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The God Thread: NO nonbelievers need apply (Page 2)
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Helmling  (op)
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Jun 21, 2008, 08:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak View Post
You should believe in God if you wish to take a path that billions of people have taken before you - a path that has provided many with serenity, and the guidance to help your psyche as you encounter life's numerous hurdles.

I'm not really a religious guy, but I've always thought of the Bible as the premier guide to dealing with life. Some people I know go through self-help books like water. Others who are religious... the Bible is all they seem to need, no matter their age or situation.
Following the footsteps of billions of Christians, some of whom are guilty of atrocity and hypocrisy in the name of your faith, is not at all compelling. Certainly you cannot claim it has brought serenity to all its followers.

But if I have found serenity myself without religion, then what?
     
Helmling  (op)
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Jun 21, 2008, 08:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
No I really can't. If someone told me Zeuss was going to strike me down with a rod of lightning and I would be rendered a small goat-man in Hades it wouldn't bother me a bit. Why? Because I don't believe in Zeuss or goat-men or Hades.
You might think differently if you actually had to live surrounded by Zeus worshippers.
     
ebuddy
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Jun 21, 2008, 09:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
You know, I'm a little embarrassed of myself right now. I'd started this thread as an invitation to civilized dialogue, but when things went south I too became flippant and negative.
*(I actually began this reply just after typing my first reply. I'm trying to re-seal my driveway and the rain let up. I ran out to finish patching holes and was too tired when I came back.)

Don't be embarrassed of yourself Helmling. Seriously. You initiated the thread and regardless of who went there first, the outcome would've been no different. I've been guilty of coming at people strong unnecessarily. It's all good. I appreciate your humility.

Thank you for your thoughtful response, ebuddy. If you'd pardon any missteps on my part, I'd like to return to my original intention for this thread.
No problem.

Before, though, I want to make sure I fully understand this--the first real response to my question. Are you saying that the universal need for faith validates the existence of the object of that faith?
Scientifically, there is absolutely nothing that would validate the existence of a deity. The next question would be; "okay then, what's its name?" No name? No god. Entities like this are incalculable and as such do not fit the scientific method. This is why I've maintained that science and faith are two entirely different disciplines. Affirmations of one do not detract from the validity of the other just as holes, gaps, and inconsistencies of one do not validate the other. I'm pointing out that atheism faces the same questions and problems as theism. One thing we know for certain is that faith existed with man from as far back as we can study. This begs the question; did a god create our mind or did our mind create a god? For the atheist, this may be simple; our mind created a god. The problem here is that so many, in every society known to man, have or have had a faith. This faith transcends tribal collectivism or manipulation such as telling people not to eat hoofed animals to avoid displeasing a god when in reality it was because they couldn't cook them properly. There is a spiritual element to faith, wholly unnecessary as a traditional, advantageous trait. I've maintained that the two sides would likely view the exact same evidence and come to differing conclusions based on their own presuppositions. The examples I gave may suggest a supernatural entity to a believer, to a non-believer they are merely natural pending mechanism to explain it; an a priori rejection of the supernatural. Even if the evidence you felt you needed existed, you could resist it.

Out of curiosity, what would it take for you to believe in a god?
ebuddy
     
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Jun 21, 2008, 09:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
Except me, of course.

We always squabble about religion on this board. It seems there's such a huge divide, that we must do something novel to bridge it. I would like to proceed with a simple attempt to understand the position of those who believe in God.

I hope this is a noncontroversial starting point: Why should we believe God exists?
Are you really asking "Why should we believe the God of Abraham, the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob exists?"

For me, one of the main reasons is prophecy.

Isaiah 43:5 - "From the east I will bring your seed, and from the west I will gather you. I will say to the north, "Give," and to the south, "Do not refrain"; bring My sons from afar and My daughters from the end of the earth."

Isaiah 11:12 - "And he shall raise a banner to the nations, and he shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah he shall gather from the four corners of the earth."

Isaiah 27:12 - "And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gather one by one, O children of Israel. And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar will be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem."
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ebuddy
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Jun 21, 2008, 09:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
You might think differently if you actually had to live surrounded by Zeus worshippers.
Only if I felt personally convicted by their message. Seriously. Otherwise, it's mythology. Right?
ebuddy
     
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Jun 21, 2008, 09:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
I'm not really sure why you raise evil and free will right there.
I had cited a study on the positive affects of prayer. You saw a "popularity contest" in the conclusion and questioned the benevolence of God in it. Specifically, my God per your question to me. I challenged this on the logical foundation of perspective. What is benevolence if you lack the opposite with which to compare? What is freewill (taught in my doctrine of faith) or the value of obedience if one is not required to act on it? (prayer)

And if psychic phenomenon do exist--something I'm far from convinced of, but if the results of those studies were repeated then that would be the most proximal explanation in my book, not an additional entity that cannot be investigated--and they can be studied by science in this fashion then they would no longer be supernatural.
Psychic phenomena is by definition, supernatural. Repeatable or not. I believe there were over 900 subjects in that study. What you're essentially saying here is that psychic phenomena (by definition, supernatural) is repeatable (which it was through many subjects of that study and several other studies), and we're able to study it (which we are) then it is no longer supernatural? I'm not sure I understand this line of reasoning. It sounds like an a priori rejection of the supernatural, which is fine. Just so we know where we're coming from.

I can only speculate on what could produce such phenomenon, but if they can be observed and studied by science, then that's a game changer.
As I said, an a priori rejection of the supernatural. They're already being observed and studied by science. You said if there were even a single shred of evidence of the supernatural, you would leave the door open. It is clearly not open. There can be no supernatural in your opinion evidenced by the fact that you seem to go so far as to say that if a supernatural event were repeatable, it's natural.
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Jun 21, 2008, 10:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
You might think differently if you actually had to live surrounded by Zeus worshippers.
I'm surprised by the number of evangelicals that seem to envelope you. This all sounds a little dramatic to me. Almost emo. I'm just sayin'.
ebuddy
     
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Jun 21, 2008, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I had cited a study on the positive affects of prayer. You saw a "popularity contest" in the conclusion and questioned the benevolence of God in it. Specifically, my God per your question to me. I challenged this on the logical foundation of perspective. What is benevolence if you lack the opposite with which to compare? What is freewill (taught in my doctrine of faith) or the value of obedience if one is not required to act on it? (prayer)


Psychic phenomena is by definition, supernatural. Repeatable or not. I believe there were over 900 subjects in that study. What you're essentially saying here is that psychic phenomena (by definition, supernatural) is repeatable (which it was through many subjects of that study and several other studies), and we're able to study it (which we are) then it is no longer supernatural? I'm not sure I understand this line of reasoning. It sounds like an a priori rejection of the supernatural, which is fine. Just so we know where we're coming from.


As I said, an a priori rejection of the supernatural. They're already being observed and studied by science. You said if there were even a single shred of evidence of the supernatural, you would leave the door open. It is clearly not open. There can be no supernatural in your opinion evidenced by the fact that you seem to go so far as to say that if a supernatural event were repeatable, it's natural.
I guess we're running afoul of a definitional tension here. Let me sort of amend here to clarify: Yes, if there's any proof of *what I would currently refer to as* supernatural then I'm certainly open to it. Take, for example, my willingness to entertain the possibility of psychic phenomenon as an explanation of the results of this study (sorry, but I still find the introduction of an entity answering prayers to be too far a stretch, particularly since despite your own theological rationalization, I can't reconcile that sort of behavior with an omniscient and benevolent god). Now I haven't had a chance to go back and read through the link you provided, but I remember reading about such a study in the past. If it's the same one, then as I remember it the effect was so small as to be inconclusive; though interesting, it was nothing like the documentation of the placebo effect, which I'm thinking could be part of the same dynamic if the research you cite holds up.

So that evidence to which I would be "open" takes to two possible forms. One, I could personally experience something that, while not replicable and verifiable to the world at large and hence subject to science, caused me to reevaluate my conclusions about the nature of the "supernatural." Two, there could be some sort of scientific evidence documenting what I'd previously considered "supernatural." The latter would, though, literally mean that whatever phenomenon were then subject to scientific inquiry were no longer, strictly speaking, supernatural--by definition.

So yes, my assumption--and it's very much a posteriori--is that the supernatural is purely mythical. There are two ways that view can change. What I'd previously considered supernatural could be shown to actually be part of the natural, which would make me less confident in that assumption or I could personally experience something supernatural, by which that assumption could be shattered.

I'll read that link through at my earliest opportunity. I should've already, and I should've before replying, but I wanted to clarify my point of view and now I have to bathe the kids. See ya.
     
Helmling  (op)
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Jun 21, 2008, 10:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I'm surprised by the number of evangelicals that seem to envelope you. This all sounds a little dramatic to me. Almost emo. I'm just sayin'.
Perhaps if I dropped you off in a Muslim country you'd understand the feeling, though I think most predominantly Muslim countries would be considerably less comfortable for either of us.

Either way, I was hoping to clarify your answer to my original question that got buried in the thread someways back:

Were you saying that the need for faith validates the existence of the object of faith?
     
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Jun 21, 2008, 10:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I must say my thinking has been enlivened over the last 24 hours just considering the possibilities of what I thought to be newer research into this phenomenon than what I'd already read on this subject. All this time I didn't realize the link you posted was only an abstract. Unfortunately, when I googled to find out more, this is what I found about more comprehensive and recent studies:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

It would appear there's no phenomenon at all. Believe me, I'm as disappointed as you.
     
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Jun 21, 2008, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak View Post
I'd be willing to bet that the Bible is the world's top recommended life guide.
Because Christianity has a plurality of the world's population, not because so many people have read it all the way through and come out the better for it. (I'm not saying that people haven't, I'm just saying that isn't the reason for the Bible's popularity.)

Originally Posted by spacefreak View Post
"Increasingly dissatisfied".... do you have some large survey numbers, and what are the variables? I ask because I have seen that people are "increasingly dissatisfied" with Apple products, yet any objective analysis of the numbers indicates exactly the opposite.
Well, it's gotten to the point where Islam looks poised to take its position. Coincidentally, these are probably the two most strongly missionary religions out there. One might imagine that their popularity has more to do with marketing than the fact that they are actually that much better than any other religion or philosophy.
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Jun 21, 2008, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Are you really asking "Why should we believe the God of Abraham, the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob exists?"

For me, one of the main reasons is prophecy.

Isaiah 43:5 - "From the east I will bring your seed, and from the west I will gather you. I will say to the north, "Give," and to the south, "Do not refrain"; bring My sons from afar and My daughters from the end of the earth."

Isaiah 11:12 - "And he shall raise a banner to the nations, and he shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah he shall gather from the four corners of the earth."

Isaiah 27:12 - "And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gather one by one, O children of Israel. And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar will be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem."
You're talking about the modern state of Israel? One of the most secular nations on earth? If that's the Kingdom of YHWH then I'm Santa Claus.
     
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Jun 21, 2008, 04:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
Perhaps if I dropped you off in a Muslim country you'd understand the feeling, though I think most predominantly Muslim countries would be considerably less comfortable for either of us.
Are you comparing your life experience to that of a non-muslim living in a muslim country? Do I read that right?
     
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Jun 21, 2008, 10:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
You're talking about the modern state of Israel? One of the most secular nations on earth? If that's the Kingdom of YHWH then I'm Santa Claus.
Glad to meet you
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Jun 22, 2008, 12:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
Trendy Kabbalism? That's a cup of something alright...
Trendy? You are aware that the western esoteric tradition is thousands of years old, right? I was studying this decades before Madonna decided to change her name and adopt Berg's new-age bastardization. Back on your head.
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ebuddy
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Jun 22, 2008, 08:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
I must say my thinking has been enlivened over the last 24 hours just considering the possibilities of what I thought to be newer research into this phenomenon than what I'd already read on this subject. All this time I didn't realize the link you posted was only an abstract.
It's the abstract of a study on intercessory prayer. This is generally where one would start in referencing scientific data.

Unfortunately, when I googled to find out more, this is what I found about more comprehensive and recent studies: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
It would appear there's no phenomenon at all.
The study I cited in fact showed a positive correlation between intercessory prayer and the patient. The author of the more recent study, Dr. Herbert Benson states; "the findings were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how and whether patients should be told that prayers were being offered for them." He's been working in this field for some time and is not as convinced as you that "there's no phenomenon at all." Another co-author, cardiologist Dr. Charles Bethea said; "One conclusion from this is that the role of awareness of prayer should be studied further".

Having delved into this you might know that there have been many studies conducted on this phenomena. Another such study is a meta analysis of 17 major studies on intercessory prayer and is more comprehensive and recent than yours, published in the March, 2007 journal Research on Social Work Practice. He affirms a positive correlation. What Hodge says about the study you cite; "Some people feel Benson and associates' study from last year, which is the most recent and showed no positive effects for intercessory prayer, is the final word," said Hodge, referring to a 2006 article by Dr. Herbert Benson of the Harvard Medical School that measured the therapeutic effect of intercessory prayer in cardiac bypass patients. "But, this research suggests otherwise. This study enables us to look at the big picture. When the effects of prayer are averaged across all 17 studies, controlling for differences in sample sizes, a net positive effect for the prayer group is produced.
"This is the most thorough and all-inclusive study of its kind on this controversial subject that I am aware of," said Hodge. "It suggests that more research on the topic may be warranted, and that praying for people with psychological or medical problems may help them recover."


In fairness it should be noted that even Hodge admits this does not constitute enough empirical evidence to satisfy the APAs criteria as a sole means of treatment, only that it could be included in a treatment regimen.
ScienceDaily.com
abstract of Hodge's study

It should be further clarified that none of these studies address personal prayer and/or the "placebo affect" which while both are measurable, have not had what is considered "quality" research. We know the phenomena exists and most are in general agreement on the phenomena, but little is known as to why or how. It is as interesting as the study you cite that concludes a possible "performance anxiety" among those who knew they were being prayed for and fared worse.

Believe me, I'm as disappointed as you.
You're disappointed? I'm not. I'm not sure why you'd assume I was. This seems a little disingenuous to me. Shall I accept your apology for this in advance?
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Helmling  (op)
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Jun 22, 2008, 09:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
It's the abstract of a study on intercessory prayer. This is generally where one would start in referencing scientific data.


The study I cited in fact showed a positive correlation between intercessory prayer and the patient. The author of the more recent study, Dr. Herbert Benson states; "the findings were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how and whether patients should be told that prayers were being offered for them." He's been working in this field for some time and is not as convinced as you that "there's no phenomenon at all." Another co-author, cardiologist Dr. Charles Bethea said; "One conclusion from this is that the role of awareness of prayer should be studied further".

Having delved into this you might know that there have been many studies conducted on this phenomena. Another such study is a meta analysis of 17 major studies on intercessory prayer and is more comprehensive and recent than yours, published in the March, 2007 journal Research on Social Work Practice. He affirms a positive correlation. What Hodge says about the study you cite; "Some people feel Benson and associates' study from last year, which is the most recent and showed no positive effects for intercessory prayer, is the final word," said Hodge, referring to a 2006 article by Dr. Herbert Benson of the Harvard Medical School that measured the therapeutic effect of intercessory prayer in cardiac bypass patients. "But, this research suggests otherwise. This study enables us to look at the big picture. When the effects of prayer are averaged across all 17 studies, controlling for differences in sample sizes, a net positive effect for the prayer group is produced.
"This is the most thorough and all-inclusive study of its kind on this controversial subject that I am aware of," said Hodge. "It suggests that more research on the topic may be warranted, and that praying for people with psychological or medical problems may help them recover."


In fairness it should be noted that even Hodge admits this does not constitute enough empirical evidence to satisfy the APAs criteria as a sole means of treatment, only that it could be included in a treatment regimen.
ScienceDaily.com
abstract of Hodge's study

It should be further clarified that none of these studies address personal prayer and/or the "placebo affect" which while both are measurable, have not had what is considered "quality" research. We know the phenomena exists and most are in general agreement on the phenomena, but little is known as to why or how. It is as interesting as the study you cite that concludes a possible "performance anxiety" among those who knew they were being prayed for and fared worse.


You're disappointed? I'm not. I'm not sure why you'd assume I was. This seems a little disingenuous to me. Shall I accept your apology for this in advance?
I'm disappointed because the difference between knowing you're being prayed for and not knowing is the difference between what we already knew about the power of belief for an individual and what would've been exciting evidence suggesting something, well, more.

Sigh.
     
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Jun 22, 2008, 09:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Are you comparing your life experience to that of a non-muslim living in a muslim country? Do I read that right?
Yes, but then I also said that in most predominantly Muslim countries, that one would probably feel a good deal more isolated as a religious minority.
     
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Jun 22, 2008, 09:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Are you really asking "Why should we believe the God of Abraham, the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob exists?"

For me, one of the main reasons is prophecy.

Isaiah 43:5 - "From the east I will bring your seed, and from the west I will gather you. I will say to the north, "Give," and to the south, "Do not refrain"; bring My sons from afar and My daughters from the end of the earth."

Isaiah 11:12 - "And he shall raise a banner to the nations, and he shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah he shall gather from the four corners of the earth."

Isaiah 27:12 - "And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gather one by one, O children of Israel. And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar will be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem."

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Jun 24, 2008, 01:00 AM
 
In my opinion, that circular image neatly expresses the problem that faces religious and philosophical inquiry. When considering the weighty questions of existence, the critical thinker will at some point discover that his line of reasoning is going in circles. The extent to which the circular argument is refined depends on how clever and thorough the person is who expounds it.

Like I said earlier, I have no intention of either trying to prove or disprove the existence of a god. Over the past several thousand years, thousands of other thinkers have already come up with very refined arguments for either position.... each has it merits, each has its flaws, and none are water-tight.

Perhaps something along the lines of the Indian religious tradition of moksha is our only answer to the limitations of human existence, human knowledge, and human reason.
     
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Jun 24, 2008, 02:03 AM
 
Why do we need religion at all? Reason is a baseline that don't require the invention supernatural phenomenon.

I believe in tradition, ritual, compassion, love, justice and morals. I just don't require the supernatural part to justify my existence.

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Jun 24, 2008, 09:39 AM
 
New Pew Study shows 21% of ATHEISTS believe in God.

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/re...y-findings.pdf

12% believe in Heaven and 10% pray once a week.

Is this hedging your bet?
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Jun 24, 2008, 09:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
New Pew Study shows 21% of ATHEISTS believe in God.

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/re...y-findings.pdf

12% believe in Heaven and 10% pray once a week.

Is this hedging your bet?
I really should be surprised, but actually, I'm not. If the PL has taught me one thing, it's that a lot of people have no idea what on earth atheism entails.
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Jun 24, 2008, 12:10 PM
 
I suppose it's possible some of these atheists deny a Creator but not lesser supernatural beings. But more likely, this study is screwed up.
     
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Jun 24, 2008, 12:34 PM
 


There you go. So among "atheists," 6% believe in a personal God, 12% believe in an "impersonal force," and 3% don't know. The rest don't believe in God.

But then, apparently 3% of Catholics also don't believe in God, and among the ones who do, nearly a third think God is an impersonal force.

What I think this proves is that people are going to believe what they want. Everyone believes something a little different... even Biblical literalists are going to disagree on several points because their beliefs ultimately boil down to their own personal convictions anyway, no matter how strongly they profess the literal truth of the Bible.

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Jun 24, 2008, 07:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Are you really asking "Why should we believe the God of Abraham, the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob exists?"

For me, one of the main reasons is prophecy.

Isaiah 43:5 - "From the east I will bring your seed, and from the west I will gather you. I will say to the north, "Give," and to the south, "Do not refrain"; bring My sons from afar and My daughters from the end of the earth."

Isaiah 11:12 - "And he shall raise a banner to the nations, and he shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah he shall gather from the four corners of the earth."

Isaiah 27:12 - "And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gather one by one, O children of Israel. And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar will be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem."


Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
fixinated
Here's one I forgot, a little eschatology for ya'll
Zechariah 12:2-3
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
45/47
     
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Jun 24, 2008, 07:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
... what we already knew about the power of belief for an individual...
What do we know about the power of belief?
ebuddy
     
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Jun 24, 2008, 10:55 PM
 
I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people
Sadly, that sounds pretty accurate.
though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Not so accurate: Israel has many allies.
     
peeb
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Jun 25, 2008, 12:05 PM
 
Chongo, are you serious, or just trolling?
     
Helmling  (op)
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Jun 25, 2008, 11:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post

Out of curiosity, what would it take for you to believe in a god?
Good question. Let's say that tomorrow a super powerful being appeared to me and told me, "I am the Lord, your God!" How should I react?

Should I believe that this being is truthful based simply on its evident power?
     
Helmling  (op)
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Jun 25, 2008, 11:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
What do we know about the power of belief?
That it has demonstrable positive effects for the believer. Case in point, the placebo effect. It's the very reason that the subject in your prayer studies can't be told they're being prayed for. This is not necessarily belief in higher powers or anything like that, though. Cancer patients and other seriously ill patients have had positive success by practicing visualizations of their bodies fighting off their disease.
     
peeb
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Jun 26, 2008, 02:29 AM
 
Placebos work pretty well - it baffles me that they are not prescribed more often.
     
peeb
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Jun 26, 2008, 02:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Even the most ardent atheist will pray when life takes a turn for the worst, grasping for any straw as a last hope.
Bullshit.
     
ebuddy
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Jun 26, 2008, 06:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
Good question. Let's say that tomorrow a super powerful being appeared to me and told me, "I am the Lord, your God!" How should I react?
I suspect your range of reactions could still be defined by your presupposition. In this case, "I'm losing my ever-lovin' mind" or "the TV in the other room must've been on too loud" or "Aliens!", but I don't want to speak for you.

Should I believe that this being is truthful based simply on its evident power?
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances. Are you saying that the above scenario is the only one in which you might consider the possibility of a god?
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
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Jun 26, 2008, 06:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
That it has demonstrable positive effects for the believer. Case in point, the placebo effect. It's the very reason that the subject in your prayer studies can't be told they're being prayed for. This is not necessarily belief in higher powers or anything like that, though. Cancer patients and other seriously ill patients have had positive success by practicing visualizations of their bodies fighting off their disease.
Biofeedback and/or the placebo affect while well-documented are yet to be understood. I agree that it is not necessarily faith exclusively that produces this affect, but the phenomena has yet to show a mechanism for its effectiveness. For now it appears this phenomena remains unexplainable by natural law. Even if one supposes we're the source of this power, there's a shred of evidence for the supernatural.
ebuddy
     
stupendousman
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Jun 26, 2008, 07:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Even if one supposes we're the source of this power, there's a shred of evidence for the supernatural.
Evidence for the supernatural? HERESY!!! How dare you go against the tenets of the Cult of Science?!?! WITCH!!!
     
Chongo
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Jun 26, 2008, 12:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people
Sadly, that sounds pretty accurate.
though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Not so accurate: Israel has many allies.
the US and UK. I'm not so sure about anyone else

Originally Posted by peeb View Post
Chongo, are you serious, or just trolling?
serious as a heart attack
War of Ezekiel 38-39 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
YouTube - Ezekiel 38
45/47
     
peeb
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Jun 26, 2008, 12:13 PM
 
So let me get this right, you really believe that?
     
Chongo
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Jun 26, 2008, 12:21 PM
 
Yes, I do.
The "hook in Gog's jaw", many believe, will be Israel finding oil, throwing the balance of power away from OPEC
45/47
     
peeb
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Jun 26, 2008, 12:23 PM
 
Just so you don't avoid answering the question again, you really believe that?
     
Chongo
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Jun 26, 2008, 12:32 PM
 
Yes, and I stated that (prophecy)is the one of the reasons for my belief in the God of Abraham, The God Issac, and the God of Jacob.
45/47
     
peeb
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Jun 26, 2008, 12:35 PM
 
Wow, you're in worse shape than I though. Thanks.
     
lpkmckenna
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Jun 26, 2008, 02:58 PM
 
Apocalyptic pornography? Grow up.
     
 
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