[mqymouse]

Hi,

I'm confused about Virtual Memory. This is my first Power Mac, and I've never needed to use VM before. Everything I've read about VM says that if you're running a PowerPC, you should have it on and set at 1 MB.

Ok, I've got it turned on, but it's automatically set at 193 MB and I can't adjust it lower than that. The cap for VM is 996 MB.

I've got an iMac DV 400 Mhz, 192 MB Physical RAM, 10 GB hard drive, system...I mean OS 8.6.

Can someone explain to me why my VM scratch space is so big and why I can't make it smaller and does it all even matter? And why does my Mac run faster when VM is off, but everyone says to leave it on?

Thanks in advance,

Michael

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Le ver vert va vers le verre vert.

[yoyo52]

You set VM to one MB over what you have installed physically, so 193 is exactly right.

[This message has been edited by yoyo52 (edited 09-17-2000).]

[mac freak]

That 193 MB represents the total combined RAM -- 192 MB phycial plus 1 MB virtual. If you ever decide to turn VM off, expect the system to use about 20 MB more memory.

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Be Happy.

[wlonh]

VM is unneccessary UNLESS you have too little physical RAM or if you have an app that requires it (and you'd know because the app would tell you when you launch it) ... and if you have not enough RAM (like 64M or less), then buy more...

you are correct about a speed hit by using VM, don't use it unless you must

[Cipher13]

I dunno about other people, but I have never noticed a speed hit when using VM.
I always use it... its advantages far outweigh its (supposed) disadvantages.
I have 128 phys and use it... you may as well put it on.

Cipher13

[This message has been edited by Cipher13 (edited 09-18-2000).]

[wlonh]

it messes with so many things, like DVD playback and MacOS soundsets to name but a few... a DEFINITE performance hit... NFG...

benefits? none.

and yes i have read all the Apple TIL articles touting VM... just so much hogwash.

[This message has been edited by wlonh (edited 09-18-2000).]

[Cipher13]

benefits? none.

Um... wrong.

Benefits:
1. improved performance in many situations, especially low memory situations.
2. lower memory usage by ALL apps. with most apps this makes a difference of only about 2-5 megs - however, my system consumes and extra 30 megs when VM is off.
3. extra RAM
4. plus more...

disadvantages:
1. uses up HD space (but that may not matter, and I am only suggesting using 1 meg of vm)
2. slower (however, running with only 1 meg on, which is what I mean, makes no difference to that!)
3. hd activity more often... chances are the hd will be accessed anyway. unless watching dvd's and stuff - and in that case, turn it off!
how often do you watch dvd's on your computer?

it messes with so many things, like DVD playback and MacOS soundsets to name but a few... a DEFINITE performance hit... NFG...

so many things eh?... you named 2.
any more?
i never turn it off to watch dvd's... and i never have any probs. no skipping or anything...
macos soundsets?!? who uses those anyway?
and i find it ironic you use that example, as if you are worried about virtual memory causing a performance hit, then surely you don't want the soundsets running, which most definately do?!?
and don't try and use the argument 'its crap for games and stuff'... nah, its not.
i run with 220 megs all up, but have 128 phys.
yeah, thats a lot of virtual!
i run everything like that. dvd's - fine. ut - smooth as anything, at top detail levels.
it makes little difference to anything like that...
and anyway, you talk of performance hits - how much of a performance hit? how likely is it that someone would notice this 'decrease in performance'?
would you be able to walk up to a computer, use it and say 'man this thing must be running vm! - how slow is it!?'
no. you can't. neither can i. unless its an exhorbitant amount... i am talking in the neighbourhood of 1-50 megs. probably 1, which is what i am recommending it be run at!

Cipher13

[This message has been edited by Cipher13 (edited 09-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Cipher13 (edited 09-18-2000).]

[WDL]

My VM is on all the time (except where an app specifically recommends it be off) and there's no speed hit I can measure with a sweep second hand on a watch - in fact, some things seem to go a little faster.

Try it and decide for yourself.

WDL

[wlonh]

lookie here bud, i SAID i'd read ALL those TILs about VM...

benefits? none...

VM is a pig in a poke... and as far as i know, not one of the MacNN staffers use VM... not one... and 10 million frenchmen CAN'T be wrong...

er, have a Coke and a smile

[This message has been edited by wlonh (edited 09-18-2000).]

[mqymouse]

Thanks for all the input. It seems a little silly to represent the 1 MB of VM as 192 MB of physical RAM PLUS the 1 MB of VM. Why not just say 1 MB of Virtual Memory? Save the confusion, please.

Further, I have noticed, while using a program that views invisible files like ResEdit or the like, the System hard drive has an invisible file called Virtual Memory something-or-other whose file size is 200 MB. Is this the allocated space for VM? If so, if I've only allocated 1 MB for VM, why is there 200 MB of storage space being taken up on my hard drive? It's not like I'm short on space, but it all doesn't make sense.

And since I do have plenty of physical RAM, I guess turning it off won't hurt too much. When I did before, I noticed a slight increase in System RAM usage, but not enough to be concerned about it.

Whatever. Thanks again for the help.

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Le ver vert va vers le verre vert.

[wlonh]

yeah, another 'benefit' of VM, loss of HD space!

you can fix that by using this:
http://software.theresistance.net/fi...tsFixer1.0.hqx


"This application looks for an invisible file called "Memory Contents" in your system folder, and if (a) the file exists and (b) is not in use, it will offer to delete it for you. This "Memory Contents" file normally is used to hold the computer's virtual memory. However, when you turn virtual memory off under OS9, this file is not always deleted. On my iBook, it seems that the file never gets deleted when turning off VM.

If you had a large amount of RAM installed before you disabled virtual memory, you may be missing several hundred megabytes of disk space. This application will help you recover it."

the above quoted paragraphs were taken from the 'Memory Contents Fixer' website

[This message has been edited by wlonh (edited 09-18-2000).]

[Cipher13]

I really don't care what TIL's you've read... from what I can tell, you read them then make your own opinions of it, discarding what ever they say...
Reading TIL's doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.
So, are you going to counter what I said? Or not?
You didn't mention any other disadvantages of it... or other things it messes with...
I already said one of its disadvantages was using HD space...
Going to think of something yourself?
And you still insist there are no benefits... when I just named some... oh well, thats good for you.
As far as you know none of the MacNN staff use it eh?
Well then, be it the word of God!
I mean if the MacNN Staff don't use it, then that MUST be the right thing to do!
Hey you know, as far as I know, Bill Gates has a lime iMac in his office, or even a Cube, running AppleWorks 6!

10 million frenchman can't be wrong...

Oh really? Well actually the majority of people on this planet are stupid, and so chances are if you took 10 million people, at random, you would end up with a relatively stupid group... or are you playing on the fact that if everyone thinks something is right, then 'it is'?
It also depends on how you chose that 10 million...
But anyway, I think the fact that you replied with no real response to anything I said is enough to prove my point.
As WDL said, try it and see for yourself.
Erm... I just read that and it sounds VERY hostile... sorry, I didn't mean it to be... thats just the way I argue... don't take it as a personal attack...

Cipher13

[This message has been edited by Cipher13 (edited 09-18-2000).]

[wlonh]

don't worry, i find it all very amusing, your rant... do try to get over yourself, when i want your opinion of me i'll give it to you!


some people just KNOW and they feel no need to justify, my 'opinion' is based on my real world experience and the K.I.S.S. principle

and brevity is the soul of wit... LOL



[This message has been edited by wlonh (edited 09-20-2000).]

[Cipher13]

Well in a place like this, just KNOWING and not feeling any need to justify is about as good as being wrong.
It is a forum... you don't just answer with 'yes' or 'no' or anything like that - you answer, then support your answer.
This has nothing to do with you - its for the people that want to know whether to run VM or not.
You said no, but didn't support it. I said yes, and supported it.
Not only did you not support it, but the way you are 'speaking' sounds just like an admission of defeat. Not that that really matters.
Now that is not good form.
People are now divided over whether or not to turn it on. You have confused them further.
You should support anything you say, and if you're not gonna support it, don't say it.
And it is hardly a 'rant'... its not that violent is it?

brevity is the soul of all wit

In your case, no, its not. You conveyed little information, and no fact, and no support information for your original argument. That phrase jus kicked you in the face...

Cipher13

[This message has been edited by Cipher13 (edited 09-19-2000).]

[wlonh]

LOL, you slay me... this horse has been beaten time and again, i have expressed myself at length ad nauseum et ad infinitum in these fora on this subject... and VM is just not all that... period... take it or leave it, ok?

LOL, all hail Cipher13!!



[This message has been edited by wlonh (edited 09-19-2000).]

[Cipher13]

If it has been discussed at length, then by all means link to the discussion!
It can't be that hard to find! You are always suggesting others use the SEARCH tool, so how about you try it?
Its not ME you're trying to convince here, its the new users, and others that want to know.
And the very short and 'empty' posts you have here aren't doing much to help that...
And if you don't care whether they use VM, why post about it at all?
Yeah, go 'hail' yourself...

Cipher13

[wlonh]

man, have you ever considered standup? you really are good...

let others search! i have found!

btw, didja get up on the wrong side of the bed today?

[This message has been edited by wlonh (edited 09-19-2000).]

[Cipher13]

I'm not much into standup comedy... I usually find it very lame... (there are exceptions though )
Well, if I got up on the wrong side of the bed, I'd bump into a wall...
No, no i didn't...
I find it hard to believe, but haven't you noticed I'm usually like this when I argue? Or haven't I been in an argument with you yet?
And you have YET to counter me effectively...
So, lets get back on topic shall we?

Cipher13

[This message has been edited by Cipher13 (edited 09-19-2000).]

[tonymac]

I have two problems with virtual memory:
1. MP3 playback skips with Sound Jam (this may be fixed now, but I haven't tried it).
2. Photoshop performance suffers since Photoshop uses its own VM
The debate has certainly been lively on this topic. These are simply my 2 reasons for keeping VM turned off. However, my OS takes up about 25 megs extra with it off. Oh, well. There are trade offs in all things.

[Cipher13]

Try Audion. Never skips, even with VM on high, doing the most intense things.
Usually SJ skips when opening apps - Audion doesn't.
I don't find VM affects PhotoShop at all, for the same reason... Oh well, I don't use it that much so can't really tell...

Cipher13

[Bugs Bunny]

Well, to add a little fuel to the fire, I never really saw a need to use VM on any of my Macs, (Pismo w/192meg ram, and a B&W G3, 256meg ram). But as I have moved upped the OS ladder, I have seen a definite lack of memory management, especially OS 9.xx. After seeing the amount of memory the OS inhales, and tired of restarting my Macs every day just to reclaim large chunks, I have enabled the VM beast. Now before anybody jumps down my throat, let me say this. I have been running w/VM on the past month, and you know what? I have not had to restart my Macs at all. The OS seems more stable, ram usage never gets out of whack, and in general, things seem better. I have not noticed any slow downs, actually, things seem just as snappy w/VM on. The only negative point I have seen w/VM is disk fragmentation. So there you have it, a totally honest point of view from "Joe Average" user.



[This message has been edited by Bugs Bunny (edited 09-21-2000).]

[Cipher13]

AMEN!

I turned VM off today cause I was running low on disk space, and the Finder used 67 megs!!
I couldn't run jack!
Try running 2 Lightwave apps and Poser, Netscape, IE, ICQ, AIM, Hotline, Carracho and Hotline Server like that!!

Cipher13

[This message has been edited by Cipher13 (edited 09-21-2000).]

[3gg3]

"It seems a little silly to represent the 1 MB of VM as 192 MB of physical RAM PLUS the 1 MB of VM."

Welcome to the silly little world of Mac. Never exemplified better than in this discussion/this topic.

My own experience is that VM is definitely a pain with SoundJam, and my son's PB will not output audio with VM on. So we both turn VM off when we're "playing". Otherwise, we notice no degradation in using it -- though neither of us qualify as Power Users.

I have I'm RAM on PBG3 now, never use VM before (from 7100) since "many people" told me not to use...
After read the discussions, I've tried...
Really not affecting me from playing Oni...
But this also real... I've found that the response of display was slower (just talking about normal system action such as window closing), enough to sense by visual. When I turn VM off, it goes right again.
So, from this NON-professional tester's opinion, "Buy some more RAM if you need them".
BTW, I would like to ask a question, "Are there any better setting to VM which make it works more efficiently?"