[besson3c]

Aron, do you pronounce your name "A-ron" or "Aaron"?

[besson3c]

Dave Simon:

have you checked out iTerm? Much nicer Terminal that offers the ability to create tabs, as well as a host of other features.... For a while development was stagnant on it, but it has since been picked up and is now a very solid open source product.

Also, have you ever played around with mounting your web server home directory via SSHfs? I find that this is a nice way to take FTP/SFTP out of the picture.

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom 

OK, here's a concrete example of how TextMate rocks and DW sucks:

[snip}
Do I really have to give a specific example of how CSSEdit beats DW? Because I can.

Okay, I don't love DW, but it is, for many, a necessary tool. So, in keeping with you flavor of comparison…

Please paste a 10 page word doc with 5% bold and italics in any app other than DW and show me preserved styles...

or...

Take any 10 page flat text file with 12 subheads each to be h3 and show me any app that can convert each line from p to h3 in one keystroke each

or...

Just try to get flat text from the copy group… .doc my friend… it is how they work.

See, the point is not that DW rules or sucks. The point is you do not like it and your out of hand dismissal is an expression of you limited experience in certain areas.

DW is a bloated, ugly slow nasty POS that still gets the job done in many areas in ways text editors and a few other toolbox apps can not.

I wish I could use TextEdit TextMate (sorry, Allan) and CSSEdit all day. But that isn't reality…

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by :dragonflypro: 

I wish I could use TextEdit and CSSEdit all day. But that isn't reality…

TextMate, dude. TextEdit is really not up to par for coding!

[besson3c]

dragonfly: What is your experience with OpenOffice HTML export? It seems to work far better than Word, but that's not saying much.

Several years ago, I used to use it to automate Word -> HTML stuff.

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

TextMate, dude. TextEdit is really not up to par for coding!

My bad. I make this mistake after a year with it. TextMate. Fixed..

[brokenjago]

I just think it's funny that I was called a fanboy by a guy whose sig is made up of Adobe CS3 icon imitations.

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

dragonfly: What is your experience with OpenOffice HTML export? It seems to work far better than Word, but that's not saying much.

Several years ago, I used to use it to automate Word -> HTML stuff.

That is just it, it isn't an export. It is the literal copy and paste from the doc to the DW design window… no file saving or exporting at all. Cut/Paste. Heh, don't even get me started on Track Changes. Freakin' writers.

I have yet to see anything that will 'export' html without a bunch of nasty inline styles, Pages included.

[besson3c]

OpenOffice did a decent job for me, just going for semantic stuff and not worrying too much about styles beyond just font sizes. Besides, trying to retain font faces and colors seems like a pretty bonehead thing to try to do.

[Aron Peterson]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Aron, do you pronounce your name "A-ron" or "Aaron"?

I haven't spoken to myself for a very long time so I'm not sure

[Aron Peterson]

Um, each one you can open in a new tab.

Would never have guessed! Everything in it's own tab is an admittance the interface is cluttered and the single window interface philosophy is time consuming. If you don't have a large monitor you have to switch from tab to tab all the time and can't see your code, pages and css at the same time.

Look at it this way - how much is a license for DW? How much is Coda? The difference is enough to buy a pretty nice monitor.

True. But the time I'll save with Dreamweaver will pay for a monitor in a week anyway.

Besides, it isn't like DW has a compact interface!

It has a multi-pane interface. That's what I am in favor of. That's what makes the most popular IDE apps so useful for the majority.

DW, anymore, is for graphic designers who want to do some web work. People who make their living coding sites hand-code.

Oh god....

First you make the assumption that because I corrected some lies abour DW that I must only like DW and everything else is sh!t (typical fanboyism). Then you present the same misinformation about DW that I corrected without noting that something like Coda is even more of a WYSIWYG app than DW could dream of being.

Toby answered you back best:

"See, the point is not that DW rules or sucks. The point is you do not like it and your out of hand dismissal is an expression of you limited experience in certain areas."

I just think it's funny that I was called a fanboy by a guy whose sig is made up of Adobe CS3 icon imitations.

And if you had a complex sense of humor you might understand the parody in my signature. Having to explain comedy to you doesn't put you in a good light.

[CaptainHaddock]

There's no denying, the cutting edge designers who've been pushing clean design, usability, accessibility, and web standards, ditched WYSIWYG editing and Dreamweaver long ago. I have several dozen blogs by such designers in my news aggregator, and I don't think one of them has ever mentioned Dreamweaver. They all hand-code and typically use apps like BBedit, Textmate, skEdit, etc.

Not that Dreamweaver sucks or anything; who knows, maybe the majority of the not-so-leading-edge web design industry uses it; but for me and many others, they dropped the ball long ago with half-baked (at the time) style sheet and web standards support. Now that the age of table-soup design and clunky Javascript menus is over, there's just not as much need for Dreamweaver. The things it used to automate don't need automating any longer.

I speculate that the next killer app for web design will integrate efficient text editing with Javascript component and effects libraries (Prototype, Moo.fx, Lightbox JS, etc.). Maybe that app will be Coda 2.0.

[Aron Peterson]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaddock 

There's no denying, the cutting edge designers who've been pushing clean design, usability, accessibility, and web standards, ditched WYSIWYG editing and Dreamweaver long ago. I have several dozen blogs by such designers in my news aggregator, and I don't think one of them has ever mentioned Dreamweaver. They all hand-code and typically use apps like BBedit, Textmate, skEdit, etc.

Wrong again. Most blogs and websites are designed by Windows (sadly) users using Dreamweaver. The three apps you mentioned are very good to use, but again you're contributing to some minority myth that Dreamweaver is a WYSIWYG app that doesn't push clean design, usability, accessibility, and web standards. That's unbelievably bad misinformation. Saying it again and again won't make it true.

Not that Dreamweaver sucks or anything; who knows, maybe the majority of the not-so-leading-edge web design industry uses it

Yes, they do.

they dropped the ball long ago with half-baked (at the time) style sheet and web standards support. Now that the age of table-soup design and clunky Javascript menus is over

Table soup design and clunky Javascript menus are created by coders, not apps. Dreamweaver starts with a clean, compliant page. What you put in it is up to you. In that respect Dreamweaver and Coda are identical.

I hope you realize soon that Dreamweaver points out errors and non-compliancy. It will tell you if your code doesn't validate against all the standards. It also has an accessability report tool.

I speculate that the next killer app for web design will integrate efficient text editing with Javascript component and effects libraries (Prototype, Moo.fx, Lightbox JS, etc.)

This is where it gets funny. Dreamweaver CS3 incorporates Spry framework, Adobe's cross browser compatible implementation of Ajax. The code is tight, efficient, easy to edit. You can build Spry/Ajax/javascript menus and effects very quickly and Dreamweaver will attach easy-to-edit stylesheets and javascripts to the head of your document saving you a lot of time. No other app does that.

Read here (you should have in the first place)

Adobe - Adobe Dreamweaver CS3: Features

Click on the presentations for the Spry framework.

Macworld: News: Dreamweaver CS3 integrates Spry framework for Ajax

Macworld: First Look: Creative Suite preview: Dreamweaver CS3

The most glamorous new addition to the program is a set of tools for adding dynamic layout elements and visual effects to your Web pages. Based on the “Spry Framework” (a collection of JavaScript programs developed by Adobe), these new features make it easy to add pop-up navigational menus, validate HTML forms, include complex, animated, visual effects, and add interactive data tables.

Any more misinformation to correct, please go ahead.

[besson3c]

Aron, I still want to know where you get your information from pertaining to Dreamweaver usage and popularity.

[Aron Peterson]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Aron, I still want to know where you get your information from pertaining to Dreamweaver usage and popularity.

A lot of designers. The most unusual thing I have found though is that some of the really bleeding edge designers and coders come from areas like New Orleans and Houston. Some very clever coders, they do amazing Ajax stuff. All Dreamweaver users to the core, though that doesn't mean they can't do the same thing in other apps.

[besson3c]

So, your empirical evidence... so, the 90% was just your gut feeling?

[Aron Peterson]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

So, your empirical evidence... so, the 90% was just your gut feeling?

Try harder to mock, Bess. One day ago you didn't know Dreamweaver integrated with MySQL or could produce dynamic database driven sites. Last week you tried to patronise me on Linux even though you hadn't the experience then too.

So who is going by gut feeling?

[besson3c]

Here is how I figure things:

- Last I checked, Apache web servers accounted for 60% of all web servers on the net, and Apache runs better on Linux/Unix

- I can't remember the ratio of Linux based web hosts vs. Windows, but I'm certain that the number is far greater than 10% Linux

- If you're developing in a Windows environment like all of your designer friends, chances are you are doing Coldfusion, ASP/.Net, etc. right? These are the preferred languages for Windows servers.

- Talk to any cutting edge programmers and most will tell you that Python and Ruby/Ruby on Rails are their favorite languages, the latter being the up and coming web framework.

- Python, Ruby on Rails (and PHP) are probably going to be happening on a Unix platform, and all of these Unix environments are not going to be running Coldfusion or ASP/.Net junk

Therefore, Windows web programmers do not make up 90%. You said that most blogs and cutting edge sites are made up of Windows Dreamweaver users. I know that "most" does not equal 90%, but I'd argue that this number isn't even 70%.

Admittedly, all stats and numbers are flawed to some extent (including these, I'm sure), but, just adding this to the mix.

[CaptainHaddock]

Originally Posted by Aron Peterson 

Wrong again. Most blogs and websites are designed by Windows (sadly) users using Dreamweaver.

Well, see what I wrote again. The cutting edge designers and bloggers who've led the push for web standards and good design include names like Eric Meyer, Jeffrey Zeldman, Dave Shea (CSS Zen Garden), Khoi Vinh, Shaun Inman, etc. — the list goes on. None of these people use Dreamweaver as far as I can tell, or have many nice things to say about it if they mention it at all.

The three apps you mentioned are very good to use, but again you're contributing to some minority myth that Dreamweaver is a WYSIWYG app that doesn't push clean design, usability, accessibility, and web standards.

Well, if Dreamweaver has (at last) improved over the last few years, it's thanks designers like those above who dragged the rest of us into more accessible, well-designed Web. They led, Dreamweaver followed — and still follows.

Mr. Vinh, who just oversaw a brilliant redesign of the New York Times among other things, had this to say recently about the state of the "big" apps:

Even Fireworks has seen scant improvements in the past several years, and I don’t count Macromedia Dreamweaver, which I’m not sure anyone should seriously use as either a comping tool or a production-ready coding tool.

He's twice the expert I am.

I hope you realize soon that Dreamweaver points out errors and non-compliancy. It will tell you if your code doesn't validate against all the standards. It also has an accessability report tool.

And I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts Dreamweaver still can't embed Flash (Macromedia's own invention) in a standards-compliant manner without using the obsolete "embed" tag. I'd like to be proven wrong.

And that Spry Javascript-Ajax stuff. Does it sit out of the way and stay separate from your website's logical mark-up and styling? I suspect not; Dreamweaver probably still fills your page with clumsy Javascript functions and function calls. That was certainly how the Dreamweaver I knew worked. Again, I'd like to be proven wrong.

Now, it sounds like Dreamweaver has greatly improved since I and most designers interested in clean code abandoned it some years back. Still, for many years, a "designer" who loved using Dreamweaver was a designer who had no clue about web standards or accessibility and had simply graduated from FrontPage.

If you and your buddies in Bombay like Dreamweaver, I've no problem with that. If Macromedia and Adobe are finally making it into a decent program, good for them. It's telling, though, that sites as beautiful and clean as Panic's are done with programs like Coda, and not Dreamweaver.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Aron Peterson 

Try harder to mock, Bess. One day ago you didn't know Dreamweaver integrated with MySQL or could produce dynamic database driven sites. Last week you tried to patronise me on Linux even though you hadn't the experience then too.

So who is going by gut feeling?

Dreamweaver is not doing a single thing with MySQL unless the MySQL server permits connections via a particular username from a particular host. Most public ISPs I know of prohibit connections to and from all DB servers outside of localhost, for good reason, and many users are not on static IPs. I asked before whether this bridge was ODBC based, as I'm assuming it is, but you haven't answered yet.

I thought that my asking your source and justification for the numbers you cited was a reasonable question, I suppose not...

[Aron Peterson]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaddock 

Well, see what I wrote again. The cutting edge designers and bloggers who've led the push for web standards and good design include names like Eric Meyer, Jeffrey Zeldman, Dave Shea (CSS Zen Garden), Khoi Vinh, Shaun Inman, etc. — the list goes on. None of these people use Dreamweaver as far as I can tell, or have many nice things to say about it if they mention it at all.

I wouldn't quote names if they don't agree with you because they would be just as comfortable in DW as anything else.

Well, if Dreamweaver has (at last) improved over the last few years, it's thanks designers like those above who dragged the rest of us into more accessible, well-designed Web. They led, Dreamweaver followed — and still follows.

That goes for all software. DW hasn't lagged behind like you think it has.

Mr. Vinh, who just oversaw a brilliant redesign of the New York Times among other things, had this to say recently about the state of the "big" apps:

Even Fireworks has seen scant improvements in the past several years, and I don’t count Macromedia Dreamweaver, which I’m not sure anyone should seriously use as either a comping tool or a production-ready coding tool.

One man's opinion. Many others would disagree.

Re: Comping tool. How many coding apps let you use a comp as a tracing image to prep your layout design? DW and...

He's twice the expert I am.

You're not an expert at all. If you were you would have at the very least known about DW's Ajax framework.

And I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts Dreamweaver still can't embed Flash (Macromedia's own invention) in a standards-compliant manner without using the obsolete "embed" tag. I'd like to be proven wrong.

Whether it does or not, code it the way you want it.

And that Spry Javascript-Ajax stuff. Does it sit out of the way and stay separate from your website's logical mark-up and styling? I suspect not.

That's the problem. You 'suspect'. Having an opinion on software requires experience and some reading up, not suspicions.

Dreamweaver probably still fills your page with clumsy Javascript functions and function calls.

Words like 'probably' again mean you don't know much about it.

Now, it sounds like Dreamweaver has greatly improved since I and most designers interested in clean code abandoned it some years back.

Keep telling yourself 'most' designers abandoned it some years back. It still won't be true. Repeating an untruth might fool UFO believers but when it comes to software the truth is only a downloaded demo away.

It's telling, though, that sites as beautiful and clean as Panic's are done with programs like Coda, and not Dreamweaver.

Panic's site (any site) could be done with a TextEdit if you wanted to, so I don't know what you're trying to say here. Coda offers no advantage over Dreamweaver at this point. It's disadvantage lies in a limited tabbed single window interface and other things noted by myself and others earlier on.

Again and again, read up or download a demo before you 'suspect' or come up with theories about an app you haven't used.

[Aron Peterson]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Dreamweaver is not doing a single thing with MySQL unless the MySQL server permits connections via a particular username from a particular host. Most public ISPs I know of prohibit connections to and and all DB servers outside of localhost, for good reason, and many users are not on static IPs. I asked before whether this bridge was ODBC based, as I'm assuming it is, but you haven't answered yet..

Wrong on all counts with funny jumbly English.

[CaptainHaddock]

Originally Posted by Aron Peterson 

You're not an expert at all…
That's the problem. You 'suspect'. … Words like 'probably' again mean you don't know much about it. … Again and again, read up or download a demo before you 'suspect' or come up with theories about an app you haven't used.

There's no need to be so defensive or, well, whiny. If these facts about Dreamweaver have changed, say so. If not, just move on. We all get the picture on how much you like Dreamweaver.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Aron Peterson 

Wrong on all counts with funny jumbly English.

I've corrected my one word typo that phased you...

So, are you going to correct me now? Can you?

K. Thanks.

[Aron Peterson]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Here is how I figure things:

- Last I checked, Apache web servers accounted for 60% of all web servers on the net, and Apache runs better on Linux/Unix

So? That's irrelevant. You can design and code with any apps you want regardless of whether the server is Linux or Windows.

- If you're developing in a Windows environment like all of your designer friends, chances are you are doing Coldfusion, ASP/.Net, etc. right? These are the preferred languages for Windows servers.

I didn't say they were 'all' Windows. You have assumed that because you tend to assume a lot of untrue things. You can also develop on any environment you want regardless of the server. Use Dreamweaver with a Mac or Windows to develop for a Windows Server or Apache.

- Talk to any cutting edge programmers and most will tell you that Python and Ruby/Ruby on Rails are their favorite languages, the latter being the up and coming web framework.

So?

- Python, Ruby on Rails (and PHP) are probably going to be happening on a Unix platform, and all of these Unix environments are not going to be running Coldfusion or ASP/.Net junk

So here we go...

Therefore, Windows web programmers do not make up 90%.

Well, yes they do. The majority of developers Windows web programmers using Dreamweaver together with other apps in conjunction with Linux Apache servers. They're developing dynamic database driven sites with PHP, Ajax, MySQL, and Ruby.

You have 'assumed' (many assumptions by yourself as usual) that if one uses Windows with Dreamweaver then they can only be developing for Windows 2003 Server or .Net. Mind boggling theory.

Get an education, Bess.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaddock 

There's no need to be so defensive or, well, whiny. If these facts about Dreamweaver have changed, say so. If not, just move on. We all get the picture on how much you like Dreamweaver.

It's funny how we're expected to know everything about a tool we abandoned years ago, but Aron gets the luxury of not citing or justifying any of his information. His information is just right... because it is!

Besides, even if Dreamweaver *were* the most popular tool out there, that doesn't make it superior. At least, you couldn't claim this based on this premise and then turn around and go on about how the Mac is superior...

Despite the little "issue" we have going on here, it is still interesting hearing from you guys. I wish we could have conversations about the tools we like and use without the emotional attachment and defensiveness.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Dreamweaver is not doing a single thing with MySQL unless the MySQL server permits connections via a particular username from a particular host.

Dreamweaver can generate SQL, if I recall. Like, you define your database schema in Dreamweaver, and then you can reference columns in your site and Dreamweaver will automatically generate the necessary code. If you can't connect to your MySQL server, that's a whole different problem that Dreamweaver can't help you with.

[besson3c]

Heh, I need an education now.

Damn Aron, you are one uptight dude. Has it occurred to you that maybe your Dreamweaver religion has gone a little too far?

The majority of Windows/Dreamweaver web programmers are now programming in Ruby and PHP now?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Dreamweaver can generate SQL. If you can't connect to your MySQL server, that's a whole different problem that Dreamweaver can't help you with.

What do you mean it can generate SQL? SQL queries?

My original question had to do with what Dreamweaver did exactly in working with DB servers like MySQL? (Does it work with Postgresql, Oracle, or Sybase, just out of curiosity? I'd imagine so if using ODBC...)

[Aron Peterson]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Heh, I need an education now.

Certainly

Damn Aron, you are one uptight dude. Has it occurred to you that maybe your Dreamweaver religion has gone a little too far?

YES!!!! YES!!! I did it! I got a someone losing in an argument to bring up religion! We are now two posts away from Nazis being mentioned!!!

The majority of Windows/Dreamweaver web programmers are now programming in Ruby and PHP now?

They have always been coding PHP and working with MySQL. Where have you been?

[all2ofme]

Guys, get a room! Have you read the title of the thread?

[besson3c]

[QUOTE=Aron Peterson;3364643]

They also have been coding PHP and working with MySQL. Where have you been?

I didn't say they haven't been, but if you were writing web applications you'd want a test environment for testing stuff out on, right? If you were hip to creating yourself a Linux based test environment, maybe some of the 90% of the programmers you have cited would not be using WIndows?

Just a wild theory, admittedly flawed, but no less valid than the 90% figure you threw out there without a source me thinks...

[besson3c]

I'm still curious as to the answer for my previous question...

When you guys talk about "FTP", do you lump SFTP into this mix? Or, are there still a significant number of ISPs only offering FTP, for whatever reason?

[Aron Peterson]

[QUOTE=besson3c;3364667]

Originally Posted by Aron Peterson 

I didn't say they haven't been, but if you were writing web applications you'd want a test environment for testing stuff out on, right? If you were hip to creating yourself a Linux based test environment, maybe some of the 90% of the programmers you have cited would not be using WIndows?

Just a wild theory.

Very wild theory. You can test on a server. You should know that.

[Aron Peterson]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

When you guys talk about "FTP", do you lump SFTP into this mix? Or, are there still a significant number of ISPs only offering FTP, for whatever reason?

Do you mean hosting services?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Aron Peterson 

Very wild theory. You can test on a server. You should know that.

What if you don't want to alter your pathnames, and you want to test upgrading various libraries and dependencies your application may have?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Aron Peterson 

Do you mean hosting services?

Yes, sorry...

[Aron Peterson]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Yes, sorry...

Well, that's different from an ISP. Just about all hosts offer SFTP and SSH. You have to ask them to activate it for you by supplying additional ID such as a photocopy of your passport or driving license.

Regarding local test beds for database driven sites developed on a Windows machine...

Step-by-step instructions for setting up Apache, Perl/CGI, PHP, and MySQL on a Windows OS machine.

Using Apache with Microsoft Windows - Apache HTTP Server
Instructions for Installing Apache on Windows
Installing and configuring Apache on Windows XP: Virtual Hosts

I'd still rather do it on the host's server because Dreamweaver and some other apps can do find and replace a path across the whole site. Dreamweaver can also dynamically update paths and links if files are moved or if the site's configuration (domain name, etc) changes.

[besson3c]

You're missing my point. I know that you can install PHP and MySQL on Windows. However, if you want parity with your host in terms of paths, dependencies, and the whole gamut, you are at least going to want to test it on the same platform type.

If your web app doesn't require any dependencies, this may not be necessary, but if you wanted to test against:

- any PHP extension
- a library/dependency such as ImageMagick
- a newer version of a set of frameworks, such as Prototype
- a particular version of OpenSSL
- an upgrade to a third-party CMS

etc.

Even looking at PHP and Apache alone, there are several issues which are WIndows only. Apache 2, for instance, addresses includes a lot of improvements for WIndows users.

Some parity would be desired, no? I'm under the impression that we are talking about cutting edge web programming, so this would not be all too uncommon, right?

Will Dreamweaver update paths for stuff outside of your DocRoot directory?

[Aron Peterson]

I'll hand you over to two people you can chat with as they have comments sections on their sites.

The first is Veerle. She is a Belgian designer who is always bleeding edge. She uses Dreamweaver for her HTML and PHP/MySQL along wth CSSEdit and a little BBEdit. She is also an excellent Illustrator artist.

The second is David Blanchett from New Orleans who does all his work HTML/PHP/CSS/MySQL in Dreamweaver on Windows. David and his partner are behind many sites on the net including Logopond, Standards Reboot, Nola Bound, and much more.

[besson3c]

They both have very nice sites. Where can I see some of their programming work? Just wondering... (I'm not asking this to further any argument or anything, just curious).

[Aron Peterson]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

They both have very nice sites. Where can I see some of their programming work? Just wondering... (I'm not asking this to further any argument or anything, just curious).

They're both heavily into programming all their sites. Don't make the mistake of thinking because the sites look neat and pretty that they are made up of tables and images. What you're looking at is CSS, Ajax, XHTML, PHP and database driven. David creates custom Content Management Systems from scratch for every site he makes for people. Veerle does too in conjunction with Expression Engine.

Go through their tutorials. Veerle has many on her site (go through the categories). Heavy conversations in her comments sections. David does some tutorials on the Slim section of his site, but hasn't been doing much of them lately because he has a new baby.

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaddock 

Well, see what I wrote again. The cutting edge designers and bloggers who've led the push for web standards and good design include names like Eric Meyer, Jeffrey Zeldman, Dave Shea (CSS Zen Garden), Khoi Vinh, Shaun Inman, etc. — the list goes on. None of these people use Dreamweaver as far as I can tell, or have many nice things to say about it if they mention it at all.

Before we get to having sites go 'mono a mono' and quoting the industry visionaries I would like to point out that 'designing a site' and 'maintaining' a site are two very different things.

Designing a site in DW is an effort in futility and to not hand code the templates would be madness. They probably use a 4X app solution as do I (if not 3X. I doubt they'd use CSSedit much. They bleed CSS.)

The flip-side, for content maint/publication and that is not the work they do. DW excels beyond any text editor or any other tool that I know… short of large, very $$$ enterprise class instances. Many of the visual CMS's are getting better and the day will probably come when they are perfect, but physical maintenance of your marked-up copy is absolutely critical.

This is another area where Coda and the like (or the 4X solution) fall short and DW still remains a significant tool.

[davesimondotcom]

Speaking of religion - I am a zealot when it comes to my Mac, valid XHTML/CSS and a few other things. But I'm agnostic when it comes to the program that I write XHTML/CSS in.

Just happens that as of right now, TextMate and CSSEdit help me get done with my work faster and more efficiently. Not Dreamweaver.

Coda, however, seems to fit in that workflow quite well, in the place of Transmit. Not a complete replacement for any of the Triad - TextMate/CSSEdit/Transmit, but a good supplement.

[Aron Peterson]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom 

Speaking of religion - I am a zealot when it comes to my Mac, valid XHTML/CSS and a few other things. But I'm agnostic when it comes to the program that I write XHTML/CSS in.

Just happens that as of right now, TextMate and CSSEdit help me get done with my work faster and more efficiently. Not Dreamweaver.

No one put down TextMate or CSSEdit as far as I can tell. The misinformation was aimed squarely at Dreamweaver based on some myth that it doesn't have a code view. It's coding tools trump Coda by far.

However, out of the lot, Dreamweaver is the only one that is going to help you the most with PHP, MySQL and Javascript/Ajax.

For example, you can now build an Ajax driven drop down menu or make parts of your site scroll and hide or tabify, in a minute. Yes, a minute. DW will also create the external .js and .css files. All you have to do then is style the effects any way you want to. Only DW does this so easily.

The best part of having the Spry framework is that you can download new Ajax effecs and templates from the web whenever some clever coder comes up with something cool and useful.

[:dragonflypro:]

Aron,

While I agree with you that DW is too easily dismissed, I have read that the Spry stuff that DW spits out isn't all that pretty. Code-heads will probably take issue with that. As might I.

As soon as they get a ^&*%!@$%(( demo out… then I'll know.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Aron Peterson 

No one put down TextMate or CSSEdit as far as I can tell. The misinformation was aimed squarely at Dreamweaver based on some myth that it doesn't have a code view. It's coding tools trump Coda by far.

However, out of the lot, Dreamweaver is the only one that is going to help you the most with PHP, MySQL and Javascript/Ajax.

I never said DW didn't have a code view. And I believe I was the one who said Coda isn't meant to compete with DW. I DID say that I would prefer to develop sites with Transmit/Coda + TextMate + CSSEdit and find them more efficient than DW.

As far as "helping me out" with PHP/MySQL, JS, AJAX, etc., I can't speak to that. No experience with DW in those departments.

I know when it comes to writing XHTML/CSS, I'd rather use other tools. And I find DW's FTP/WebDAV capabilities to be confusing and harder to use than they should be.

[Aron Peterson]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom 

I never said DW didn't have a code view. And I believe I was the one who said Coda isn't meant to compete with DW.

I know. I responded that Coda should compete with Dreamweaver. All it has to do is make better use of screen space and add competitive features. It could do so by version 1.5 is Panic puts in the effort. If Coda does compete then it will bring down the price of DW or Adobe will be forced to make Dreamweaver much better. Competition is always good. It might also be a good idea to release Coda for Vista.

I know when it comes to writing XHTML/CSS, I'd rather use other tools. And I find DW's FTP/WebDAV capabilities to be confusing and harder to use than they should be.

I'm comfortable in any app for XHTML and CSS, even TextEdit. DW for me means more than that (such as PHP, Javascript, auto updating links across a whole site, etc).

For purely FTP stuff I'd say use Transmit, Captain FTP or Cute FTP. Even Fugu if it didn't freeze so much. Transmit is the best of the lot.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by :dragonflypro: 

Designing a site in DW is an effort in futility and to not hand code the templates would be madness.

Dreamweaver doesn't seem much less full-featured than SubEthaEdit (and has more features in many areas besides simple code editing), which I know many people don't consider to be "an effort in futility."

[Aron Peterson]

Originally Posted by :dragonflypro: 

Aron,

While I agree with you that DW is too easily dismissed, I have read that the Spry stuff that DW spits out isn't all that pretty. Code-heads will probably take issue with that. As might I.

That's fine. The code looks decent to me and works in all browsers. That's the most important thing. I would still look over the code and make changes if you see something you think can be done better.