[Paco500]

My wife is getting tired of the mini-van but we're not going down the SUV road. We've got two in car seats and the accompanying stuff. Her driving is extremely limited (excluding one long trip ~6000 miles in the last year, or 9,656 km for our EU and Canadian friends). She wants something interesting. She's thinking station wagon.

She originally wanted a Volvo 240 (we both love the style) but they really are too out of date. She doesn't care for the non-240 Volvo style from the 80's and 90's, and we can't really spring for newer. So she's focused on a early to mid 90's Mercedes E series or a mid to late 90's Saab 9-5.

They are both cool cars and I support either- but what do the experts out there think about reliability and cost to maintain with these two vehicles?

I know it can't be helped, but try not to make this a thread about what alternate car you would recommend. There are no American wagons that hold any appeal, we've been burned by VW too many times to go down that road again (Audi is getting the same treatment here) and none of the Japanese wagons (Accord, Camary, Legacy) really excite.

Thanks.

[Goldfinger]

An old school Mercedes like that one will be the cheapest to maintain and just plain the best.

[zoroaster68]

WRX wagon. 230hp. AWD. Fun to drive. Smallish.
Forester XT wagon. Biggish. 235hp and loads more torque. AWD. Fun to drive. Faster than a nissan 350Z.

Also, check these out:

http://www.saabusa.com/saabjsp/92x/index.jsp

Saab luxury and refinement. Subaru reliability and turbo power. Plus a subaru price, along with the fact that YOU CAN GET ONE OF THESE WITH THE GM DISCOUNT SO THEY"RE REALLY CHEAP.

- Rob

[Goldfinger]

Good one Rob, he asked not the post other possible cars AND the ones you suggest are out of his price range.

[zoroaster68]

Used WRXs can be had for well under 15k. I don't see how that's out of his price range.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by zoroaster68

WRX wagon. 230hp. AWD. Fun to drive. Smallish.
Forester XT wagon. Biggish. 235hp and loads more torque. AWD. Fun to drive. Faster than a nissan 350Z.

WRX- it's cool, but my wife is not an 18 yr old boy. Forester just doesn't appeal- and that fancy one is way too expensive.

Originally Posted by zoroaster68

Also, check these out:

http://www.saabusa.com/saabjsp/92x/index.jsp

Saab luxury and refinement. Subaru reliability and turbo power. Plus a subaru price, along with the fact that YOU CAN GET ONE OF THESE WITH THE GM DISCOUNT SO THEY"RE REALLY CHEAP.

- Rob

9-2 is cool, but my wife is not a 26 year old stock broker.

[rickey939]

Mercedes.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by zoroaster68

Used WRXs can be had for well under 15k. I don't see how that's out of his price range.

The Mercedes and Saab can be had for 5 to 10k less. Over here anyway, I must admit that I don't know the second hand market in the US too well.

And the WRX is not a fun car at all to have as a daily driver if you're not a car nut. It's a great machine, but not for everybody.

[Mastrap]

I've had several Mercs and am now driving a Saab. The Saab, to me, feels better than the Mercs and performs extremely well in winter.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

I've had several Mercs and am now driving a Saab. The Saab, to me, feels better than the Mercs and performs extremely well in winter.

What about reliability/maintinance costs? I've owned 3 Saabs in the past and loved each one, but I don't remember them having Lexus-like reliability. I assume the Mercedes would be more reliable, but perhaps would cost more to fix/maintain? It this the case?

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by Paco500

I assume the Mercedes would be more reliable, but perhaps would cost more to fix/maintain? It this the case?

Overall Mercedes has always been one of the cheapest to fix since they were soo reliable. I see "were" because the new ones aren't all that reliable anymore. Sure a certain part can (*not* will) cost more but that's easily offset by all the other problems you won't have. Changing a lot of cheap parts adds up you know.

[Mastrap]

I am in the lucky position to have an excellent garage nearby. Saab specialists, but not an official Saab garage if that makes sense. I have the car services twice a year, so far nothing major needed to be done.
Saab parts ain't cheap, as you probably know, but they do tend to last forever.

[Nivag]

I've be driving Saabs for the last 6 years, while they are not cheap for parts, i've had value for money out of them.
My mum also loves them because she had a blow out front right tire at 90mph on the motorway, the slammed into the central barrier (driving in the outside lane at the time). she got out of the car with no injures, the car written off, broken suspension front and back with a massive dent/groove down the full length of the car.
With all that both the doors still opened and closed and could be alarmed and it still steered ok as well.

they are tough cars!

[zoroaster68]

Put it this way: For either a saab or a mercedes, the parts are going to be pretty dang expensive. For something like a subie wagon, they're going to be pretty freakin cheap.

- Rob

[Troll]

You no obey Merc marketing speak. BMW makes 1, 3, 5, 6 and 7 SERIES automobiles. Mercedes makes A, B, C, E, M, R, S CLASS automobiles. I think Merc wants you to think Mercedes and Class.

Anyway, on the topic, go with a Merc. No question about it. Saab's just don't compare in the reliability stakes.

[Jim Paradise]

I've never understood the appeal of Saabs if only because I've always thought they produced some of the ugliest cars on the road.

[zoroaster68]

Originally Posted by Jim Paradise

I've never understood the appeal of Saabs if only because I've always thought they produced some of the ugliest cars on the road.

I used to agree, but lately they're putting out some head turners:



http://www.saab-leipzig.de/ami-leipz...aab-9-3-04.jpg

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by Jim Paradise

I've never understood the appeal of Saabs if only because I've always thought they produced some of the ugliest cars on the road.

Saabs are most definitely not mainstream in the looks department, and there are those, such as myself, that like that about them.

But more importantly, I think many people are attracted to their overall quirkiness in design. The older Saabs (pre-9-3 design 900's) had the best opening hood in the business- made it super easy to access the engine. Unfortunately, it also covered the headlights when opened and apparently that was bad for safety. I love the ignition in the center console- apparently makes them harder to steal, is safer on the knees in a front-end wreck, and the weight of your key chain doesn't put wear on the switch.

They were the first with 3-point harnesses, but front-wheel drive on the map and have a great over-all safety record.

But overall, Saab just "thinks different" like another company. Or at least they mostly do. I admire the 9-2, but I think the 9-2 and 9-7 (blatant re-badging jobs of a WRX and a TrailBlazer) are not their strongest effort.

[Artful Dodger]

if buying used, then def. go with mercedes. They last.

[hickey]

My vote is for the Merc, although the company doesnt make a true manual transmission, still a better car than the Saab. Goodluck with the search, Im sure youll make the right choice.

[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by Troll

Mercedes makes A, B, C, E, M, R, S CLASS automobiles.

What about "G" wagon?


Merc's letters are easy to understand:

C class= cheap

E class= expensive

M class= meh

S class= sexy

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by hickey

My vote is for the Merc, although the company doesnt make a true manual transmission, still a better car than the Saab. Goodluck with the search, Im sure youll make the right choice.

Suburban DC traffic + family hauler wagon + 2 kids under 4 = not really giving a flip about a manual. Be it Saab or Merc, it's plush-bottom automatic all the way.

[Artful Dodger]

Paco, have you tried American Service Center in Arlington, va? My friend got an m class through that store and got a great deal. just a suggestion...

585 North Glebe Road
Arlington, VA 22203
Phone: 703-525-2100
Send Email: [email protected]
Main Fax: 703-525-1430

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

Paco, have you tried American Service Center in Arlington, va? My friend got an m class through that store and got a great deal. just a suggestion...

585 North Glebe Road
Arlington, VA 22203
Phone: 703-525-2100
Send Email: [email protected]
Main Fax: 703-525-1430

Haven't, but I will now. Thanks.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by iMOTOR

What about "G" wagon?

It's called G-class.

Originally Posted by hickey

My vote is for the Merc, although the company doesnt make a true manual transmission, still a better car than the Saab. Goodluck with the search, Im sure youll make the right choice.

Of course they have real manual transmissions. Older Mercedes manual transmissions were never all that great tho'. The newer ones are much better, but even those aren't fantastic...

[Cody Dawg]

I've owned both, back-to-back.

Saab wins every single time.

Saab.

Of course, I also have a Suburban for kids and dogs.

If I had to choose between Saab or Suburban, the Suburban wins because we need it.

I'm on my fourth Saab since 1995.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

II'm on my fourth Saab since 1995.

That's a life expectancy of 2.5 years per Saab, isn't that awesome

[xargos]

I can't speak for Mercedes drivers, but I love my 2000 Saab 9-5. Unconventional (well, not as much as older Saab) styling with excellent handling. Unless you're speed crazy, even the older 4-cyl non-turbos aren't half bad. Absolutely awsome in the snow and ice without switching to snow tires. You can get late 1990s and sometimes 2000-2001 Saab 9-5's under $10k US.

Warning, though. The 9-2x is a Subaru and the 9-7x is a mid-size GM SUV. The 9-3 and 9-5 are still from Sweden, though.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by Paco500

9-2 is cool, but my wife is not a 26 year old stock broker.

And thank God for that because the average stock broker's salary at that age is around $15,000 in the US.

[macroy]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

It's called G-class.


Of course they have real manual transmissions. Older Mercedes manual transmissions were never all that great tho'. The newer ones are much better, but even those aren't fantastic...

Which new Mercs come in manual? I've not seen one.. not even the AMGs.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by macroy

Which new Mercs come in manual? I've not seen one.. not even the AMGs.

Lol, about every Mercedes. I'll list a few manuals

A 150, A 160 CDI, A 170, A 180 CDI, A 200, A 200 CDI, B 150, B 170, B 180 CDI, B 200, B 200 CDI, B 200 Turbo blablablalb, ALL C classes, except for the 350, 320 CDI and 55 AMG, CLK 200 Kompressor, CLK 220 CDI, CLK 280, E 200 CDI, E 200 Kompressor, E 220 CDI, E 280 CDI, E 280, SLK 200 Kompressor, SLK 280 and a lot lot more.

Basically it's the smaller engines below 3 litres. The bigger ones have automatics as standard AFAIK (I can't immidiately find any exceptions).

[OreoCookie]

Sometimes they seem to put in a manual on request. Maybe not anymore. I was surprised to find out that the parents of a friend of mine had an early 90s 320 TE (yes, that old ) with a manual transmission while my father's had an automatic (same engine, same model). It seems that they got it on request. But I think you're right with the `3+ l rule'.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by macroy

Which new Mercs come in manual? I've not seen one.. not even the AMGs.

Americans seem to dislike manuals in general, at least that's my impression. In Europe, only big and expensive cars come with automatic, at least in Germany, very, very few small cars come with automatic. People (myself included) seem to like manuals better.

[zoroaster68]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I've owned both, back-to-back.

Saab wins every single time.

Saab.

That's because the Saab is better in every way than the suburban. Except the small penis syndrome.

If I had to choose between Saab or Suburban, the Suburban wins because we need it.

That's funny, I recall people owning dogs and having kids before suburbans were around... maybe you don't NEED the suburban, you just WANT it.

[Mastrap]

For city driving the automatic, for me, is just a lot less hassle. But then I drive because I have to, not because I particularly enjoy it. Now, sailing however....

And Rob, I agree with the post above.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Sometimes they seem to put in a manual on request. Maybe not anymore. I was surprised to find out that the parents of a friend of mine had an early 90s 320 TE (yes, that old ) with a manual transmission while my father's had an automatic (same engine, same model). It seems that they got it on request. But I think you're right with the `3+ l rule'.

They probably refer you to AMG if you really want a manual, which will cost you a pretty penny.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by zoroaster68

That's funny, I recall people owning dogs and having kids before suburbans were around... maybe you don't NEED the suburban, you just WANT it.

Indeed, nobody needs a suburban. It's not even a good car, it's awefull.

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Indeed, nobody needs a suburban. It's not even a good car, it's awefull.

try this

[xargos]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Indeed, nobody needs a suburban. It's not even a good car, it's awefull.

Quite right.

Usually a station wagon or mini-van will hold just as many people most SUVs on the road. Plus they usually have better fuel economy and create lower amounts of pollution.

And why do people seem to have this need to take their dogs everywhere! Sheesh...

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

try this

Your point being...?

[rozwado1]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Your point being...?

AWFUL

[Goldfinger]

Oh dear, zpellingk police. Yeah well "awful" is one of those words in English that I always misspell.

[Cody Dawg]

I like a new Saab every three years. I put 50K miles on them and trade it in.

What's wrong with that?

I love Saabs. They're awesome to drive. Go drive a turbo and tell me that you don't LOVE that car.

[rozwado1]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I like a new Saab every three years. I put 50K miles on them and trade it in.

Call me next time.

[His Dudeness]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I like a new Saab every three years. I put 50K miles on them and trade it in.

What's wrong with that?

I love Saabs. They're awesome to drive. Go drive a turbo and tell me that you don't LOVE that car.

How very true. I test drove a new 9-3 and was astounded at how powerful Saab can make 4 banger. Sweet car to drive, very well styled both inside and outside, and the best thing about Saab: it's not a Camry/Accord/Taurus/Run of the Mill car that 9 out of 10 people drive.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

They probably refer you to AMG if you really want a manual, which will cost you a pretty penny.

AMG don't make any manuals.

[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by zoroaster68

That's because the Saab is better in every way than the suburban. Except the small penis syndrome.



That's funny, I recall people owning dogs and having kids before suburbans were around... maybe you don't NEED the suburban, you just WANT it.

Occasionally, Rob posts words of wisdom

[teney7]

I drive an 82 Benz... 300 SD turbo diesel - it is a tank, and I love it

[macroy]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Lol, about every Mercedes. I'll list a few manuals

A 150, A 160 CDI, A 170, A 180 CDI, A 200, A 200 CDI, B 150, B 170, B 180 CDI, B 200, B 200 CDI, B 200 Turbo blablablalb, ALL C classes, except for the 350, 320 CDI and 55 AMG, CLK 200 Kompressor, CLK 220 CDI, CLK 280, E 200 CDI, E 200 Kompressor, E 220 CDI, E 280 CDI, E 280, SLK 200 Kompressor, SLK 280 and a lot lot more.

Basically it's the smaller engines below 3 litres. The bigger ones have automatics as standard AFAIK (I can't immidiately find any exceptions).

Noted - I guess we're talking different markets. As someone mentioned - the market for manuals in the US isn't like the rest of the world (which annoys me). I remember looking at a Nissan Maxima a number of years back.. dealer wanted $1500 more for a manual..... no thanks.

[simonjames]

they wanted to charge more for a manual? unbelievable

back on topic

IMO go the Mercedes