the same.

When my SVX was stranded in the UP years ago, I got it repaired at a place that worked on anything, and they worked on it fine, actually better than that, they showed me all the things WRONG with whoever had recently done the timing belt screwed up, including a cracked timinng belt case, a regular standard bolt just screwed right into my block instead of a metric one, and a cracked radiator neck from overtightening the radiator hose....

All of these 'mistakes' were caused by the previous shop that worked on my car: DON MILLER SUBARU, the subaru dealership in Madison, WI.

Anyway, if you had some weird car, like a pretty rare car with awd with and a boxer engine that was only used in just that car and transmissions were super complex and cost almost 4 grand, then yeah.... I can see why finding someone who's worked on one before is worth it, but even then it's not really a big deal. Almost any shop is going to have access to 'alldata', a computer based subscription that allows mechanics access to the repair manuals for almost anything, even my SVX.

As for 'specialized code reading' software, that's just bullshit. All cars built after 1994 are OBD II compliant, which means they are all unversal in nature. OBD 1 was a more proprietary system that you needed to decode using factory information, but taht was only used in the late 80s early 90s. Anything post 1993ish has OBD II, which is very easy to read.

In summary: No. It doesn't matter. Especially for a freakin' honda/acura.

I have to say I agree. All of my bad experiences were with dealers. Most indepentdent garages stay on top of stuff because they depend on the money they make and if they are bad word gets around. The indie people depend on a good reputation. Dealers depend on people that travel through or those that go to the dealer because the manual says they should.

[andi*pandi]

that dealer must suck, Rob.

I once tried to have a local shop fix my subaru's timing belt. Reputable, been around for 20 years. They ordered the belt from the dealer, marked up the cost, then forgot to order new gaskets to go with it... not knowing that they'd break the gaskets to get in there. They put the broken gaskets back on it, and then acted surprised when I pulled it back in there because of burning oil all over the place. Dumbasses.

The dealer may cost more per hour, but if it's anything other than an oil change/tires rotated, it goes to the dealer.

[besson3c]

Tip: it is very hard to renew your school bus license with a DUI.

[gargamel123]

Hey rob will you help me repair my bus. I'm not real sure what is wrong with it at this point but between the two of us I think we can get it up and running again. Once it's running I will take it to South Dakota to see how fast she will go down I90.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

As for 'specialized code reading' software, that's just bullshit. All cars built after 1994 are OBD II compliant, which means they are all unversal in nature. OBD 1 was a more proprietary system that you needed to decode using factory information, but taht was only used in the late 80s early 90s. Anything post 1993ish has OBD II, which is very easy to read.

1996 to be safe.

All cars built since January 1, 1996 have OBD-II systems. Manufacturers started incorporating OBD-II in various models as early as 1994. Some early OBD-II cars were not 100% compliant. <Click here> to see the dates OBD-II started being included on specific makes and models.

[Dork.]

As Rob said, a good shop is a good shop. Simply being a specialist doesn't make them better, although you can argue that a specialist that doesn't have a good reputation doesn't last very long, while a dealer with a bad reputation can last much longer simply on the people who will always take their car back to the dealer for work without question.

Mass-market Japanese cars are getting common enough now that a shop can't help but see quite a few over the years. (Heck, I know someone who insists on buying American-made cars, so he just bought a Toyota Camry....)

I take my Jetta to a German import specialist near my house, and my Subaru to the Subaru dealer. The VW specialist has an excellent reputation. The Subaru dealer is not quite as stellar, but they at least haven't screwed me over yet, and the car is new enough to not need any significant work yet.

[flyordiedays]

I've been using a local mechanic for years. He's very honest and fair on the price, and doesn't ever fix other problems without consulting with you first. He fixes pretty much any type of car, and has had no problems with my honda or my ford.

[macroy]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

As for 'specialized code reading' software, that's just bullshit. All cars built after 1994 are OBD II compliant, which means they are all unversal in nature. OBD 1 was a more proprietary system that you needed to decode using factory information, but taht was only used in the late 80s early 90s. Anything post 1993ish has OBD II, which is very easy to read.

Guess that was the biggest "concern" for me. But guess that settles it... need to ask the o'l neighbor how busy he is this week .

Funny too.. in doing more research - I'm also starting to learn how many folks actually LIKE Honda dealers.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

[Railroader]

When's the last time anyone had to actually take their car in for repairs?

The last time for me was in 1998 for a bad starter that was covered under warranty. Before that it was 1996 for a O2 sensor that was also covered under warranty. I just took them to the dealer because it was free.

My oil changes are all done at a quick lube place attached to a Chrysler dealership. They have the best magazines and TV channel selections. Plus they vacuum the carpets.

[gargamel123]

I have a sable for general transportation and it is always getting something fixed. Right now the O2 sensor needs replacing. I would do some of the repairs myself but I don't have time and a lot of the parts are inaccessable without taking several other things off first. I had to take it in to have the spark plugs changed and that took the mechanic 8 hours to do since so many other things had to be removed. I guess that is what I get for having a DOHC ford motor. I love the gas mileage and power the thing can put out though. I put around 30,000 miles on it a year so I expect to have a few more problems since it is always on the go. I rarely ever go to a dealer for repairs though since most ford dealers seem to suck and they charge way too much for labor. I had one dealer (in Cedar City Utah) charge $550 for a themostat but ford corp. reversed the charges.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

that dealer must suck, Rob.

I once tried to have a local shop fix my subaru's timing belt. Reputable, been around for 20 years. They ordered the belt from the dealer, marked up the cost, then forgot to order new gaskets to go with it... not knowing that they'd break the gaskets to get in there. They put the broken gaskets back on it, and then acted surprised when I pulled it back in there because of burning oil all over the place. Dumbasses.

The dealer may cost more per hour, but if it's anything other than an oil change/tires rotated, it goes to the dealer.

Actually no. The poster above you summed it up nicely. Dealers cost a lot more, because they like to sucker people into thinking they're the only ones who can fix your car correctly. I got news for you: I'm not a certified mechanic, and I can change timing belts, plugs, transmissions, do brakework, exhaust work, bla bla bla bla bla. It's really never a very difficult process. It's just a long list of very, very simple steps.

That shop must suck Andi. No offense, but maybe instead of just going to a shop that's been around a while, you should have asked around. You ALWAYS replace the timing belt cover gaskets when doing that, just for that reason... usually the cam seals too, and sometimes the crank seal since you're already in there. Subies just love to 'seep' a little through those.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by macroy 

Guess that was the biggest "concern" for me. But guess that settles it... need to ask the o'l neighbor how busy he is this week .

Funny too.. in doing more research - I'm also starting to learn how many folks actually LIKE Honda dealers.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

They're nice, but I'm not impressed. My sisters (now mine) 1992 accord had it's transmission fail, at around 140k. It had all the 'regular maintenence done'. My mom took it to the honda dealer religiously. I went through her records, and I can't find any record of them ever changing the automatic transmission fluid in the last 100,000 miles or so. Also, in the inner doorhandle broke, so they fixed it with some cheap not even real honda part, I think, as the chrome is a lot crappier, and it's starting to peel off like latex paint. The stock handles are fine.

My point is that if they had changed the freaking fluid the transmission probably wouldn't have failed.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

When's the last time anyone had to actually take their car in for repairs?

The last time for me was in 1998 for a bad starter that was covered under warranty. Before that it was 1996 for a O2 sensor that was also covered under warranty. I just took them to the dealer because it was free.

My oil changes are all done at a quick lube place attached to a Chrysler dealership. They have the best magazines and TV channel selections. Plus they vacuum the carpets.

The wife's accord's brakes failed while I was driving it last summer... had to use the parking brake to stop it for a day... it sucked. Anyway, the thing has drums, and I HATE working on drumbrakes, so I took it to a shop that redid the cylinders, and then the master cylinder.

I took the other accord to 'jiffy lube' once (it was my mom's car at the time and I don't work on her stuff), and the pimply 17 yr **** working there used an air wrench to put on drain plug, and stripped all the threads. AVOID QUICK OIL CHANGE PLACES. They usually have high schoolers and other incompetents working there. If it's attached to a dealership, it MIGHT be okay...but man... I'd just rather do simple stuff myself, that way I know some idiot didn't screw it up.

[centerchannel68]

Oh yeah, this was good too: I quoted the subaru dealership to see how much they charged for replacing a rear wheel bearing. ONE.

Price? Over $800.

Instead I took it to a nice, clean shop out in the country, 30 minutes away. Price? $275. Plus they cut off all my heatshields, and put in two new struts that I had.

[gargamel123]

I have a mechanic that I go to that is great. He is older and doesn't move around as fast as he used to but he knows his stuff. He can tell what is wrong most of the time by just listening to the car run or taking it for a drive. He charges by what the book says it should take to finish a job even if it takes him longer. Many times he will go ahead and fix minor things without charging. He got me a switch for my windows for like $5 new from the dealer. If I went out to the dealer to buy it I would have paid $25. I did install the switch myself since it was only going to be a two minute ordeal.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by gargamel123 

I have a mechanic that I go to that is great. He is older and doesn't move around as fast as he used to but he knows his stuff. He can tell what is wrong most of the time by just listening to the car run or taking it for a drive. He charges by what the book says it should take to finish a job even if it takes him longer. Many times he will go ahead and fix minor things without charging. He got me a switch for my windows for like $5 new from the dealer. If I went out to the dealer to buy it I would have paid $25. I did install the switch myself since it was only going to be a two minute ordeal.

Does he work on school busses?

[gargamel123]

No his garage isn't that big and my school bus is currently stuck in my driveway. That is why I was hoping maybe rob could help me get it running.

[centerchannel68]

I dunno about school buses. I'd get a truck repair book... it's probably pretty much a bigger version of the same thing.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

I dunno about school buses. I'd get a truck repair book... it's probably pretty much a bigger version of the same thing.

I don't know about that. Trucks usually don't have that red stop sign that comes out the side.

[iMOTOR]

I'll show you the BEST SCHOOL BUS in the world:











Never ever needs maintenance!

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Actually no. The poster above you summed it up nicely. Dealers cost a lot more, because they like to sucker people into thinking they're the only ones who can fix your car correctly. I got news for you: I'm not a certified mechanic, and I can change timing belts, plugs, transmissions, do brakework, exhaust work, bla bla bla bla bla. It's really never a very difficult process. It's just a long list of very, very simple steps.

That shop must suck Andi. No offense, but maybe instead of just going to a shop that's been around a while, you should have asked around. You ALWAYS replace the timing belt cover gaskets when doing that, just for that reason... usually the cam seals too, and sometimes the crank seal since you're already in there. Subies just love to 'seep' a little through those.

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

They're nice, but I'm not impressed. My sisters (now mine) 1992 accord had it's transmission fail, at around 140k. It had all the 'regular maintenence done'. My mom took it to the honda dealer religiously. I went through her records, and I can't find any record of them ever changing the automatic transmission fluid in the last 100,000 miles or so. Also, in the inner doorhandle broke, so they fixed it with some cheap not even real honda part, I think, as the chrome is a lot crappier, and it's starting to peel off like latex paint. The stock handles are fine.

My point is that if they had changed the freaking fluid the transmission probably wouldn't have failed.

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

The wife's accord's brakes failed while I was driving it last summer... had to use the parking brake to stop it for a day... it sucked. Anyway, the thing has drums, and I HATE working on drumbrakes, so I took it to a shop that redid the cylinders, and then the master cylinder.

I took the other accord to 'jiffy lube' once (it was my mom's car at the time and I don't work on her stuff), and the pimply 17 yr **** working there used an air wrench to put on drain plug, and stripped all the threads. AVOID QUICK OIL CHANGE PLACES. They usually have high schoolers and other incompetents working there. If it's attached to a dealership, it MIGHT be okay...but man... I'd just rather do simple stuff myself, that way I know some idiot didn't screw it up.

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Oh yeah, this was good too: I quoted the subaru dealership to see how much they charged for replacing a rear wheel bearing. ONE.

Price? Over $800.

Instead I took it to a nice, clean shop out in the country, 30 minutes away. Price? $275. Plus they cut off all my heatshields, and put in two new struts that I had.

It's amazing. Not even kidding.

[centerchannel68]

I don't DO multi-quote.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by iMOTOR 

I'll show you the BEST SCHOOL BUS in the world:











Never ever needs maintenance!

Not a GM school bus... Not surprised.

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

That shop must suck Andi. No offense, but maybe instead of just going to a shop that's been around a while, you should have asked around. You ALWAYS replace the timing belt cover gaskets when doing that, just for that reason... usually the cam seals too, and sometimes the crank seal since you're already in there. Subies just love to 'seep' a little through those.

There's no disagreement, they certainly do suck. I was new to the area and didn't know any good places, so I did ask around. They came recommended. And despite all the Subarus running around new england, I haven't found a small local repair shop in MA that I trust yet. Several times with my most recent Subaru, I drove to Maine where my sister had a good garage guy specializing in Subarus. He put in new clutch for 1/2 the dealer price. I even had it towed to him once. But that's not exactly convenient for most things.

[centerchannel68]

Then I'd say your location sucks. To a lot of the country, dealerships are fairly far away. Even if your favorite shop is far away, I'd still do it. To me, it's worth driving 45min-1.5 hours away to save $200-800, and getting quality work.

[andi*pandi]

3 hours away though? Both ways? You're talking a day off just to get the car to the shop, when there's 5 dealers within 25 miles.

I'd be happy if any MA folk spoke up and recommended a good car guy.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

3 hours away though? Both ways? You're talking a day off just to get the car to the shop, when there's 5 dealers within 25 miles.

I'd be happy if any MA folk spoke up and recommended a good car guy.

Do you make more than $400 in one day? I don't.

[Gankdawg]

IIRC, Consumer Reports released a survey a couple years back stating that satisfaction from dealers was dead last. The independents always came out on top. They key is referrals, ask around. People will tell you the good and the bad.

[typoon]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I'm with Doofy; for an oil change or tire rotation, it is far less critical who you take the car to than, say a brake job or (shudder) a timing belt change. Yes, I said brake jobs are shop-dependent. It's all well and good to say that brakes are brakes, but if the shop doesn't have exactly the right pads, what are they going to do? If they are careful, they'll properly retorque the caliper bolts, properly manage the brake fluid (ever compress a caliper piston without remembering that you just topped off the fluid two weeks ago? Bad stuff!), and even do a short rolling test to make sure both that the brake fluid is getting to the brakes (scary if they don't!) and that there's no pulling from a pad that isn't properly seated.

And my Honda goes to the dealership for ANYTHING that involves hardware under the hood. Honda has proven to be a stand-up company when it comes to their service, at least for us. We had one of our cars in for a regular valve timing check, and just after we got it back, the engine started sounding like they'd put marbles into the valve cover. We took it right back and it turned out that the distributor had decided to start falling apart at just that moment. Honda (not the dealer) ate $600 worth of parts and labor on that because of the particular timing of the failure. Yes, I'm pretty well a permanent Honda customer.

The only problem I see with going just about anywhere even the dealership for Brakes is that they "cut" (resurface) the rotors almost all the time then just put new pads on. That makes you have to replace pads much quicker than if they replace rotors and pads. It costs more to do that's most likely why they don't do it. It's a Brake job that will cost you 250-300 as opposed to 600 + if they gave you new rotors and pads when you replaced brakes.

[centerchannel68]

That's the other thing... whoever said they go to the dealer for brake work because they just get the 'right' pads... that's crap man. Factory pads are usually pathetically poor performers, and instead try to achieve low brake dust, and as little noise as possible. The problem? Pads of taht nature usually have a very low maximum temperature, and it's very easy to overheat them in one moderate stop, creating uneven pad deposits on your rotors, thus getting the so called 'warped' rotors. I put performance pads with a retardedly high temperature max on my SVX... they dust a lot... they're not as quiet (but still quiet), and I've NEVER had warped rotors.