[warmspit]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/25/in...rtner=homepage

this is the sort of thing that is more important than THK drinking a beer...odd, that I am the only one here concerned enough to post it.....

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Oct. 24 - The Iraqi interim government has warned the United States and international nuclear inspectors that nearly 380 tons of powerful conventional explosives - used to demolish buildings, produce missile warheads and detonate nuclear weapons - are missing from one of Iraq's most sensitive former military installations.

The huge facility, called Al Qaqaa, was supposed to be under American military control but is now a no-man's land, still picked over by looters as recently as Saturday. United Nations weapons inspectors had monitored the explosives for many years, but White House and Pentagon officials acknowledge that the explosives vanished after the American invasion last year.

The White House said President Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, was informed within the past month that the explosives were missing. It is unclear whether President Bush was informed. American officials have never publicly announced the disappearance, but beginning last week they answered questions about it posed by The New York Times and the CBS News program "60 Minutes."

American weapons experts say their immediate concern is that the explosives could be used in major bombing attacks against American or Iraqi forces: the explosives, mainly HMX and RDX, could be used to produce bombs strong enough to shatter airplanes or tear apart buildings. The bomb that brought down Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988 used less than a pound of the material of the type stolen from Al Qaqaa, and somewhat larger amounts were apparently used in the bombing of a housing complex in November 2003 in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and the blasts in a Moscow apartment complex in September 1999 that killed nearly 300 people......

[warmspit]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...1506&ncid=2043

Kerry's response>

Kerry demands answers about missing explosives

27 minutes ago
U.S. National - AFP

PORTSMOUTH, United States (AFP) - Democrat challenger John Kerry (news - web sites)'s campaign demanded answers from President George W. Bush (news - web sites) about the disappearance of nearly 400 tonnes of conventional explosives in Iraq (news - web sites), as the deadlocked White House race entered its final week.

In a campaign underpinned by the basic question of who will make Americans safer, the Kerry camp pounced on revelations of the missing explosives, on a day when it also expects a boost from the return of former president Bill Clinton (news - web sites) to the campaign trail.

"Today, the Bush administration must answer for what may be the most grave and catastrophic mistake in a tragic series of blunders in Iraq," senior Kerry advisor Joe Lockhart said in a statement dispatched before sunrise.

"How did they fail to secure nearly 380 tons of known, deadly explosives despite clear warnings from the International Atomic Energy Agency to do so? Why was this information unearthed by reporters -- and was it covered up by our national security officials?"

"These explosives can be used to blow up airplanes, level buildings, attack our troops and detonate nuclear weapons.

"The Bush administration knew where this stockpile was, but took no action to secure the site."

The International Atomic Energy Agency on Monday confirmed a report in The New York Times that the interim government of Iraq had voiced concern over the disappearance.

An IAEA spokeswoman added that the agency feared the powerful explosives may have "fallen into the wrong hands, terrorists'."

----

but it was more important to secure the oil ministry. I hope the families of the fallen US soldiers don't realize that their sons are getting blown up with conventional explosives Bush failed to secure.

[icruise]

I'm sure Bush will find some way to spin this to his advantage. "Look how dangerous the world is! You think John Kerry can protect you from terrorists armed with 380 tons of explosives?"

[xi_hyperon]

Yeah, it's been all over the news today. Quite inexcusable to say the least.

I didn't bother posting about it because it's one of those things that puts me at a loss for words; it's just so hard to contemplate the stupidity.

Thanks to everyone in this brilliant, forward-thinking administration for making us safe!



Back to your regularly scheduled program of THK watching and other equally Important Issues�.

[warmspit]

from the Kerry campaign:

For Immediate Release

October 25, 2004

BUSH'S FAILURE TO SECURE IRAQI EXPLOSIVES HAS MADE THE WORLD LESS SAFE

Today, the New York Times revealed that the Bush Administration failed to secure
nearly 380 tons of high-grade explosives in Iraq shortly after the United States
took control over the country, despite being informed of their exact location. The
failure to secure the explosives has led to three major concerns:

1) The weapons could end up or have already ended up in the hands of a terrorist
group;

2) The explosives might be used against our troops on the ground; and

3) The explosives could be used to carry out a deadly attack against America or our
allies.

NEW REVELATION: Failure To Secure Iraqi Explosives May Mean that Powerful Explosives
are in Hands of Terrorists

Bush Administration Remained Silent About the Disappearance of Explosives. "The
White House said President Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, was
informed within the past month that the explosives were missing. It is unclear
whether President Bush was informed. American officials have never publicly
announced the disappearance, but beginning last week they answered questions about
it posed by The New York Times and the CBS News program '60 Minutes.'" 10/25/04]

Explosives May Help Terrorists Create Chaos. "In May, an internal I.A.E.A.
memorandum warned that terrorists might be helping 'themselves to the greatest
explosives bonanza in history.'"

Explosives Could Be Used For Nuclear Weapon. "The explosives could also be used to
trigger a nuclear weapon, which was why international nuclear inspectors had kept a
watch on the material."

NEW REVELATION: Bush Administration Was Warned About Possible Looting of Explosives
But Failed To Act

Bush Administration Ignored Warnings of Leaving Explosives Unsupervised. "A European
diplomat reported that Jacques Baute, head of the I.A.E.A.'s Iraq nuclear inspection
team, warned officials at the United States mission in Vienna about the danger of
the nuclear sites and materials once under I.A.E.A. supervision, including Al Qaqaa.
But apparently, little was done. A senior Bush administration official said that
during the initial race to Baghdad, American forces 'went through the bunkers, but
saw no materials bearing the I.A.E.A. seal.' It is unclear whether they ever
returned."

Kerry called on Bush to secure Iraq from looting
"Yesterday, Kerry took issue with the Bush administration's post-war policies in
Iraq. 'I think they wasted a month,' Kerry said. 'They lost a serious amount of time
because they didn't have a plan. They have allowed looting to take place that has
done more damage to the infrastructure than any bomb.'" Journal-Bulletin, 5/23/03]

Bush / Administration Played Down Looting at the Time:

Bush Was Unconcerned About Looting. When asked in April 2003 about concerns of
looting, Bush said: "The statue comes down on Wednesday, and the headlines start to
read, 'Oh, there's disorder.' Well, no kidding... But just like the military
campaign was second-guessed, I'm sure the plan is being -- but we will be
successful."

Rumsfeld on Looting: "Stuff Happens". "'Freedom's untidy, and free people are free
to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things,' Rumsfeld said. ... Looting,
he added, was not uncommon for countries that experience significant social
upheaval. 'Stuff happens,' Rumsfeld said."

White House Said Looting Was Part of Liberation Process. In April 2003, asked about
looting in Iraq, White House Spokesman Ari Fleischer said: "Clearly, anything that
involves looting is not desirable. It is worth noting that what you are seeing is a
reaction to oppression. ... It's also a situation the world has seen before when
oppressed people find freedom. For a short period of time, these actions have
occurred in history. You saw it in Sierra Leone, you saw it in the Soviet Union with
the collapse of the Soviet Union. And nobody likes to see it, but I think it has to
be understood in the context of people who have been oppressed, who are reacting to
the oppression..."

White House Said Stories About Looting Were Overblown. Asked about the widespread
looting in Iraq, Fleischer said: "This is almost starting to remind me of the
stories that said our forces were bogged down, as people watched 24, 36 hours' worth
of people reacting to the oppression from which they suffered. ...but there's no
question, in the President's judgment, that what's happening is people are finding
liberation, are finding freedom."

NEW REVELATION: Explosives May Be Used Against Our Troops

Immediate Concern Is Weapons Could Be Used Against Troops. "American weapons experts
say their immediate concern is that the explosives could be used in major bombing
attacks against American or Iraqi forces: the explosives, mainly HMX and RDX, could
be used to produce bombs strong enough to shatter airplanes or tear apart
buildings."

Same Type of Explosives Have Been Used By Terrorists Before. "The bomb that brought
down Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988 used less than a pound of
the material of the type stolen from Al Qaqaa, and somewhat larger amounts were
apparently used in the bombing of a housing complex in November 2003 in Riyadh,
Saudi Arabia, and the blasts in a Moscow apartment complex in September 1999 that
killed nearly 300 people."

Bush Said He Would Do Everything To Keep U.S. Soldiers Safe.

Bush: "Look, we just need strong support for our troops. And I have a solemn duty to
say to you as squarely as I can, we will do the very best we possibly can to make
your loved one safe. That's what we owe the family members, and that's what we owe
the troops."

[Mrjinglesusa]

BUSH =

[itai195]

The news from Iraq seems to just get worse and worse

[shmerek]

No response from the Bushites yet....

[icruise]

They're waiting for their marching orders.

[warmspit]

Originally posted by shmerek:
No response from the Bushites yet....

too busy with issues of substance: whether Kerry met with ALL the UN advisors or just some, whether THK can drink a beer, and what color dress Laura Bush wears....or maybe just whether (M)ann Coulter is hot in leather nighties

just don't have enough time, following all those important stories, to worry whehter Bush's incompetence has directly led to deaths of US servicemen in theatre.

nope, don't wann worry bout it.

[warmspit]

Originally posted by Icruise:
They're waiting for their marching orders.

hey! those are FREEDOM IS ON THE MARCH� marching orders to you, bub.

[RAILhead]

How about a date on when they were discovered "missing" -- anyone have one? The article itself never dates anything other than saying we knew they were missing "after the American invasion last year." LAST YEAR.

Get it? This isn't NEW news, this is OLD news, rehashed and spit out right before the election. Anyone that thinks this isn't a blatant partisan attempt at another dig at Bush is a moron.

Move along...nothing to see here...

Maury

[Nicko]

Originally posted by Icruise:
They're waiting for their marching orders.

[Logic]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
How about a date on when they were discovered "missing" -- anyone have one? The article itself never dates anything other than saying we knew they were missing "after the American invasion last year." LAST YEAR.

Get it? This isn't NEW news, this is OLD news, rehashed and spit out right before the election. Anyone that thinks this isn't a blatant partisan attempt at another dig at Bush is a moron.

Move along...nothing to see here...

Maury

Since it's old news it shouldn't be too difficult for you to dig up anything in the various news outlets about this from last year. Since it's "OLD news, rehashed and spit out right before the election"......

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
How about a date on when they were discovered "missing" -- anyone have one? The article itself never dates anything other than saying we knew they were missing "after the American invasion last year." LAST YEAR.

Get it? This isn't NEW news, this is OLD news, rehashed and spit out right before the election. Anyone that thinks this isn't a blatant partisan attempt at another dig at Bush is a moron.

Move along...nothing to see here...

Maury

You're right. Failing to secure massive munitions dumps after the invasion should have no bearing on the election which is supposed to be a referendum on how well we think Bush has done in the war on terror.

Just repeat the words "terror, freedom, democracy, hope" over and over and continue ignoring the facts that would seem to demonstrate gross incompetence and even dangerous neglect.

[warmspit]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
How about a date on when they were discovered "missing" -- anyone have one? The article itself never dates anything other than saying we knew they were missing "after the American invasion last year." LAST YEAR.

Get it? This isn't NEW news, this is OLD news, rehashed and spit out right before the election. Anyone that thinks this isn't a blatant partisan attempt at another dig at Bush is a moron.

Move along...nothing to see here...

Maury

wow...is that the best spin ya got? How about this: the bush administration intentionally COVERED UP this report for a year, fearing its effect on the election, and is now UPSET at the leak.

If you don't think 380 tons of high quality explosives in non-coalition hands in theatre is IMPORTANT, you must be wishing for american troops to die in more car bomb attacks.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by Logic:
Since it's old news it shouldn't be too difficult for you to dig up anything in the various news outlets about this from last year. Since it's "OLD news, rehashed and spit out right before the election"......

Here's something from the IAEA Report in 2003:

53. The relocation and consumption of HMX (a high explosive of potential use in nuclear weapons), as described in Iraq's backlog of semi-annual declarations, has been investigated by the IAEA. In those declarations, Iraq stated that, between 1998 and 2002, it had transferred 32 of the 228 tonnes of HMX which had been under IAEA seal as of December 1998 to other locations. In addition, Iraq stated that a very small quantity (46 kg) of HMX had been used at munitions factories for research and development. At the request of the IAEA, Iraq has provided further clarification on the movement and use of the HMX. In that clarification, Iraq indicated that the 32 tonnes of HMX had been blended with sulphur to produce industrial explosives and provided mainly to cement plants for quarrying, and that the research and development using the small quantity of HMX had been in the areas of personnel mines, explosives in civilian use, missile warhead filling and research on tanks.


54. IAEA inspectors have been able to verify and re-seal the remaining balance of approximately 196 tonnes of HMX, most of which has remained at the original storage location. The movement of the blended HMX and the other small quantity of HMX has also been documented by Iraq. However, it has not been possible to verify the use of those materials, as all of it is said to have been consumed through explosions and there are no immediately available technical means for verifying such uses. The IAEA will continue to investigate means of verifying the Iraqi statements about the use of the HMX and blended HMX.

So, the REAL questions is this: where did the other 150 tonnes go that the inspector's missed?

Maury

[shmerek]

If these explosives are used to kill Americans the blame can be laid directly at the feet of the Bush administration for not providing the proper security. End of story.

[itai195]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
How about a date on when they were discovered "missing" -- anyone have one? The article itself never dates anything other than saying we knew they were missing "after the American invasion last year." LAST YEAR.

Get it? This isn't NEW news, this is OLD news, rehashed and spit out right before the election. Anyone that thinks this isn't a blatant partisan attempt at another dig at Bush is a moron.

Move along...nothing to see here...

Maury

Reading comprehension always helps... Anything catch your attention in this excerpt?

White House and Pentagon officials acknowledge that the explosives vanished sometime after the American-led invasion last year.

The White House said President Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, was informed within the past month that the explosives were missing. It is unclear whether President Bush was informed. American officials have never publicly announced the disappearance, but beginning last week they answered questions about it posed by The New York Times and the CBS News program "60 Minutes."

Old news?

[shmerek]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Here's something from the IAEA Report in 2003:



So, the REAL questions is this: where did the other 150 tonnes go that the inspector's missed?

Maury

Oh it is the inspectors fault. Got it.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
How about a date on when they were discovered "missing" -- anyone have one? The article itself never dates anything other than saying we knew they were missing "after the American invasion last year." LAST YEAR.

Get it? This isn't NEW news, this is OLD news, rehashed and spit out right before the election. Anyone that thinks this isn't a blatant partisan attempt at another dig at Bush is a moron.

Move along...nothing to see here...

Maury

Suuuuuure. This is OLD news that ALL the major news carriers are JUST NOW putting out in a concerted effort to "dig at Bush". Seriously, that's the best you can come up with? That somehow the media have been sitting on a story about 300 tons of missing explosives for OVER A YEAR? Maybe, just maybe, the PENTAGON held onto the story? And, IF this is "rehashed and spit out" give me a link to where it was FIRST reported "over a year ago".

[Mrjinglesusa]

To add: This is another typical example of a Republican BLINDLY following Bush and his incompetence in the face of YET ANOTHER example of his mishandling of this "War on Terror". We get it. Bush can do no wrong. Even he himself could not come up with ONE example of somewhere he messed up in the last 4 years.

[warmspit]

If there is any justice in the world, Bush is Toast.

[andi*pandi]

Justice is blinded by Ashcroft's sheet and can see nothing.

[shmerek]

Originally posted by warmspit:
If there is any justice in the world, Bush is Toast.

Unfortunately there is no justice in the world

[warmspit]

Originally posted by shmerek:
Unfortunately there is no justice in the world

I know, not YET.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by Mrjinglesusa:
To add: This is another typical example of a Republican BLINDLY following Bush and his incompetence in the face of YET ANOTHER example of his mishandling of this "War on Terror". We get it. Bush can do no wrong. Even he himself could not come up with ONE example of somewhere he messed up in the last 4 years.

I do not agree... this is another example of Democrats accepting nothing shy of perfection in an imperfect world.

[Logic]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I do not agree... this is another example of Democrats accepting nothing shy of perfection in an imperfect world.

Let me see.

Before the invasion a couple of hundred tons of high explosives were safe.

Invasion happens.

Oil ministry is guarded but not various nuclear research sites as well as other military important locations.

A couple of hundred tons of high explosives disappear.


And this is the Democrats fault somehow?

[itai195]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I do not agree... this is another example of Democrats accepting nothing shy of perfection in an imperfect world.

I thought conservatives were supposed to expect accountability from their government? That's all I ask for. Instead, we get platitudes like 'freedom is messy.'

[icruise]

Originally posted by Logic:
And this is the Democrats fault somehow?

Haven't you caught on yet? Everything is the Democrats' fault.

[vmarks]

Kerry said terrorists could use the material �to kill our troops, our people, blow up airplanes and level buildings.�

�This is one of the great blunders of Iraq, one of the greatest blunders of this administration and the incredible incompetence of this president and this administration has put our troops at risk and this country at greater risk.�

I guess John Kerry feels we were safer when the material was in the hands of Saddam Hussein, because after all ... Saddam was no threat, even though ... he had hundreds of tons of high explosives that could be used to manufacture nuclear weapons, but ... he had no plans for WMD ... uh ... but
...

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by vmarks:
I guess John Kerry feels we were safer when the material was in the hands of Saddam Hussein, because after all ... Saddam was no threat, even though ... he had hundreds of tons of high explosives that could be used to manufacture nuclear weapons, but ... he had no plans for WMD ... uh ... but

That's right. Anyone who thinks Bush is doing a terrible job is obviously someone who loves Saddam and wishes he were still in power.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Kerry said terrorists could use the material �to kill our troops, our people, blow up airplanes and level buildings.�

�This is one of the great blunders of Iraq, one of the greatest blunders of this administration and the incredible incompetence of this president and this administration has put our troops at risk and this country at greater risk.�

I guess John Kerry feels we were safer when the material was in the hands of Saddam Hussein, because after all ... Saddam was no threat, even though ... he had hundreds of tons of high explosives that could be used to manufacture nuclear weapons, but ... he had no plans for WMD ... uh ... but
...

At least we KNEW WHERE THEY WERE and WHO had them. Now we don't. The weapons inspections WORKED. We knew Saddam had the explosives. They were ALL accounted for. Now they are GONE. Do you feel safer?

[warmspit]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Kerry said terrorists could use the material �to kill our troops, our people, blow up airplanes and level buildings.�

�This is one of the great blunders of Iraq, one of the greatest blunders of this administration and the incredible incompetence of this president and this administration has put our troops at risk and this country at greater risk.�

I guess John Kerry feels we were safer when the material was in the hands of Saddam Hussein, because after all ... Saddam was no threat, even though ... he had hundreds of tons of high explosives that could be used to manufacture nuclear weapons, but ... he had no plans for WMD ... uh ... but
...

right...so its Kerry's fault?

this is the most blameless administration, ever. (in their own minds and the minds of their supporters)

[itai195]

Originally posted by vmarks:
[B]I guess John Kerry feels we were safer when the material was in the hands of Saddam Hussein, because after all ... Saddam was no threat, even though ... he had hundreds of tons of high explosives that could be used to manufacture nuclear weapons, but ... he had no plans for WMD ... uh ... but

Scrap metal could also be used for WMD, I guess that's also justification for invasion?

[tie]

I don't like how people always post bad news about Iraq. But then there is a lot of bad news, so what can one do?

Here is an interesting NY Times article on the success of the Dutch soldiers in Iraq. The Dutch experience is not entirely comparable to that of the Americans. But the contrast is still interesting. Apparently, the Dutch have tried to stay open and accessible to the community (banning mirrored sunglasses, hats, using open vehicles). There have only been two Dutch soldiers killed in the area. But American convoys drive through town at full speed, occasionally hitting and killing civilians without stopping. Comments? Stories like this and Abu Ghraib make me worry that we aren't doing a good job representing America and America's universal ideals to Iraqis. Our locked-off Green Zone brings America to Iraq, but segregates it completely.

Dutch Soldiers Find Smiles Are a More Effective Protection
By NORIMITSU ONISHI
Published: October 24, 2004

SAMAWA, Iraq - In a neighborhood here without lights, its pockmarked dirt streets and open sewers faintly visible under the full moon, the Dutch soldiers began a foot patrol on a recent evening. After getting out of their soft-top vehicles, the soldiers entered a street, wearing no helmets and pointing their guns down, chatting with Iraqis clustered in front of their homes.

"Hello, Mister!" some boys cried out, and they followed the soldiers to the bend in the road. Driving through the town later, the Dutch called out "Salaam Aleikum" to pedestrians. Many Iraqis, adults and children, waved at them.

Part neighborhood police officers, part social workers, the soldiers managed to practice in Iraq what the Netherlands has come to call the Dutch approach to patrolling. Scarred by national shame over the Dutch peacekeepers who proved powerless to stop the Bosnian Serbs from rolling into the United Nations enclave of Srebrenica in 1995 and killing thousands of Muslims, the Dutch have nonetheless managed to keep a soft touch, honed in Afghanistan and now on display in this small town on the Euphrates.

Instead of armored vehicles, the Dutch drive vehicles that leave them exposed to the people around them. To encourage interaction with local residents, they go bare-headed and are forbidden to wear mirror sunglasses. Making soldiers accessible and vulnerable to their surroundings increases their security, they contend. Making them inaccessible decreases it.

"You would lose contact with the people," said Lt. Col. Kees Matthijssen, the commander of the Dutch force in Iraq. "In fact, the support and the consent of the people is a form of protection. If you have good contact with the people, if it's easy to talk to the people, people always give you some information. You know what's in their minds, what they're thinking, what's worrying them."

Samawa, one of the quietest spots in Iraq outside the Kurdish north, is a world away from the lawlessness that has spread across Baghdad and other cities. What the Dutch face here cannot be compared with what American soldiers must deal with in the capital or in the Sunni triangle, where they are confronted daily with a deadly resistance.

Yet, perhaps unfairly, the Americans do get compared with the Dutch here, in a way that underscores how difficult it will be for Americans to win back some of the popular support they enjoyed after the fall of Saddam Hussein. American soldiers are not based here, but they regularly make short, though lasting, appearances. American convoys traveling the main highway between Baghdad and Kuwait force their way through Samawa's crowded main street at full speed and, fearful of becoming targets, do not stop even after causing fatal accidents, Dutch and Iraqi officials here say. Worried about car-bombers, American soldiers in armored vehicles point guns at drivers to keep cars away.

At this point, Colonel Matthijssen said, he could not say whether the Dutch approach would be feasible in a place like Baghdad. "On the other hand, it might have helped," he said. "Everybody is aware of how the Iraqi population is looking at the Americans now. They are happy that the Americans liberated them from Saddam Hussein, but I wonder if the population is still happy with what the Americans are doing now."

The Dutch force, made up of 1,350 troops, is in charge of security in Muthanna Province, of which Samawa is the capital. In their 14 months here, two of their soldiers have been killed, one in a grenade attack and another in a vehicle ambush. The deaths caused the Dutch, at the highest levels of government, to rethink their approach.

But they concluded that the killings were isolated incidents and that the local authorities and population remained on their side. Their soft approach, they concluded, would keep them safer than hunkering down in armored vehicles.

"If we have to abandon the Dutch approach, it would be better for us to go home," said a 23-year-old first lieutenant who insisted on being identified only by his first name, Wietse.

The lieutenant, who commands a platoon of 27 soldiers, oversees a $25,000 budget for community projects. After consulting with a superior, he can decide to finance the repair of a road, fence or other projects he has found worthy on his patrols.

During the recent evening patrol, the soldiers walked through a neighborhood for about half an hour. They talked to local residents, through an Iraqi interpreter who always accompanies them.

"They are respectful, much better than the Americans," said one resident, Hussein Kamel, 50.

A neighbor, Assad Abdul Razak, said he found it "provocative" that the Dutch entered the neighborhood carrying guns. But most Iraqi comments tended toward the positive.

The sergeant leading the evening patrol, who spoke on condition that he be identified only by his first name, Rene, said: "We must be respectful. It's their country. We are only guests here."

Karim Hleibit al-Zayad, the police chief here, made a clear distinction between the Dutch and Americans: "The Dutch have tried seriously to understand our traditions. We do not view them as an occupying force, but a friendly one. The Americans are an occupying force. I agree they helped us get rid of the past regime, but they should not take away our dignity."

In Samawa, Chief Zayad and others here said, the American convoys represent the greatest affront to Iraqi dignity. The Dutch and Iraqis say the convoys indiscriminately hit private cars and pedestrians, treating Iraqis only as obstacles to be removed. A few weeks ago, one such convoy struck a car, killing two Iraqi passengers and injuring three, the Dutch said. The convoy never stopped.

Because of the convoys, "dislike is growing" for the Americans, Colonel Matthijssen said.

"Of course, an American is a different type of human than a Dutchman," the colonel said. "We have our own culture. But I think the Americans could have a way of operating with more respect and more understanding toward the population."

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by tie:
I don't like how people always post bad news about Iraq. But then there is a lot of bad news, so what can one do?

Here is an interesting NY Times article on the success of the Dutch soldiers in Iraq. The Dutch experience is not entirely comparable to that of the Americans. But the contrast is still interesting. Apparently, the Dutch have tried to stay open and accessible to the community (banning mirrored sunglasses, hats, using open vehicles). There have only been two Dutch soldiers killed in the area. But American convoys drive through town at full speed, occasionally hitting and killing civilians without stopping. Comments? Stories like this and Abu Ghraib make me worry that we aren't doing a good job representing America and America's universal ideals to Iraqis. Our locked-off Green Zone brings America to Iraq, but segregates it completely.

Bad news sells newspapers.

[warmspit]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Bad news sells newspapers.

Or, if bad news happens, it gets covered (usually).

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by Mrjinglesusa:
At least we KNEW WHERE THEY WERE and WHO had them. Now we don't. The weapons inspections WORKED. We knew Saddam had the explosives. They were ALL accounted for. Now they are GONE. Do you feel safer?

...but if you read the report, the inspectors DIDN'T know where all of them were.



We knew they had weapons/materials they shouldn't, we didn't want them passing them around to everyone, we went in to get what we could, they weren't there. This has been happening since before the WoT. It's cat and mouse, it's hide and seek. It's reality. That's the way it is. What do we do? The best we can -- and I think that's exactly what our forces are doing.

Do I feel safer? No less safe, for sure, because these materials have been on the run for 19 some-odd months already. There's even a chance that all of the material has been used-up. There's a chance it hasn't.

Maury

[warmspit]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
...but if you read the report, the inspectors DIDN'T know where all of them were.



We knew they had weapons/materials they shouldn't, we didn't want them passing them around to everyone, we went in to get what we could, they weren't there. This has been happening since before the WoT. It's cat and mouse, it's hide and seek. It's reality. That's the way it is. What do we do? The best we can -- and I think that's exactly what our forces are doing.

Do I feel safer? No less safe, for sure, because these materials have been on the run for 19 some-odd months already. There's even a chance that all of the material has been used-up. There's a chance it hasn't.

Maury

but they knew where THIS cache was...so not sure how your argument holds any weight in this instance.
Not sure you understand this story.

unless your point is that we invaded Iraq to find weapons of mass destruction so when we got there we could let the insurgents steal the conventional explosives we already knew about and the UN inspectors were keeping track of, but we couldn't be bothered to protect (oil ministry too important) to make weapons to use against the coalition troops, while the the American troops were there to hunt for weapons that didn't exist, and since no one was keeping track of the KNOWN weapons, insured nobody would know they took them.

Right, I have it now.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
How about a date on when they were discovered "missing" -- anyone have one? The article itself never dates anything other than saying we knew they were missing "after the American invasion last year." LAST YEAR.

Get it? This isn't NEW news, this is OLD news, rehashed and spit out right before the election. Anyone that thinks this isn't a blatant partisan attempt at another dig at Bush is a moron.

Move along...nothing to see here...

Maury

So Bush f*cked up last year. Because it's a year old, does that mean he's exempt from explaining the situation?

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by tie:
I don't like how people always post bad news about Iraq. But then there is a lot of bad news, so what can one do?

I love this argument.

If dozens of bombs were killing dozens of people in Boston every other day, would you be lambasting the media for not focusing their reporting on how the Red Sox have a 2 game lead in the World Series?

Bottom line: if people were being blown up in any American city on a daily basis, I don't think the resulting media circus would be as callously dismissed as partisan nitpicking and ignoring all the good things happening across the country.

[kido]

Having read the article, it seems the I.A.E.A is not sure when or under what circumstances the explosives disappeared. They were last accounted for in Jan. 2003 and where supposedly under I.A.E.A seal; however, when coalition forces come thru the area, no explosives where found with the I.A.E.A seal on them suggesting that the Iraqis had relocated them in time surrounding the beginning of the war. Common operating procedure at the time was to move weapons and munitions outside of bunkers because they had a tendency to be destroyed. The coalition forces secured 1000s of tons of munitions and other weapons that were being stored in schools, mosques, hospitals, etc. which in many ways are more dangerous to the people of Iraq as they are less stable and more easily used in bombs. The munitions that are now missing were considered a "medium priority" and while you could argue now that it should have been a higher priority, you should remember that we were more concerned with WMDs stockpiles (yes, yes, I can hear you scream BUT THERE WERE NO STOCKPILES, YOU NAZI!!!) and possible boilogical or chemical weapons attacks on our troops, which we had been led to believe existed by Saddam's actions and statements.

I don't understand why people feel like they were safer with the pre-war status quo. It isn't like these explosives, which the I.A.E.A. says posed a serious threat and could be used to create nuclear bombs, were stored in the police evidence room. They were under the control of a fairly dangerous person and he was not to be trusted. Even more dangerous, they were actual under the control of poor, starving soldiers who would probably not think twice about taking $100 for a ton of the stuff from anyone who asked. Maybe they will use a credit card so we can see the RDX item on their monthly statement. Oh, but we would catch them at the borders, you say, Iraq was inside a box. Right, borders in that area are again not secure. Do you think a Syrian border guard would again not be bribed to let anything go thru no questions asked? Hell, why couldn't they just drive 1/2 a mile off the border road and go around the check points. Most of the explosives were bought and brought to Iraq between 1996 and 2000, from countries like France and Russia, thru these porous borders. There aren't fences between countries, nor friendly governments on all sides to let us know if they see anything. Which candidate is sticking their head in the sand, again? Welcome to the real world, Senator Kerry.

kido

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by kido:
Having read the article, it seems the I.A.E.A is not sure when or under what circumstances the explosives disappeared. They were last accounted for in Jan. 2003 and where supposedly under I.A.E.A seal; however, when coalition forces come thru the area, no explosives where found with the I.A.E.A seal on them suggesting that the Iraqis had relocated them in time surrounding the beginning of the war. Common operating procedure at the time was to move weapons and munitions outside of bunkers because they had a tendency to be destroyed. The coalition forces secured 1000s of tons of munitions and other weapons that were being stored in schools, mosques, hospitals, etc. which in many ways are more dangerous to the people of Iraq as they are less stable and more easily used in bombs. The munitions that are now missing were considered a "medium priority" and while you could argue now that it should have been a higher priority, you should remember that we were more concerned with WMDs stockpiles (yes, yes, I can hear you scream BUT THERE WERE NO STOCKPILES, YOU NAZI!!!) and possible boilogical or chemical weapons attacks on our troops, which we had been led to believe existed by Saddam's actions and statements.

BINGO

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Logic:
Oil ministry is guarded ....

Yup, and due to the document finds there, we were able to uncover and investigate further the extent of the N. Korea-Iraq-Libya nuclear development ring. Soon there after, Libya surrendered it's entire nuclear program. We were also able to uncover the massive UN corruption involved with the oil-for-food program, an episode liberals around the world are rabidly trying to bury as being insignificant.

Saddam did his skumbag business through the oil ministry, using it like a national bank. Being a part of the War on Terror, it was essential to prevent these documents from being destroyed so that they could be sifted thorugh and translated as part of a global investigation.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Yup, and due to the document finds there, we were able to uncover and investigate further the extent of the N. Korea-Iraq-Libya nuclear development ring. Soon there after, Libya surrendered it's entire nuclear program. We were also able to uncover the massive UN corruption involved with the oil-for-food program, an episode liberals around the world are rabidly trying to bury as being insignificant.

Still have no proof.

[cold_reality]

Originally posted by itai195:
The news from Iraq seems to just get worse and worse

"Stuff happens"

I'm thinkin that come January elections, we will all know where the explosives are...one way or another. Unless they ship them to terrorist cells state side.

[tie]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I love this argument.

If dozens of bombs were killing dozens of people in Boston every other day, would you be lambasting the media for not focusing their reporting on how the Red Sox have a 2 game lead in the World Series?

Bottom line: if people were being blown up in any American city on a daily basis, I don't think the resulting media circus would be as callously dismissed as partisan nitpicking and ignoring all the good things happening across the country.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to make this argument. Obviously, this has been hashed and rehashed a hundred times. I was hoping for comment on the American convoys going through a peaceful area, causing fatal traffic accidents without stopping.

The amazing thing though about the bad news is that Bush still hasn't acknowledged that he or his administration made any mistakes. The only person who he has held responsible for a mistake was General Shinseki -- whose mistake was to tell the truth, that we would need 150,000+ troops to secure Iraq.

[RAILhead]

FWIW (according to Drudge), NBC News is apparently going to post a story that states just what I stated: the explosives vanished from site in Iraq at least 18 months ago -- before the troops arrived.

I'll post a link as soon as the story comes into fruition...

Maury

[icruise]

Originally posted by tie:
The amazing thing though about the bad news is that Bush still hasn't acknowledged that he or his administration made any mistakes. The only person who he has held responsible for a mistake was General Shinseki -- whose mistake was to tell the truth, that we would need 150,000+ troops to secure Iraq.

I would have a lot more respect for Bush and his followers if they could admit that the man had EVER made a mistake. Whenever there is a story posted here critical of the Bush administration, their knee-jerk reaction is to condemn it as partisan trickery -- after all, Bush couldn't possibly have screwed up, could he?