[Developer]

With GNOME 2.6 GNOME is banning the browser like file navigation (single window navigation with forward/backward buttons as the Mac OS X Finder has it) and is switching to spatial mode!


Spatial Nautilus in GNOME 2.6

This move was inspired by thoughts of user interface expert John Siracusa.

More info:
http://sayamindu.t35.com/GNOME_2_6.html

[::maroma::]

Good news for OS X, I assume.

[Developer]

Originally posted by ::maroma:::
Good news for OS X, I assume.

No, not good news. We're still stuck with with the browser like Finder. It is somewhat ironic, since the classic Mac OS had a spatial Finder all the time.

[Millennium]

Wonderful, so GNOME has succumbed to the cult of spatiality.

Spatial metaphors are good. They are not, however, The One True Way. Think for a moment: in terms of real-world usage, has the breaking of the spatial metaphor in OSX (independent of any other factor) impacted your workflow in any way? More than likely, it has not.

[MindFad]

If anything, I manage my files much faster with having only the one to three windows open all in column view. It's all about the column view. I never even use the back or forward buttons. It would be cool to be able to be able to use the aqua look with the sidebar instead of having to use the brushed one to get the sidebar. It looks nice in save dialogues, so why not in the Finder?

[Developer]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Wonderful, so GNOME has succumbed to the cult of spatiality.

Spatial metaphors are good. They are not, however, The One True Way. Think for a moment: in terms of real-world usage, has the breaking of the spatial metaphor in OSX (independent of any other factor) impacted your workflow in any way? More than likely, it has not.

Read that article by John Siracusa about the matter.

http://arstechnica.com/paedia/f/finder/finder-1.html

It's an interesting read and explains it very well.

[voodoo]

COOOOOOL!!

Spatial view is the best!! (I use gnome btw at school)

This will almost make the peecees at school more maclike than my mac

[kovacs]

I must be missing something what's so good about a spatial finder ? Can't you use the Finder in spatial mode already if you want to ?

[curmi]

Looking at the link, it appears they have really only just duplicated OS X. You can still use the explorer browser, or use the "spacial" browser. Pretty much OS X.

Other things they've implemented look like OS X too. The new Save dialogs are just like OS X - including the expanding from simple save dialog to more advanced dialog. And the new Character map is also similar to OS X.

Nothing new here. Oh, the templates are good. I was actually writing a plugin to do this on OS X. It isn't new though.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Developer:
Read that article by John Siracusa about the matter.

http://arstechnica.com/paedia/f/finder/finder-1.html

It's an interesting read and explains it very well.

I've read the article. It's all very nice on paper. However, frankly very little of it has actually been backed up in any real-world context. There hasn't been any real productivity gain that can be traced back solely to spatial orientation.

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by kovacs:
Can't you use the Finder in spatial mode already if you want to ?

Not in my experience. You can use it in a sort of pseudo-spatial mode, but it's not really spatial -- the desktop is no longer the conceptual root of the whole filesystem, and the spatial feeling just isn't always there (e.g. when two windows open to display the same folder). As John Siracusa (yes, Siracusa) put it:

This same coherency also extended to Finder windows, to the degree that the a Mac user might not have understood what you meant by "Finder window" back in the days before Mac OS X. "Oh, you mean this folder." There was no such thing as a "Finder window" that "displayed the contents of a folder." Double-clicking a folder opened it. The resulting window was the folder.

The idea behind a spatial file management system is that it feels like you're manipulating actual objects in actual places, rather than metaphors for objects in a browser window.

[Moonray]

Some people have too much spare time to debate that.

-

[Link]

I've used spatial enough to know it's a pain in the ass. For some reason too many people value nostalgia over efficiency nowadays..

what I wouldn't mind is a trunticated column view.. err much simpler, have the "tree" at the top below the toolbar like forums do, the further you dig you can just click once and go back up a branch.,.

Of course, command up and hittng opt + clicking the titlebar are MUCH quicker and efficient so no complaints

[voodoo]

Spatial isn't about 'nostalgia'. Many people actually think it is a better way to navigate FILES than doing it internet style.

The column view is the GUI equivalent of the CLI-type of filebrowsing mixed up with webbrowsing. I simply loathe it.

I am 100% capable of using the Terminal when I need that functionality.

Two separate windows should NEVER display the same folder. IMO.

[-Q-]

I like the options to use what I want when I need to. If I have to navigate somewhere deep in a heirarchy, I use column. If I need to have a folder open, I use the spatial view.

But I agree with voodoo (and Siracusa): two windows shouldn't ever show the same thing.

[Moonray]

Okay, I do not like column mode and if it would bother me that two windows show the same I would not open the second.

-

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Moonray:
Okay, I do not like column mode and if it would bother me that two windows show the same I would not open the second.

-

well that's the real trick innit?

I just prefer spatial over column/browser. IMO spatial is a better and more practical idea.

[Thinine]

I've read his reviews since the Public Beta and I think Siracusa's a whiney bitch.

[ApeInTheShell]

What stands out for me is the Mac OS X Finder isn't Windows Explorer. There's no ABC's and 123's and it doesn't resemble a web browser to me other than the back/forward and search
I think the file navigation would make sense if the Finder only supported column view because the Finder tends to forget its settings.
So do we have to empty our cds in the trash again? Maybe it was a sublimal message from the file sharers of the future.
The fact is you can only bring so much functionality like "spatial mode" back that it defeats the purpose of "ease of use". Let's say there was actually an installation in Mac OS X that allowed you to set it to spatial mode. On the other hand, the regular user gets column view (or whatever you call it) mode. So the question is, would you have to reinstall to get finder mode back or would it be built in as a fail safe? I like options but not when they are going to comprimise having to relearn things each day: we see it when we reboot into 9 after a couple months/years

I remember when i saw the quicktime movies on Apple's site about Mac OS X 10.0 Finder. I was excited that the new way to do things finally made sense. I'm not discounting Mac OS 9 because it used spatial mode, correct me if im wrong, but it just couldn't keep up with other types of navigational systems. Yeah, Mac is the best but Apple had to appeal to a much bigger audience and Mac OS X Finder did that.

[ginoledesma]

I like column view a lot. It allows me to easily transfer files in different hierarchies of folders easily without having to clutter the screen with several open windows. The thing I dislike with having Classic-like windows is that Mac OS X's graphical widgets are just too huge for my taste -- from the font, to the buttons, icons, spacing, etc. Working on 1024x768 just barely gives me enough space for my taste.

I had to read the articles just to remember what spatial mode was, and only now do I remember of how I used to work in System 7.x/Mac OS 8.x/9.x. Yeah, I sort of miss that, but the way I work now is just as effective, though. If I had a little more screen real estate, then yeah, I'd go for spatial mode again.

[curmi]

To have a true spacial finder on OS X, it would need to prevent you from seeing the Desktop folder in any window other than the desktop. Currently, even if you put your windows in "spacial" mode, you can go to your home area, and then open "Desktop", and you'll now have files in that window, plus sitting on the desktop.

[curmi]

As for Gnome, I think (if I recall correctly) the desktop is also in the home area - .gnome*

So it is hidden in that it is a dot-file. Unless Nautilus shows dot-files, in which case their browser is possibly no more spacial than OS X in spacial mode.

Having the desktop as a dot-file is a little un-user-friendly though when not using a spacial browser IMHO.

[intastella]

I think this whole thing could be solved by Apple implementing a clear difference between the spacial view and browser view. Siracusa suggests having a "New Browser" command in the File menu. I tend to agree. If you had a browser view (Column view) and spacial view (Icon/List views) and just enforced the rules, no body would have a beef. It's just that Apple wants to do both at the same time and mix it all together, and that's where it gets messy.

[tooki]

If the new Gnome's spatial mode works the same as the Classic Mac OS Finder -- that is, no folder or icon can ever exist in more than one place at once -- then it is the perfect marriage of spatial and browser, since Gnome still lets you get the contextual menu on a folder and browse it. I think the OS X Finder should let you choose a fully-spatial mode, but open [very optically separate] browser windows if desired. For those who prefer it, a fully-browser mode could be available, too.

tooki

[Link]

can't you set the OS X finder to work in spatial mode? last I saw you can by turning off the toolbar and setting it to open new windows for each folder..

Personally I think it should be optional if it isn't already. I HATE spatial view and am not going to take it just because some nimrod who's been using computers since the 80's and was stuck with OS 9 style navigation for 20 years can't let go of it..

Yes I know, it's better, more efficient, whatever. I don't like it when I dig around in my apps and end up with 20 windows on my screen after 5 mins.

[Gee4orce]

Originally posted by voodoo:

Two separate windows should NEVER display the same folder. IMO.

Why on earth not ? I can split my text editor to display different (or the same) portions of the same file, I can open a second photoshop window that shows the same file, from from a different perspective.

Seeing the same file in two windows can be useful.

[Gee4orce]

Originally posted by intastella:
I think this whole thing could be solved by Apple implementing a clear difference between the spacial view and browser view. Siracusa suggests having a "New Browser" command in the File menu. I tend to agree. If you had a browser view (Column view) and spacial view (Icon/List views) and just enforced the rules, no body would have a beef. It's just that Apple wants to do both at the same time and mix it all together, and that's where it gets messy.

Browser view - brushed metal
Spacial view - Aqua

...seems a pretty clear distinction to me

[Don Pickett]

Just my $0.02:

The column mode is a godsend when navigating through large server hierarchies. I am currently working at a place which has not just the Worst Organized Server Ever, but the Biggest Freakin' Worst Organized Server Ever � terabytes and terabytes of crap all over the place. The column view makes running around the thing simple and logical. I tend to go back and forth between list and column on my home machine, but at work it's column all the way.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
Why on earth not ? I can split my text editor to display different (or the same) portions of the same file, I can open a second photoshop window that shows the same file, from from a different perspective.

Seeing the same file in two windows can be useful.

Photoshop opens the same file twice, it doesn't display the same file in two windows. i.e. you edit one of the two identical pics you opened and the other stays the same.

The split window in some word processors is not as functional as one might think. It does however serve a purpose and make slight sense. Like you can have page 2 in front of you while typing page 5 on a typweriter.

Displaying the contents of ~/Movies/ in two seperate windows is extremely illogical and I can't think of one instance where it is useful UNLESS the Finder is contained withing ONE window as it is in OS X generally. That is a Browser Finder because it functions in the same ways as a web browser. You go to an address and it displays the contents. You can open a new browser window and navigate to the same place. Makes sense as such.

Spatial view is all about having ONE specific window for EACH folder. Each folder has a kind of physical presence on your desktop. Like in real life you can't open ONE folder twice. If it is already open then the window that contains that folder pops into view. I like that way of navigating files. It is fast and logical.

The current OS X has a split personality in the way it handles file navigation. Obviously set around the browser/column view because you can still (in 'spatial mode') open A) the Desktop within a window and B) open 2 or more windows displaying the same folder. When in column mode you have to think CLI. You have only one window and a path. If you want to copy ~/Movies/Experimental/2003/mymovie.mov to ~/Public/FTP/ you have to think it like CLI.

Terminal would do it like (for instance):

$ pwd
~/Public/FTP/

$ cp ~/Movies/Experimental/2003/~/Movies/Experimental/2003/ .

done.

in Column view you'd do it like:

you are in ~/Movies/Experimental/2003/

you select mymovie.mov and choose 'copy' from Edit menu

you navigate to ~/Public/FTP/

you choose 'paste' from Edit menu.

That is completely the same way of thought.

Alternatively you could drag and drop it between two Column view windows -- but that is the spatial way of doing it.

The spatial way of doing things is simpler IMO.

You find the folder you want to copy from and move the file to the folder you want it to go to by dragging it to that folder. You can also navigate to that folder my using the springloaded folder function (a very spatial function) or drop the file on the desktop while you find the correct folder.

That is where it becomes paramount to functionality that only ONE window displays ONE folder.
A) When you open the window for ~/Public/FTP/ it opens in the same place you closed it with the same size and same display options (icons/list, grid spacing etc)
B) Ironically (Steve are you reading?) the current setup INCRESES desktop clutter because you can so easily end up with many windows displaying the same information. I can have 20 ~/Public/FTP/ windows open at the same time! Unintentionally, since when I am working in the file system and navigating I have no time/concentration to spend on whether I have ~/Public/FTP/ already open or not. Finding the window that has ~/Public/FTP/ open takes more time than just opening a new one and navigating there => increasing desktop clutter.

That happens because of the split personality of the Finder. Is it spatial or isn't it? The Finder doesn't know. I sure don't. I think we should be able to CHOOSE between using the GUI equivalent of the Terminal CLI navigation or using true Spatial navigation in combination with the Terminal CLI when we so desire or need. I don't know if I get my message across but it is a lot about consistancy and user friendliness. Two windows should never display the contents of the same folder. That is inconsistant - it is also a dubious feature.

[stew]

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
Browser view - brushed metal
Spacial view - Aqua

...seems a pretty clear distinction to me

Except that the Aqua Finder is not spatial, see Mr. Siracusa's article for details.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
Browser view - brushed metal
Spacial view - Aqua

...seems a pretty clear distinction to me

No no no.

In spatial view you CAN NOT see the contents of the same folder in two seperate windows! That is important. If - by making the windows Aqua - you'd make the system spatial then that wouldn't happen. All it does is change from browser/column view to icon/list view that opens a new window when you open a folder. That does not a spatial Finder make /Yoda

[voodoo]

Extract from the Siracusa article:

Back in 1984, explanations of the original Mac interface to users who had never seen a GUI before inevitable included an explanation of icons that went something like this: "This icon represents your file on disk." But to the surprise of many, users very quickly discarded any semblance of indirection. This icon is my file. My file is this icon. One is not a "representation of" or an "interface to" the other. Such relationships were foreign to most people, and constituted unnecessary mental baggage when there was a much more simple and direct connection to what they knew of reality.

"Under the covers", of course, each file on disk was actually two "files" in the Mac file system's volume structures (a data "file" and a resource "file"), plus assorted pieces of metadata--including the icon itself!--stored in other locations entirely. But to the user, these separate pieces appeared as a single, indivisible item that was inextricably bound to the mental conception of "my file." The illusion was so well executed and so relentlessly consistent that users trusted it implicitly. "This icon is my file."

This same coherency also extended to Finder windows, to the degree that the a Mac user might not have understood what you meant by "Finder window" back in the days before Mac OS X. "Oh, you mean this folder." There was no such thing as a "Finder window" that "displayed the contents of a folder." Double-clicking a folder opened it. The resulting window was the folder. When scrolling, moving, or resizing that window, there was no doubt about which folder was being affected. And the stability of the interface was such that there was no doubt about what that folder would look like the next time it was opened.

The illusion was so powerful and so like the familiar physical world that the Finder itself disappeared as a separate entity. It has been said that "the interface is the computer", meaning that the average user makes no distinction between the way he interacts with the computer and the reality of the computer's internal operation. If the interface is hard to use, the computer is hard to use, and so on. The interface is the computer.

[voodoo]

The Spatial Finder is spatial where it counts. It's spatial where a failure to do so would lead to confusion or decrease efficiency. For example, if there was a one-to-many relationship between folders and windows, the connection between the act of window manipulation and the state of the folders themselves would be lost. This can be demonstrated quite easily in the Mac OS X Finder. Simply show the contents of the same folder in two different windows, move one window to one location on the screen and the other window to another location, and finally close both windows. When you open that folder again, where will the window be?

It's dangerously easy to defeat spatial orientation. Even the smallest disconnection shatters the illusion, turning what was once an utterly convincing and understandable world of files and folders into an arbitrary heap of windows, full of icons and widgets, signifying nothing

[theolein]

Originally posted by Don Pickett:
Just my $0.02:

The column mode is a godsend when navigating through large server hierarchies. I am currently working at a place which has not just the Worst Organized Server Ever, but the Biggest Freakin' Worst Organized Server Ever � terabytes and terabytes of crap all over the place. The column view makes running around the thing simple and logical. I tend to go back and forth between list and column on my home machine, but at work it's column all the way.

This is the main thing I love about column view: You always have a logical view of the hierarchy. However, I think Apple's setting of the root fo the hierarchy by clicking on some icon in favourites is a bad idea (although you can get around it by using cmd -up arrow). Since I started using OSX I have ONLY used column view. It is the only view where I can see all the files and not get hopelessly lost with fifteen windows open at once.

I can, however, understand the beef that people who like the classic OS mode have with OSX finder and its multiple views of a single folder and the desktop not being the conceptual root. That is just wrong. The funny thing is that it would be so easy to correct. Apple could just rename the Desktop folder to .Desktop and it would dissappear from the finder view as a viewable folder. That is exactly what they did in classic OS in any case. I'm also sure that adding code to the finder for only allowing single open windows of folders when in spatial mode would also not really be that difficult.

The reason Apple has NOT done it is obvious, however. Apple badly wanted as many Windows converts as possible and purposely opted to make OSX more familiar to them and the Unix crowd.

[voodoo]

posted by theolein:

The reason Apple has NOT done it is obvious, however. Apple badly wanted as many Windows converts as possible and purposely opted to make OSX more familiar to them and the Unix crowd.

I think that is the only logical explaination theolein. OS X was made with switchers in mind. AFAIK there was never supposed to be any kind of spatial Finder in OS X. It was squeezed in 'last minute' for the 10.0.0 release. It was poorly done then and it hasn't changed a bit. The browser Finder has improved and is almost good for a browser file navigator. No work has been done to maintain the spatial Finder. A crying shame if you ask me.

I've been playing around in GNOME lately and to my surprise it is incredibly similar to the OS X Finder 10.3. Like OS X Finder it doesn't have the Macintosh look and feel but it works just fine. It doesn't have Quartz but that isn't an interface element anyway. Just eye candy.

The 10.4 Finder has to bring some 'new' features, and if my suspicion is correct Apple will implement even more spatial elements into it like they did with 10.2 and 10.3.

[Mediaman_12]

well I for one spent motst of the time command clicking through windows in OS9 so that one window automatically closed when the new one opened, OSX's finder was just an extention of what I had been doing already.
One thing I don't want to see in the Mac OS EVER is a crappy directory tree (like in windows). God I hate that thing, by the time it gets useful it's far to big and always involves loads of vertical and horizontal scrolling to see the directory you want to open.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by theolein:
This is the main thing I love about column view: You always have a logical view of the hierarchy. However, I think Apple's setting of the root fo the hierarchy by clicking on some icon in favourites is a bad idea (although you can get around it by using cmd -up arrow). Since I started using OSX I have ONLY used column view. It is the only view where I can see all the files and not get hopelessly lost with fifteen windows open at once.

I can, however, understand the beef that people who like the classic OS mode have with OSX finder and its multiple views of a single folder and the desktop not being the conceptual root. That is just wrong. The funny thing is that it would be so easy to correct. Apple could just rename the Desktop folder to .Desktop and it would dissappear from the finder view as a viewable folder. That is exactly what they did in classic OS in any case. I'm also sure that adding code to the finder for only allowing single open windows of folders when in spatial mode would also not really be that difficult.

For some types of work the CLI GUI metaphor is very good. For most types of work the spatial metaphor is better. It is obvious by the near instant love UNIX and some Windows geeks experience with the Column way of navigating, that they like it because it means something to them. It is a graphical representation of the CLI.

Those of us who started out as Macintosh users at System 7 or whathave you will never really come to terms with that as our main interface with the computer. To us the CLI (hence Column) type of browsing is only used for certain occations. Especially LARGE folders that change content frequently, big databases and such. Everywhere you'd use CLI you'd want to use the Column type of browsing. Now if you are just using your computer as a personal computer as most Mac users do then the spatial type of browsing is more effective. When you need thumbnail icons to be spread over a window to get a glance at what you have there or when you need to move a few files to another folder.. like most people do then spatial is the thing.Its visual representation of what is going on is very very important for people who don't use computers more than 2-3 hours a day.

Those people should have the option of a true spatial Finder. Like they did back in the 90s and 80s.

I guess they'll have to turn to GNOME. How bizarre!

[Cipher13]

You people still use the Finder?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
You people still use the Finder?

Is PathFinder spatial?

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Is PathFinder spatial?

It can be.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
It can be.

Then I'm looking into it.

[Cipher13]

I'll set it up somewhat spacially, and get a few screengrabs for ya. Hold up.

[Cipher13]

Spatial:



Non-spatial:



Hope that's what you wanted?

The latter is how I usually run PathFinder (though usually with the left drawer and Terminal draw closed). This is on my 10.3 iBook, btw.

[voodoo]

Yes, it is. Thanks! I'm going to test this app as soon as I get home from school today!

(I wouldn't be surprised to find that a shareware app beats the Apple Finder.. I can't imagine having said that 4 years ago!)

[moonmonkey]

can someone post the gnome 2.6 screenshots?

The link is bust and I want to see them!

[voodoo]

http://sayamindu.t35.com/images/default_desktop.jpg

link works ok for me.

[moonmonkey]

Originally posted by voodoo:
http://sayamindu.t35.com/images/default_desktop.jpg

link works ok for me.

Not working for me, site must be banned in China.

[Vpro7]

Originally posted by voodoo:
No no no.

In spatial view you CAN NOT see the contents of the same folder in two seperate windows!

But I want that, for what I do, it's a godsend to be able to have that kind of flexibilty, criticism of this is just GUI jokckeys playing design semantics without considering the consequences.

Column view, non-spatial windows = good one!!!

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Vpro7:
But I want that, for what I do, it's a godsend to be able to have that kind of flexibilty, criticism of this is just GUI jokckeys playing design semantics without considering the consequences.

Column view, non-spatial windows = good one!!!

That's part of the problem with the cult of spatiality.

Note that not all people who like spatial metaphors are members of 'the cult of spatiality'. To be a cult member, you have to decry all other options as inferior, with spatial metaphors being The One True Way. This appears to be Siracusa's stand, as well as many people who hate column view. It is fairly common for people to suggest that column view be completely removed from the Finder ('ditched' is another common term); that is the mark of a cultist.

Spatial metaphors served OS9 (and earlier versions) well, despite the fact that no real-world gains have ever been shown to come from it. However, other metaphors existed in other operating systems. Some were less useful, but some were better, and the Mac OS incorporated some of these as time went by (the first example being List view). Column view is nothing more than another example of this: a useful metaphor being incorporated into the OS. Why it has been the target of so much hatred, I cannot explain.

[lenox]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Wonderful, so GNOME has succumbed to the cult of spatiality.

Spatial metaphors are good. They are not, however, The One True Way. Think for a moment: in terms of real-world usage, has the breaking of the spatial metaphor in OSX (independent of any other factor) impacted your workflow in any way? More than likely, it has not.

The lack of a true spatial finder has confused me, allowed my directories and files to become a cluttered mess similar to a *gasp* windows desktop, among many, many other ways it has impacted my workflow. I understand Jobs saying he doesn't want the user to be the 'janitor' for the filesystem, and that was his reason for moving away from a spatial finder. But guess what happens when you fire the janitor, say, in real life? Things start getting stinky and clogged pretty quickly. People like the option to organize things the way they want, especially mac users. It worked great in classic Mac OS. A well-organized machine was truly a beauty to navigate. Things made sense, not to mention the muscle memory that was built up. Sure, the initial impact on your workflow might arise, but you'll more than make up for it over time.